Remove Succumb

[Lordnesh]

There's been a recent spat of people succumbing in order to avoid roleplay that doesn't revolve around conflict, or the build up to said conflict. This not only robs Medical of gameplay, but leaves us having to explain why X person died when they shouldn't have. I don't know what it was intended for, but I don't think it was as a get out of roleplay card.

[LforLouiseeee]

Succumb shouldn't be removed. People who use it to avoid RP, or to rob medical of gameplay, should be ahelped. Succumb, when used properly - and preferably outside of medical - can be used as a good RP tool.

[Loorey]

Succumb in itself isn't a bad verb, the times I've seen succumb used it was not used to "avoid roleplay" as you say it but rather get out of a round that they do not want to play anymore. That was the initial thought of why the verb exists after all. Last round it was used right at the end of said round and said person would've been in medical for way longer than roundend. I don't think it should be removed. 

[veeqies]

3 minutes ago, LforLouiseeee said:

Succumb shouldn't be removed. People who use it to avoid RP, or to rob medical of gameplay, should be ahelped. Succumb, when used properly - and preferably outside of medical - can be used as a good RP tool.

As much as I agree with this, it shouldn't be all too reliant on the players' good will, not every issue has to require ahelp, some may just be solved by in-game mechanics. Instead, some sort of a timer to prevent people from doing it early would work better than keeping it as it is or removing it outright. I'd say succumbing is fine if you spend like 10 minutes in medical in critical condition without any improvement.

Edited yesterday at 01:38 by veeqies

[Lent23]

The roleplay in question:

This is silly tbh, let people leave the round if they're dying and they want to leave the round. Ahelping for frivolous stuff like this is silly. Just roleplay it out. You lost a patient, it happens all the time.

[Lordnesh]

3 minutes ago, Loorey said:

Succumb in itself isn't a bad verb, the times I've seen succumb used it was not used to "avoid roleplay" as you say it but rather get out of a round that they do not want to play anymore. That was the initial thought of why the verb exists after all. Last round it was used right at the end of said round and said person would've been in medical for way longer than roundend. I don't think it should be removed. 

At that point they can just ghost. Succumbing doesn't just affect the player, it affects the people around them as well. If they wanna afk while being treated in medical, that's fine. Succumbing means that all the hard work medical put into making sure that person doesn't die goes up in flames for no reason other than the person is bored.

[Loorey]

1 minute ago, Lordnesh said:

At that point they can just ghost

1 minute ago, Lordnesh said:

Succumbing means that all the hard work medical put into making sure that person doesn't die goes up in flames for no reason other than the person is bored.

Succumb is a clear signifier that a person is now out of a round. In the matter of both being a medical and a security player myself, I'd rather have that clear signifier that they want to be out of the round (and thus, died after succumbing) than have an SSD person with no interaction sitting in front of me. I personally don't find it disruptive at all from a medical player perspective, you can just move on. And the "gameplay" disappearing, oh well. I'll just move on and roleplay with someone.  

[veeqies]

6 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

At that point they can just ghost. Succumbing doesn't just affect the player, it affects the people around them as well. If they wanna afk while being treated in medical, that's fine. Succumbing means that all the hard work medical put into making sure that person doesn't die goes up in flames for no reason other than the person is bored.

I suppose simply ghosting works too, yes.

 

8 minutes ago, Lent23 said:

The roleplay in question:

This is silly tbh, let people leave the round if they're dying and they want to leave the round. Ahelping for frivolous stuff like this is silly. Just roleplay it out. You lost a patient, it happens all the time.

Having someone die while undergoing medical care is a big deal to 'just roleplay it out', I can see where Lordnesh's point is coming from, such actions may carry appropriate consequences.

Do keep in mind that you're not playing the game by yourself and making the experience worse for everyone else simply because you're bored is not the way to act on a public server.

Objectively, ghosting serves the same purpose as succumbing in such situation.

Edited yesterday at 01:49 by veeqies

[Lent23]

4 minutes ago, veeqies said:

I suppose simply ghosting works too, yes.

 

Having someone die while undergoing medical care is a big deal to 'just roleplay it out', I can see where Lordnesh's point is coming from, such actions may carry appropriate consequences.

Do keep in mind that you're not playing the game by yourself and making the experience worse for everyone else simply because you're bored is not the way to act on a public server.

Objectively, ghosting serves the same purpose as succumbing in such situation.

"Ghosting serves the same purpose, but we get to work on your SSD body" is a bad case for removing succumb, sorry.

[veeqies]

2 minutes ago, Lent23 said:

"Ghosting serves the same purpose, but we get to work on your SSD body" is a bad case for removing succumb, sorry.

Dying because you're bored and forcing medical to possibly face malpractice charges and causing a security investigation to take place isn't a good reason to allow unrestricted succumbing, because yes, someone dying under medical care usually warrants an investigation. That's just a dick move to succumb out of boredom with blatant disregard of other players' experiences. I've already explained that ghosting serves as the most neutral option, you may see it as 'Ghosting serves the same purpose, but we get to work on your SSD body' all you want, though, that reply alone sums your entire point up.

[evandorf]

27 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

There's been a recent spat of people succumbing in order to avoid roleplay

This feels hyperbolic and an assumption of intent, and even if we had stated intent from those players the suggestion seems reactionary to me.

There are instances where succumb is useful, especially if you are running a gimmick where the intended ending is to die. A focused and supplied medical team can keep a person alive and recover from even 1 - 2 % brain activity.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be bad to have succumb give a unique message on death, so that everyone is aware of what happened and can make better OOC and IC choices in the aftermath.

[Lordnesh]

26 minutes ago, evandorf said:

This feels hyperbolic and an assumption of intent, and even if we had stated intent from those players the suggestion seems reactionary to me.

There are instances where succumb is useful, especially if you are running a gimmick where the intended ending is to die. A focused and supplied medical team can keep a person alive and recover from even 1 - 2 % brain activity.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be bad to have succumb give a unique message on death, so that everyone is aware of what happened and can make better OOC and IC choices in the aftermath.

I have literally seen people post in both LOOC, OOC, and Discord saying they Succumbed to avoid certain types of roleplay (ie medical/brig). I am not being hyperbolic. 

Edited yesterday at 02:36 by Lordnesh

[evandorf]

7 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

I have literally seen people post in both LOOC, OOC, and Discord saying they Succumbed to avoid certain types of roleplay (ie medical/brig). I am not being hyperbolic. 

If that's the case then I agree with @LforLouiseeee and avoidant behavior should be ahelped, but it needs to be dealt with by the moderation team so the behavior can be documented.

[Acetrea]

I mean... prompting a security investigation just stimulates more RP, doesn't it? Also, it's very very unlikely that someone will succumb in an extended canon round, and then be permanently dead and cause your character to actually face malpractice charges. They will always be associated with antaggery. But sometimes death is important for the story. I don't think succumb should be removed.

[meep109]

A lot of brig processing roleplay is really painful and boring to go through. I know medical wants gameplay but I feel like someone going through 20 minutes of brig processing/brig time is way much more boring and unfun then medical losing a patient. Medical can move on and continue roleplay, but most brig roleplay is just stonewalled, so I don't think succumbing to escape that is really a bad thing

[evandorf]

38 minutes ago, meep109 said:

A lot of brig processing roleplay is really painful and boring to go through. I know medical wants gameplay but I feel like someone going through 20 minutes of brig processing/brig time is way much more boring and unfun then medical losing a patient. Medical can move on and continue roleplay, but most brig roleplay is just stonewalled, so I don't think succumbing to escape that is really a bad thing

There's also the fact that this isn't the only way to avoid brig/medical if that's what you want. If I don't want to be caught or identified I'll setup an explosive implant, for example.

If we remove succumb under the argument that players shouldn't have a way to avoid brig/med play, then you'll need to remove many other things. I don't think that argument is sustainable, however, giving succumb a unique death message is still something I think would be useful.

[Lordnesh]

Just finished a round where an antag succumbed at 100% Brain activity rather than be treated and taken captive.

11 minutes ago, meep109 said:

A lot of brig processing roleplay is really painful and boring to go through. I know medical wants gameplay but I feel like someone going through 20 minutes of brig processing/brig time is way much more boring and unfun then medical losing a patient. Medical can move on and continue roleplay, but most brig roleplay is just stonewalled, so I don't think succumbing to escape that is really a bad thing

Ghosting accomplishes the same thing without spoiling gameplay and roleplay opportunities for other players. If someone's SSD they can still be treated by medical and processed by security.

[Melariara]

2 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

Just finished a round where an antag succumbed at 100% Brain activity rather than be treated and taken captive.

This honestly sounds like a bug, as you used to be able to only succumb at <20% BA or thereabouts. If this is true, I strongly encourage you to make a bug report.

 

Otherwise, keep this thread a tame and healthy discussion please, everyone.

[evandorf]

4 minutes ago, Melariara said:

This honestly sounds like a bug, as you used to be able to only succumb at <20% BA or thereabouts. If this is true, I strongly encourage you to make a bug report.

 

Otherwise, keep this thread a tame and healthy discussion please, everyone.

That's how it should work, though I personally last used succumb maybe two weeks ago so something may have changed with a lot of the code updating that's been happening.

 

[Lordnesh]

Died about 10 seconds after I took this.

Edited yesterday at 03:38 by Lordnesh

[NM_]

As a staunch medical player since I joined the server years ago, I can safely tell you I have no interest in pursuing mechanical treatment for someone who expressly does not want to be there. The reasons why are between them and the mods if they break existing rules. 

It is no skin off my bones if they succumb so I can go back to what drives the server for me - RP. Holding someone hostage and forced to engage with me in a very deliberate way that's against their will gives me no sense of satisfaction or interest to be part of it. I'd rather be on my way to other aspects of the round I enjoy. I'm aware that we often-times have to engage with elements we might not enjoy - I point you to Evandorf and Meep's responses, who capture the breadth of the argument. By the time they reach medical in such a state, chances are the climax is over - engaging in a meaningless, non-canonical, tired procedure of their cuffed march from Medical to Security is an epilogue very few (and rightfully so, at times) care to retread over and over every gimmick.

I support having a unique message to convey someone's succumbed. I don't support removing it. Adjusting it to be closer to a lower BA threshold if the 100% claim is true would be something else to consider.

Edited yesterday at 03:38 by NM_

[zha everything broken]

At a glance, it does look like succumb still uses pointmed, not brainmed. I don't have a horse in this race but that will be bugfixed tomorrow, whether anything happens to the verb or not.

EDIT: Oh Evandorf pulled a screenshot while I was looking at it and writing this post lmao.

Edited yesterday at 03:43 by zha everything broken

[ASmallCuteCat]

I'm on the fence here - I don't think anyone should be forced to go through RP and/or interactions they have no interest in, but there's already tools in the uplink for antags to accomplish a quick and sudden death. Using the Succumb verb to achieve that quick and sudden death without having to spend the required crystals feels a little gamey to me? If you want to play an antag who doesn't want to be taken prisoner, then budget crystals so that you can buy the item that accomplishes that.

I can also imagine it may be frustrating for a group gimmick if one of your group suddenly drops dead and leaves you one man short, especially if you already had a plan to free them in the works.

[Arbiter_Ambrose]

24 minutes ago, Lordnesh said:

Just finished a round where an antag succumbed at 100% Brain activity rather than be treated and taken captive.

Ghosting accomplishes the same thing without spoiling gameplay and roleplay opportunities for other players. If someone's SSD they can still be treated by medical and processed by security.

Lordnesh, I get where you are coming from here, I get you like treating people, I probably would too if I got into med, but, going SSD to avoid that roleplay is uh, not a rules-legal way to go about it either.

I agree mainly with meep and evandorf, though I personally am willing to go through other methods to die than succumbing since I never knew it existed until like, 3 rounds ago?

Revenant also makes a very strong point, it does suck if your teammate just dies without confirming anything with you and you wanted to free them, when they COULD have survived.

[TheGreyWolf]

27 minutes ago, evandorf said:

That's how it should work, though I personally last used succumb maybe two weeks ago so something may have changed with a lot of the code updating that's been happening.

 

it would seem humans actually use

edit: Forgot another variant, of course.

Edited 23 hours ago by TheGreyWolf