Faye's Awesome Prosthetic Lore Overhaul

[Faye <3]

Type (e.g. Planet, Faction, System): Lore Expansion

Short Description: A descriptive page that elaborates on prosthetic and augmentation in our setting. Costs, accessibility, and some history.

How will this be reflected on-station?: This submission gives players much more prosthetic and augmentation lore to work with. Characters can discuss prosthetic models, repair-work, or incorporate some of the cons of prosthetics into their characters if they so choose.

Does this addition do anything not achieved by what already exists?: Yes! This submission has a few goals. It gives prosthetics more weight, no longer having them as a 'get it and forget it' direct upgrade over organic limbs / organs, while also leaving plenty of room for player creative freedom. It axes completely the concept of FBPs in a lore-appropriate and interesting manner that allows for IC discussion, touches on vat-grown limbs (something we dearly lack lore on), and establishes the cost and accessibility of augmentation and prosthetic work.

Do you understand that the project may change over time in ways that you may not foresee once it is handed over to the Lore Team? Of course!

Long Description: Click me.

RED denotes content that would be deleted pending this application. GREEN denotes entirely new work. This is my first attempt at a lore submission ever, and I would love to hear your feedback.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Faye <3

[SleepyWolf]

i really enjoy this work and find the FBP stance shit cool. i spoke with faye about her work and brought up changing Karlsson's situation from the 2300's to somewhere closer - maybe so older characters know about him, but younger ones wouldn't. somewhere maybe 40-50 years back seems nice. maybe the turn of 2400? a nice round date.

[Happy_Fox]

The FBP lore makes it so much more believable that there has only ever been 1 instance of it being attempted. +1

[Equairio]

This will definitely lead to some cool conversations ICly, and the way you've written this is very believable. +1

[NG+7 Gael]

+1, the FBP lore is interesting, and everything involving the prosthetics themselves from maintenance to the cost and accessibility section are very good, and help ground something which is already a large part of many characters.

[ryder]

I have curiosities on a couple things, mostly relating to rejection. It's a popular theme wherever we see these sort of things, from "nanomachine rejection syndrome" to "cyberpsychosis", to literal real world examples. It'd be cool to see your thoughts on tissue and cellular rejection of vat grown limbs, success rates, etc., even in the ultra-wealthy. ADS has me curious as well. I think when discussing these sort of things it can be a good idea to put down some of the precise definitions of psychosis and disassociation. There's a pretty decent example in the Cyberpunk RED playbook that asks players to consider precisely what this means:

Quote

In the sort of setting we have, there's going to be an expectation that people play this out appropriately and consciously. The more it's detailed, the easier it might be for others to play it out, and recall the fact that it's likely something that will effect how they characterize their roleplay.

That being said, I also have curiosities about FBPs and the legality of these initial experiments. Were the initial tests really made known to the public eye? Maybe they were leaked? Maybe the Karlsson case was the only PR disaster that they made an effort to show to the public? Those are just thoughts I have.

Additionally, knowing some more about the extent of ADS and prosthetic rejection would be interesting: Maybe some lore about a case study to see just how far the body can be pushed? 90% metal to 10% meat? 80/20? Where's the usual cutoff where the person is totally depersonalized / made catatonic? Just some thoughts.

I'd also think it'd be cool to know some of your thoughts on prosthetic innovation, to enable more creativity with examples, I suppose. For example: clearly defining certain connections, like the neural/nervous interfacing from body to prosthetic. Has someone invented "hot swap sockets" for limb prosthesis? Can someone with two augmented eyes view virtual / augmented reality through those eyes alone? What sort of onboard interfaces are there for the nervous system to communicate with these things? It doesn't all have to be scientific, of course, because all of this is reasonable suspension of disbelief; it's just about illustrating the points from which someone's own natural connections can be made. I just know I personally would like to see much more on actual 'ware, it's functions, so on and so forth.

But anyways!

Cool as fuck. +1 Thanks, Faye.

[Connorjg1]

I was one of the first people to look at the document before it was published. I very much stand by this being cool. 

 

I've got some comments/suggestions but Faye is already aware of them relating to expanding on individual prosthetics.

 

+1

Edited November 26, 2021 by Connorjg1

[ImmortalRedshirt]

After getting some things cleared up, I'm fairly positive on this app, though I do still have a lingering concern where the common opinion of the playerbase shifts towards looking down on any character that doesn't utilize ADS to its full extent, as I feel enforcing it may lead to some unpleasant implications in addition to the "cybernetics making you crazy" trope being a fairly poor one ever since it was codified in Cyberpunk 2020. That said, I do appreciate that it, in its current state, it isn't compulsory, and the rest of the app answers a lot of questions while not stepping too much on the what others have already pieced together, in addition to the explanation of why FBPs aren't a thing.

All in all, despite my worries about a trend that may occur, I give this a +1.

[ryder]

15 minutes ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

That said, I do appreciate that it, in its current state, it isn't compulsory,

Ditto. It can also be expressed in other ways, if at all, on a case by case basis.

[Faye <3]

38 minutes ago, ryder said:

ADS has me curious as well. I think when discussing these sort of things it can be a good idea to put down some of the precise definitions of psychosis and disassociation. There's a pretty decent example in the Cyberpunk RED playbook that asks players to consider precisely what this means:

17 minutes ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

some unpleasant implications in addition to the "cybernetics making you crazy" trope being a fairly poor one ever since it was codified in Cyberpunk 2020.

My goal with the implantation of ADS is to give players an opt-in risk to play with in their modded characters. The biggest issue with prosthetics at the moment is that they are VERY widespread in the community, and have so little lore despite how prolific they are. I think that it is unfair to write ADS as a gotcha! now your modded character has a mental illness! sort of thing, and I would also want to avoid any cybernetics make you CRAAAAAAAZY AND VIOLENT tropes a la Cyberpunk 2020, which I kind of found insulting in their portrayal. The symptoms of ADS are kept broad intentionally, with emphasis that not everyone experiences it when getting modifications so that people can portray it how they like best. However, if people do want more examples and symptoms given, I am happy to provide.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Faye <3

[Faye <3]

38 minutes ago, ryder said:

That being said, I also have curiosities about FBPs and the legality of these initial experiments. Were the initial tests really made known to the public eye? Maybe they were leaked? Maybe the Karlsson case was the only PR disaster that they made an effort to show to the public? Those are just thoughts I have.

I imagine that prior FBP experiment were done in the usual corporate quasi-legality grey area, likely on convicts and other "undesirables" so that there wasn't much outcry on it. The Karlsson case in particular was the straw that broke the camel's back due to Karlssons fame and wealth, and the amount of media attention focused on it.

38 minutes ago, ryder said:

Additionally, knowing some more about the extent of ADS and prosthetic rejection would be interesting: Maybe some lore about a case study to see just how far the body can be pushed? 90% metal to 10% meat? 80/20? Where's the usual cutoff where the person is totally depersonalized / made catatonic? Just some thoughts.

I think keeping away from set percentages or ratios is best. I think that the cut-off is likely trying to replace the chest and making large-scale modifications to the skull, with the caveat that not everyone can even withstand modifications to that point.

39 minutes ago, ryder said:

I'd also think it'd be cool to know some of your thoughts on prosthetic innovation

I think all of this can safely be left to player headcanon, though I feel the same as prior. If people like it enough, im not against writing it.

 

[Triogenix]

My only non-positive feedback revolves around "Many corporations offer exciting sign-on bonuses or rewards for good performance in form of exclusive, proprietary modifications. These offers, while seemingly benevolent, hide inherent risk that leads many to refuse them altogether. Many employees do not own the augmentations, and poor performance or quitting can lead to forcible repossession. This practice is especially common in the Eridani federation, particularly with the Private Military Companies."

This seems to be extremely similar to what Zeng-Hu does with it's employees, with the main difference I see is that there is not a forced culture around the PMCs and Eridani to do this, unlike Zeng-Hu. While it is an interesting idea and one that I find very good, I think that since we already have something very similar in our setting for one company, it takes a lot of the uniqueness away from said company when it's changed to be a near universal thing, or added on to other companies/parts of companies.(However, I do think it kinda fits better with the corporate dominated Eridani then Zeng-Hu, but nevertheless)

Beyond that this seems to be very well written and has interesting and well thought out ideas that I'd like to see added, my favorite being the things about FBPs others have mentioned in their posts.

[Faye <3]

1 minute ago, Triogenix said:

This seems to be extremely similar to what Zeng-Hu does with it's employees, with the main difference I see is that there is not a forced culture around the PMCs and Eridani to do this, unlike Zeng-Hu. While

I think this is fair feedback! I had thought that Zeng-Hu would be unique in their extremity in such matters, whereas other corporations probably just send debt collectors to err, collect. Do you have any ideas as to changing this section to be more distinct?

[Triogenix]

2 minutes ago, Faye &lt;3 said:

I think this is fair feedback! I had thought that Zeng-Hu would be unique in their extremity in such matters, whereas other corporations probably just send debt collectors to err, collect. Do you have any ideas as to changing this section to be more distinct?

I think to make it more distinct is difficult, due to how as of now no other company really has the proprietary augments like Zeng-hu has, but the best way I see is to have other non-zeng megacorps like Zavod or NT not really do this much, instead only doing it for when an employee gets injured, and maybe having whether of not they have to pay based on their insurance plan. For EPMCs and Eridani, I would make it more specific to companies based out of Zeng-Hu owned areas, or citizens who might work in these areas even if not for Zeng directly. To me instead of having be very similar for everyone, it shows the effects megacorps have on local populations where they hold all the pwoer, adding a little more depth to Eridani and the EPMCs, if that makes sense.

[Faye <3]

first community feedback edit: 

fudged the date on the sven karlsson incident

elaborated on company insurance plans, along with edited the the part about prosthetic sign-on bonuses a bit.

[ryder]

3 hours ago, Triogenix said:

but the best way I see is to have other non-zeng megacorps like Zavod or NT not really do this much

I think this is a missed opportunity to really strengthen the employee care of Hephaestus. Zavod isn't going to let you keep your combat augs; those are getting laundered as soon as you leave your contact, and you probably know it! NT? I can see NT not caring. But I think that Heph enabling their employees more with these things would be a stronger point. Zeng-Hu, Idris, Zavod, EPMC; these are all corps I can see laundering out augs the second you leave, unless on extremely good terms, and only if those augs are appropriate for civilian use. (Of course, Idris is big evil and now you just owe them, including your body parts! Whoa!) Just some thoughts.

[Lucaken]

I have three main issues with this submission, though I find the overall idea of creating a more solid background for prosthetics a good initiative. So, unless I mention otherwise, I think everything here is good and viable to be put through - especially ADS.

Firstly, while the idea of FBS is a worthy one - in that it can be sometimes good to put an upper limit to how far races can augment themselves - it is quite contradictory to wetware Cyborgs and the existance of Man-Machine Interfaces (MMIs). The current revision suggests that it is scientifically impossible to augment a person to that degree...despite both the lore and in-game mechanics saying otherwise. Unless I am completely misunderstanding this part of your proposal, I don't know how this wasn't noticed by other readers. The current blurb for Cyborgs on the Synthetics page even says how particularly wealthy individuals can and have managed to replace their bodies without the restrictions of cyborgification laws. My suggestion would be to change the wording that implies it is a hard limit (because the current lore says it is not at all), and perhaps have Karlsson survive his procedure with some noted psychological damage. This would also keep his story in-line with current lore (see: Notable Synthetics).

Secondly, I find the general idea of the 'corporate-given prosthethics as a bonus' a bit disheartening to see, because it is essentially word-for-word what N4NL, the EPMC, has as its unique pull. I understand that corporations wouldn't be above that kind of thing, but to me, it makes more sense for a megacorporation to simply give you a bonus paycheck, as the current version implies it is - 1. fairly cheap for them to install such high-level prosthethics and 2. that they are outright preferred over organic models. That is a level of quality and availability that I think you could only see in Eridani, and sticking Zheng-Hu on it steals a bit of uniqueness from the faction in general. You posted above that you changed the wording on these sections, but I'm not sure if the link was updated - this comment is based off the version I currently have when viewing the file.

Lastly, and on a more general tone as well, the non-human prosthethics section feels more than a little poor. I get that it's mainly a way to get readers into other pages on the wiki, but it feels like a lost opportunity to expand on their usage - especially Diona nymph-limbs. I recommend collaborating with those writers if possible.

All in all, though, great work!

[Faye <3]

3 hours ago, Lucaken said:

Firstly, while the idea of FBS is a worthy one - in that it can be sometimes good to put an upper limit to how far races can augment themselves - it is quite contradictory to wetware Cyborgs and the existance of Man-Machine Interfaces (MMIs).

Stationbounds / borgs have a few key differences from FBPs. A FBP is like Raiden from MGS, or Motoko from Ghost in the Shell, while borgs are the stationbounds and sometimes the AIs we see every round. To create a borg, the victim's brain is removed and effectively lobotomized by the MMI Interface. The brain is then used to power the borg or AI's systems. The person prior is effectively dead and gone, their identity destroyed and their brain used as nothing more than a processor.

A FBP is someone who has been augmented more and more until almost all - or all - of their body is prosthetic and cyberware. The brain is still there, and maybe some fleshy bits like Raiden, but their bodies are entirely prosthetic. Their brain is never removed, and they are never lobotomized like borgs. Additionally, a borg is simple enough to be lawed. A FBP, like IPCs, would not be able to. These differences make them more than distinct enough for one to be impossible in my opinion. 

3 hours ago, Lucaken said:

Synthetics page even says how particularly wealthy individuals can and have managed to replace their bodies without the restrictions of cyborgification laws.

This will be added to my document to be deleted - I must've missed it on the first look over.

3 hours ago, Lucaken said:

That is a level of quality and availability that I think you could only see in Eridani, and sticking Zheng-Hu on it steals a bit of uniqueness from the faction in genera

Zeng-Hu and Eridani in that piece because if you view Zeng-Hu's lore, there's an entire section dedicated to their prosthetics, they're often given to workers and forcibly reclaimed.  I do not think that the concept of a 'megacorporation will give you prosthetics for good performance, with the cinch that they still own them as insurance you'll stay in the job' is specific enough to have two people in the entire setting practice it. Zeng-Hu and Eridani are specifically referenced as noteworthy practitioners of this concept.

 

3 hours ago, Lucaken said:

Lastly, and on a more general tone as well, the non-human prosthethics section feels more than a little poor. I get that it's mainly a way to get readers into other pages on the wiki, but it feels like a lost opportunity to expand on their usage - especially Diona nymph-limbs. I recommend collaborating with those writers if possible.

I am not opposed to doing this, stay tuned.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Faye <3

[Faye <3]

Second update! Greatly expanded on the 'prosthetics outside human space' edit (nymph-limbs, PRA teslatech, autakh) and got relevant lore-team approval for each addition. I found a new paragraph that needs to be deleted, and made some small edits based on DM conversation's feedback from Lucaken. Everything looks good for reviewal.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Faye <3

[Caelphon]

This application is considered accepted, and will be expanded and editted upon by the Lore Team. Thank you for your contribution.