Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[LordPwner]

Byond Key: LordPwner

Staff Byond Key: Garnascus

Reason for Complaint:

Garn got on to me for calling ERT, and Red Alert saying I did it for non-legit reasons basically, yet I had good reasoning..

Evidence:

Garnascus 2016-05-16 00:02:19 You do not call red alert and an ERT based on "having to leave" and metagaming that heist rounds usually end in death. You have options as the captain and its your job to find them. If you cant then dont play the captain, Next time something this egregious happens i will strip your whitelist.

Additional Notes/Supporting Information for Complaint:

*Please Note, I did try to open Communications and talk with them but they IGNORED Me, cutting off the negation option, I did NOT just call ERT and Make Red Alert*

My Reasons were as Followed by order of Importance:

IC Reasons:

"Reported Ion, and Lethal Weapons" "Only Two Active Officers, and a Cadet, All three kill able with Ion Shots" "Security Team recommended it as well as the Commander, since they threaten Security/Command Lives" "Four Hardsuited Intruders on a station, out in the middle of no where meant we would have to deal it and Everyone IC and OOC Could tell we couldn't"

OOC reasons: "I had to get off" "And I know how this is gonna down... They are gonna kill the Security department, Loot, and then get the people off the station"

Characters that Suggested ERT: Commander Clement Beach, Officer Dylan Wright, Cadet Crow, and Another Office... I forget them

I would like the warning removed, Due to the fact I had Very good IC reasons for the ERT, And Yes the OOC reasons helped the choice, but I did NOT make it till I had the Following IC Reasons

~Thank you much for Reading

[Garnascus]

Your OOC reasons where literally the first reasons you gave me. You called red alert and ERT knowing you wouldnt be around for any of it. They had not yet killed anyone and by the time you logged off there where three officers, one detective, one cadet, and i think maybe a forensic tech. You dont call red alert and ERT as a precaution. You call ERT when shits FUBAR.

[LordPwner]

I gave you the other reasons as well which you blew off and only focused on the OOC, and Garn, they were already breaking into the Station and taking crew members hostage, Shit was starting to hit the fan

Edit: Also at the time of Swiping another Officer and Detectives came aboard, so by the time these new Security Department Staff Members got aboard, ERT was already called

[Garnascus]

no, shit was not hitting the fan. i was watching. they had JUST broken into cargo. You probably had reason to call red alert but you didnt have reason to call ERT. Nobody had died and damage to the station was honestly pretty minimal. I blew off your IC reasoning because i frankly am not interested in it. You can justify it all you want from an IC standpoint. The fact of the matter is an ERT escalate the situation to a deathmatch 9/10 times. you surrender authority of the station over to a "trained" team of specialists.

The bottom line here is you DO NOT call an ERT the second a team of raiders show up with guns. it is literally your job as captain to handle the situation before an ERT is needed. you had to go OOC so appoint someone else acting captain and leave it at that.

[Icuris]

Player of Clement Beach here, my memory of this round is foggy so please excuse me if I confuse the events with another round.

Rather early on one of my team members reported a group of four heavily armed strangers in hardsuits near detective maintenance. We attempted to open communication with them, no reply. They shot on site and utilized weapons lethal to all of my team.

Engagement wise at this point, the raiders had breached security, breached the armoury, utilized EMP grenades at one point, breached the station in multiple areas. As far as expected training goes, the cadet, two officers(?) and I with standard gear would not be able to successfully maintain the safety of the station and the people.

We did successfully open dialogue regarding an exchange for the hostage, this fell apart quickly due to one of the raiders shooting me with a crossbow, pinning me to a wall.

At this point, with how things were playing out it was viewed as such ICly; outmanned, out gunned and they had hostages and appeared violent without cause. Whatever conversation that took place to call ERT, I did approve of at this point.

Once the SINGLE ERT member arrived to help we had received some new staff members in sec, engineering had finally been able to safely restore the brig to a safe standard.

I'm rambling but I will attempt to hit the main points. When we called ERT security had no way to recover and handle the situation. ICly no one was willing to repair the brig due to one of the raiders being at large. Resupplying was impossible as the main body of raiders had cargo under their control. There was us, armed with stun weapons against people with lethal weaponry. When it came down to the captains choice, I believe it followed SoP regardless of their OOC intentions. I stated that we would not be able to regain control without supplies and the raiders actions had made negotiation unwise.

Note: Our intention for the ERT call was for them to bring supplies. They did just that and the single trooper assisted us by leading the way once the hostage situation was dissolved.

As far as I could tell being heavily involved, I saw no metagaming.

[Guest]

You don't call an ERT because the raiders might be a threat.

You don't call an ERT because the raiders could be a threat.

You don't call an ERT as soon as any sort of antagonist with slightly greater, less than or equal to your own security force's power shows up.

You call an ERT when the situation becomes so blown out of control due to staff casualties.

You had cargo prior to the ERT call. The raiders did not bust into cargo until after an ERT was called. They were not bound for such until said ERT was called.

I was one of the raiders this round that had reported it. The only thing we did was show up in the brig, taunt sec a bit over comms, then leave because they had the e-guns out already due to an IPC officer camerasitting and spotting the raiders.

This is less about metagaming and more about the ethicality of a command staff member hailing for an ERT within 40 minutes of the roundstart. An hour didn't even take place before the ERT was called. Both code red and ERT were called back-to-back within 20 seconds.

Letting you off with anything less than a warning would go to say that this sort of action as a head of staff is "technically allowed, but neither strictly encouraged nor discouraged", which is not a good scenario to have, because it will likely lead to further and more frequent incidents like this happening.

Calling ERT for supplies is not what they are for. Cargo supplies security. The ERT is a SWAT team, not the UPS delivery guy for guns.

[LordPwner]

Garn Either me nor the Commander could have handled the situation, They were ALREADY trying to Kill, and honestly, I would have rather had that one ERT guy aboard to assist then have the WHOLE, need I say again Whole, Security Department dead because by that point the Commander would be dead, and I most likely would too, If I were still in the round . And since you called the ERT The Swat, that means the Security Force would be the Police and who did they get when they can't handle the issue? The SWAT, because they are better trained to deal with this issue. To say you ONLY call ERT for Deaths is slightly Dumb, because thats not the only issue, they are a Emergency Response Team For a REASON, To Respond to EMERGENCIES. Which this was, as they were close to KILLING Commander Beach, Could wipe out the whole security department with One shot from a Ion Rifle. They were breaking into Cargo as we were swiping, Not after, because right after we swiped I walked over and they were already doing stuff, cutting off Supply Lines after Breaching All of the Security Department, Most Likely hopeful to kill Officers like this. So yeah... I believe the ERT was logically, Even if it was Only One Trooper. So Garn, we tried the negation route, more than once, they ignored it. Would have engaged them head on, but we would have lost (Since ya know, THEY SHOOT AT US FOR TRYING TO BE CIVIL). So tell me what the fuck else I could have Done. seriously tell me. Because in the dire of that threat, Since they had already Gone for kills but Beach made it out as did the Officers, Tell me what I could have done.

Edit: To be honest, that was probably the BEST choice I had at the time, To protect Officers, the Commander, The Crew, and myself. It would have been honestly STUPID, *which a Head of Staff shouldn't be as they have worked for NT for many years, are/can High in years and yes, they have a lot of experience, So they will know when they can't deal with something, as stated Above a ERT is for Emergencies not just because people die and not having the means to deal with the situation, thats a Emergenacy, even more since as stated more than once they were trying to kill The Officers and the Commander (With Shooting and the Breaches), It was the best I could do

[Alberyk]

Take in mind that the only two crew casualities happened due to an emp that happened after the trooper assaulted cargo and massacred the raiders with the assault rifle. Before that, the onlyt thing that the heister crew did was raiding the kitchen and being spotted by someone which said that they had lethal weapons, only two crossbow and an ion rifle that were visible at the time. In any moment the heister team really tried to murder or hurt any crew member, also, the hostage was take and released after the ert was on the way.

[Guest]

You called an ERT so early in the round and only got one trooper to show for it. You realize that calling an ERT is pointless without any observers, right?

[Garnascus]

Garn Either me nor the Commander could have handled the situation, They were ALREADY trying to Kill, and honestly, I would have rather had that one ERT guy aboard to assist

 

No, false, incorrect. You called an ERT the second the raiders breached into the station. It is literally your job as captain to handle this shit. you dont call a single ERT guy to "assist" that is not what ERT are for. I will say it once again, ERT is for when the station is FUBAR and people are dieing left and right. Neither of those conditions where met when you called ERT. The warning is staying, you can try to justify this all you want from an IC standpoint.

Its similar to heads of staff that justify an emergency shuttle when an antag blows up a few welder tanks and nobody is on station to set power. You do not prematurely end the round just because you dont like the direction its going. The warning is not being removed at this time.

[Icuris]

Kinda devolving into a "he said/she said" type deal.

As, I believe Garn may be mistaken on the time we called ERT I suggest bringing up the relevant logs and whichever person in charge of this complaint to step in so we can be 100% sure of details and process instead of going back and forth.

[LordPwner]

Kinda devolving into a "he said/she said" type deal.

As, I believe Garn may be mistaken on the time we called ERT I suggest bringing up the relevant logs and whichever person in charge of this complaint to step in so we can be 100% sure of details and process instead of going back and forth.

 

I do agree, it would give us the actually order of events, so both sides fully understand the order of Events, so we do not have a "He said, She Said" Deal like it has been turning into

[Garnascus]

The sequence of events is not as relevant as you think it is. I was watching the entire round. I watched the raiders threaten people over comms and then break into cargo. you then called ERT/red alert. its really that simple, you do not call ERT the second antags break in and outnumber you. Its really that simple and the warning is not being lifted.

[Skull132]

Going log fetching tomorrow. Other admin matters stopped me from doing so today.

Though, I will say. Because of the capacity for ERT to wreck shit, calling one should be reserved for situations where security has actually failed. We discussed this with folks over OOC. Security is expected to have the capability for tactical response, as well as the training for it. Basically, they're meant to be capable of handling this stuff up to a certain degree. This is probably one of those cases where you'll see enforcement of principle superceed situational considerations, due to the effect ERT will have on a round. In my opinion, it should be considered endgame material, as it is geared up for that specifically.

[Dreamix]

Don't mind me, just passing by, pointing you at the direction of faxes and emergency messages that may avoid you and people getting into trouble later.

Unless I'm blind, why no one said that yet.

[DatBerry]

This will be archived due to inactivity in 24 hours, if the OP does not reply in time but wishs to re-open this complaint, PM me or another staff member.