Knowledge of Nar'sie

[Skull132]

Okay, so this rose from the pits of MSay today.

Basically, should simply following Nar'sie as a deity be slotted under having antag knowledge, and thus metagaming, or not? Because, here's my point of view:

Nar'sie, while praised as a non-antag, would just be a darker lord to follow. Much like satanism, Cthulhu, etcetera. It doesn't inherently make you an antag, and it should not be assumed that every followed on Nar'sie is looking to summon him, bathe in people's blood, and so on. Infact, non-antag followers shouldn't do that. Pretty much, it should be treated as a darker lord, for whatever purposes. A non-antag follower wouldn't even know that the cult of Nar'sie exists, nor would he know of the artifacts. And further still, it might make interesting roleplay to have a non-antag Nar'sie follower shy away from joining the cult, after the realizes that the evils he praised are actually very real.

Now, for a cultist, they know the whole nine yard. And thus, pursue to summon their lord.

Summary: I don't think that following Nar'sie as a non-antagonist should be explicitly slotted under metagaming/having antag knowledge. If it's done in a manner which does not provide one with the incentive to conduct bloody murder, violently convert people, identify/purse relics of the cult, or things like that, but is instead done in a manner that provides a good story, then I don't see harm in it.

[Valkrae]

I'm totally in favor of this. I think it'd add some really good RP to the station if people had a really dark religion to hide behind their backs, and in their records.

[Chaznoodles]

I'm all in favour of this not being classed as antag knowledge/metagaming. It's merely a way to further RP in cases, which is the primary reason this topic was brought. up. If worshipping something like this leads to more RP that is enjoyable - which it probably would - then I am all for it, and always will be.

[Frances]

Here's the main counter-argument to that.

Nar'sie, in its essence, is a religion about bringing about the end of the world. It is a cult of blood sacrifices and magic. Wouldn't any worshipper of Nar'sie be deemed insane, and thus go against our rules on sane characters?

[Skull132]

Perhaps we can make it out to be something else?

Right now, the only concept of Nar'sie that exists is the one brandished by the Cult of Nar'sie. Objectively, as they actually have the capability to summon the lord, they are correct. But religion is rarely about being correct. So the interpretation that non-cultists give to Nar'sie could be something different.

Despite Satan being portrayed as an antagonistic character by the Catholic church and the Bible, he is viewed as a liberator. The perception of Nar'sie could be made equally two fold: one side the Cult of Nar'sie believes in, the other is what the followers believe in.

[Susan]

I don't agree.

Yes, you can compare Nar-Sie to Satanism but you forget that Satanists still use some of the same texts as Christians and Catholics do; and as such even though their perception is different the religion itself is still the root. Worshipping Nar-Sie might not make you want to bathe in blood but as a deity Nar-sie ostensibly has a religion - many, sure, but all that matters is at one point there was only one following before it branched. Branches of modern day Christianity still use a lot of rites and texts that their root religion does; this would be the same for Nar-Sie.

It means this person would undoubtedly have knowledge of blood runes and sacrifices, which in turn provides them with illegitimate information about cult, and is against the rules. Blood runes and sacrifices are to Nar-Sie what Communion is to Christianity. Almost all offshoots of Christianity still adhere to Mass. The rites may be different, but their root is the same.

Further, I'm of the opinion that allowing this will enable people to do dumb things. First we let non-cultists worship Nar-Sie, then we allow people to be permanatags without being antagonists; I don't think these are things that are okay or should be supported. This behavior should be punished on principle; it's a slippery slope. If you're going to make a rule, enforce it, don't go around it entirely by making crude exceptions to allow the worship of a blood god or the singularity or something equally dumb.

Cult is a round like wizard. It is filled with magic and nonsensical shit that should not be validated in the IC universe; this is what you are attempting to do. Give substance and credibility to a round type that requires a heavy suspension of disbelief and insert it into normal lore, which I am wholeheartedly against.

[LetzShake]

Here's the main counter-argument to that.

Nar'sie, in its essence, is a religion about bringing about the end of the world. It is a cult of blood sacrifices and magic. Wouldn't any worshipper of Nar'sie be deemed insane, and thus go against our rules on sane characters?

 

So is Christianity, really. Ever take a peek a revelations? Grim shit, and they're happy for it to happen.

Being a follower of Nar'sie who is not a cultist can simply mean you think humanity is evil, and take blood rites and similar things to be metaphor. You don't believe you can truly bring ghosts into the material plane, you just think it's a metaphor for how evil done in the real world is not easily forgotten just because someone passes on, and a belief in the afterlife.

And Sue, not everyone is looking for SS13 to be super real srsbsns world all the time. Most of the things in this game are silly or ridiculous. We're in space with fax machines.

People already do dumb things all the time. This isn't going to change much.

[Frances]

So is Christianity, really. Ever take a peek a revelations? Grim shit, and they're happy for it to happen.

Invalid comparison; human sacrifice is not one of the major tenets of modern Christianity.

Having the cult of Nar'sie Lite is an idea I'm pretty divided upon - on one hand, it does open the door for some non-violent cult RP, and I have no issue with it being a thing if the cult is about more than "let's sacrifice everything we can find". I personally don't think the (non-magic) cult is especially silly or immersion-breaking - the cult magic stuff they do is, but we wouldn't be encountering any of that during regular rounds.

On the other hand, there's the ever-present risk of people taking it overboard. Some people might overdo it, especially with the general issues around the nature of cult, and I don't know if that's something we want to risk policing.

[Guest]

I would prefer the objective of cult to be "Everyone joins the cult or they will suffer our swords that will pierce the heavens", kind of cult over the "CAMP ON THE SCI OUTPOST TO FIND ALL THE WORDS AND SUMMON NAR'SIE AT HOLODECK WITH 0 ESCALATION FOR LULZ" mentality.

Stealth cult is bad because its objective is to be sneaky whilst it slowly gets all of the words just to summon the dark goddess herself and gather cultists necessary for it.

Murder cult is bad because it takes people out of the round 4noraisins besides "FOR NAR'SIE."

How cult can be played for the enjoyment of everyone else is to make the crew OOCly aware there is a cult onboard, and ICly tell the crew something fishy is going on, simultaneously.

As tenenza often says, "Atmospher...ics."

[Rusty Shackleford]

Hold up.

I thought Satanism wasn't technically a religion?

I thought they just used Satan as a symbol for personal freedom?

[enkas]

I'd say it is possible to have people be -secretly- part of the Nar'Sie cult, when not in the cult round, that probably means they shouldn't run around in robes and telling everyone about it, because as Tablespoon told me, this group is ridiculously secretive.

By the way, speaking of their secretiveness, I once found mention of the cult of Nar'Sie on Tau Ceti daily. Just sayan.

[Guest]

Hold up.

I thought Satanism wasn't technically a religion?

I thought they just used Satan as a symbol for personal freedom?

 

Satanism is the worship of the self. Satan is used as a symbol for absolute freedom and power.

[Tenenza]

Hold up.

I thought Satanism wasn't technically a religion?

I thought they just used Satan as a symbol for personal freedom?

 

Satanism is the worship of the self. Satan is used as a symbol for absolute freedom and power.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

Satanism has lots of different sects and beliefs.

Some of them do worship Satan.

Some don't.

Such is life.

Ahem, but more on the topic of Nar'sie's cult, I'm not a fan of having people have on their record "Yes, I worship a god that tells me to kill people." and I rather dislike cultists who go "I want to kill people for by god".

But, I like the idea of having a religion of Nar'Sie that isn't, well, um, evil.

Of course, the whole blood magic thing remains non-canon.

Hmm, maybe, they wouldn't even worship Nar'Sie, just view her as a symbol of personal freedom...

[Jakers457]

I would like to suggest that using the word 'Cult' to not be considered metagaming also. I've seen it rarely on here but on some servers if you state something like 'they appear to be acting like a cult of some sort,' you tend get the response of 'what's a cult?' via IC or 'Metagamer!' via OOC.

[Tenenza]

I would like to suggest that using the word 'Cult' to not be considered metagaming also. I've seen it rarely on here but on some servers if you state something like 'they appear to be acting like a cult of some sort,' you tend get the response of 'what's a cult?' via IC or 'Metagamer!' via OOC.

 

That's like calling a Golem, a Golem, instead of like, a Metamorphic Bluespace Entity.

It's boring, and not very creative.

There are plenty of other good words to choose from.

Plus, the word Cult is very offensive, implying mindless devotion.

[Guest]

I would like to suggest that using the word 'Cult' to not be considered metagaming also. I've seen it rarely on here but on some servers if you state something like 'they appear to be acting like a cult of some sort,' you tend get the response of 'what's a cult?' via IC or 'Metagamer!' via OOC.

 

That's like calling a Golem, a Golem, instead of like, a Metamorphic Bluespace Entity.

It's boring, and not very creative.

There are plenty of other good words to choose from.

Plus, the word Cult is very offensive, implying mindless devotion.

 

But isn't that the case, and the point of the cult gamemode? These people are fanatics who are bonkers crazy trying to summon a dark god. Their behavior is meant to be cultish.

[Davidchan]

My 2 cents on the religion are as follows.

Nar'Sie may or may not be known outside of cult. He's one of many (presumed) extra-planar entities, though he's the only one actively trying to push into this world. To most common people, his a name would be about as relevant as someone speaking of Beelzebub or Mephistopheles to normal people. You don't have to be into the occult to know who these figures are, but to anyone but a cultist, tales and stories of them would be simple myths taken about as seriously as any other religion or cult. Until proven otherwise, players would not really know the cult is active and in fact possesses a number of power and artifacts.

The robes and hood themselves are creepy, probably not something approved by NT to wear on duty, given the various costumes it can be argued these are just for cosplay purposes and nothing really about them of not. The plating of the robes can raise suspicion by security personnel, but as long as the sword isn't out in the open, this could be played off as use for LARPing or even a religious ceremony.

The sword, obviously, is illegal as it is not a play thing and glows with unnatural energy, just seeing one of these on a person's robes should raise suspicion from security and someone who draws their sword or holds it should probably have security pulling out their own stun batons and tasers to force the person drop it and arrest them for misconduct and wielding a dangerous weapon.

The Talisman is something of a hit or miss. It's a religious item, doesn't interfere with work, and generally just appears to be an object of religious and sentimental value to the character. UNTIL it is seen functioning in a supernatural way. Summoning artifacts, stunning people or other uses should raise instant suspicion and sent up the chain of command till someone starts questioning the individual on what they did, how and why. Without intel reports from CentCom though, command should not immediately know the person is a cultist or credible threat until proven otherwise.

The tome might be a bit creepy, but there is pathfinder books and dice around the ship, it's not hard for any intelligent cultist to play it off as if they are preparing for an upcoming RPG game around the DM screen. Closer inspection might notice some of the writing is in blood, this is rather fanatical, but there is no way to prove if it is fresh, taken maliciously, or even human blood. Again, just a rather nerdy/creepy object. Alternately, this can be peacefully pushed off as an religious parallel to a bible, so long as nobody has seen them use it to draw runes and activate their magic. Someone witnessed drawing runes (slicing open their finger and writing the words out) should be taken to medical for a psych examination, UNLESS the rune was activated at which point command should be alerted and security involved if there is a credible threat.

The soul shards to the average crew also should be nothing of note. Science /might/ be able to analyze it with their equipment and notice a resonant energy not consistent with natural phenomenon, they can even deconstruct it for research levels. (DON'T immediately go for the deconstructor, analyze it with various equipment or make a show of scanning it with your PDA if you don't have spectrometers or analyzers.) A glowing soul shard (one with a soul in it) on the other hand is much harder to play off. It can be argued that it is gimmick item or a toy, though anyone actually holding an active soul shard should be an instant give away; the stone is vibrating, warm to the touch and they might even here a voice in their head. It's not natural.

Empty Shells are a grey area. They shouldn't be out in the open, seeing one being made or interacted with by the cult (inserting a soul shard.) On their own, civilian crew shouldn't think much of them, looking like mannequins or statues. Medical or Security might be able to figure out something about them is off, like they are incomplete, Science and Engineering would probably be able to figure out it's some sort of automaton, if in an incomplete state. Regardless, it is not a piece of NT created equipment, and should be treated with suspicion by anyone in a command role.

Shades should be obvious, being a silhouette of a former crew mate, recognizable but clearly disfigured and probably in pain. As a shade, remember your will is not entirely your own, and you have to obey your new master's orders. You can still talk to former friends and colleagues, but like an AI you aren't allowed to directly harm or hinder your masters unless your orders are vague enough to allow you to harm them. You can not attack your master or other members of the cult as a shade, you are a slave after all. But if a cultist orders you to kill everyone in a certain room, and other members of the cult might still be in the room, you just might be able to justify attacking them until your orders are rectified or you kill EVERYONE in the room.

Constructs should be instantly regarded with suspicion, functioning like borgs but lacking all of the usual equipment and markings of sanctioned NT Cyborgs, let alone the AI unable to make radio contact with them. Unless they are openly hostile, it's not good RP form to immediately attacking a construct. All the more so if it is willing to talk, you probably won't learn much (aside from you are not it's master.) It's understandable for Security and ERT to AIM their weapons at constructs, especially Juggernauts, though actually firing upon them if they not acting as a threat is also in bad form. If they are hostile, fire on them freely, it should be fairly obvious by examining they are not normal machines and have a supernatural sense about them, Science or Engineers inspecting them closely won't be able to find any power source aside from the Soul Shard, parts might not fully connect, several of them float of the ground without any devices to propel them, and their joints are far more limber than their design might suggest.

Observing constructs in operation should make it fairly obvious to their uses,

Juggernauts are sentries and guardians, protecting their masters and usually the ones up front. Players at first probably won't notice their oxygen tank or fire extinguisher isn't hurting it, but denting it with a more robust object might help clue them in this think is made of sterner stuff.

Artificers engrave floors, salvage materials and create objects for use of their masters, keen players might notice it repairing constructs and itself (there is not tool tip or pop up for this, but directly inspecting a injured construct slowly be restored to full condition should make it painfully obvious.

Wraiths, if ever observed, should be noted as being faster, watching one disappear or disappear and appear somewhere else should make it obvious what is going on.

Post Edit: Obviously, I meant to add the Chaplin/Counselor/Priest would have somewhat more knowledge of the significance of these items than most people. The Chaplain should not automatically lose their shit and go around slamming heads with their bible and spraying holy water every where. The Chaplain should be somewhat knowledge that the Tomes are of importance, though unclear on their nature without closer inspection. A Cultist's robes would also raise a priest's eyebrows, but as there is no laws preventing other religions, he should only react to the presence of robed figures with suspicion or curiosity, not outright declare there to be an evil, demon worshipping cult. Soul Shards SHOULD cause great amount of distress for the Chaplain, while probably not familiar with how they work, there should be an 'evil' aura about them, especially if charged with a soul. Talismans should be recognizable to the Chaplain as a sign of the Cult of Nar'sie is present on the ship, seeing it being used should alert the Chaplain the cult is active and dangerous. Once Chaplain has evidence, he can try to convince the crew (Specifically Captain/HoS/Security) of the danger, though without proof of wrong doing or villainous plots (Chaplain probably doesn't know they want to summon the Dark Lord, let along proving the Dark Lord exists) he's going to have a hard time getting anywhere until sacrifices are found, runes in the middle of bloody rooms or the inevitable psychopath running around with a cult blade.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Guest

[Gollee]

Exactly what David said, that should be our new stance on knowledge of cult items and Nar'sie.

[EvilBrage]

Throughout the cult rounds I've seen, short of cultists outright slaying individuals with their swords (which is ironically how most cults are outed), everyone generally shies away from accusations out of fear of being accused of metagaming. I'm not sure that's a good thing, and I'm not sure how to solve it, but I am of the opinion that cults have it a bit easier than other antags (who can be identified by the readily apparent danger they represent, whether by alien needles, terrorist uplinks/paraphernalia, viciously glowing eyes, blood red hardsuits, or being a friggin WIZARD). I'd like to see the chaplain and the librarian afforded a bit more knowledge about Nar'sie's cult.

I like Baystation 12's guidelines (which are linked to in our own ruleset, mind you.)

 

The Chaplain/Counselor has limited knowledge, up to knowing that the cult is evil, should probably be stopped, and that holy water will deconvert those influenced by the cult.

 

For the chaplain to go on a vigilante spree in response to being unable to convince others of the danger of the cult would not only be a great plot for a movie, but I think it would work for the server as well. Depending on how many people he could convince, I could see a nice three-sided conflict between the Cult, the Witch Hunt, and the Skeptics.

[Tainavaa]

Instead of address anything else in this thread, I'm going to say that's what I meant when I asked if it'd be okay to have knowledge of Nar'sie and not necessarily by name. More of an idol to worship or serve. I'd like to have something like that added to Tina's security records but after reading the thread I'm still not sure if its okay.

[Guest]

I can see this working if clear guidelines are in place of what is allowed to be known and what isn't. Personally, if it was allowed I'd like to see it more as a community of people who share common interest/beliefs/focus on a specific way of life. By that I don't mean super creepy dark person that talks like they're from the 1600's. At that point I wouldn't even see such a person being hired.

In fact if it were to be allowed, I believe there should be extensive work on the Cult of Nar'Sie itself. Like a class system, if that makes sense? The lowest ranking would be the general populace of the "group" who have a different way of living, or simply their own belief. They would most likely be taught by a teacher/preacher/ who would show them an alternative way of life. Said way of life would NOT include any sort of sacrificial beliefs or have malicious intent with the use of blood magic. I'd go as far to say that the actual "cult" section of the group is hidden from this general populace and that they are more or less being brainwashed slowly over time, culled into becoming a cultist. They'd probably know high ranking "cult" members but would see them as enlightened idols, who obviously would be putting an act on to hide their true intentions.

That's just fluff detail to give an incite on what I'm trying to describe. Any characters who try to borderline things/take things to far deserve to have their player receive a nice telling off. I'd also like to bring up how this could also be integrated into the forums. Detail on belief, community practice, application system, etc. (For the general populace that is) Whilst that could seem slightly extreme, it does mean that it can be controlled and it does mean that it opens the potential for more game to forum integration both ICly and OOCly. I'd say the potential can go as far as having the community create controlled groups which can eventually expand into something in game. Though with that said, it's all an idea. An idea that can show bright colours and promise or crash horribly. Though an idea I'd be willing to give a test come Christmas holidays where I don't have either work or studies.

Thoughts and opinions?

[Guest]

So, tl;dr, the belief of Nar'sie itself and the whole sacrificial aspect of it would be restricted to the highest echelons of the cult.

I could probably roll with it.

[Valkrae]

I see no reason as to why this shouldn't be implemented. There are a host of reasons that support the fact that it will only add roleplay.

I'm all for it, gung ho, if you will.