(locked) Cult round 27th May 2015

[Eliot Clef]

Incidentally, when it was pointed out that, lacking a Chief Engineer it is REQUIRED for engineering to gain technically illegal access to equipment

If there is no CE you are still not allowed to break into areas, even if it's part of your department, if you get caught you can be arrested for it.

You do not need a CE to open secure storage, I have setup the power plenty of times without opening storage as an assistant or an engineer.

Atmos isn't an urgent requirement for the station, it will survive without being altered.

 

Re: Atmos, I'm aware of this and pointed it out during the course of the round, where (IIRC) the engineer I was discussing it with noted that Atmospherics optimization is not necessary.

I'm aware that the AI/Borgs can open secure storage instead, which is usually what happens. I'm not sure how access is gained otherwise, but I was under the impression that it's not uncommon for engineers to break into the CE's office to accomplish this.

[PoZe]

Incidentally, when it was pointed out that, lacking a Chief Engineer it is REQUIRED for engineering to gain technically illegal access to equipment

If there is no CE you are still not allowed to break into areas, even if it's part of your department, if you get caught you can be arrested for it.

You do not need a CE to open secure storage, I have setup the power plenty of times without opening storage as an assistant or an engineer.

Atmos isn't an urgent requirement for the station, it will survive without being altered.

 

First of All, do your remeber that some of Devs said that if plasma tanks are not fully filled then Engine SMES will not get some energy(which I don't belive, but still it could be possible). The second thing is If you will not set up the atmos then in Case of breaches your pump would be empty and filling with vents would take a /long/ time. In Additional I want to add that air on the station is still limited(yes it has giant amount, but it's compasates by mixing O2 and N2) So you must activate and omptimize the mixing chambers so the AIR will not loose, but will increase in the air storage chamber.

[Guest]

You do not need access to secure storage to setup the engine at all.

Grab some metal, make a canister, go to the incinerator, fill the canister from there, take it to the engine, grab tanks from engineering EVA storage.

or ask science for one of their canisters.

Engineers need to loose the mindset of, we can hack into places if we don't have access or someone to give us access.

Not uncommon for them to break into the CE's office no, but this was over Atmos which has no real requirement to be setup.

[Jamini]

I do agree with scopes, there really isn't a need to go breaking into atmos or the CE's office to perform setup. Even if it is standard/expected. Honestly, the issue is an age-old mapping issue. There isn't really enough high-security equipment in secure storage to warrant the blast doors, yet nobody has changed it so that secure storage uses proper airlocks.

Still, security's response from an outside standpoint does seem excessive. Intent should really be taken into account (which it was, but yet you still wasted at minimum 10-15 minutes of someone's time in addition to the brig sentence) when security is judging a crime. In this case, why didn't security simply levy a fine/warning and tell the engineer (or better, a borg) to put the equipment back? The trespass was seemingly well-intentioned, and nothing vital was stolen nor anything sabotaged. Going straight to incarceration for what is ultimately a minor crime is going to do nothing but escalate a situation. Which, in this case, rapidly began to balloon out of control.

Both sides seem at fault here. Nobody is innocent. A little consideration on either side of the equation would have saved both sides leagues of anger and accusations of mishandling. The engineers were in the wrong, but security's response to the situation does not seem at all appropriate either. Ultimately both attitudes result in complaints like this.

[Eliot Clef]

In this case, why didn't security simply levy a fine/warning and tell the engineer (or better, a borg) to put the equipment back? The trespass was seemingly well-intentioned, and nothing vital was stolen nor anything sabotaged. Going straight to incarceration for what is ultimately a minor crime is going to do nothing but escalate a situation. Which, in this case, rapidly began to balloon out of control.

 

I was CSI, so I wasn't actually there to witness it. But supposedly the one doing the trespassing, (Anton?) Bennit immediately ran upon being spotted doing the intrusion. So he kind of put Security on guard, I guess? Even so, I think he only got a three minute sentence for the trespassing. Again, I wasn't actually there in the cells, so this is entirely going off of relevant radio chatter, which may be erroneous or misremembered.

[Hycinth]

As the only staff online during this time, this is what I saw during my time.

Around 3 am I had decided to observe this round, so flying around I missed quite a few things. I missed the initial arrest of Bennit but I was informed of the engine being sabotaged via Ahelp. Flying around I noticed some of the station was losing power to back up their story, so I gave Security permission to go forward and do what they need to do.

Sad to say, I stood by my decision to let Sec crack down. One of you sabotaged the power, quite a bit of the station was in the dark for some time before Sec arrested you yet none of you did anything, and two of you beat the shit out of a borg for little to no reason as far as I know.

Now, you had the Warden who was cult, who could have easily said he released you if you asked him since he was now one of you, but instead you decided to break into the armory and start killing/force converting everyone. Slowly, me and the rest of dead chat watched as you went from 6 people to 15 people and killed those you could not convert, like Terrance Frank.

While Security was no saint this round, when someone /sabotages the engine that is keeping everything running including the air that the station is breathing, and the rest of the department does not fix it after being asked too (( he did ask I did see))/ I tend to think Sec is not the worse of the bunch here.

 

 

So, what you're saying is, you gave permission for sec to go above and beyond to perma an entire department, with no investigation? As an OOC voice? That seems kind of. Well, okay, sure, fine.

As far as the "need to do part", they needed to have a forensic tech in there, see who was responsible, and potentially perma them. Not the entire department. What is gained by permaing everyone, other than now you have to watch a lot of angry people in perma?

And once your cover has been blown as cult/traitor/nuke/ling/whatever, you have to become more aggressive. People aren't going to let you just walk around, and when security has shown a big ole hateboner for you, what are you going to do other than slaughter them wholesale?

 

I tend to think Sec is not the worse of the bunch here.

 

There's the bias. One bad decision does not deserve another. And of course, you don't want to say that sec was anywhere near as bad because you, whether implicit or explicit, condoned whatever actions they took when you told them to go ahead.

[Alberyk]

Right, I believe I had a somewhat important role in this round, since I free engineering and researched most words.

Engineering was arrested, but, I didn't participed in such raid, since I was busy being converted by the blue ipc, together with the csi ipc. Engineering did sabotage, neglect of duty and others crimes. The station needs powers, but, not sure if permabrig would be the real option here, anyway.

So, what worries me is what josh and others told me, that some people were camping arrivals. In this round, I tried to organize the cult, to turn it into a kind of big religious order and to shape the station in Nar-Sie's images, so, mass conversion and turning everything into spooky thing. But, after we capture and convert the warden, everything kinda becomes a mess, people running with weapons. While, I spend most of the round worried about coordinating the cult and giving access, together with cheesy cool titles.

I feel everything turned into a gankfest, since delta told us that he got captured right after arriving in the station, by cultists wielding laser weapons. And the round ended with a summoning of Nar-Sie, which was possible due to manifested ghosts, which I tried to avoid.

[Skull132]

The claim of camping arrivals is something I'm running down on my own. I have already talked to two cultists today, about the events in general, and will be talking to the rest as well. If I find anything, I'll post here, but otherwise, let's leave this complaint to focus on the Security-Engineering interaction.

[Eliot Clef]

And once your cover has been blown as cult/traitor/nuke/ling/whatever, you have to become more aggressive. People aren't going to let you just walk around, and when security has shown a big ole hateboner for you, what are you going to do other than slaughter them wholesale?

 

I tend to think Sec is not the worse of the bunch here.

 

There's the bias. One bad decision does not deserve another. And of course, you don't want to say that sec was anywhere near as bad because you, whether implicit or explicit, condoned whatever actions they took when you told them to go ahead.

 

I'm going to reiterate this again: The fact that the Engineers were cultists was unknown and immaterial except to other cultists. There was no antag hunting, and no knowledge of antags ICly or OOCly that I was aware of. Engineering factionalized due to a minor arrest and brig sentence early in the round, power began failing as a result, and people were arrested for this.

The only thing they had to do to not call attention to themselves was get power running to the station again. They chose to let power fail.

I, as CSI, was never called in to examine anything (Note: I doubt I'd find anything, given the engineering uniform and equipment, although given Lauren's preference for a black jumpsuit this may not have been the case. She was, at any rate, the one witnessed to remove the power cell from the SMES APCs. The others simply didn't fix the damage she caused.), and the culprits (primarily Lauren Blade in terms of actual action) who were letting power fail were pretty vocal on the radio about it.

[Tainavaa]

EvilBrage had the intent to keep engineering there and personally oversee that the power got turned back on. After it was, the engineering personnel were to be released. At least, that's what I've gathered from the LOOC ramblings where EvilBrage stood out.

[Cassie]

I think I need to turn this topic back onto what I made it for.

If people have complaints on the acts of people acting like shitlords who played cultist that round, please make a separate topic. Believe it or not, I cannot represent the dozens of people who played cultist that round because I don't even know all of them. If Josh or any others have an issue with how I talked to them after the drama, we can discuss that via byond pager or a separate complaint topic.

To clear things off, the engineers panicked (and Bennit) when Bennit was arrested because if he was searched (keep in mind this is ten minutes into the game) his tome and tailsman would be discovered, but thankfully he didn't. This explains the engineers strong (except Lauren, who was non-antag's) IC reaction. But that is not important here, I only put that in for the setting.

I need to let everyone know this once more: Not all engineers, including myself knew about the engine actually being sabotaged while they were lipping to sec. Doesn't matter what sec thinks at the stage who is justified in what, I'm only clarifying this from an OOC angle for people who think we actually did that.

It is hard to disprove metagaming as all it takes is two players, one skype client, and one player who is ghosting. No one else in game has to know. I can't prove metagaming - I can definitely point to powergaming however. The actions, rather than "what could be happening", is what is irking me here; I feel that engineering acting suspicious is what pushed sec to the following...

Now. Here's the most important point I need to emphasize which is the basis of this complaint topic. We did nothing that is compatible with corporate regulations that would justify a perma. I understand being arrested for a temporary/demotion charge, as much as I don't like being arrested I would not have complained at all as arrests are expected and we were prepared for potential arrests after the first one.

BUT. I do not understand why we had "mutiny" and/or "sedition" slapped onto our charges; which are transfer until holding charges. There were no command members on the station, and I welcome anyone to read the definition of these charges on the wiki.

 

 

I believe the mutiny and sedition charges were slapped onto the engineer's sentences as an abuse of power; it sent the antag round into a spiral of chaos as other cultists who got influenced by this went from the seeds of planning and establishing things to paranoia to "OH LOOK WE'RE IN PERMA! WE'RE FUGITIVES, THEY'LL SHOOT US ON SIGHT. IT'S THEM OR US!", and that is why this topic exists.

It was a terrible round, and while many cultists were being shitlords I do blame it on you for this action you took which was the catalyst.

[Tainavaa]

Which is directly related to my previous post.

Honestly if everyone didn't overreact and just explode in tush terrorism and let it play out, I think it would have ended up just fine. You can't rightly place blame on someone especially when there were other, more rational courses of action. Especially since after you had the warden under control, the cult literally had security under control. You could have converted/killed them, and had security on your side and walk out of the brig free and possibly with more in your ranks. Instead, you were all extremely upset and decided the only course of action was to raid the armory, shoot people, force convert them, and generally sink the station into a state of anarchy.

Because let's be honest. Once you walked out of that brig. Who would have confronted you? The dead/converted officers? Probably not.

Even if you didn't escape and had let it play out without incident. What would have happened? The warden would have ensured the power was on, and he would have released all of engineering back into the station to flutter around and do your dark deeds.

[Cassie]

Tainavaa you are completely missing the point.

Security should not ever slap unsuitable charges on people because they don't like them, or because they're "suspicious". It does not matter, it's very irrelevant at this stage. It doesn't matter, what the cultists did to protect their image is their own stuff; I am talking about the responsibility of the sec players here.

They were in the wrong to use mutiny and sedition charges to apprehend a group of people instead of applying the correct charges to them - in fact, not only is it a form of playing security wrong, it is powergaming. Even if we were all actual engine sabotagers the arrest + charges are grotesque and improper and I want you to actually have a good look at what is wrong here.

There is no corporate regulation that they could have punished us with correctly (even if they were right) that was justified a perma. They had to pull out an irrelevant regulation to try to get us in perma. That is the point.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[keinto]

Now. Here's the most important point I need to emphasize which is the basis of this complaint topic. We did nothing that is compatible with corporate regulations that would justify a perma.

 

... my decision to place them in the permabrig was mostly due to the fact that the actual cellblock was running out of power very quickly. The plan was to move them once power was restored, but as I stated earlier, that never actually happened because - again - I was attacked.

[Cassie]

No keinto. When we were arrested, we were charged with mutiny/sedition; regardless if the power came back or not we would be in perma.

The charge of mutiny and sedition, where did they come from?

[Guest]

Rather then respond with long walls of thick, meaty text in which we argue on the semantics, I decided to take a more direct, simple approach to this intellectual debate we've got going on.

>Security babysits engineering since round start

>Secborg decides to make sure everyone's alright inside from time to time

>Finally, Security decides to arrest the whole department because they're too bloody impatient to even wait for the cult to do something cultist.

>Oh fuck he said Atmosia permabrig he!

>Permabrig nerds, cry harder :^)

>Cult suddenly turns the tides of battle

>Completely wrecks security and summons daddy Nar-nar

>OH MY GOD YOU P2WIN MONSTERS, SOMEONE ANTAG BAN THESE PEOPLE OH GOD MY ROLEPLAY IS RUINED!

By all means, if you intend to powergame like a motherfucker and have the AI, its borgs and your whole sec force babysit your only somewhat metaconfirmed cultists since round start because you cant wait for your greentext, you've forfeit your right to roleplay.

You cant just do this, play to win and then whine when your greentext target robusts you instead.

If you want to RP, then you will force yourself to do the ICly reasonable thing and not look for excuses to waltz into engineering and find their cult shittery. If you want to powergame, do so at the risk of being robust in turn.

The concept of demanding that the antagonists let you win, and then demanding they be antag-banned for refusing to let you win is awful and ridiculous.

You decided to abandon RP with your actions and robust engineering in a hideously unsportsmanlike manner, immediately shoving them in the permabrig on stacked max sentence charges, because you felt like you needed to get off to power. However, you were outrobust by the atagonists and murderized in turn, with the same ammount of RP you showed them.

Respect is a two way street, dont go out of your way to engage the round antagonist in combat just so you can yell "M-My RP" when you get robust by your target.

If you act like a huge dick IC, the round antagonist might just kill you for it. If you want to avoid this at all costs, modify your character not to be a dick ICly to avoid these reprecussions, however OOC protection for your character after they've outright proven themselves a threat to antagonists isnt something you can just conjure out of thin air.

[keinto]

I know. But it was something that stood out to me since page one, and I'm interested what Evilbrage's explanation will be. I still don't agree with the mutiny charges, and what not.

[Eliot Clef]

-snip-

 

This is a stilted, one-sided caricature of what happened that doesn't accurately represent the behavior or outcomes for both sides in any meaningful way, and demonstrates a wildly unfair bias in favor of the Cultists. (As a point of clarification: I was one of the Security Cultists who aided in the jailbreak and I do agree that permabrigging the Engineers was way too much.)

While I believe that running down the sequence of events from my perspective is most likely not productive at this point in the thread, I would be willing to do so if somebody feels it is called for. This, however, is just unproductive aggression that will provoke more bad feelings to no particular end. Please don't do this.

[Baka]

I shall be handling the Sec Vs Engineering issue. Skull will be handling the camping.

As I have read:

An engineer breaks into atmos. Because of this, it was caught and said engineer was arrested and released. During this time, they were riling their department, probably under the guise that there were other, newer cultists, to get them to act and make threats. This threat was about not setting up the engine and disrupting power and essentially work. The engine came up eventually, and during this time a few of the engineers were goading security and being disruptive over comms. After the engine was set up, Security came up and arrested people to set an example. This involved permabrigging.

From what I have gathered, that this was not under the guise of them being cultist, more so that an engineer was arrested and instead of waiting out the term and learning from their mistake, they went loud with a threat. No matter how empty it was, it was still a threat, and the quickest way to get security on your ass is to make threats and behave snide over comms.

However,

Security could had handle this case a bit better. Instead of jailing everyone, whether they were involved or not, perhaps next time take the louder disruptive parties and remove them, and for the ones that aren't really doing anything, try to gain control of the scenario. Make sure too you have evidence of the people you're arresting. Yes, there was evidence in the form of the comms, but those were just a few people and you don't have to make examples of everyone.

[Tainavaa]

Cassie, I think you might be missing the point. You are blaming them for everything that ensued. I am stating that that is completely untrue. You don't say "But that doesn't count" and it just doesn't count. It counts, it counts for a lot actually.

As I said. If the engineering cult didn't blow up in butt mad, chances are, the outcomes would have been much more reasonable and much, much more enjoyable for all parties involved. Including the observers. What COULD have happened was that you could have worked around the ridiculous charges and went with it, done whatever, got released, and got your revenge later on in a much more enjoyable and satisfying fashion. Especially if it was a "taste of your own medicine" kind of way. That would have been pretty awesome. What COULD have happened if you decided not to comply is something I outlined earlier. NOBODY would have been the wiser. Literally nobody, except the observers.

Is security blameless? Maybe not. I thought it was a good idea what Brage had personally but you don't have to agree. You weren't going to be in the permabrig permanently. People think that because it has "perma-" in the name that it MUST be a permanent solution. I disagree, and in fact, I think it should be utilized much more. And in this way, it was supposed to be used as a motivator. And instead of roleplaying and rolling with it and see what comes of it, everyone explodes in just ANAL ANGER upon being detained and completely forgo any roleplay in favor of slinging shit at each other because "I DON'T LIKE THING THAT HAPPENED".

One thing I CAN say for certain is that engineering cult is by NO means innocent on ANY account. Once you had control, you HAD control. That includes all the territory that comes with being IN control. What you decided to do with is take your OOC anger and manifest it IC in the most tangible way possible, instead of actually roleplaying it.

[Guest]

-snip-

This, however, is just unproductive aggression that will provoke more bad feelings to no particular end. Please don't do this.

 

People get mad when they lose the game.

I am aware of that, on some occasions I too, have gotten mad that I have lost the game.

However, claiming that you will ensure all people responsible for making you lose the game will be antag banned to prevent this from further happening is simply being a prick.

Big meaty walls of text and pointless arguments as to what either side could have done are irrelevant. What is set in stone is that Security lost the round, and as a result Josh, who was on security's side demanded antag bans be handed out because the cult beat him.

If you want to fight the antags, do not whine and demand bans when the antags win instead of you.

[Eliot Clef]

People get mad when they lose the game.

I am aware of that, on some occasions I too, have gotten mad that I have lost the game.

However, claiming that you will ensure all people responsible for making you lose the game will be antag banned to prevent this from further happening is simply being a prick.

Big meaty walls of text and pointless arguments as to what either side could have done are irrelevant. What is set in stone is that Security lost the round, and as a result Josh, who was on security's side demanded antag bans be handed out because the cult beat him.

If you want to fight the antags, do not whine and demand bans when the antags win instead of you.

 

Josh was not a participant to the best of my knowledge, although somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. He was a Moderator-Observer, the only one on during this round, and most likely flooded with ahelps/outrage and unreasonable social situations. As he was not a participant, it cannot be said that he was attempting to wield his mod authority out of simple outrage that his "side" lost.

The topic of possible antagbans appears to be directed not at the Jailbreak situation, but at the cultists who took up arms and started snatching people fresh out of cryo/arrivals before they even have a chance to orient themselves. In essence, spawn camping.

[Tainavaa]

No, Josh was not a participant. He was merely an observer.

Also, I am not against some antag-bans here personally. People have shown clear inability to cope with a situation and could not handle losing. EvilBrage in particular handled losing pretty well, even though he didn't enjoy what the cult did after the jailbreak. In fact, he said they were shitlers afterward but during the events he played it out.

What I said seems to hold true. People were unable to cope with unexpected thing happening and instead of roleplaying it out, it was flown off the handle because thing happened that wasn't what they wanted. There was no restraint whatsoever, and ended up with guns and literally shooting people in the head ON SIGHT to down them and force convert them. People who had absolutely no idea what was even going on. I've seen Lauren Blade in particular do this twice right outside the brig.

Honestly what security did was questionable at best considering the intent was not to keep them there permanently. I don't think any action should be taken against the members of security.

I want to reinforce the idea of antag-bans though. That was just completely ridiculous, and I have every reason to believe it was done in bad faith.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[Baka]

Josh was observing.

[Guest]

My previous post only requires minor modification to reflect that.

Josh was still cheering for security, as evidenced by his previous posts in the thread and by the fact that he usually mains security.

What I see here is security using excessive force, and cultgineering responding with excessive force of their own. The matter should have stayed entirely IC, with security or engineering emerging as the victor of their bloody outburst of carnage. Instead, we have threats of antag-bans.

Antagonists oppose the crew. These antagonists opposed security and won. At which point were rules violated, in this turn of events?