AgentWhatever Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 I've had too many situation where a fire-extinguisher would really could've come in handy, especially when floating in space by accident. Every borg has a flash. Why not a fire-extinguisher too?
Nanako Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 Because a fire extinguisher is a very effective ghetto jetpack. There already is a cyborg jetpack for EVA borgs, and its quite expensive. it would be functionless if everyone had extinguishers
Guest Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 Fire extinguishers are coded differently now, they consume more water. The average fire extinguisher only has three blasts before its run out.
Nanako Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 Fire extinguishers are coded differently now, they consume more water. The average fire extinguisher only has three blasts before its run out. One is all you need to completely remove the risk of the common malfborg cheese tactic - loading the whole armoury into a locker and dragging it out to space I don't want to see that made any easier Certain borgs have fire extinguishers that have a reasonable likelihood of firefighting falling within their expected duties. Standard, engineering, construction, crisis, and oddly surgeon. That last one shouldn't have it though I'm very against giving it to all of them because it's a powerful EVA tool and sidelines the jetpack
Guest Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 You know that three blasts is different from say, fifteen, right?
Nanako Posted August 9, 2016 Posted August 9, 2016 Another point to consider, why should every borg have an extinguisher, logically? It's a big heavy tank of water which adds to the considerable weight they're already carrying. More weight means more power required to move the borg, which means more power required to recharge their cells. Energy is money, literally. The value of credits is defined in energy realistically, only engineering and crisis borgs have any business going firefighting. The former as part of atmospherics work, the latter to save people from burning areas. For every other borg, firefighting is not in their job description, its not an everyday ocurrence, and carrying around a piece of equipment to be prepared for that eventuality is an extra cost that NT is unlikely to consider worthwhile I am actually removing the fire extinguisher from the surgeon borg now, it has no reason to have one
Guest Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 What actual harm is there to giving fire extinguishers to cyborgs? If and when they actually wander into space and fly off, they would have no way back if caught into a vacuum without it. A quick application of a fire extinguisher would help them more than hurt them. "But they shouldn't be going into space!" The greatest advantage of being a cyborg is being unaffected by vacuums. Slipping and spacenav errors do also happen. They're going to likely stick around their station anyway, and 3 possible fluid bursts is not going to really allow them to make their own fort somewhere. In addition, an electrical fire can happen literally anywhere. You're effectively trying to change something without having a present necessity and reason for it, apparently? I really don't see cyborgs "abusing" their fire extinguishers. They're actually way less effective than they used to be. I'd like to cite how Sound Scopes used to handle this, "Do not suggest the removal of things without having a clear argument for removing a feature," because god knows how annoying it is when people ask "remove dis" for features they don't personally like.
AgentWhatever Posted August 10, 2016 Author Posted August 10, 2016 Maybe another possible solution would be to add a single-use replenishable method of propulsion for borgs who have none when stuck in space. Either that or the nerfed fire-extinguishers. The reason why I brought this up is because I have repeatedly got stuck in space because of various shenanigans. Yesterday was the point I was done with it though. I was trying to board a raider shuttle as the new combat module, but before I could enter the vessel teleported away. It took 45 minutes of repeatedly asking to be retrieved before somebody actually responded to my plea's and retrieve me. 45 minutes. That's not funny. The point you made about fires not being common is also not really realistic, seeing as the station is built around testing a highly flammable element.
LordFowl Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 There is no reason for cyborgs not to have fire extinguishers. A three burst fire extinguisher doesn't do much in the way of space navigation. Hell, even a 15 burst fire-extinguisher does little for space navigation unless you have very good reflexes and very good latency. The complaint that it will "validate the tactic of cyborgs spacing the armoury during malf"... oh well!. Guess you'd best get a new armoury.
Nanako Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 What actual harm is there to giving fire extinguishers to cyborgs? Cyborgs are supposed to be rigid, limited and specialised machines. This is a philosophy that skull's shown interest in upholding. Giving all of them more general functionality runs counter to that, and makes them more homogenous "But they shouldn't be going into space!" The greatest advantage of being a cyborg is being unaffected by vacuums. Slipping and spacenav errors do also happen. They're going to likely stick around their station anyway, and 3 possible fluid bursts is not going to really allow them to make their own fort somewhere. I'm not seeing how any of this invalidates that argument though. Crisis, mining and engineering borgs are the only ones that have business going into space, and all of those are able to be upgraded with a jetpack In addition, an electrical fire can happen literally anywhere. A fire on a space station built entirely of metal doesn't tend to do much. But hey, even if fires are a possibility, it's a good thing there's a dedicated atmospherics team less than 200m away. Response times are likely to be far faster than any civilian is entitled to You're effectively trying to change something without having a present necessity and reason for it, apparently? I really don't see cyborgs "abusing" their fire extinguishers. They're actually way less effective than they used to be. Surgeon is the only one i've removed it from, the rest that already had it have kept it, but i'm against adding it to anymore Maybe another possible solution would be to add a single-use replenishable method of propulsion for borgs who have none when stuck in space. Either that or the nerfed fire-extinguishers. I don't see any problem to be solved. If you don't have propulsion then don't go on EVA missions. You're a station bound unit, you are supposed to stay on the station. Unless you need to repair a hull breach from the outside, or rescue someone who fell into space, you don't have much reason to go out I was trying to board a raider shuttle as the new combat module, but before I could enter the vessel teleported away. Why though? Why would you go into space, and attempt to board an enemy ship, without proper EVA equipment. You went into a situation you were unprepared for, i don't see why you shouldn't be punished for that. The point you made about fires not being common is also not really realistic, seeing as the station is built around testing a highly flammable element. the research and engineering departments are. But again, dedicated engineering and atmospheric staff onsite, means that putting out firs is not your job. We have firelocks everywhere, the clue is in the name. They contain fires. If fire starts, you evacuate, close the firelock and wait for trained professionals to come and fix it There is no reason for cyborgs not to have fire extinguishers Yes there is, ill summarise them again: 1. Putting out fires is not your job unless you're engineering. 2. Going into space is not your job unless you're engineering, crisis, or mining 3. More equipment means more weight, means more energy usage, means higher maintenance costs. NT Is a profit driven corporation 4. Generically adding equipment to all borgs reduces their specialisation, homogenises them, and runs counter to their design philosophy 5. Fighting slimes is also not your job unless you're in research All I'm seeing again and again is the arguments that it would be useful. Yes it sure would. A free laser carbine, heavy armor, and jetpack for every crewman would also be useful.
LordFowl Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 1: Bullshit. Your job is to protect the station. If a fire is consuming a room you bet your ass you're going to fight it. Vent that shit. Or use a fire extinguisher. 2: Bullshit to this entire argument. A fire extinguisher only aids you in space for quick missions, which are within the purview of cyborgs. They are the natural option for EVA missions because they cannot suffer EVA damage. 3: Bullshit. More equipment means more weight, but the cyborgs can take it if we say they can. 4: Bullshit. Generic equipment across all cyborgs makes cyborgs more reliable in generic situations. Specialization branches out into specific situations. Fighting a fire is the expectation of any personnel in range of the fire, depending on the fire's size. Why should cyborgs be exempt from this, especially when they are best suited otherwise for fighting fires? 5: Cool. Never mentioned that, although this is a good argument for giving the research borg a potent fire extinguisher. Also, your entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that fire extinguishers "invalidate" your snowflake jetpack code. This is utter bollocks. A jetpack is more useful than a fire extinguisher, because a fucking fire extinguisher can only allow x amount of directional changes, and then you're shit out of luck. A jetpack provides virtually infinite mobility.
Nanako Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 1: Bullshit. Your job is to protect the station. If a fire is consuming a room you bet your ass you're going to fight it. Vent that shit. Or use a fire extinguisher. Protecting the station is one of your jobs, protecting yourself is also one. And venting a room is more effective than an extinguisher anyway, which is something any cyborg can do easily. Usually though, you deal with fire best by closing the firelocks and letting it burn itself out, firefighting often isnt even needed 2: Bullshit to this entire argument. A fire extinguisher only aids you in space for quick missions, which are within the purview of cyborgs. They are the natural option for EVA missions because they cannot suffer EVA damage. Certain cyborgs, which are all compatible with jetpack upgrades. The bartender bot has no right going out into space and shouldn't be given anything to help with that. 4: Bullshit. Generic equipment across all cyborgs makes cyborgs more reliable in generic situations. It does. And that's why all cyborgs have common equipment like a light, a radio, wheels or treads to move around on, and a voicebox to vocally communicate. These are generic situations. Fire is not generic, it is a very specific crisis situation, and not in the scope of everyone's duties Fighting a fire is the expectation of any personnel in range of the fire, depending on the fire's size. No it isn't, where did you get this from? The expectation of any personnel in range is to withdraw from the scene and wait for professionals to arrive. Didn't your school ever give you fire drills and safety lessons? In case of a fire, all civilians are expected to drop what they're doing, leave everything behind, and proceed out of the nearest fire exit, to a designated evacuation point. Where they will answer a register to ensure they're all accounted for. This procedure minimises loss of life, and having a register of people makes life easier for emergency services. Keeping them out of the scene of the crisis also allows emergency responders to more effectively do their job without worrying about collateral damage. On a high tech research station, the procedure might be modified a little to include 'Grab the ridiculously expensive experiment on your desk before you go' But NT would certainly not encourage the 50yo research director with 11 PHDs, who the entire station is essentially built to enable, to risk his life skooshing water at a fire, while a whole department of trained engineers is just down the hall. 5: Cool. Never mentioned that, although this is a good argument for giving the research borg a potent fire extinguisher. I agree. Research, crisis and engineering should all have them. No others, unless we add a dedicated atmospherics module imo. Also, your entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that fire extinguishers "invalidate" your snowflake jetpack code. Not really. I just don't want to encourage more playing hero, or empower borgs too much. And if that means leaving them stranded in space as a result of their poor choices, it will be a valueable lesson I'd think you of all people, would understand the importance of punishing people for doing things they shouldn't be doing. Remember all that stuff you just did to the wizard items?
AgentWhatever Posted August 10, 2016 Author Posted August 10, 2016 I checked, you're right. Jetpacks are available to all cyborgs, not just limited to the mining borgs. Makes the suggestion void, really.
AgentWhatever Posted August 10, 2016 Author Posted August 10, 2016 Also, your entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that fire extinguishers "invalidate" your snowflake jetpack code. Not really. I just don't want to encourage more playing hero, or empower borgs too much. And if that means leaving them stranded in space as a result of their poor choices, it will be a valueable lesson I'd think you of all people, would understand the importance of punishing people for doing things they shouldn't be doing. Remember all that stuff you just did to the wizard items? On that note then, could you punish garn for me? He did exactly the same thing but actually got into the ship.
witchbells Posted August 10, 2016 Posted August 10, 2016 Let me get something straight. We actually had something, emergency equipment that is found in lockers all over the station, removed from synthetics because of the potential to power game with it?
Guest Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 Let me get something straight. We actually had something, emergency equipment that is found in lockers all over the station, removed from synthetics because of the potential to power game with it? I hope you like your new coder overlord controlling how the game is balanced because they personally see issues with it and think it should immediately change without any actual discussion on the matter.
LordFowl Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 Let me get something straight. We actually had something, emergency equipment that is found in lockers all over the station, removed from synthetics because of the potential to power game with it? I hope you like your new coder overlord controlling how the game is balanced because they personally see issues with it and think it should immediately change without any actual discussion on the matter. I think you are all somewhat confused. As much as I dislike cyborgs not having fire extinguishers, blaming it on the Coder Illuminati is both childish and wrong. Let me outline a rough chain of events for you. >Winter, 2015: Borgs have fire extinguishers. All is good in life. >Spring, 2016: The Great Update to Baycode commences. Much is lost. Uncounted in the casualties is the sudden disappearance of cyborg fire extinguishers. >Early Summer, 2016: Nanako joins the NSS Aurora Development team. >Late Summer, 2016: A thread pops up, requesting fire extinguishers be added back to cyborgs, Nanako reads it, and creates an unmerged pull request that also removes it from Surgery borgs. Everyone flips out, and assumed she somehow masterminded the total removal in the first place.
Guest Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 In case you couldn't tell, it was a joke. But it's okay, not everyone here gets out much.
DatBerry Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 Imo brogs are bound to the station, if you decide to valid hunt outside then basically rip you, i think only mining really needs it, while engineering can just make floors to move on while going EVA, I dont think the rest need to be out there tbh.
Dreamix Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 What the hell, people. A small fire extinguisher that only has 3 (just three) shots is too much? It cannot be used to validhunt or anything, as it's only three shots. And validhunt should be ahelped and dealt with by the admins, anyway. The extinguisher will mostly be used to cool down a random baldie who set himself on fire, or to return to the station in case of small mistake of a borg slipping and flying away during a EVA patrol or something. All borgs had fire extinguishers on old-code, and no one ever really complained.
Alberyk Posted August 11, 2016 Posted August 11, 2016 All borgs had fire extinguishers on old-code, and no one ever really complained. No, they did not. /obj/item/weapon/robot_module/security name = "security robot module" sensor_mode=SEC_HUD channels=list("Security" = 1) sprites = list( "Basic" = "secborg", "Red Knight" = "Security", "Black Knight" = "securityrobot", "Bloodhound" = "bloodhound") New() src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flashlight(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/handcuffs/cyborg(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/melee/baton/loaded(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/gun/energy/taser/cyborg(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/taperoll/police(src) src.emag = new /obj/item/weapon/gun/energy/laser/cyborg(src) return /obj/item/weapon/robot_module/janitor name = "janitorial robot module" sprites=list( "Basic" = "JanBot2", "Mopbot" = "janitorrobot", "Mop Gear Rex" = "mopgearrex" ) New() src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flashlight(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/soap/nanotrasen(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/storage/bag/trash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/mop(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/lightreplacer(src) src.emag = new /obj/item/weapon/reagent_containers/spray(src) src.emag.reagents.add_reagent("lube", 250) src.emag.name = "Lube spray" return /obj/item/weapon/robot_module/miner name = "miner robot module" channels=list("Supply" = 1) sprites = list( "Basic" = "Miner_old", "Advanced Droid" = "droid-miner", "Treadhead" = "Miner") New() src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flashlight(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/borg/sight/meson(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/wrench(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/screwdriver(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/storage/bag/ore(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/pickaxe/borgdrill(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/storage/bag/sheetsnatcher/borg(src) src.emag = new /obj/item/weapon/pickaxe/plasmacutter(src) return /obj/item/weapon/robot_module/butler name = "service robot module" sprites = list( "Waitress" = "Service", "Kent" = "toiletbot", "Bro" = "Brobot", "Rich" = "maximillion", "Default" = "Service2") New() src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flashlight(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/reagent_containers/food/drinks/cans/beer(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/reagent_containers/food/condiment/enzyme(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/pen/robopen(src) /obj/item/weapon/robot_module/clerical name = "clerical robot module" sprites = list( "Waitress" = "Service", "Kent" = "toiletbot", "Bro" = "Brobot", "Rich" = "maximillion", "Default" = "Service2") New() src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flashlight(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/device/flash(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/pen/robopen(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/form_printer(src) src.modules += new /obj/item/weapon/gripper/paperwork(src) src.emag = new /obj/item/weapon/stamp/denied(src) Source. Not all borgs had a fire extinguisher in old code, only the standard, surgeon, crisis, construction and engineering borg had one, nothing has really changed from what I can see.
Arrow768 Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 I checked, you're right. Jetpacks are available to all cyborgs, not just limited to the mining borgs. Makes the suggestion void, really. OP said that this is no longer needed. Therefore locking and moving to archive.
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