[Resolved] Player Complaint - Birdie & Dekser

[goolie]

BYOND Key: goolies
Player Byond Key: lordpwner & dekser
Staff Involved: WickedCybs (Sophie & ReadThisNamePlz told to post and handling other complaint)
Reason for complaint:
I'm writing this based on the behaviour of both @LordPwner and @DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun leading up to this previous complaint posted here at the bottom of this thread. I really don't appreciate the way they've both gone about insinuating their various accusations against me, and I think there's some OOC thoughts or malice behind it rather than them posting it to bring light to any rules being broken. The screenshots they've posted haven't been shown to staff once and were for some reason, all piled in at once on discord to an admin when they were both being struck for bringing up sexual harassment ICly.

Most of the images that have been posted are just random arguments I've had with the character and if anything, should be handled in an IC sense in the relay or not even handled at all. They don't show any evidence of harassment, sexual harassment, homophobic jokes, being a "meme" character or favouritism from Cybs like what they've accused me of. I take issue with the fact that these screenshots have been silently collected without one word to staff, a report, or even either of them coming to talk to me directly and I think that they were posted out of spite or malice. A lot of the screenshots are also taken out of context in the thread and twisted in a way to support their accusation of harassment when there is none.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by ReadThisNamePlz

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

Once again, I can't speak for LordPwner but this is from me.

1 hour ago, goolie said:

I really don't appreciate the way they've both gone about insinuating their various accusations against me, and I think there's some OOC thoughts or malice behind it rather than them posting it to bring light to any rules being broken.

However it may seem I've insinuated anything, I apologize and I meant nothing on an OOC level toward you, anything and everything I've said about an opinion from my side toward Keala, or regarding Kealas behavior has been between Keala and Sveta and NOTHING else. I have never purposefully accused you, as a player of anything.

 

1 hour ago, goolie said:

The screenshots they've posted haven't been shown to staff once and were for some reason, all piled in at once on discord to an admin when they were both being struck for bringing up sexual harassment ICly.

1: If you mean the weeks worth of Keala trolling, none of that really warranted any Admin action in my perspective, I think it was what it was, trolling. I only brought it to the attention of the Admins in reference of why Sveta had this opinion of Keala, it was not meant to be a way to call you or Keala out.

2: I think I've said it enough times, nobody said anybody was sexually harassing anyone. There is a very distinct line between sexual harassment and harassment. Sveta accused Keala of harassment.

 

1 hour ago, goolie said:

Most of the images that have been posted are just random arguments I've had with the character and if anything, should be handled in an IC sense in the relay or not even handled at all.

Read: I only brought it to the attention of the Admins in reference of why Sveta had this opinion of Keala

 

1 hour ago, goolie said:

They don't show any evidence of harassment, sexual harassment, homophobic jokes, being a "meme" character or favouritism from Cybs like what they've accused me of.

1: They show plenty of evidence of Keala harassing other crew, by definition. He was insulting and offending them beyond being asked to stop. This does not affect you as a player, since there is no rule about IC harassment being disallowed. Antagonistic characters are very allowed.
2: I want to make it clear that I did not accuse you OR KEALA of homophobic jokes and I really really apologize that it came off that way, I have since edited my reply slightly to remove that part since it may paint you as a player in a poor light. I said, for the record, "Cracking jokes about peoples same-sex attraction" which is much closer to "lol you like men" than blatant homophobia. This is also something that Keala DID do, which can be found in the screenshots on the staff complaint, but they were not serious at all and closer to comedy than actual attempts at being rude.
3: I did not accuse you or Cybs of favouritism, that was LordPwners accusation.

 

1 hour ago, goolie said:

I take issue with the fact that these screenshots have been silently collected without one word to staff, a report, or even either of them coming to talk to me directly and I think that they were posted out of spite or malice. A lot of the screenshots are also taken out of context in the thread and twisted in a way to support their accusation of harassment when there is none.

Again a lot of these screenshots were taken only when LordPwner and I were muted, because before then I (not including LordPwners opinion because I do not know) did not see any OOC issue. I never contacted you either because there was no need, I saw no need for administrative action and I only used screenshots of Kealas trolling to express Svetas opinion of him. 

 

I apologize for the large essay, but I did try to resolve this over discord, which didn't seem to be possible. I apologize for the mistakes I made in my reply to the staff complaint that painted you in a bad light, it was a complete accident / oversight that I've fixed. I have zero ill-intention toward you, or involved really. And I apologize to you because there are a few ways I could have handled this better. I'm trying to get this resolved in a way that benefits everyone and just puts it behind everyone, it's a lot of misinterpreting and misunderstandings, is what I'm seeing.

Edited February 4, 2023 by DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun

[Zer0Winds]

I'm the player of Rire Gawgaryn, brought up in the linked post. Was considering posting there, but I'm not really related to the complaint there beyond being mentioned slightly.

I talk to Goolies relatively often about my character, and we both know that the other isn't being malicious with their comments to the other's characters (Rire and Ahulku being the prime two, but also just Nalika in general). I personally have no issue with their way of acting ICly, and feel if one does have issues with it, that it should be brought up to the player.

I'm not saying whether they did or did not, as obviously, I'm not them. Seeing Dekser's response, I do think there's some misunderstandings here, on the linked post, and on discord.

For the most part, the issues all around seemed to be IC.

[LordPwner]

2 hours ago, goolie said:

I'm writing this based on the behaviour of both @LordPwner and @DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun leading up to this previous complaint posted here at the bottom of this thread. I really don't appreciate the way they've both gone about insinuating their various accusations against me, and I think there's some OOC thoughts or malice behind it rather than them posting it to bring light to any rules being broken. The screenshots they've posted haven't been shown to staff once and were for some reason, all piled in at once on discord to an admin when they were both being struck for bringing up sexual harassment ICly.

Most of the images that have been posted are just random arguments I've had with the character and if anything, should be handled in an IC sense in the relay or not even handled at all. They don't show any evidence of harassment, sexual harassment, homophobic jokes, being a "meme" character or favouritism from Cybs like what they've accused me of. I take issue with the fact that these screenshots have been silently collected without one word to staff, a report, or even either of them coming to talk to me directly and I think that they were posted out of spite or malice. A lot of the screenshots are also taken out of context in the thread and twisted in a way to support their accusation of harassment when there is none.

Goolies, none of this is over you. It's not they were 'silently' collected. Ignore the fact we only went back like seven at most and after we were suspended so we could point at EVIDENCE and say 'this is why- so why are we in trouble?'. It was to show that by definition Nalika as a character does ENGAGE in HARASSMENT

Now this isn't a bad thing OOCly or ICly which is why no one has come to talk to you, which is why there was a complaint about you or your character. It was a factually correct statement you were harassing women at the time  ICly, it could have been men like is done with Marcus or with punk tajaran. Marcus, as a character, was tired of it and He did not believe it belonged. So he called out. The only people dredging the word sexual out would be Cybs and now yourself, but if we want to get down too some of Nalika's comments do refer back to people's sex lives, how often they get laid, etc. etc. 

 

I was still quite under the idea this SHOULD be an IC issue until Cybs started throwing around the word SEXUAL harassment. We clearly just meant harassment and general, and it seems other people took it that way as well (Considering an unrelated character went 'Yeah he does that to everyone' or something like that). Wasn't trying to upset or offend you OOCly. Marcus just thought it was amusing the actions of the moderator ICly.

[Peppermint]

Hi.

I'll also be on this one given they're linked. Give me some time to check through.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I'm also helping with this one. 

[goolie]

3 hours ago, LordPwner said:

Goolies, none of this is over you.

The entire staff complaint from top to bottom is screenshots of my character and implications that my character harasses multiple people (along with a few other strange accusations.) You wrote it to contest a strike and then filled the complaint with unnecessary and unrelated screenshots and it all just comes off as very targeted when it didn't need to be. You both talk about how you wanted to handle this ICly and it was when you were both given a temporary IC RP ban, until you messaged the admin and flooded them with logs and accusations of harassment. There were other people in the relay that were RPing that took it as sexual harassment, don't you think you should of maybe clarified? Not only that but, you wrote that I SPECIFICALLY target woman which kind of goes hand in hand with that type of behaviour.

4 hours ago, DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun said:

I have since edited my reply slightly to remove that part since it may paint you as a player in a poor light. I said, for the record, "Cracking jokes about peoples same-sex attraction" which is much closer to "lol you like men" than blatant homophobia.

I appreciate that you've edited what you wrote but, it comes off to me (intentionally or not) like you purposely wrote it how you did to imply that I make homophobic jokes which are more often than not, against the rules OOCly. This is the main gripe that I have with you Dekser and what's annoyed me the most, that you didn't think to not post something as damning like that on the public forums and then bowl it down to a "grammar mistake" on your part. Couple that with the cropped screenshots you've included that are without context, where my character has said "I don't like woman" in reference to their preferences and the "girlfriend" comment where few people but you and Birdie took it as harassment to a woman. The funniest one being where he said "an IPC and a Dominian boning" and the part where an IC book literally about an IPC and a Dominian having an intimate relationship was posted has been cropped out. I also reached out to the players that are mentioned in the staff complaint as well and not one of them has taken offence, or felt harassed by me or my character.

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

6 hours ago, goolie said:

I appreciate that you've edited what you wrote but, it comes off to me (intentionally or not) like you purposely wrote it how you did to imply that I make homophobic jokes which are more often than not, against the rules OOCly.

WHY would I do this? I had no idea who you were before I was muted, I have never had anything against you. Not only that but what I wrote didn't even call KEALA homophobic, let alone you. It could only be interpreted that way, which I only realized after you pointed it out and fixed it. I'm copypasting what I wrote on this because I don't think you even read it correctly:

I want to make it clear that I did not accuse you OR KEALA of homophobic jokes and I really really apologize that it came off that way, I have since edited my reply slightly to remove that part since it may paint you as a player in a poor light. I said, for the record, "Cracking jokes about peoples same-sex attraction" which is much closer to "lol you like men" than blatant homophobia. This is also something that Keala DID do, which can be found in the screenshots on the staff complaint, but they were not serious at all and closer to comedy than actual attempts at being rude.

 

6 hours ago, goolie said:

This is the main gripe that I have with you Dekser and what's annoyed me the most, that you didn't think to not post something as damning like that on the public forums and then bowl it down to a "grammar mistake" on your part. Couple that with the cropped screenshots you've included that are without context, where my character has said "I don't like woman" in reference to their preferences and the "girlfriend" comment where few people but you and Birdie took it as harassment to a woman. The funniest one being where he said "an IPC and a Dominian boning" and the part where an IC book literally about an IPC and a Dominian having an intimate relationship was posted has been cropped out. I also reached out to the players that are mentioned in the staff complaint as well and not one of them has taken offence, or felt harassed by me or my character.

I'm going to stop replying if I have to say it another time... EVERY SCREENSHOT OF KEALAS COMMENTS WAS SENT TO CYBS SPECIFICALLY TO PAINT A PICTURE AS TO WHY SVETA DISLIKED KEALA AND NOTHING ELSE. I have made that clear, so many times. You really really seem like this is a personal attack on you and it really just isn't, this is all being blown so far out of proportion, I have apologized, I've fixed what I had to. I'm not sure what you expect to come out of this.

Edited February 5, 2023 by DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun

[LordPwner]

57 minutes ago, DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun said:

I'm going to stop replying if I have to say it another time... EVERY SCREENSHOT OF KEALAS COMMENTS WAS SENT TO CYBS SPECIFICALLY TO PAINT A PICTURE AS TO WHY SVETA DISLIKED KEALA AND NOTHING ELSE. I have made that clear, so many times. You really really seem like this is a personal attack on you and it really just isn't, this is all being blown so far out of proportion, I have apologized, I've fixed what I had to. I'm not sure what you expect to come out of this.

The same applies to Marcus in this situation. I more than likely won't go back to edit the complaint as I don't believe I've put anything incorrect. If you think that is the case please just quote over the forums and/or discord. While still arguing my side, I did my best to stay objective as possible, taking as much context as physical possible from my understanding or from the clues gathered around. As my complaint has to deal with being punished and Cybs dismissive nature over the whole thing.

[Peppermint]

Do not edit posts any further. I can still see the history but it is going to make it more of a headache for Read and I (who is joining me on this) to review it.

I see no reason this complaint can't go ahead. 

We should have a resolution to both soon.

[WickedCybs]

"Goolies, none of this is about you" summarizes the attitudes here. How can that even be said to be objective and truthful when it was alleged that there must be bias due to our friendship. When you can see on my complaint that there are statements hinting ulterior motives due to Keala's running joke of being friends with the relay mods that often rebuff him. That I wasn't doing my due diligence by not drilling every single name dropped on my lap to see what they think about Keala's behavior. In a paraphrased way, saying things along the lines of "I'm glad Sycmos was fine, but are you telling me Keala wasn't harassing women? Did you talk to x and x?". That there were "evident" issues with Keala, so why didn't I handle it? I had to deal with comments about how I was "winning" and they were "losing" as if this is a game they were playing where I could be fed the right words to let what I'm beginning to believe is OOC harassment continue. In the end I was only handling the one incident and it wasn't relevant to do anything more.

Even after revealing to Goolies in my complaint what they have been doing, they're now trying to gaslight him in this one and contradict what they themselves said prior. With Dekser I can sort of feel that they're surprised at how far LordPwner was taking this, but this ultimately ended up being a joint effort.

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

"Goolies, none of this is about you" summarizes the attitudes here. How can that even be said to be objective and truthful when it was alleged that there must be bias due to our friendship.

I have never accused or alleged anyone of favoritism or bias on the basis of their friendships. Sveta's comment in the Relay about "What will a Relay mod do, tell us to go to the Lounge?" Which is the only thing that I've done that might be misinterpreted as an accusation like that comes from an actual case where a Relay mod subtly urged crew disliking Relay conversation into the Lounge.

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

When you can see on my complaint that there are statements hinting ulterior motives due to Keala's running joke of being friends with the relay mods that often rebuff him. That I wasn't doing my due diligence by not drilling every single name dropped on my lap to see what they think about Keala's behavior. In a paraphrased way, saying things along the lines of "I'm glad Sycmos was fine, but are you telling me Keala wasn't harassing women? Did you talk to x and x?". That there were "evident" issues with Keala, so why didn't I handle it? I had to deal with comments about how I was "winning" and they were "losing" as if this is a game they were playing where I could be fed the right words to let what I'm beginning to believe is OOC harassment continue. In the end I was only handling the one incident and it wasn't relevant to do anything more.

Given my above reply, I don't think I can respond to this, since it has nothing to do with me. If you think it does, my response might cover what you think below.

 

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

Even after revealing to Goolies in my complaint what they have been doing, they're now trying to gaslight him in this one and contradict what they themselves said prior. With Dekser I can sort of feel that they're surprised at how far LordPwner was taking this, but this ultimately ended up being a joint effort.

I can't even say "I'm offended" as I'm too sick of this situation to be so. What I will do is break this down.

Firstly: When have I contradicted myself? Please provide evidence when you accuse me of something. I have not gaslighted anyone, the only thing I've done is explain my intents with my IC action and why I think it's frankly bullshit that Svetas conduct results in action taken against me as a player, when I have violated no server rules and have not done with Cybs claimed I did wrong. I have not accused anyone of sexual harassment, nor have I forced a conversation on that subject.

Second: Please stop assuming what I'm feeling. I am not commenting on Pwners complaint, nor am I confirming or denying my opinion on it. Do not drag me into that accusation.

Third: While Pwner and I did communicate when you muted both of us, that was only because you were busy and took an hour to reply, we were confused and trying to piece together what you meant. Since then we have had ONE exchange, which I will actually screenshot and show you. I would hardly call that a "joint effort" to attack Goolies, someone who I have never interacted with. Someone who I do not care about. Someone who is barely even related to the original staff complaint, if at all.

Before you reply to this explaining that our screenshots of Kealas behavior were an attack on Goolies, please read my above posts where I explicitly explained and expressed why they are not that. (I only say this because this exact thing has already happened.)

Spoiler

 

I'll leave this one with this:

I have no motives against Goolies or against Cybs. Frankly I'm just very frustrated and these two complaints are stressing me out. I have other things I should be doing with my time, including my actual real life. My goal in defending myself is to have my strike removed, that's it. I'm not aiming for any punishments, or anything of that sort. I also do not speak for Pwner in any capacity, I'm actually upset that I'm even involved at all, since Cybs seems to primarily have issue with Pwner and their accusation of favoritism. I've explained why I have not done anything wrong, unless someone quotes me and blatantly misidentifies something I've said, I have other things to do. This will be my last reply on the player complaint until a verdict.

I pre-emptively apologize for how rude this comes across as, I am very tired of this.

Edited February 6, 2023 by DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun
As serious about this as I was trying to be, I spelt nor wrong. Corrected.

[LordPwner]

My idea of favoritism comes mainly from how perfectly things lined up. You were busy Cybs, and yet had time to suspend us when they were other staff who were not. You knew you were going to busy and not able to handle it, so why did you not pass it off? It just came off WAY too perfect, and the fact their character DID actually accuse mine of sexual harassment was never handled because we were 'OOC'ing in ICly' (we weren't) and even when this was told to you, on top of IC justification as to why our characters would act towards another character who by definition who harasses other characters- We were the auto-bad guys. You did not listen, you didn't attempt to understand. You just went 'This could be seen badly, if you squint, so you're doing something that breaks rules. In the end, by your warnings it was clear that we didn't break rules, but from your phrasing that 'it could have been'. 

You did what these complaints do not do, you ignored a whole side's behavior and focused only on ours. We pointed you in another direction, with you being the only one to take this as an OOC issue. Where as we just wanted a better, more proper response, and so did our characters. Since you made a judgement call, and a staff action was taken (Which now you want to push to a relay-ban after the complaint was made?) and it was one I felt was grossly mishandled, I wanted to contest it. 

My closing point is just remove the strike, first, original post, it was never edited out. 

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

OOC harassment continue

If you are saying that we're harassing, I will find it the height of comedy... We went to appropriate channels to contest punishment, and are now facing our own mark of punishment for attempting such... I just find this odd.

 

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

In the end I was only handling the one incident and it wasn't relevant to do anything more.

Thats not how interactions work, nor RP, nor IRL there is never just one incident, people normally don't go 0-100 from one thing. It's a build up. To ignore that is to ignore context

 

4 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

they're now trying to gaslight him in this one and contradict what they themselves said prior.

The staff complaint is literally not about them as an OOC person, the screenshots including Nalika (Which the complaint is not Plastered high and low with) is to point evidence as to why characters WOULD react that way. It is a staff complaint about you, being dismissive, ignoring context, and potential nepotism. There are things put in this complaint that are just factually untrue. In my post, I did note that SOME of their comments could be labelled as such.

"While A LOT of what Keala says can DEFINETLY be seen as sexual harassment due to it's very nature being about sexual stuff. Now I'm not going to post every little we thought over the character's fit under the umbrella of 'harassment' because I will be here all month long. 7 is the one that details his comment about Nystrom. His comment about Raena was a little off, and the context around it made it seem more than just 'banter'."

I narrowed it down because you Cybs turned this into a whole 'sexual harassment' and if I DID go back for all cases that would fall under the definition of just harassment or a companies policy, just to Marcus himself. I'd have to go digging for a while to get them all. Mocking someone for a love-life they do or don't have is by definition harassment, you literally can't do that in most places you work for either on the clock or not. People are pink slipped, re-trained, re-educated and in the worst cases fired for this behavior irl. 

But we're funny spessman game, so playing a character as a jerk is acceptable, and can make for interesting roleplay. Which is why it hasn't been brought to you, but when it just repeats, and repeats, and Characters get sick of it. They nor their players should be chastised for not liking it.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Alright. 

After careful consideration, Peppermint and I have decided to warn both Dekser and LrdPwner for the careless defamation of Goolies. You cannot call someone a sexual predator or even insinuate that they are remotely close to such a vile thing, in a public manner without concrete evidence. We will be placing a warning on each of your accounts. Linked with this thread. The warning will be written as "In future interactions with people, you need to be more careful with the syntax, tone, and diction you utilize. It is extremely easy to paint people in a negative and malicious light, even if the intention is not there for such a thing."

I will lock and archive this in 24 hours. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by ReadThisNamePlz