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Topic of the Day: Superpowers


Caelphon

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Posted

Who do you think are our "Superpowers" in the Orion Spur, and how do they impact our setting? What do you think should be done to make these "Superpowers" more prominent? 

Technologically, I think:

1. Jargon Federation

2. Serene Republic of Elyra

3. Republic of Biesel 

Militarily, I think: 

1. Solarian Alliance

2. Centralised Coalition of Colonies

/

2. Jargon Federation

3. Serene Republic of Elyra.

Economically, I think: 

1. Republic of Biesel

2. Coalition of Colonies

3. Jargon Federation

Posted (edited)

Another great Topic of the Day. I only have a few questions:

  1. I am truthfully skeptical to see Biesel as the third most technological faction within the Spur. Why? I've never seen much on the wiki/lore that suggests so, and out of all the factions in the Aurora-verse it seems like the most average in terms of technological development (for a sci-fi nation). Why not replace it with the Eridani Corporate Federation, instead? It is known that Corporations releases bleeding-edge tech on the market, for its citizens, and its something rather unique to them.
  2. There's always a strong correlation between superpowers and Weapons of Mass Destruction. We know that NanoTrasen has bluespace artillery and someting about a mass-driver cannon that obliterated a Solarian fleet. Does the Sol Alliance have any? What about the Jargon Federation? And the Coalition of Colonies? What do the rest of the Spur think about WMDs?
Edited by OffRoad99
Posted
  On 14/12/2021 at 12:13, OffRoad99 said:

Another great Topic of the Day. I only have a few questions:

  1. I am truthfully skeptical to see Biesel as the third most technological faction within the Spur. Why? I've never seen much on the wiki/lore that suggests so, and out of all the factions in the Aurora-verse it seems like the most average in terms of technological development (for a sci-fi nation). Why not replace it with the Eridani Corporate Federation, instead? It is known that Corporations releases bleeding-edge tech on the market, for its citizens, and its something rather unique to them.
  2. There's always a strong correlation between superpowers and Weapons of Mass Destruction. We know that NanoTrasen has bluespace artillery and someting about a mass-driver cannon that obliterated a Solarian fleet. Does the Sol Alliance have any? What about the Jargon Federation? And the Coalition of Colonies? What do the rest of the Spur think about WMDs?
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This is mostly my own opinion, so don't take it as canon! 

Posted
  On 14/12/2021 at 12:20, Caelphon said:

This is mostly my own opinion, so don't take it as canon! 

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Yeye, I'm ok with that! Just wished to know what made you consider listing Biesel as the third most technological faction in the Spur :D

Posted

It mostly is derived from three things;

Biesel has the highest number of Skrell outside the Jargon Federation within its borders, usually they have an apititude for Sciences. This makes me believe they are ahead of the curve regarding a few things, amplified by the presence of the megacorporations which have far more freedom to exploit, advanced and innovate within the Republic of Biesel than anywhere else within the entire Orion Spur. 

Also, the Republic of Biesel has some of the most advanced biodomes (New Gibson) within the Orion Spur. They house millions of people, and aren't really seen anywhere else. 

Posted (edited)

IMO Elyra has a bit more economic power than the CoC maybe due to their absolute ton of phoron (even if they're not sharing it). I also think we should see more of our 'superpowers' than just Sol. There are tons of Solarian-involved arcs, but how many CoC or Elyran ones?

Edited by Faye <3
Posted
  On 14/12/2021 at 12:58, Faye <3 said:

IMO Elyra has a bit more economic power than the CoC maybe due to their absolute ton of phoron (even if they're not sharing it). I also think we should see more of our 'superpowers' than just Sol. There are tons of Solarian-involved arcs, but how many CoC or Elyran ones?

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Elyra is like RL Switzerland, isn't it? There could be Hell raging a war outside of their borders but they wouldn't do anything to help their neighbours. They're neutral to the core.
I agree with the Coalitions of Colonies, those guys deserve some of the spotlight.

Posted (edited)
  On 14/12/2021 at 13:05, OffRoad99 said:

Elyra is like RL Switzerland, isn't it? There could be Hell raging a war outside of their borders but they wouldn't do anything to help their neighbours. They're neutral to the core.
I agree with the Coalitions of Colonies, those guys deserve some of the spotlight.

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Elyra has helped out Biesel and the CoC in the past. During the 35th invasion they sent part of their navy and stuff. My issue is more that Elyra has potentially the most phoron in the spur during a scarcity, and very little is done with this!

Edited by Faye <3
Posted
  On 14/12/2021 at 13:09, Faye <3 said:

Elyra has helped out Biesel and the CoC in the past. During the 35th invasion they sent part of their navy and stuff. My issue is more that Elyra has potentially the most phoron in the spur during a scarcity, and very little is done with this!

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In all fairness, I feel it's important to consider that while Elyra has access to a very crucial and rare resource, the Coalition covers, like, half of human space and is currently the largest and most populous human nation that isn't actively undergoing a warlord period. Even if a fair number of their worlds are pretty impoverished, that's still a hell of a lot of people to market to and contribute to the galactic economy. 

Posted (edited)
  On 14/12/2021 at 13:21, stev said:

In all fairness, I feel it's important to consider that while Elyra has access to a very crucial and rare resource, the Coalition covers, like, half of human space and is currently the largest and most populous human nation that isn't actively undergoing a warlord period. Even if a fair number of their worlds are pretty impoverished, that's still a hell of a lot of people to market to and contribute to the galactic economy. 

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The difference is, what space Elyra does have, it's all used to further the economy because it is drowning in phoron deposits. The Coalition's size does not represent it's economical strength, because most of its worlds are not like Vysoka and Himeo (economical outstanders due to abundant resources). Most of it is scrappy frontier worlds that join merely for the purpose of defence, as the Frontier Alliance Defence Pact doesn't come with any trade agreements or such - it is mostly a military alliance, and it should be treated as such. The 'government' of the Coalition can't even enforce any standards because of it's hands-off policy. No matter how many people are there, they're not going to measure up to a powerhouse like Elyra, because not nearly every colony is actually contributing. So I agree with Elyra being higher economically - it's a bit funny it's not even on the chart. I would put it second, if not first.

Edited by Lucaken
Posted

When I say economic, I refer to their gross domestic product. From what I see from Elyra, they are very isolationist. They trade sparingly, and would rather be self-sufficient than rely on imports and whatnot. Elyra has restricted / cut off their supply of Phoron to the rest of the Orion Spur, so they are receiving practically zero revenue for this, unless someone jumps through hoops and loops to get a shipment through shell companies and whatever.  

Coalition of Colonies has the largest amount of planets, barring the Jargon Federation, within the Orion Spur. These all devote a portion of their resources to the internal economy of the Coalition of Colonies, which in turn is usually traded to the Coalition's economic partners (Republic of Biesel). While it may not be spelt out on the wiki, they have all agreed to be under the banner of the Coalition instead of independently, so it implies there must be some signing agreements that include providing a portion of their resources to the betterment of the Coalition. It may not be a very centralized force, but there is a degree of authority in which they have all signed to obey.  Also, the Republic of Biesel and the Coalition of Colonies just recently agreed to decrease tarrifs on imports and exports, so they're making even more money than before in an attempt to keep the impending economic recession at bay.

  Reveal hidden contents

Above is an economic cycle. Right now, the entire Orion Spur is within this red segment. Some are further up, some are further down. I'd say Elyra is further up, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are stronger economically. Despite their isolationist tendencies, they are just as impacted by the interstellar trading market as the rest of the nations within the Orion Spur, however, I do believe they'll be in their economic recession / depression much longer than the other nations due to this isolationist tendenices and other contributing factors (see: 1930s America). 

The Republic of Biesel easily trumps Elyra economically, in almost every regard. They have the most potential to expand their economy, as well as to keep it alive. They have the support of the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate, and the backing of the entire Orion Spur who rely on their bluespace gates to keep commerce flowing. They rightfully deserve the 1st place position as economic hegemon. 

Posted
  On 14/12/2021 at 14:22, Caelphon said:

Coalition of Colonies has the largest amount of planets, barring the Jargon Federation, within the Orion Spur. These all devote a portion of their resources to the internal economy of the Coalition of Colonies, which in turn is usually traded to the Coalition's economic partners (Republic of Biesel). While it may not be spelt out on the wiki, they have all agreed to be under the banner of the Coalition instead of independently, so it implies there must be some signing agreements that include providing a portion of their resources to the betterment of the Coalition. It may not be a very centralized force, but there is a degree of authority in which they have all signed to obey.

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This is quite literally all headcanon and has very little basis within the current lore. They're not banded together as a coalition because of the economic benefit - their single unifying force is the defense treaty they all signed years ago to ensure independence politically. There is no authority to 'obey' because, in the description's current state, Greentree cares very little what each colony does, and makes a point not to interfere. You do not get a trade superpower without there being some controlling factor - the major planets win very little by keeping the small colonies alive, who mind you, are rapidly seperating from the wider Coalition since 2458 (see: Timeline of Humanity).

Some of what you say could be true if this was written down, and indeed the Coalition does need an update in this regard (some of it is already there to review!), but we gain very little by guessing at something that's not there. The same could be said of Elyra - I think the only reason why anyone could claim they are a wholly isolationist nation that does no trade at all is because not much is written on their page. In practice I'd say that's completely false, but again, pure headcanon from me as well there.

Posted

I wouldn't refer to it as headcanon, considering its implied on the wiki page.

  Quote

The overarching government of the Coalition is a confederation held together by the Frontier Alliance Defense Pact, a treaty which ensures that all members will come to the aid of the other in a case of invasion or in more recent times, to defend against piracy. It is headed by the Chief Representative, the representative of whatever planet is voted as the capital of the Coalition. The current Chief Representative is Reilly Sianne of Xanu Prime. The government of each individual entity within the Alliance varies dramatically, from republics to monarchies to communist parties, but the entities all agree to have representatives meet on the capital planet. This bi-annual meeting, known as the Representative Summit, forms the leadership of the Coalition of Colonies. The Representative Summit is a bicameral legislature, made up of by the House of Members and the House of Observers. The House of Members is formed of the core systems of the Coalition, and is where legislation can be proposed. The House of Observers is formed of representatives from affiliated frontier systems. While the House of Members currently has 357 members, because of the state of the wild frontier attendance for the Observer house can range from as few as fifty up to five hundred. Each system receives one representative. There is only one written rule to the Summit - no violence may take place in the chambers. All other rules and regulations are merely agreed upon traditions, solidified over the Coalition's history. The Coalition of Colonies does not care how each system governs themselves, they only ask that each system respect one another and honor the pacts during the time of a crisis.

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This is the overview of the Coalition of Colonies. 

1. There is a Chief Represenative. Who pays them? The government. Who is the government made of? Member planets. 

2. Legislation is passed by represenatives of the Coalition of Colonies' members, and those affiliated with it. This implies that there is already a "constitution" of sorts that exists between the member states that exists in tandem with planetary laws. This implies that there exists legislation that allows / restricts some things to occur. So ... what happens when a planet doesn't comply with legislation? There needs to be some kind of unified legal system which can push punitive actions to those that do not comply. Who pays for these things to be carried out? The government. Who is the government made of? Member planets. 

Ultimately, it isn't spelled out and is fairly hidden, but it is obvious when you're exposed to the belly of the "deep lore" of the Coalition that there needs to be some kind of overarching economy which they all contribute to, otherwise the Coalition would collapse quite quickly if the only thing holding them together was a Defense Pact, which hasn't seen usage in almost 3 centuries. 

Posted (edited)

You're doing so much 'implying' with the lore of a major faction that it's hard to call it passable headcanon - which is my main issue with most headcanons, really. With how the Coalition's page currently is, you can imply just about everything. Case and point, just because there is a Chief Representitive, does not automatically mean there is a heavy-handed constitution that every single colony signs, and which moderates the likely hilariously chaotic market of the Frontier. You are implying one thing from an already implicit fact - at a certain point, we're literally just making things up to justify your own point. Let's not get started on whatever the """deep lore""" means, either, because it could be anything.

And to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with what you are proposing - it's funny, even, because much of what you are claiming here, I have written word-for-word a month ago in my canonization application. The bigger issue is that you cannot base your objective ranking of superpowers on a personal assumption of a vaguely-written paragraph. Once you go this far with headcanon, it's hard to take it seriously - even moreso coming from a Loremaster.

Edited by Lucaken
Posted

I suppose, and points may be proved and disproved in the future when the Coalition is updated. Additionally, I havn't read your application, I've been quite busy with other lore stufftm. Seems we have similar foundations for where the Coalition should head, but different opinions on where it branches. 

Posted (edited)

I think while in the midst of the scarcity, the sole superpower, in the sense it is a nation no others can really compete with and can exert it's will onto other smaller nations, is the Jargon Federation. While Sol is in the limbo of a military junta with what is as of now, a fleet undergoing overhaul to be useful for projecting power with no indication or idea of how much of the work is completed, it cannot really exert it's will or policy beyond it's controlled systems without outside assistance from those within the systems. The same is true of Biesel, currently focused on pacifying the CRZ and other the yoke of mega corporations. The CoC is, as of now, a fragmented state with an unclear governmental structure, but does manage to spread it's influence outside of it's borders(seen by the support some member-states give to the League of Anti-Corporate systems) However, due to their fragmented nature they cannot hope to stand up to the Jargon Federation, which controls an amount equal to around 2/3rds of the CoCs territory under tight rule with much more impressive technology. Elyra could be a contender, with their massive amount of phoron, however due to their isolation and(as of now) lack of exportation at a high level, they cannot really influence anyone else with their deposits. And a majority of other alien factions/dominia are still working on influencing their own home planets, and are (generally) very far behind the federation.

Therefore, the Federation is the only nation in lore I can consider to be a superpower in the sense of the definition: "a very powerful and influential nation".

Edited by Triogenix
clarified what I meant by useful for the Sol fleet
Posted

Technologically, I'd say Jargon, Elyra and then Biesel.

Militarily, Sol, Jargon, Elyra.

Economically, Biesel, Elyra and then Sol.

I don't think it's fair to say the CoC has a strong economy when it's basically Xanu and a bunch of allies with sparse populations. Sol is much more centralized, owns Earth (which is extremely densely populated and iirc home to quite a few megacorps), New Hai Phong and has the ECF as a soft protectorate.

The ECF isn't a superpower in my opinion. They can't do fuck all in the grand scheme of things.

Posted (edited)
  Quote

1. Biesel 2. Sol & Eridani 3. Elyra 4. CoC (mostly due to decentralised nature) 5. Dominia

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To quote Lain from the lore discord regarding economic strength. This doesn't include Jargon, but I can only assume it to be on the upper end of the spectrum.

I feel like he said something regarding military strength, too, but I can't find it. My belief is that militarily, it goes:
1. Sol 2. Coalition (Defensively) 3. Elyra 4. Coalition (Offensively) 5. Dominia 6. Tau Ceti

Technologically, it's hard to say. Jargon is considerably more advanced than Humanity, but I see Humanity as generally being neck and neck, with the exception of the Coalition (which varies greatly), and Dominia (which was very isolated).

Once again, Jargon would be on the upper end of things.

As far as superpowers are concerned, a superpower is defined as: 

  Quote

A superpower is a state with a dominant position characterized by its extensive ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale. This is done through the combined means of economic, military, technological, political and cultural strength as well as diplomatic and soft power influence.

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As such, currently the only thing coming close to being a superpower is Jargon. However, Jargon lacks cultural influence in other stellar states, and diplomatically is very isolationist, which compromises its ability to be considered a true superpower, to a degree. Nonetheless, since Sol collapsed, no Human power could be considered a true superpower. It is instead a game of great powers and regional powers.

I once saw someone on the lore team (not human lore) say that the SCC was the most powerful Human entity in the setting, which could be true economically - but as an alliance of megacorporations, it has immense soft power, but little hard power. That is why its marriage with Biesel is important: they need the legitimacy of Biesel to project hard power.

Edited by DanseMacabre
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