An Idea To Toy With Genetics

[Skull132]

Okay, this is an idea I've been toying wiht for a bit now. So I have it rather fleshed out.

Here's the main issue with genetics: it's super easy to get all of the powers and goof around with them, and there's no actual challenge/risk involved. Nor is there any work involved if you're good enough. And getting good enough is not that hard.

Here is my proposal on solving it:

Each mob already has a DNA datum. We'll refer to this datum as the genome from now on. We will add a "damage" variable to the genome. The more damaged your genome, the more funky shit will start happening to you. Anything from going blind, losing limb control, ending with cascading organ failure and death.

Now, how does the genome get damaged? Two ways. First is any and all genetic modification, regardless of outcome. At first, small amounts. So there exists a safe amount of SE injections you can do without feeling ill and starting to get injured. But if you keep jabbing yourself with auto injectors to find out where the powers are, you should end up dead. Why do this? To discourage self-testing. You should value your life, and this now adds a risk to being a genetics test subject.

Second, all powers active have a chance to cause genome damage. The more potent the power, the higher that chance. And the more powers you have active on you, the higher that chance (it's going to stack). Once again, why? To introduce tactical choice to selecting your powers, and to make you value them. Also to provide an actual fucking downside to insane combinations, such as TK/X-Ray/Remote View.

As for remedies. There will be a small selection.

Genome damage in and of itself cannot be repaired. It's your choice on how badly you want to risk your health.

Incoming genome damage can be mitigated with a new drug that will be created. So: have a geneticist on stand-by, and you can extend your safe-time with multiple high tier powers, or enable further testing. This also breeds cross-department roleplay!

Effects that genome damage will cause:

No clue. But they're specific details. They'll go from mild inconvenience to disabling to deadly, though.

[Hunnewle]

I LIKE this idea!

[TrickingTrapster]

Yes, this is a good concept. I don't like how people just keep self-testing every round. Though, maybe you should have like, a more suitable use for the powers? I always see only the geneticists with the powers, no one else really ever gets them, and the geneticists are never asked to really... -DO- anything besides cloning. And that's a thing even the doctors and chemists are able to do if they can get to it. Just an idea, but powers seem relatively useless station-wide at the moment.

[UnknownMurder]

If I may recommend a change to make the 'easy-grabbing' genetically codes to give yourself superpowers, and of course to goof to a hard problem-solving of your preferred kind. There is no way having genetic codes are THAT easy. Currently, it's easy as changing numbers. Take Tele-Science as example, it requires Math problem-solving. I would like to suggest to merge this with your ideas, it's just that; Geneticist shouldn't be an easy job.

[ForgottenTraveller]

All my Yes. So much yes it hurts.

Also early stage effects before the bad ones. Auto balding hair. And then to full bald. and UI mods count to it as well.

[MagnificentMelkior]

This idea is somewhat redundant and I don't like that. What do I mean by this? Blindness is already a genetic disability, and you want a seperate cause of blindness here. Genetic Damage is already a thing, and you want a seperate thing called Genome Damage. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And I also really don't like the idea of genome damage being irreparable. Why not just inflict Genetic Damage, which already exists? You can die from that too. Also, Ryetalyn should cure genetic damage: that's the whole stated purpose of the drug. But that doesn't work, or doesn't seem to anyway.

With all that said: Why do you want to nerf genetics so hard? Most of the functions of genetics (but not all) can be replicated by other departments. If having xray vision wrecks your body, then 1: its no longer equivalent to the vampire power, which is a minor bit of lameness (I like the idea that genetics is a way to modify the biomechanisms of the human body in the same way that other biological entities naturally (or supernaturally) achieved. 2: It becomes drastically inferior to other options. Because of how fast chemicals diminish, you could not just keep yourself on drugs to maintain xray vision for any real amount of time. And you want to inflict irreperable damage with each successive syringe injection, so curing it and reinjecting it, which is already a huge pain in the inventory slots, isn't a good option either. Implementing this suggestion would nerf genetics into the abyss. It would not be possible for anyone except a prepared chemist or the geneticist themselves to use the gene mods, which I don't think is a good thing as it limits the departments utility to the station as a whole, and even for a genticist it would be pretty much unplayable.

[Skull132]

Drugs can have custom metabo rates that slow down their expiration.

Genetic defects are an ineffective downside, due to the ease with which even a novice geneticist can counter them.

The presently existing genetic damage is also an ineffective downside, due to it lacking enough aggression to have any meaningful impact. It never really comes into play in a form other than a.minor nuisance.

And yes, while all of the functions can be replicated by other departments, such as RnD, they are usually locked behind other walls. Example being the fact that thermals are impossible to construct in 9/10 rounds unless you're really fucking dedicated and know how to powergame science.

As a last note, a bit of a clarification. Having one major power active probably shouldn't cause regular damage, even with the new system. Carelessly stacking them, like some geneticists do, should.

[Guest]

Yes, but could we also remove the ability to use block injectors? I'm a bit leery at being able to inject the hulk block into yourself with 100% success rate. Literally modding strengths to yourself is just... ick.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Yes, but could we also remove the ability to use block injectors? I'm a bit leery at being able to inject the hulk block into yourself with 100% success rate. Literally modding strengths to yourself is just... ick.

Have you ever played a geneticist? Because without block injectors it becomes impossible to ever construct an ideal genome without good luck. If you don't believe me try it yourself.

Drugs can have custom metabo rates that slow down their expiration.

Genetic defects are an ineffective downside, due to the ease with which even a novice geneticist can counter them.

The presently existing genetic damage is also an ineffective downside, due to it lacking enough aggression to have any meaningful impact. It never really comes into play in a form other than a.minor nuisance.

And yes, while all of the functions can be replicated by other departments, such as RnD, they are usually locked behind other walls. Example being the fact that thermals are impossible to construct in 9/10 rounds unless you're really fucking dedicated and know how to powergame science.

As a last note, a bit of a clarification. Having one major power active probably shouldn't cause regular damage, even with the new system. Carelessly stacking them, like some geneticists do, should.

Yes, drugs can have custom metabo rates, but how granular can it be/ how small will you actually make it? How long is a 5 unit dose going to last? Unless its something like 10 minutes its not going to be feasible to work with, and even then I doubt that it will be usable by Urist McDetective. And again, permanent damage is a horrible idea. Nothing else I've ever seen in ss13 does permanent, irreparable damage and there is a reason for that. If you've got a problem with the genetic damage thing, fix that. Don't stack some other thematically identical system on top of it.

As for thermals, I don't know how to make them myself because I never played R&d, but I know (from watching isiah fraser) that you can powergame science even faster than you can powergame genetics. There is a material cost to it, but thats because its balanced out by a total certainty of outcome which you can't get in genetics (or xenobiology, which is also all random numbers, plus a trivial chemical cost and low danger. The parallels for genetics are the hyronalin/dylovene you need, which you have to get from somewhere else to begin your testing on live humans, and the danger of breaking your bones and suffering other radiological effects if you are too eager with your testing.) Why do you want to implement this system? What pros do you think it will offer? Because Evilbrage's thread seems to have a much better central premise: Limit the availability of powers, rather than nerf them. An idea from there that I like and would support is removing injectors except for block injectors, and making multi-gene changes require the DNA modifier. I think an H.G. Wells time machine setup would be cool: the operator can be inside the machine and use it on himself. I think the computer should still be the main way of using the machine though. You could lock out the subject inside the machine with a button where the button to trap them in the machine is.

[TrickingTrapster]

I think the main premise of genetics itself is lost here. I don't know from the top of my head if the powers are supposed to be known, but I don't think the powers are the reason genetics exists IC. Genetics exists to have the proto-people there for organ transplants and cleaning cloning defects. The powers may be the main attraction for most people, but the reason genetics is even built into the station is definitely NOT for the powers. At least, that's what I think.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The current lore surrounding genetic powers is that they are known. However, genetic changes are temporary and the genome tends to just revert back to its vanilla state and each injection becomes less affective. So if a geneticist hides 40 hulk injectors in his satchel when going through the Odin, he'd be hulk for 4 hours on the first injection, 2 hours on the second, an hour on the third, 20 minutes on the fourth, 10 minutes on the fifth. . . Then eventually the injectors are useless.

This is meant to explain how the powers aren't permanent, IE why people with powers at round-end don't have them at the beginning of the next round, and why the powers require different blocks to be activated or whatever.

[TrickingTrapster]

Ah... I had no idea. Still, my point stands - I don't think the IC reason for genetics existing is to give people powers.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Ah... I had no idea. Still, my point stands - I don't think the IC reason for genetics existing is to give people powers.

Genetics serves multiple purposes but research into modifying SEs and the results of these modifications are indeed a purpose of genetics.

[Zundy]

Mite be cuul if genetics could make people harder better faster stronger in general without giving them super powers I.E organs that process toxins better, making folks generally tougher, stonger bones etc.

[Skull132]

I mean, I could retool genetic damage to work the same way genome damage would. The only reason why I'm hesitant to do that is the grand mess SS13 code is and has become. It is often easier to add something new, rather than to trudge through the old shite and change it to fit your purpose.

Also, genetics is by far the easiest way to gain access to inhumane and round-breaking sillyness. I spent a year dedicated to learning how to powergame science, and I had an amazing mentor. By far, the easiest one to powergame in a legit fashion was genetics. You cannot argue this point.

As for the pros? I think I explained them. It shifts the focus of genetics to mechanically enforce the roleplay expectations (such as self-testing being actually fucking dangerous, and powers being unknown/dangerous/scary). We could also review the removal of all present major powers, and a shift in power design to something more along the lines of what Zundy suggested.

[Guest]

Yes, but could we also remove the ability to use block injectors? I'm a bit leery at being able to inject the hulk block into yourself with 100% success rate. Literally modding strengths to yourself is just... ick.

Have you ever played a geneticist? Because without block injectors it becomes impossible to ever construct an ideal genome without good luck. If you don't believe me try it yourself.

 

It took 20 minutes for me yesterday as a bald geneticist to get hulk, TK, morphing, no prints, and x-ray. It is stupidly easy to construct the ideal genome with or without good luck. If I wasn't focusing some of my effort on roleplaying or talking, I could've had all of the genetic powers in one sitting.

I ran into blindness once, but it was an extremely easy fix.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Yes, but could we also remove the ability to use block injectors? I'm a bit leery at being able to inject the hulk block into yourself with 100% success rate. Literally modding strengths to yourself is just... ick.

Have you ever played a geneticist? Because without block injectors it becomes impossible to ever construct an ideal genome without good luck. If you don't believe me try it yourself.

 

It took 20 minutes for me yesterday as a bald geneticist to get hulk, TK, morphing, no prints, and x-ray. It is stupidly easy to construct the ideal genome with or without good luck. If I wasn't focusing some of my effort on roleplaying or talking, I could've had all of the genetic powers in one sitting.

I ran into blindness once, but it was an extremely easy fix.

I see. I assumed time figures were to get a 100% completely ideal genemap with an ideal genome in your body, but yea if you just stop when you get what you wanted you on average will have lower times. Anyway, I didn't say its impossible to construct an ideal genome without good luck. I said that without block injectors. I suppose an approach to genetics that favored getting what you need and getting out instead of getting a perfect genome may be able to be done without block injectors, but getting the perfected form instead of the quick-robust form is going to practically require block injectors, or perhaps dumping a river of antiradiation drugs into the monkey in the tube to reduce random mutations to a low chance.

 

I mean, I could retool genetic damage to work the same way genome damage would. The only reason why I'm hesitant to do that is the grand mess SS13 code is and has become. It is often easier to add something new, rather than to trudge through the old shite and change it to fit your purpose.

But then you are just making the code even more complex... but more importantly, there should not be two seperate types of genetic damage, for the purposes of making sense to medbay who are confronted with the issue.

 

Also, genetics is by far the easiest way to gain access to inhumane and round-breaking sillyness. I spent a year dedicated to learning how to powergame science, and I had an amazing mentor. By far, the easiest one to powergame in a legit fashion was genetics. You cannot argue this point.

This I would believe, and for this reason I would not oppose tweaks to genetics that would help to limit the spreadability and portability of genetic powers (remove bulk injectors, need dna modifier to use that effect.) as I've touched upon in Evilbrage's thread, but this proposed change would truly cripple genetics. Genetics has some of the strictest IC requirements, including advanced psychological screening, of any non heads. This is justified by the potential power of the profession (although again, I would not mind certain tweaks.)

 

As for the pros? I think I explained them. It shifts the focus of genetics to mechanically enforce the roleplay expectations (such as self-testing being actually fucking dangerous, and powers being unknown/dangerous/scary). We could also review the removal of all present major powers, and a shift in power design to something more along the lines of what Zundy suggested.

Those roleplay expectations are not supported by Aurora Lore, at least not anywhere I've been shown, and I've asked multiple times.

The current lore surrounding genetic powers is that they are known. However, genetic changes are temporary and the genome tends to just revert back to its vanilla state and each injection becomes less affective.

So they are known quantities (at least to geneticists themselves - I imagine that someone or someones already got credit for their discovery and papers are written about it.), and thus they are not "scary" to a rational geneticist because Working with these things are about half of what geneticists do. Dangerous, yes, they are to an extent, but not to one that a trained professional cannot reasonably avoid the danger.

[Skull132]

Self testing is illegal without a personal release form for a reason. The directives outlining that genetics genomes, as a product of research, should not be distributed without the authorization of command staff exist for a reason. The protohumans exist for a reason.

The reason is: genetics is supposed to be dangerous. But the mechanics fail to enforce this understanding completely and utterly. So as far as I'm concerned, there's enough lore to justify making self testing actually a risky business, and something you don't want to indulge in.

And as for being too cruel in my proposal. Maybe. But making the mechanics in question dangerous , but also healable is going to be rather difficult. Possibly doable by separating the effects the genetic damage causes from the amount of genetic damage you have. That is to say, even after you've healed the genetic damage, you may have to heal the more specific ailment you brought upon yourself.

[MagnificentMelkior]

Please show me where is says that self testing is illegal without a personal release form.

As for that directive, it is not specific to genetics, it is the same directive that tells scientists not to put protopistols into circulation or the like. That is not because it is dangerous to the wielder of the protopistol/genemods, but because its dangerous to everyone else if they decide to chimp out, and having this legal barrier lets security be reasonably sure that someone violating it is intending to do other crimes with their research materials: whether it be selling it to someone else or commiting grand theft, murder, or punching through the wall in [redacted] to get the rainbow suit.

Protohumans are absolutely essential in even the most self test loving geneticist, because they take up the brunt of the radiation damage in order to roll the genome dice until you get genes irradiated to DAC+. It is only after that is done that you test them on yourself. And using a person like a protohuman in this way will possibly get them killed, and definitely result in a bad time. The rads build up pretty fast. If you want to buff the radiation damage caused you could, but protohumans live a pretty horrible life in my lab already.

Thank you for acknowledging that you may be going to far in this proposal. I think that our current system really is not that bad, even if its somewhat flawed, and I think that any proposed change ought to be very convincingly good in order to change it.

[UnknownMurder]

I like to bump this as appeared to be an issue. There was this round where it was Construct Juggernaut and 2 Shades of Red Ghosts. Apparently, the Geneticist fought us using their telekinesis and hulk by himself. It sounds unbelievable but... Yeah, it should at least put a restraint own his health for each time he uses those 'powers'.

[Guest]

Self testing is illegal without a personal release form for a reason. The directives outlining that genetics genomes, as a product of research, should not be distributed without the authorization of command staff exist for a reason. The protohumans exist for a reason.

 

This isn't actually true, I don't know if it occurred while you were gone; but the Lore Team (Jackboot) changed the way that works, Geneticists sign a release form as part of their contract out of round, so they are allowed to self-test as long as they remain within the confines of Genetics, to leave genetics with modifications is when they must get the permission of the Heads of Staff. Directive 4 covers this as a derivative of Research and Development being allowed in the department, but taking it out is illegal without permission.

[Guest]

Also, if this is implemented, which I support: can we have cloning people cause a random amount of genome damage? And after a certain amount of genome damage to a body, it can't be cloned, and perhaps the DNA on record beings degrading too?

[Faranight]

From my experiences, genetics’ issues are primarily derived not from the leisure in which literal superpowers are obtained, but from the requirement to neglect RP in favor of this somehow, all-consuming goal of obtaining abilites. Genetics is the only occupation that appears in two different departments on the manifest (excluding command of course), and acts the link between medical and science. One would think this would require twice the RP of a normal position if anything. However, RP is catalyzed through the link to another position or department in each job. For instance, robotics requires constant RnD presence for all things circuits, and interweaves with the station cyborgs for repairs, IPCs for tagging, medical and Mining for mechatronic projects, and at even the “custodial engineer” with cleaning bots. When walking into the lab, where is the geneticist? In a joint project with the xenobiologist on the makeup of a golem? Never. Learning new surgical techniques? Extremely rarely. How about clicking buttons on the console like he or she was for the last hour of the shift? Most always. Because currently, powers are the main deal of genetics on a metal level regardless of whether it is supposed to be this way. We don’t need to RP clicking buttons for three hours. That’s what all of us are doing irl. Instead of requiring interaction with other departments, genetics then relies on the lack of interaction. So, nerfing genetics by removing block injectors for instance, would worsen this problem and lead to more required time not interacting. The best solution would be a new requirement involving interaction beyond that of occasional cloning, prosthesis, and ordering chems in order to develop powers. I propose a system similar to that of the destructive analyzer, except with organic matter.

What if organic samples of various races, plants, and artifacts would play a role in the furthering genetic research. This would act as catalyze RP between so many departments and genetics. Especially with the up and coming xenobotany. Now I’m not suggesting anything quite as invasive as it sounds. As skull mentioned it is far easier to add new code then replace the existing. Say the analyzer accepts some biological items like blood samples of all races, organs, plants, and slime cores as random fragments of the genetic code. Each containing a small set of structural enzymes with activated genes depending on the worth. Perhaps a Tajaran blood sample for instance comes with 18 blocks, six of which are active. One of those being warmth, the other five disabilities or nothing. A tagaran heart obtained through the cloning of your local janitor might narrow the activated genes to four, allowing for better isolation. Perhaps a sample from a Vaurca would have a higher chance of blindness disability, or carpotoxin offering resistance to vacuum. This would be easy to balance too as the RNG could just be skewed accordingly. There are of course realism problems introduced by the sample genome differing from that of an analyzed organism, but the intricacies can be refined while retaining the idea of overhauling genetics though the addition of RP requirements and objects of genetic interest.

That suggestion, of course, only buffs the department alone, adding more ways to get power faster. It would be ideal In tandem with Skull’s idea making multiple powers impossible without a balancing negative effect in the form of damage. Although this force doesn’t have to be through more permanent damage, it is necessary. The current geneticist from the perspective of the rest of science:

Scientist: “Geneticist?”

Scientist: “Hello?

Scientist: “Guess SSD has struck again.”

Thirty minutes later a geneticist wonders around the station with maxed out powers single-handedly taking down a cult. Can’t RP their character anymore either due to the hulk gene turning them into the bane of public comms rather than an intelligent researcher. Although the hulk gene’s specifics could be argued, I have still yet to observe a situation in which it improved RP. Very rarely does it not hinder the quality. Not to mention the destroyed immersion resulting from an allusion to corny fiction. I do agree with Magnificent Melkior somewhat in that our current system really is not that bad. I mean, the same situation of relying on the specific scientist to catalyze their own RP is seen in virology, xenoarch, and xenobio, there is a big difference from those and genetics. As I said in the beginning, it is the link between science and medical. The role of biologist is hardly being used at all. When I dissected a vaurca with an RND scientist in robotics the biologist was busy with genes. That may have been the first time they were dissected on the station for all I know. The point being, there are times in which science has such a clear place for genetic intrigue and need for medical insight that is overlooked in favor of clicking buttons. This should change.

[K0NFL1QT]

Since we've switched to newcode that is completely without Genetics in any form, I've been thinking about a fresh take on the role. The part that everyone hates about Genetics is the chucklefuck who ruins it by rushing for Hulk/TK/X-Ray, the top tier powers, and then goes rogue. Good Geneticists that don't do that get to sit in one spot and press buttons on a console all shift, and then not play with any of the cool stuff they discover. And really, those powers aren't the fun things about a Geneticist from an RP standpoint; it's the potential to take a creature and make it better, but in plausible ways that aren't 'now your eyes shoot lasers'. We do need Genetics in a form, it's mechanically useful for fun things, and for getting players back into a round, and it's thematically rich in the way that it allows deaths to be both canon and impermanent; we don't need 'powers'.

We need a Genetics system that still permits creation of protohumans, because protohumans are just so useful. You can use them for surgery shenanigans, greater scope revivals in the cases of body destruction, you can use them for Sciencey weapon testing, you can use them to practise combat moves, setup fake murder scenes, living blood bags and gene sources. Lots of stuff you can do with protocreatures. I also think Skull was headed in a good direction when he implemented the organ printer and tried to minimise general genetic fuckery. The problem was that organ replacements were hardly ever needed. You could already fix damaged organs with surgery, or chemistry. So, how do we combine these ideas and Make Genetics Great Again? The Biological Engineer. The Organ Splicer.

You know how the DNA Scanner deducts biomass from a cloning pod and spits out a clone of whoever you scanned? Well, what if you could choose to clone a blank? It consumes biomass, takes the same amount of time, but pops out a bald protohuman with no defects. No monkey SE tweaking necessary, only biomass. Select the race, print out the most bald, generic version of skrell, tajaran, unathi, etc. All mindless and ripe for organ/blood harvesting... or whatever fun things you want a protocreature for.

But that's only half of it. Take the old bio-printer, this also now consumes bio-mass instead of metal, but prints enhanced organs. This whole Geneticist idea really is more of an organs expansion, in lieu of stripping out powers. You can have a variety of printable organs of varying biomass costs depending on their effect, and these would cause noticeable changes without being zero-to-hulk. Every organ requires its specific surgery to implant, which means no more self-testing Geneticists on a rampage. It's all about subtly enhancing others.

For example, engineered limbs or implanted organs could;

give immunity to alchohol related poisoning, for that one bored assistant who keeps coming in with massive liver damage

Increase the damage threshold of bones.

Increase the natural rate of regeneration, as well as metabolism.

Increase capability for seeing in the dark.

Permit breathing different atmospheres, or widen the threshold of pressures that can be breathed in.

Allow radiation resistance.

Increase movespeed slightly.

Add the 'jump' ability, at a reasonable distance.

There's a lot of possibilities that are slight improvements, but each one is minor and doesn't turn you into an unstoppable hulk. Each one requires surgery to install. You might also need a new way of generating biomass to counter the costs for all of this, but there's usually a lot of wasted biomass in the morgue if you know what I mean. Make a big human blender, mulch that dead guy right up, stick the meat in your protomaker or bioprinter. Monkeys would also fit in the blender.

As far as I can tell, most of these ideas should be easily achievable. The only 'new' thing is the manblender actually just a gibber, the rest is copies of things that already exist but with slight changes, like a list of enhanced organs or a cloning pod that only spits out preloaded protohuman blueprints. Thoughts?

[Jboy2000000]

I thought I posted here earlier, guess not, so I thought Id drop this here like I wanted to do before. Just, an alternative to what we had, now that genetics is kill.