Remove Industrial Frames from Security

[Dreamix]

35 minutes ago, niennab said:

While I dont have a strong opinion either way, personally we should aim to punish the bad players, not removing three character archetypes within a department for everyone.

I think the problem is that kinda, it's not really bad players, so there is nothing to punish here for. As in, a G2 that is tanking all the damage and just slowly walking to valid the antag, is not really doing anything wrong or rule-breaking.

I agree that G2s are OP and should not be security.

[Scheveningen]

43 minutes ago, niennab said:

Moreover it should be kept in mind that if we remove all industrials from security, then we'd be left with baselines, bishops and shells only, as zenghu are also barred from the department.

The core problem appears to be the fact any of the non-baseline/shell IPC species have any distinct advantages or disadvantages at all. Should they not all really just be visual derivatives of a baseline IPC, with the same strengths and weaknesses? From a balance and design perspective, it is completely nonsensical that there is a vast RIFT in difference between one IPC subspecies and another, let alone the fact we have defined IPC subspecies beyond just "baseline" and "shell." It's bloat, to bring back an old buzzword, to have as many directly defined IPC subspecies rather than making the appearance of any given IPC simply be part of the package.

Is there any particular reason why we NEED the Xion subspecies, the Bishop subspecies, the G1s and G2s, or the Zeng-Hus? Is there anything they currently add to gameplay that cannot simply be squashed into the basic Baseline package and let people either roleplay as corporate property or as self-owned, custom-maintained entities? Because as I see it, "weaker in certain areas and stronger in others and repeat this 5 times" is an unconvincing gimmick that is completely unnecessary for the sake of what is being offered in gameplay and roleplay terms.

[Cnaym]

First they came for the mobility frames...

Yeah G2s are completly unbalanced, speed tanking was so viable that it was removed first, almost nothing on this server is balanced at all, Xions used to be pretty much unarmored in lore so they stay cool.

Schev nailed the real issue, we got three industrials with only one having a distinct feature of being able to spacewalk, the G1 is fine for security as the speed is slow enough and the armor not hillariously broken. Just take the G2 out the back and... Could just replace one of the G2 hands with a funky industrial tool that pretty much forces them to work in their specific areas of engineering or mining. I am thinking of a powerful and species specific drill, welding multitool thingy or maybe even a hydraulic clamp so Mr. Chonk can carry crates around for cargo.

Diona officers only excuse for years was that they can be downed by flashes (emp excuse anyone?) and still got nerfed massively until they found a semi balanced place, the G2 is pretty much in the same spot. If you manage to murder the right players with them over and over you will see it nerfed faster than with any forum discussion though.

[Carver]

1 hour ago, niennab said:

I might not be as familiar with Xions but aren't they particularly weaker due to their ability to be in space without a cooler? I wouldn't think of them as needing to be removed but maybe I have the wrong impression of them.

While I dont have a strong opinion either way, personally we should aim to punish the bad players, not removing three character archetypes within a department for everyone.

Moreover it should be kept in mind that if we remove all industrials from security, then we'd be left with baselines, bishops and shells only, as zenghu are also barred from the department.

The ability to wear armour safely in space with a cooler is very, very frightening in the hands of Security - when the traditional counter to specialized armour was forcing security to fight in a vacuum outside of their home turf. I'd agree with punishing the bad players if not that the very nature of a G2 Officer existing in Security means you may as well entirely avoid fighting sec as an antag unless you want to hard invest into killing a singular IPC (supported by humans, or worse, unathi) who will just inhale some nanopaste if you don't kill them with fat burst damage.

Truthfully, I'd be fine if Industrials were left in exactly one role, Investigator. This role is never expected to fight outside of defensive situations and it's frowned upon to prioritize equipping an Investigator over an Officer, or playing a frontline-happy Investigator.

[canon35]

I can't say I care if industrials get removed or not, in fact I probably do lean towards "Wow it would be cool if they weren't in sec" purely because of personal experiences with them. However I do want to say that the issues with industrials in combat roles is because the problem of IPCs in combat as a whole is amplified with them. They're a species that does not bleed, does not experience pain, cannot have broken bones, and can be easily healed if the person playing them knows what they are doing. When you're facing down a truck in IPC form, these become a much bigger problem to deal with as a combatant.

Any effort spent on actually giving IPCs something to try and level the playing field like oil/fluid mechanics, servos in the limbs which make them unable to function if broken, would be way more useful in balancing IPCs for combat than just removing another type of them from security.

[Boggle08]

1 hour ago, canon35 said:

Any effort spent on actually giving IPCs something to try and level the playing field like oil/fluid mechanics, servos in the limbs which make them unable to function if broken, would be way more useful in balancing IPCs for combat than just removing another type of them from security.

Yeah, you know, that's a pretty good take. Stabilizing people is a pretty huge deal for anything that uses brainmed. The longer you ignore your wounds, the worse you get until you either run out of blood, oxygen, or go into cascading necrosis. It's one thing being able to straight up ignore pain, it's another being your own stasis bed.

[LordPwner]

20 hours ago, Boggle08 said:

Yeah, you know, that's a pretty good take. Stabilizing people is a pretty huge deal for anything that uses brainmed. The longer you ignore your wounds, the worse you get until you either run out of blood, oxygen, or go into cascading necrosis. It's one thing being able to straight up ignore pain, it's another being your own stasis bed.

It could be looked at to give them things like a pump in place for a heart, air filter in place of lungs. Would make fighting them much more manageable if they also suffered from shutdowns or dropping if these parts were too broken. When playing Merc/Raider, I often find a G2 to be a walking fortress, 100% ignoring any damage I can throw at it, and breaking my leg/arm/chest in two-three swift punches or just standing point blank shooting me till I drop from paint.

@Fluffy as for the bridge thing you tried bringing up. I respect the amount of effort put into it, but it is way too long and seems to be theory, not practice. More often then not, even with great positioning, the G2/G1 looks me in the eye as it marches into six guns, getting fully lit up by tons of people and turns a corner before blowing me away. Like the cop bots from Chappie. Only dying to the extreme. Also when it comes to ion/emp nades you need to consider how much gear they can actually carry. a 'weapon's specialist' taking two rifles, nades, cuffs and a pistol. With flash bangs, and the like doesn't have space. A dedicated medic, they barely have space for their gun. The Engineer likewise has tools, metal, glass and generally has one long gun. And whoever is in charge, depending on gimmick is underarmed by design or is carrying your support equipment/objectives and has one gun. Taking the ion (which unless I am misremembering can not be slung over your armor) is more often then not just a waste of your equipment. It depowers the IPC, thats it from my understanding. So they just grab them and run them to a charger, which are readily aval all over the ship. Give 'em like 1 min and they're back in the fight. (I know this is generally true from the time Jill got antag ganked in xenobio by a emp nade, was put in charger and it was like nothing had happened.)

 

If we can not get them limbs/organs that make them at least easier to go down, they should be barred from sec. They don't fit the playstyle of being teambased/nor lore wise were made for it. Worst of all, they're just generally unfun to play against and make it more likely that your gimmick will just get rolled, and the only logic being 'I have to surrender, there is no way to fight out of this'.

[Sniblet]

My experience with game balance in SS13 is that big tough races are usually somewhat-arbitrarily barred from being too powerful by virtue of something like "finger too big for trigger, can't shoot gun"

[Fluffy]

54 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

More often then not, even with great positioning, the G2/G1 looks me in the eye as it marches into six guns, getting fully lit up by tons of people and turns a corner before blowing me away.

The difference in damage modifier of a G2 is 10% less damage than a Unathi, the G1 has the same brute damage modifier of a Unathi, for a way lower movement speed, which is the advantage you have over them and the thing you should play onto against them.

Setting up a barricade in the corridor would let you dump an entire magazine on them, probably destroying them, before they manage to get close to you, from the safety of essentially a trench, and when they finally reach that barricade (if they're still functioning) you can just zoom away and redo, sec industrials have no way to counter any tactic that exploit their slowness, because they don't even have access to a grenade (an actual one) to make you run away from the barricade as they slowly try to reach and overcome it.

 

1 hour ago, LordPwner said:

Also when it comes to ion/emp nades you need to consider how much gear they can actually carry. a 'weapon's specialist' taking two rifles, nades, cuffs and a pistol. With flash bangs, and the like doesn't have space. A dedicated medic, they barely have space for their gun. The Engineer likewise has tools, metal, glass and generally has one long gun. And whoever is in charge, depending on gimmick is underarmed by design or is carrying your support equipment/objectives and has one gun. Taking the ion (which unless I am misremembering can not be slung over your armor) is more often then not just a waste of your equipment.

What you usually should do, is rainsack the spawn area as a merc and put every tool and weapon into your ship, this way when you choose to push it into becoming a deathmatch, you can go back to your ship and take the things you need to fight, the merc base has ion rifles there already so they're also free for you, I don't remember of the EMP grenades but they can probably be added likewise if they're not there yet?

 

1 hour ago, LordPwner said:

It depowers the IPC, thats it from my understanding. So they just grab them and run them to a charger, which are readily aval all over the ship.

The only charger that I know of that has free access is on deck one, center-west, and would require to abort the assault just to take the IPC and drag it away, which I don't really see happening, that also means that you are now against a team with less people in, so you can use your superior firepower and numbers to push against them and either robust them or force them to retreat, usually without taking the IPC with them, at which point you can haul it into your newly found bunker or destroy it if you wish, it would also be interesting to think about some sort of virus technology where you could infect their posi brain so that they turn allies to you, I thought of adding an exploitable to mine to accomplish such thing, but something mechanically implemented could work aswell (and would work on every one of them, though I still don't see anyone playing them in sec besides me and some forgotten guy I remember from half a year ago and never saw again).

 

1 hour ago, LordPwner said:

Give 'em like 1 min and they're back in the fight. (I know this is generally true from the time Jill got antag ganked in xenobio by a emp nade, was put in charger and it was like nothing had happened.)

The charge rate of the recharger would take a fair bit more, though you can always suck power from the APCs (assuming you go around and find them charged) to charge faster, the EMP/Ion rifle isn't a nuclear bomb that destroys them, it's meant to disable them, once they are down you can go to them and destroy them if you wish to, but in the end it's not too dissimilar from a non-synthetic officer that gets healed and ressed, if anything it makes it easier for you to take down their energy weapons, the IPCs and probably someone's mechanical lung/heart all with a single grenade (assuming they are all in range and don't run away in time, for the other officers), which is very powerful.

 

1 hour ago, LordPwner said:

If we can not get them limbs/organs that make them at least easier to go down, they should be barred from sec. They don't fit the playstyle of being teambased/nor lore wise were made for it. Worst of all, they're just generally unfun to play against and make it more likely that your gimmick will just get rolled, and the only logic being 'I have to surrender, there is no way to fight out of this'.

My proposal was to block them from using ablative armors, which means ontop of all the other options that you can use against them, you can also just take a single laser rifle and be effective at countering them, hitting them in the legs to slow them down even more, on the arms to deny the firing precision (or outright making them dropping the gun randomly while moving), potentially all of this from behind a door that, unless they have laser rifles too, blocks any and all damage coming your way (and if you have an ablative armor yourself, well, you're essentially in a fortress just by using airlocks with glasses).

 

Let's also not forget, you yourself can have one or more in in your mercenary team, which is also better equipped in raw firepower than any officer could ever be (at least until we start actually using science to build weapons), and I remind fondly when we fought against a merc gimmick with 4 G2s in it, it was a fun time and we disposed of two of them fairly easily (one with the PEAC, the other we simply gunned down).

Most of sec would absolutely avoid robusting the antags, often we very much play dumb to let them run away free depending on the round time, and I had fairly positive LOOCs and dsays with people that fought my G2 and found it funny to do so, the mechanical aspect alone is not the full picture, but since it's the focus of this suggestion (and I hope everyone participating already knows it's not the only thing), I am not covering the other considerations that aren't solely mechanical based, but let's not forget they are not only there, but the bigger part of the picture, here; a robust specie that requires 10 roleplay step before being able to be used (an equivalent of the leviathan) and once done so can deliver immense firepower is better (in a healthy amount) than 10 whose role is the same yesterday's soup. For example, I assign "executive privileges" to the HoS/Captain with my G2 and, unless explicitly confirmed (or the situation is egregious), I do not use lethal weapons otherwise; this is just an RP example of how the mechanical part is balanced, we rely on everyone having fun and the RP aspect can, is and should, be used to balance out things, eg. Diona are generally pacifist in RP and lore, otherwise they could robust the entire ship, given their self healing, higher speed than a G2, immunity to the "resonant cascade" of pain etc.

[meep109]

2 hours ago, Sniblet said:

My experience with game balance in SS13 is that big tough races are usually somewhat-arbitrarily barred from being too powerful by virtue of something like "finger too big for trigger, can't shoot gun"

I personally like this idea and didn't think of it before, but it's done in many other servers.
 

 

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

The difference in damage modifier of a G2 is 10% less damage than a Unathi, the G1 has the same brute damage modifier of a Unathi, for a way lower movement speed, which is the advantage you have over them and the thing you should play onto against them.

The reason Unathis do not have the same problem as G2s and G1s is that they have bones and they can feel pain. With Industrial frames they can tank damage without having to worry about arterials, bones and blood loss.

[Fluffy]

2 minutes ago, meep109 said:

The reason Unathis do not have the same problem as G2s and G1s is that they have bones and they can feel pain. With Industrial frames they can tank damage without having to worry about arterials, bones and blood loss.

I remember messages of bullets rattling inside you, I suppose they damage the limbs/chassis overtime if they are left there? Just like a broken bone would? Maybe we could make it that they short things up and suck even more battery if you move around with them inside? That would be a reasonable mechanical strategy to me too.

[meep109]

1 minute ago, Fluffy said:

remember messages of bullets rattling inside you, I suppose they damage the limbs/chassis overtime if they are left there? Just like a broken bone would?

Broken bones basically make you unable to do things with that limb, like holding guns (I think?) I know there's some application in that for a robotic limb, but it'd be nice to make IPCs have to deal with the same issues as basically every other species (blood, etc)

[Fluffy]

15 minutes ago, meep109 said:

Broken bones basically make you unable to do things with that limb, like holding guns (I think?) I know there's some application in that for a robotic limb

Yes, if your limbs are damaged you randomly drop what you have in hand, without the need of having broken bones (or bones at all), for what I saw.

 

16 minutes ago, meep109 said:

it'd be nice to make IPCs have to deal with the same issues as basically every other species (blood, etc)

I don't think flattening the uniqueness of every species is desirable, we could otherwise say that Tajs should not have integrated night vision and deal with dark areas problems like every other species, that Skrells shouldn't be able to be moving sonar-equipped destroyers and locate people like every other species, and so on; it's nice (and more interesting, and engaging) to have different species be different in different aspects, also mechanically, I believe we should make them more distinctive and unique, instead of less, across them all.

[Carver]

I have seen some rather poor industrials in the department lately that reminded me of this thread. As has been said before, the department does not benefit from objectively overpowered races that ignore a vast majority of mechanics and enable bad play in general.

[LordPwner]

6 hours ago, Carver said:

I have seen some rather poor industrials in the department lately that reminded me of this thread. As has been said before, the department does not benefit from objectively overpowered races that ignore a vast majority of mechanics and enable bad play in general.

It is not even that it is necessarily 'bad' players. But to trust people to ALWAYS to be honest and hold themselves back in any game with combat, no matter how nerdy or odd like SS13 is just not possible. It doesn't fit their lore, they're mechanically unfun to play against because they don't have any organs/weak points (That btw, an actual robot would have because pistons/hydraulics would be required for them to move. This is a non-negotiable reality. If IPC's get actual parts *that would add more gameplay to IPC's and machinist mind you* then they shouldn't get removed.) Till then, I don't see a good reason to keep them in sec as the immortal gimmick disabler, elite death squad alpha member.

[Carver]

12 hours ago, LordPwner said:

It is not even that it is necessarily 'bad' players. But to trust people to ALWAYS to be honest and hold themselves back in any game with combat, no matter how nerdy or odd like SS13 is just not possible. It doesn't fit their lore, they're mechanically unfun to play against because they don't have any organs/weak points (That btw, an actual robot would have because pistons/hydraulics would be required for them to move. This is a non-negotiable reality. If IPC's get actual parts *that would add more gameplay to IPC's and machinist mind you* then they shouldn't get removed.) Till then, I don't see a good reason to keep them in sec as the immortal gimmick disabler, elite death squad alpha member.

Even with weak points I'm not really sure, all of the models listed are capable of wearing armour in space which means you can't counter them wearing specialized armour as one typically counters security - fighting them out in space. It's a whole bundle of disregarding mechanics even if one ignores G1s/G2s being exceptionally utilitarian with their melee abilities and the absurd power of being able to rip open a door or punch through reinforced glass.

[Fluffy]

19 hours ago, Carver said:

the department does not benefit from objectively overpowered races that ignore a vast majority of mechanics and enable bad play in general.

Apart from a difference of opinions or how you would even consider them ignoring a vast majority of mechanics (there's literally hundreds, and I doubt they can ignore a tent of them), or the subjective idea of what is bad play, you are claiming that they are objectively overpowered, objectively would indicate that it's something demonstrable, with a body of evidences, which in turn are facts that everyone can verify to be true and positively indicative of, or exclusively concordant with, one hypothesis over any other; this also implies an objective, or at least intersubjective, clear definition of a set of metrics that differentiate between "stronger than X in Y" and "overpowered"; since your claim directly indicates one and implies the other, I'd like to have them stated, so we can all agree on this, due to the very nature of a claimed objective thing.

It seems however rather odd that you have posted this, if the time is correct, right around after your corporate representative was told IC to go pond sand, while saying "I have seen some rather poor industrials in the department lately that reminded me of this thread.", I am more inclined to believe that you simply do not like the RP archetype of beefy and not particularly sharp sec synthetics (of which I have seen another one), which I understand the personal preferences differences, but not their use as a reason to remove what matches other people's preferences, though it could also just be a bias that skews the perception of their general balance (this goes for both of us), but that is of course only my personal suspicion.

Given that I play as sec and/or antag for a significant percentage of my playtime, and I have not felt them overpowered on either side of the fence, and that they are playable in said position since literal years for what I can see from the code, I do not see any reason that justify their removal; I see as good to give them more mechanics (see below) that would add to the rounds as a whole, instead of subtracting from the mechanical diversity pool.

 

12 hours ago, LordPwner said:

But to trust people to ALWAYS to be honest and hold themselves back in any game with combat, no matter how nerdy or odd like SS13 is just not possible. [...] immortal gimmick disabler, elite death squad alpha member

Generally speaking, everyone in security holds back depending on the time, it is generally cadets that go gun blazing and headgib the antagonists, there's also some sporadic officer that goes gun heavy and kills them, and the ones I remember in recent times are a human, a tajara and a non-industrial IPC, unless all those wild industrial terminators play in times I do not play at?

Far more immortal than an industrial is an off-worlder human, as they can easily be estracted, ressed and recommissioned into combat thanks to their brain, IPCs on the contrary once they are down, they're gone forever, you can't repair or ress them (unless all you did to do that was discharge them with an EMP or similar), the investment against them is not to be compared to a disablement investment, but a permanent removal from round one, which is why it's slightly higher.

Due to the nature of brainmed, organ damage / pain / oxyloss would tick to disable a mob around after you got magdumped abundantly, at which point the officer would get medically ressed, but the antags do not have that option, so all it really needs to overpower them is to cause an organ damage or break a bone, retreat and wait for them to collapse on the floor (unless you invest in sanasomnum)... But since that is not fun for anyone, that is not usually done (see: holding back), because the main limiting factor of antagonists is, as I said before: the lack of an infrastructure behind to support them, medical especially, not of resistance or firepower.

 

13 hours ago, LordPwner said:

they don't have any organs/weak points

Targeting their arms disable them and, as they do not heal overtime, essentially kneecap their ability to fight until they go to a machinist (or find nanopaste, which by the way you do not usually carry on yourself, as it is generally not made or available and that would be seen as powergaming), that is another counter that stacks ontop of everything else I have listed already in previous posts.

 

13 hours ago, LordPwner said:

If IPC's get actual parts *that would add more gameplay to IPC's and machinist mind you*

I agree having pistons and whatnot would be a more interesting mechanic, and incentive the machinist's presence and gameplay loop.

 

42 minutes ago, Carver said:

you can't counter them wearing specialized armour as one typically counters security - fighting them out in space.

You can counter them with laser rifles, EMP (which has no armor to protect from), and by using your higher speed; Specifically in space, you can counter them even harder with the use of a jetpack that they cannot wear (the cooler takes the slot), making the speed difference even more marked.

 

45 minutes ago, Carver said:

their melee abilities

What melee abilities are we talking about here? As far as I'm aware you don't have any special melee ability?

 

46 minutes ago, Carver said:

absurd power of being able to rip open a door

Ripping open a door takes only a little less than punching it down, and requires you to stay still, it almost sounds like a perfect target for a laser rifle shot...

[meep109]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Far more immortal than an industrial is an off-worlder human, as they can easily be estracted, ressed and recommissioned into combat thanks to their brain, IPCs on the contrary once they are down, they're gone forever, you can't repair or ress them (unless all you did to do that was discharge them with an EMP or similar), the investment against them is not to be compared to a disablement investment, but a permanent removal from round one, which is why it's slightly higher.

 

You can revive IPCs quite easily. In fact, they're the only mechanically revivable race in the game right now I believe.

Edited April 6, 2023 by meep109

[Carver]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Apart from a difference of opinions or how you would even consider them ignoring a vast majority of mechanics (there's literally hundreds, and I doubt they can ignore a tent of them), or the subjective idea of what is bad play, you are claiming that they are objectively overpowered, objectively would indicate that it's something demonstrable, with a body of evidences, which in turn are facts that everyone can verify to be true and positively indicative of, or exclusively concordant with, one hypothesis over any other; this also implies an objective, or at least intersubjective, clear definition of a set of metrics that differentiate between "stronger than X in Y" and "overpowered"; since your claim directly indicates one and implies the other, I'd like to have them stated, so we can all agree on this, due to the very nature of a claimed objective thing.

I feel quite content in my statement considering they blatantly disregard: The entirety of Brainmed including the pain system and internal injuries, the requirement of tools to bypass a majority of doors, the grab system by virtue of their modifiers (what I was referring to by melee abilities), the existence of voidsuits (yet curiously are still able to wear armour), the permanence of death and so forth. They are, for the most part, existing in a state of balance reminiscent of how mechanics were ten years ago. I would dare say they're superior to the old security cyborgs when they're adequately equipped.

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

It seems however rather odd that you have posted this, if the time is correct, right around after your corporate representative was told IC to go pond sand, while saying "I have seen some rather poor industrials in the department lately that reminded me of this thread.", I am more inclined to believe that you simply do not like the RP archetype of beefy and not particularly sharp sec synthetics (of which I have seen another one), which I understand the personal preferences differences, but not their use as a reason to remove what matches other people's preferences, though it could also just be a bias that skews the perception of their general balance (this goes for both of us), but that is of course only my personal suspicion.

I prefer to address the source of the problems, not the symptoms. Being reminded of something I had meant to post in again for some weeks is none of your concern, and I truly would not care what model your character is in - though I can't imagine myself willingly enabling antagonist roles with an Industrial in Security.

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

You can counter them with laser rifles, EMP (which has no armor to protect from), and by using your higher speed; Specifically in space, you can counter them even harder with the use of a jetpack that they cannot wear (the cooler takes the slot), making the speed difference even more marked.

Laser rifles would be quaint if not that Security starts with ablative armour in their armoury, and they will generally equip themselves to counter what you are seen carrying. It is rarely feasible to carry multiple longarms. As for EMPs, they are cute but I'd prefer not to have antagonists balanced around ordering a different tool to disable each individual within a department (especially ones that have been nerfed heavily from prior iterations where they were truly effective in destroying synthetics, rather than merely disabling them).

Traditionally it has been balanced in this form: If your weapon is hard countered, you bring the fight to space where specialized armour is no longer feasible - something decidedly ignored by the three IPC sub-species this thread is commenting upon.

As for door ripping, generally if there's a glass door there's a window that's markedly easier to break. If the door isn't glass, then I wouldn't exactly expect to be shot. I'll note that it takes a great amount of time as well for the average Officer to break down a door physically, given few of their tools have enough force to do so - and those that are typically carried (maglight) are nowhere near the efficacy of a fireaxe or similar.

32 minutes ago, meep109 said:

You can revive IPCs quite easily. In fact, they're the only mechanically revivable race in the game right now I believe.

Dionae can as well if I remember correctly? Though I believe it's rather traumatizing for them.

[Fluffy]

43 minutes ago, Carver said:

the requirement of tools to bypass a majority of doors

A stunbatoon or maglight is all you need to "bypass" a door, something you have access at essentially roundstart by default, even if not, literally any object can be used to "bypass" a door, if you get the combitool implant you can do it with no external tool at all.

45 minutes ago, Carver said:

the existence of voidsuits

Just like Dionas and Varuca

1 hour ago, Carver said:

the permanence of death

2 hours ago, meep109 said:

You can revive IPCs quite easily. In fact, they're the only mechanically revivable race in the game right now I believe.

Every time I got destroyed, I was never brought back to life even with the machinist aboard, are you sure this is still a mechanic? 

1 hour ago, Carver said:

Being reminded of something I had meant to post in again for some weeks is none of your concern

Pointing out a possible source of bias in a discussion is generally a positive thing, especially given the extremely odd (or unfortunate) timing, and any as such is indeed a concern for either side of any argument; At least, if you want the outcome to be as objective as possible, which I hope all of us do.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

I prefer to address the source of the problems, not the symptoms.

Me too, the question hinges on if there's a problem to begin with, and what it would be.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

though I can't imagine myself willingly enabling antagonist roles with an Industrial in Security.

From the Server Rules: "[...] We expect players to allow traitors some leeway"

1 hour ago, Carver said:

Laser rifles would be quaint if not that Security starts with ablative armour in their armoury, and they will generally equip themselves to counter what you are seen carrying.

Only two ablatives are available, and I would agree with you if the proposal was to block Industrials from using the ablative armor, at least with its current balance.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

As for EMPs, they are cute but I'd prefer not to have antagonists balanced around ordering a different tool to disable each individual within a department

So, you'd rather have the same encounter mechanic repeated for every encounter? Because I don't see an alternative, mechanically, to have differentiation of mechanicals during engagements than this, or do you have a proposal in that regard?

1 hour ago, Carver said:

something decidedly ignored by the three IPC sub-species this thread is commenting upon.

For how I see it, it would mean you should choose another weapon that isn't hard countered, and blocking them from using the ablative armor, as above, would address this as well.

I would also note that EVA hardsuits with great defensive power can be ordered, to negate any EVA fighting rebalance, and does not take long to be built for what I saw, unlike exosuits which takes half a year.

[party]

I've watched multiple IPCs be revived from having their heads blown off within the past week. If the posi isn't lost or double-tapped and the machinist cares to give them a new body, they are functionally immortal.

[Carver]

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

A stunbatoon or maglight is all you need to "bypass" a door, something you have access at essentially roundstart by default, even if not, literally any object can be used to "bypass" a door, if you get the combitool implant you can do it with no external tool at all.

While I did mention the maglight, a tool that I mentioned as quite slow - oh, and if you're using a combitool implant as security there's a strong argument for powergaming there - I feel this is worth demonstration.

By the same tests, a maglight took thirty hits to break the door. That is nowhere near the same time efficiency and can't be done if one has had their equipment removed from them.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Just like Dionas and Varuca

Vaurcae don't ignore brain-med (Dionae somewhat do, but they're loaded with a plethora of native weaknesses) and the server has made very strong efforts to move away from powergaming Security Dionae as far as mechanics go.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Every time I got destroyed, I was never brought back to life even with the machinist aboard, are you sure this is still a mechanic? 

I have taken the time just now to test this as well, and it works per the guide.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Only two ablatives are available, and I would agree with you if the proposal was to block Industrials from using the ablative armor, at least with its current balance.

If we're going to take half-measures I'd rather see Industrials wholly unable to use any armour. But I'd prefer a change that targets solely Security, instead of crippling the antagonists of these sub-species as well.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

So, you'd rather have the same encounter mechanic repeated for every encounter? Because I don't see an alternative, mechanically, to have differentiation of mechanicals during engagements than this, or do you have a proposal in that regard?

Consider that telecrystals are a very finite resource that you will typically use a majority of to enforce a gimmick, leaving you not as much as you'd perhaps like to handle other matters if you have multiple big issues. Per my earlier comment, these issues are normally circumvented via cleverness such as taking the fight to space, but in this case that isn't very feasible.

As for hardsuits, they are both a significant investment in regard to resources for human characters to use (and are only very rarely made by the Machinist due to resources and research required, while being essentially never taken by crew from the Vault due to powergaming concerns) while the G2 that can use armoury equipment that is not only available at roundstart but expected to be used - cannot, in fact, use these hardsuits.

Spoiler

 

Spoilered to minimize post-size: Shitcurity Officer is the lad on the left, who with the same spare ID attempted to put on the same hardsuits as the G2 while using the same verb to do so - Toggle Hardsuit.

Given that they are used by organic characters, I once again raise the 'doesn't ignore brain-med' point. Furthermore, these hardsuits do not exceed the power of Corporate Heavy Armour, per this direct comparison below of the Combat Hardsuit and Corporate Heavy. Thus meaning they can be effectively defeated by most non-AP longarms.

Spoiler

.. I really hope these spoilers worked since this forum has no preview feature.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Carver
Removed additional screenshots that were unnecessary after some thought.

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, Carver said:

While I did mention the maglight, a tool that I mentioned as quite slow

Not that much slow IMHO: 

Spoiler

 

25 seconds vs 20

1 hour ago, Carver said:

Vaurcae don't ignore brain-med

1 hour ago, Carver said:

the G2 that can use armoury equipment that is not only available at roundstart but expected to be used - cannot, in fact, use these hardsuits

I was talking about the voidsuits mechanic, not brainmed, they do not need an EVA suit to go into space, which means they can wear the specialized armor just as well as an Industrial IPC, and also have a nice backpack full of ammos / guns / grenades / a jetpack / whatnot while doing so.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

I have taken the time just now to test this as well, and it works per the guide.

If you'd like to have them not revivable back into IPCs, but just borgs instead, that's also something I'd tend to agree with.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

If we're going to take half-measures I'd rather see Industrials wholly unable to use any armour. But I'd prefer a change that targets solely Security, instead of crippling the antagonists of these sub-species as well.

Through the code almost anything is possible, including not having any restriction if you are an antag, and have it if you are in security.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

these hardsuits do not exceed the power of Corporate Heavy Armour, per this direct comparison below of the Combat Hardsuit and Corporate Heavy. Thus meaning they can be effectively defeated by most non-AP longarms.

The difference between specialized and not is +5 on what they're specialized against, compared to the heavy one, and a lot less in everything else:

  

Quote

  

[Carver]

On 06/04/2023 at 01:50, Fluffy said:

I was talking about the voidsuits mechanic, not brainmed, they do not need an EVA suit to go into space, which means they can wear the specialized armor just as well as an Industrial IPC, and also have a nice backpack full of ammos / guns / grenades / a jetpack / whatnot while doing so.

The key takeaway from my mention of brain-med is that they bleed, feel pain and are otherwise affected by most mechanics despite their wearing armour. Vaurcae are also not exactly the most resilient of species due to poor self-healing and medical not uncommonly killing them from malpractice.

On 06/04/2023 at 01:50, Fluffy said:

If you'd like to have them not revivable back into IPCs, but just borgs instead, that's also something I'd tend to agree with.

Much as I dislike revival mechanics, that isn't really what I'm targeting. It's more of a 'cherry on top' of the pile of balance issues.

On 06/04/2023 at 01:50, Fluffy said:

Through the code almost anything is possible, including not having any restriction if you are an antag, and have it if you are in security.

There's no way to really cleanly do this besides having armour in the uplink designed to fit industrials. But making G1s, G2s and Xions entirely unable to wear armour outside of antag-exclusive uplink gear is one compromise I'd be entirely fine with.

On 06/04/2023 at 01:50, Fluffy said:

The difference between specialized and not is +5 on what they're specialized against, compared to the heavy one, and a lot less in everything else:

I actually made a point of testing these differences out of curiosity, but I didn't post screenshots of the results because my post had felt fairly lengthy as-is. Off of memory last night from a brief bit of testing laser rifles it generally protected from around 7-8~ more damage per shot (I don't have the exact numbers because I didn't take screenshots of anything but testing on the combat hardsuit) to have specialized armour vs heavy, which for high-capacity semi-automatics like said aforementioned laser rifles, constitutes a fairly significant loss of damage over an extended engagement.

[Fluffy]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

The key takeaway from my mention of brain-med is that they bleed, feel pain and are otherwise affected by most mechanics despite their wearing armour.

That, however, hardly matters on a single sparring, for what I saw both the blood loss and the ticking of the pain effect happens after many, many, many shots are already fired, so that they would be relevant if you hit and run, but not in a hunker-down and keep clicking to magdump fight, which is the type of combat an Industrial would be most useful in, as they do not fare well in more dynamic types of combats, and fighting them in any situation where you have the initiative over them would bring them to their demise, being limited to a single laser rifle charge or 45 bullets total before needing to either go away and recharge the laser rifle or rainsack the crew armory / bother ops for more 5.56 loaders, if you run out of ammo as an Industrial you are essentially condemned to death, a merc can just keep distance and shoot you while you can't neither get close nor get away from it (assuming it's not another Industrial), essentially being a target practice cutout cardboard, the merc on the other hand has a vast amount of bullets (8/9 loaders is common, and you can fit an SMG with another bunch in your backpack) such that you have no problem keeping outside of his view and spray in his direction a wall of bullets, etc. etc.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

Vaurcae are also not exactly the most resilient of species due to poor self-healing

IPCs do not self-heal at all either, all damage you do to them, is yours for essentially forever, until they can get to a machinist to be repaired, or ops order the nanopaste and they go get it.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

There's no way to really cleanly do this besides having armour in the uplink designed to fit industrials.

I suppose there's a function that checks if you can use a certain item, if my assumption is correct it's just a matter of checking the antag status and returning true, or false otherwise.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

But making G1s, G2s and Xions entirely unable to wear armour outside of antag-exclusive uplink gear is one compromise I'd be entirely fine with.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

to have specialized armour vs heavy, which for high-capacity semi-automatics like said aforementioned laser rifles, constitutes a fairly significant loss of damage over an extended engagement.

Entirely unable on any armor seems excessive to me, I'd be fine with making them unable to wear the specialized ones, leaving them more susceptible to laser fire, which as you say constitutes a fairly significant amount of damage difference, that seems a good compromise?