Player Complaint - Evandorf/Suvek Tokash

[kyres1]

BYOND Key: kyres1

Game ID: cpA-apJV

Player Byond Key/Character name: evandorf/Suvek Tokash

Staff involved: None.

Reason for complaint: The round was coming to a close. Raiders were given the ultimatum to leave their imprisoned friend by Suvek Tokash (HOS). Afterwards, they refused, and we escalated into a standoff in the brig.

In the midst of the standoff, another raider came from EVA and blew out the external window with plastic explosives. The entire area was breached, visibly so - most of the engagement took place in direct eyesight of the hole to space, all while security was gasping for air. During this, multiple attempts were made to coerce security to not keep charging in a losing battle, such as cleaner grenade slipping them, point blanking Tokash in the head with a musket after flashbang stunning them, and so on.

However, pretty quickly afterwards, while the actual escape attempt was finishing, Tokash had wandered back into the depressurized area with a Dominian assault rifle and an SMG in either hand. With a broken skull and standing in vacuum very willingly at this point, they gunned me down. It kind of sucked. I think it's obviously disregarding the excruciating pain of being shot, flashbanged multiple times, unarmored, in the skull, and then willingly doing battle in vacuum with no spacesuit. Not to mention, this is going to suicidal lengths to ensure the deaths of opponents, not just as security but also command.

Other raiders expressed confusion about it all. I couldn't tell if they were actually involved with Tokash' actions or not, nor am I sure if they even have a forum account, so I've left them out of mentioning here.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? : Yes. No admins were online to take it, and the round ended 20 minutes or so after the ticket was sent out with no response. The ahelp;

Approximate Date/Time: 10pm-12am CST, specifically near the 02:40-02-55 round duration

[Evandorf]

I don't think the firefight needs any justification. Kyres summarized the lead-up pretty well. Security had had run ins with the raiders twice before and the second time they were told to leave and would be shot on-sight if they returned. I'll give a rundown of the events of the firefight though and my perspective on the context.

The breach was in the brig communal, the shutters were down, most of the fighting was done in communal's antechamber and due to people forcing shutters we were not fully depressurized for a time. I was wearing a full mask with a full pocket tank so I wasn't in danger of popping a lung. The raider wearing the Dominian gear went down first and dropped his rifle but it only had three rounds remaining. Another officer had dropped his SMG due to the airflow and/or wounds from the first raider; that was mainly what I used. I tried to repel the raiders in communal but Kyres used cleaner grenades for area denial and eventually a flashbang. For the latter half of the fight I was deafened and could not hear any calls for ceasefire or retreat. I wasn't aware that I was pointblanked because the screen was white from the flashbang and the logs were lost in the scroll. After I was able to stand up again, I re-engaged, firing the SMG at those remaining in communal but at this point I was really starting to hurt so I retreated back into the main security hallway where medical collected me. I had thought that the area had finally depressurized enough to where I was feeling the effects but in retrospect it was more likely pain from being pointblanked while flashbanged. I went to medical and they did surgery to remove the shrapnel but by the time I was awake the raiders had fled.

[Scheveningen]

I was Verkenner Hoeven this round and witnessed HOS Tokash and Officer Baral and Kra'jun just willfully walk into a breached communal brig without a spacesuit and engage in a vacuum firefight. With regards to the actual brig being split open from outside using EVA, I saw the shutters were blinking yellow, indicating that anyone stepping inside would be taking damage from not having a mask on, to which two of the three personnel that was directly getting involved in the firefight had any internals PPE prepped. Baral died to a combination of not masking up as well as being shot to death. I'm fairly certain Kra'jun wised up and stepped out for a mask at least - actually being smart enough to even bother extracting the prisoner who could've gotten hurt much worse due to the breach, thus they did not achieve Total Zhan Death themselves, which was pretty impressive to me given the 50/50 track record of Tajara characters who either die instantly and hilariously or those who are rugged, lucky survivalists.

This entire round had almost absent or otherwise low quality communication with regards to the head of security - which is extremely bad to read from someone who has been playing for more than sufficient enough amount of time to play the role. Their shot calls were, on the OOC side of things, more than simply questionable, but generally in opposition to any meaningful interaction with raiders that were far more talkative and relatively cooperative than average. If the raiders had simply rolled up and shot us, then Tokash's methodology would have been sound to me, but his mode of operation seems to me to fairly obviously instigate rather than de-escalate, as is the purpose of security to do the latter: to control a situation rather than pursue unnecessary risks. My only impressions of Tokash this round was that they were not particularly interested in handling the situation in a more nuanced or interesting manner than simply just aiming to shut the raiders down and suppress them as a threat or entity entirely - he was completely unmoved by any other perspective that was not his own regarding how to handle the situation leading up to the shootout, which my character warned would happen and would be worst-case scenario.

This was not really an exceptional "Tokash as HOS" round either, this is sort of an ongoing pattern, to me, where most rounds with Tokash running the show in security end the same way. I've seen this particular HOS walk into situations with much forethought, they get severely injured, and then stick around in the area for longer than they should, which risks permanent brain injury or death - which is not something the HOS should be doing. I think the conduct and style of Tokash needs to change a lot going forward - and I think there also needs to be more thought of risk, injury and death, especially for a character that is in the security profession. And, honestly, if the HOS is interested in forcing engagement with the antagonist in terms of creating interesting dialogue - coordinate with the officers to get flanks and encircle the group, hand out the door maglocks and sandbag the cut-off points. The options exist, they are just not being used.

[Fluffy]

As I was present in the round, I can provide direct witness from memory. I will keep it short and pertinent as much as I can.

 

The raiders were, over multiple encounters, invited to leave the ship, the contested fight happened after the third time they came back instead of leaving; they were given ample opportunities in previous encounters to leave.

The raiders (two of) mentioned to have stolen secret technology blueprints (or something on that line), right before leaving the second time; The first encounter they held Tokash at gunpoint in maintenance, with me on the side, and tried to subdue and take him as an hostage.

It is less clear the second time they left, but it was generally believed for them to have took a Doctor as hostage before the standoff, and while leaving one of them said something on the lines of "we're sorry for what will happen, we will be back to get our friend, we won't leave him behind".

 

When they rolled in the third time, inside the Brig from the north maintenance airlock and then afterwards by detonating a wall south of communal, the fight was in my opinion inevitable: You have armed people destroying the ship, that are laying siege and bombing your department, that promised to use whatever it takes to get the prisoner, that tried to take crew hostage (including command staff), and are now aiming assault rifles at you and other officers.

 

We were then flanked from the communal-to-brig doors by another raider, which prompted the firefight. Despite some attempts at retreating that I have seen Tokash do, while trying to leave the decompressing area, we were being slipped by the cleaner grenades and flanked, with one of the raiders appearing and opening the shutters, to which of course we shot at, but it was in my mind pretty clear that we would not have been left to simply leave even if we wanted to. The shutters were being opened and the raiders lining up to shoot inside the brig, and they had suits, so the best bet for survival would have been to down them to avoid being flanked again and evacuate the area when we're sure we're not getting shot. If we could not pull back, our best bet was to push forward and overrun them.

I have personally witnessed at least two attempts of Tokash to pull back, in which he was slipped with a cleaner grenade or shot, so I do not believe the representation of the situation a la him deathgasp bayonet charging them blindless is accurate.

 

In regards to masks, I believe I have seen him using the emergency oxygen tank, and I am sure I have used it myself as soon as I had a moment to wear it, I have even lit an oxygen candle. You can use oxygen tanks with the full face gas mask.

 

If 3 hours of round with multiple encounters, two abduction attempts, stealing secret information from the SCC, two chances given to leave, laying siege to an entire department, a promise of coming back with force to get what they want, a shootout with part of them and finally bombing the ship and trying to acquire a prisoner while denying your ability to retreat aren't considered enough justification for a full force engagement, or interesting, I would be surprised.

[Evandorf]

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

I was Verkenner Hoeven this round and witnessed HOS Tokash and Officer Baral and Kra'jun just willfully walk into a breached communal brig without a spacesuit and engage in a vacuum firefight. With regards to the actual brig being split open from outside using EVA, I saw the shutters were blinking yellow, indicating that anyone stepping inside would be taking damage from not having a mask on, to which two of the three personnel that was directly getting involved in the firefight had any internals PPE prepped. Baral died to a combination of not masking up as well as being shot to death. I'm fairly certain Kra'jun wised up and stepped out for a mask at least - actually being smart enough to even bother extracting the prisoner who could've gotten hurt much worse due to the breach, thus they did not achieve Total Zhan Death themselves, which was pretty impressive to me given the 50/50 track record of Tajara characters who either die instantly and hilariously or those who are rugged, lucky survivalists.

This entire round had almost absent or otherwise low quality communication with regards to the head of security - which is extremely bad to read from someone who has been playing for more than sufficient enough amount of time to play the role. Their shot calls were, on the OOC side of things, more than simply questionable, but generally in opposition to any meaningful interaction with raiders that were far more talkative and relatively cooperative than average. If the raiders had simply rolled up and shot us, then Tokash's methodology would have been sound to me, but his mode of operation seems to me to fairly obviously instigate rather than de-escalate, as is the purpose of security to do the latter: to control a situation rather than pursue unnecessary risks. My only impressions of Tokash this round was that they were not particularly interested in handling the situation in a more nuanced or interesting manner than simply just aiming to shut the raiders down and suppress them as a threat or entity entirely - he was completely unmoved by any other perspective that was not his own regarding how to handle the situation leading up to the shootout, which my character warned would happen and would be worst-case scenario.

This was not really an exceptional "Tokash as HOS" round either, this is sort of an ongoing pattern, to me, where most rounds with Tokash running the show in security end the same way. I've seen this particular HOS walk into situations with much forethought, they get severely injured, and then stick around in the area for longer than they should, which risks permanent brain injury or death - which is not something the HOS should be doing. I think the conduct and style of Tokash needs to change a lot going forward - and I think there also needs to be more thought of risk, injury and death, especially for a character that is in the security profession. And, honestly, if the HOS is interested in forcing engagement with the antagonist in terms of creating interesting dialogue - coordinate with the officers to get flanks and encircle the group, hand out the door maglocks and sandbag the cut-off points. The options exist, they are just not being used.

I enjoy interacting with antagonists and providing meaningful interaction but when faced with a group of raiders claiming to be from Turgonia who stealth various areas of the ship stealing things and speaking like cavemen there's little de-escalation that can occur. I gave them ways out in the leadup meetings and asked them to come peacefully but they refused. I can't ignore blatant threats to the ship and crew.

I agree with you that Tokash is very direct when it comes to dealing with problems but that's intended. There is not much nuance to his methods and as far as combat goes I'd rather leave officers to flank and maneuver as they wish rather than micromanage. My attention was already stretched thin with the burglars badgering him about Yahaolom and getting the consular to pile on.

[kyres1]

For absolute certain clearness, I made this complaint because of the vacuum rushing. I don't think anything else of complaint substance happened the entire round. This isn't a criticism of how the raiders were treated or the validity of the response to their actions; to me, both of these things were rationally handled in-round. The core issue I saw was the suicidal attacking mentioned in the OP. So, I don't know if that's relevant to the rest of the posters. If there were a way to have the ahelp handled in round it would've been preferable but, as I said in the OP, shit happens.

[Scheveningen]

I'll just add that I can otherwise verify the vacuum rushing did actually happen, though. The point of playing a character, to me, is to fear or avoid pain as much as possible. Deliberately going into a vented area without donning a voidsuit for guaranteed vacuum protection struck me as pretty suicidal and the only person that changed their mind was Kra'jun of those 3 that dove into the communal brig.

[Fluffy]

I will just re-outline the part regarding the vacuum, then: I have seen Tokash trying to escape the area more than once, the shutters were closed and it being a vacuum means they cannot be opened without a crowbar, I have myself made at least two attempts to open them using the combitool crowbar, that were unsuccessful.

Being inside the area, and having the attempts to escape it interrupted one way or another, by slippings with cleaner grenades or the raiders opening the airlock trying to perform an incursion on your back and shooting you, makes the escape between more dangerous and impossible, hence your highest chance of survival is given by stopping the threat that keeps coming shoot you in the back first, and escape when it's not happening anymore after; while characters generally try to avoid pain for obvious reasons, a period of time exposed to low pressure/vacuum is still preferable, safer and less painful than being shot in the back by an assault rifle.

Attempts to charge in and get a fire line on someone multiple times, in a dangerous atmosphere, that prevents them from safely and successfully leaving the area can only end with either them dying or a countercharge to stop what is preventing the leaving, which is the reason why 3 people felt had no other option but to charge in (as well as helping their colleagues) and incapacitate the threat, in my opinion.

[VeteranGary]

51 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

I'll just add that I can otherwise verify the vacuum rushing did actually happen, though. The point of playing a character, to me, is to fear or avoid pain as much as possible. Deliberately going into a vented area without donning a voidsuit for guaranteed vacuum protection struck me as pretty suicidal and the only person that changed their mind was Kra'jun of those 3 that dove into the communal brig.

I play Kra'jun, at first I figured the room was only partially vented since the commander and others were actually going in without suits. Didn't notice I was in a void until I got friendly fired and actually glanced over to my status indicators to see the flashy pressure icon, and a second intruder opening one of the shutters to space. Promptly left after that. One officer stayed inside so long he perished, and the HoS was sent to medical for awhile after that. But yeah, I agree it's pretty silly. Just because you can survive a decent amount of time with internals alone in space doesn't mean you should. Personally think it should do exponentially more burn damage for time spent outside. Brute damage would be annoying when your hands and feet randomly snap while trying to escape. But that's for suggestions.

[Evandorf]

I can't speak to how vented or not it was. There was the original breach, but then the shutters were closed and air from nearby halls came in. Baral was lighting oxygen candles but the raiders were opening more shutters as well.  I can only say that I retreated when I was in pain, which in retrospect I think came mainly from being pointblanked but at the time I was unaware of that and I thought it was because area had become fully breached.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

@eddymakaveli, @kermit and I will be handling this. Give us a little bit to get logs please.

[kermit]

Sorry for letting this sit a while. We've all had a chance to review comments, logs and come to a decision now.

The short version is we expect characters, with the limelight on Security more often, to exercise a lot of caution around vented areas of the ship. For this reason, we've ruled largely in favour of the complaint.

In more detail, we came to this decision because we all agreed that Suvek and Deshan pushing into a vented area without protective equipment shows a little bit of a disregard for believable action in the realm of self-preservation. We recognised that the area was – at the time of entering – partially vented and that oxygen masks were taken, but we didn't think these measures were enough as those who entered the partial void were aware that there would be raiders inside moving through/opening shutters and further venting the area. The other 2 officers who did not enter were cautious enough to remain out of the vented area. There was nothing of massive value within the Communal area that could have justified forgoing some self-preservation. None of us believe there was any poor sportsmanship motivating the entry into the area though, just a lack of necessary foresight.

As for the firefight and not disengaging despite being in a void, we didn't see any fault here. It was only after Suvek and Deshan entered that, due to the raiders moving through shutters, that the emergency shutters locked behind them. There were attempts made to leave through the shutters, but when actively being engaged, it makes sense for them to race to incapacitate the raiders preventing them from escaping the void, such that they could then locate the tools required to leave the vented area. 

A note will be added to Evandorf and FluffyGhost's record about exercising said caution around vented areas as Security. All things considered, we didn't really feel the action taken should have been any higher than a note.

This'll be locked & archived in 1-2 days if no one has anything to add.