Spawning at the NTCC Odin:

[Arrow768]

Let me ask you that way:

The Aurora/Exodus is not the only Station NT has, is it ?

It is also safe to assume that every station uses different radio frequencies.

Why should NT dedicate resources to monitor every channel of every single station, facility or ship they have ?

Just quickly counting it together we have 8 channels on the station.

Multiply that by lets say 100 Stations/Facilities/Ships they might have. That means there are ~~800 Channels to monitor compared to 1 fax machine thats used if there is some emergency.

Why dedicate resources to monitoring 100s of channels for the off chance that there is problem when you can just instruct command staff to send a fax if something goes sideways ?

They dont dedicate those resources because it would be a utter waste of time and money.

For those few times when something happens there are established channels such as the fax machine that can be used to communicate with command.

So there is no reason for central to listen into the coms of a specific station unless they have reason to do so (And thats when a CCIA Agent is spawned in)

[Brayce]

I for one am strongly opposed to this. It's adding another step to the 'getting ready' phase of the game with the added bonus of having to tediously change our jumpsuits, and grab a few token items before jumping on the shuttle ignoring everyone around us because If we aren't quick our character will be summarily deleted. The time frame Arrow suggested I feel doesn't allow for any of that communication between co-workers at shift-start this is suppose to encourage. You grab you shit, and go as soon as you can to do what you joined to do. It's not much of an issue with the little time given, but what about Borgs, and AI, and Off-station Antags? Could a wizard jump into the station, and threaten security before they could get at their gear? Malf merrily has time to screw some things up before crew can funnel in through the one or two exits from arrivals? Science/Chemistry/Engineering Borg start stuff before crew even boards. This is in addition to the Ghetto ERT, or the "The station is dying can't tell anyone here on the Odin they'll just laugh at me. 'Everything is fine NO FAX HERE'" Assuming comms stay. In short. I'm seeing this screwing with a lot of things that don't need screwing with, and getting little in return. Immersion is great, but this is a game. I for one am happy to give up the immersion of having to Change cloths/Get my stuff/drive my car/bus/space shuttle to work in exchange for the anti-frustration feature of the game assuming that I do that enough in real life, and I'll be happy to have it all done for me, and conveniently place me where I'm suppose to be with the stuff I'm suppose to have.

[Guest]

Lifeweb already has a system like this, where people spawn at a train station then take the train to get to the fort. There's no reason for people wanting to stay over at the train station (though that's mainly thanks to the mechanics implemented in lifeweb). Only ONCE have I ever seen people stay at the train station rather than opt to go to the fort.

EDIT: And it's without a doubt, the lifeweb community is a lot worse along with their actions in game.

And no, you don't need to state "But lifeweb is a different game, waaaaaah waaaaaaah!". I know it's a different game. Thank you Mr/Miss obvious. The point that's being presented is the idea and how its played out, because the ideas are very similar if not the same.

I really don't see the basis of the argument of "Well people will stay on Odin if they hear bad things happening!". Here's an eye opener for you:

They do that anyway...

gasp!

People will naturally stay on the arrivals shuttle if they spawn in and hear shit hitting the fan. They also know they're somewhat safe (common sense would dictate that things can still happen, like meteors or other events. Again, no need to state the obvious things) due to the rules on attacking people at arrivals.

I haven't seen a single complaint against that...

There is no difference between people staying on the arrivals shuttle for safety and people staying on Odin for safety, aside from the fact that they have a somewhat higher death chance on the arrivals shuttle. Even if a system to force people off from Odin was implemented, you will still find people staying on the arrivals shuttle. So in all honesty, the argument of "Well people will stay on Odin if they hear bad things happening!" is a moot point and holds no weight. Because you're removing them from camping at one point, to camp at another. You've not made any progress. Well done.

Whilst mechanics to force people off Odin seems useful, I personally don't think it's needed. Players should have the understanding capacity that this isn't a place for them to sit and loiter at. If they're even playing on this server, they should have the understanding it's not a chair-rp server in the first place. If players can not be trusted to do such a little thing of "get off butts and get to station." then they're not very good at being a player, are they? Along with that point, it falls to being an administrative issue. People found abusing it will get slapped on the wrist for it. Players should be aware that doing an action that's disliked or not warranted will lead to consequences. We don't need to spoon feed people.

[Nanako]

Where exactly did you get this information from?? It is said in the lore that there is at MOST 10 CCIA on the NTCC Odin.

I never specified only CCIA, i'm talking about the Odin crew, its captains, engineers, telecomms handlers, logicstics coordinators, etc

 

Why should NT dedicate resources to monitor every channel of every single station, facility or ship they have ?

Just quickly counting it together we have 8 channels on the station.

Multiply that by lets say 100 Stations/Facilities/Ships they might have. That means there are ~~800 Channels to monitor compared to 1 fax machine thats used if there is some emergency.

 

Nah, this just doesn't fly.

We already have the technology, here and now, for automated monitoring of millions of emails, calls, texts etc, its used to detect and prevent terrorism. Add 400 years to that, and in an era of sophisticated AIs

Yes they would dedicate the resources to monitoring every channel of every station. Because it'd be a trivial thing to do then, and because it'd pay for itself in the billions saved in not losing stations

ITs not hard to setup a computer to scan only certain channels (like command and security) for certain keywords (nuke, terrorist, bomb, crisis, emergency, etc) and filter out 99% of the noise to create a minimal list of possibly suspicious things for a human to review, or even an AI. Our station AI proves perfectly capable of interpreting the intent and context of messages

I cannot reconcile any situation where most of the things that happen in the game would be possible, without communication with central being heavily limited and restricted. And this whole spawning on odin feature introduces massive cognitive dissonance.

[Shadow]

I am breaking my own rules that I made a while ago, however, Nanako, you are making things up. Before you do that ask Jackboot, please.

The NTCC has exactly one stationary AI, and thats Alice.

[Nanako]

Lifeweb already has a system like this, where people spawn at a train station then take the train to get to the fort.

And its a shitty system.

You very often fall down a dark hole in the train station, or get murdered while walking through lowtown, or get stuck there because nobody is running the lift, or get trapped in the station because nobody came down to open the gate. Latejoining in lifeweb is a huge gamble.

And they DONT use this system for people who join at roundstart.

 

There's no reason for people wanting to stay over at the train station (though that's mainly thanks to the mechanics implemented in lifeweb).

Because you need water to not-die and there's none there.

And the very major difference you need to consider, lifeweb is a post apocalyptic setting, full of desperate people trying to survive, the fortress is most people's whole world.

In SS13, the station is just a workplace, for many highly paid middle-class employees with plenty of education and skills to find a job elsewhere. They are not all desperate survivors, they are normal people, average joes, who only want to go to work. It makes zero sense for them to go into work if they know that their workplace is under attack and there's a significant chance of death.

Nobody with a brain or a choice, risks their life for a corporation or to keep their job. Doctors, scientists and engineers are always needed everywhere, and they can go elswhere if NT can't provide a safe workplace. Try putting yourself in that situation. Your boss calls up one morning to say there's a bomb in the office and all your coworkers are being held at gunpoint, but if you don't turn up you're fired. Is your job worth that? Even if you're dirt poor and at risk of starvation or eviction if you lose your job, it's still not worth risking death.

The reason these average people are on the station at all during antag rounds is because they had no foreknowledge that these events would/were happen, and were thrown unexpectedly into the middle of dangerous situations they're not prepared for. Even latejoiners, just got on a shuttle expecting a normal pleasant workday, and not to arrive to bloodstained hallways and corpses littering the station.. IF you take away the unexpectedness, you take away all reason for them to be there at all

 

They do that anyway...

gasp!

People will naturally stay on the arrivals shuttle if they spawn in and hear shit hitting the fan. They also know they're somewhat safe (common sense would dictate that things can still happen, like meteors or other events. Again, no need to state the obvious things) due to the rules on attacking people at arrivals.

 

I disagree. People who hang around the arrivals shuttle are few, and tend not to do well. It's surrounded in glass, making arrivals one of the most common places to get vented

Usually people run to their department in a crisis because anywhere with equipment, and away from the outer hull, is safer than arrivals.

 

There is no difference between people staying on the arrivals shuttle for safety and people staying on Odin for safety, aside from the fact that they have a somewhat higher death chance on the arrivals shuttle. Even if a system to force people off from Odin was implemented, you will still find people staying on the arrivals shuttle.

 

An antagonist can still walk onto the shuttle and murder you. That's one very huge difference. They can't take a shuttle back to odin and stab you there.

[Guest]

Before I start replying. I urge you deeply to do your research into a game and know what you're talking about before you talk about it. Allow me to display my responses. I also highly advise before quoting someone and posting, you actually perhaps read what they've written?

 

Lifeweb already has a system like this, where people spawn at a train station then take the train to get to the fort.

And its a shitty system.

You very often fall down a dark hole in the train station, or get murdered while walking through lowtown, or get stuck there because nobody is running the lift, or get trapped in the station because nobody came down to open the gate. Latejoining in lifeweb is a huge gamble.

And they DONT use this system for people who join at roundstart.

 

Invalid point. The point I made was on the idea of what this thread is suggesting and providing how another game does it. The games are two completely different games with different mechanics. Discussing mechanics doesn't hold purpose for your argument because it's not the point being discussed in the first place.

If you're going to talk mechanics, knowing I've had more experience than yourself on that game, allow me to explain. There are many ways for one to leave the train station on lifeweb when it was in lowtown and make it to the surface. Was it a gamble? Sure. But that's besides the point, because that had to do with the setting of the game. Which was a point that... ahem... was not being discussed.

Using the premise of map-work or player actions to uphold your argument doesn't serve a purpose. Since using a few brain cells, you could easily avoid the well known static location of the holes and just learn how to defend yourself against other player.

 

There's no reason for people wanting to stay over at the train station (though that's mainly thanks to the mechanics implemented in lifeweb).

Because you need water to not-die and there's none there.

 

The old map, there was a drink vendor at the spawn location. On the current map, there's a drink vendor upstairs and if the Sheriff is kind enough, he has a sink and a mug. Evidence that you've clearly not researched the game properly nor know what weight your points even hold. (Which is none, mind you.)

 

And the very major difference you need to consider, lifeweb is a post apocalyptic setting, full of desperate people trying to survive, the fortress is most people's whole world.

In SS13, the station is just a workplace, for many highly paid middle-class employees with plenty of education and skills to find a job elsewhere. They are not all desperate survivors, they are normal people, average joes, who only want to go to work. It makes zero sense for them to go into work if they know that their workplace is under attack and there's a significant chance of death.

Nobody with a brain or a choice, risks their life for a corporation or to keep their job. Doctors, scientists and engineers are always needed everywhere, and they can go elswhere if NT can't provide a safe workplace.

The reason these people are on the station at all during antag rounds is because they had no foreknowledge that these events would/were happen, and were thrown unexpectedly into the middle of dangerous situations they're not prepared for. IF you take away the unexpectedness, you take away all reason for them to be there at all

 

As was stated earlier. The only thing, which mind you was clearly stated by myself in my post, if you had read it, that was being discussed about lifeweb was the idea and system in place for the train station and the similarities it holds to the idea that is being proposed by Lord Fowl. Bringing up a point of the games setting is, again futile, because it wasn't the point being discussed in the first place.

 

They do that anyway...

gasp!

People will naturally stay on the arrivals shuttle if they spawn in and hear shit hitting the fan. They also know they're somewhat safe (common sense would dictate that things can still happen, like meteors or other events. Again, no need to state the obvious things) due to the rules on attacking people at arrivals.

 

I disagree. People who hang around the arrivals shuttle are few, and tend not to do well. It's surrounded in glass, making arrivals one of the most common places to get vented

Usually people run to their department in a crisis because anywhere with equipment, and away from the outer hull, is safer than arrivals.

 

I don't think you read my post here. Allow me to re-iterate:

(common sense would dictate that things can still happen, like meteors or other events. Again, no need to state the obvious things)

 

There is no difference between people staying on the arrivals shuttle for safety and people staying on Odin for safety, aside from the fact that they have a somewhat higher death chance on the arrivals shuttle. Even if a system to force people off from Odin was implemented, you will still find people staying on the arrivals shuttle.

 

An antagonist can still walk onto the shuttle and murder you. That's one very huge difference. They can't take a shuttle back to odin and stab you there.

 

Seems like you didn't read what I wrote again. Allow me to re-iterate again:

aside from the fact that they have a somewhat higher death chance on the arrivals shuttle.

EDIT: Oh, since I understand people don't like reading text walls, here is a TL;DR: (Which I also put in my first post, but I guess people just don't read. What can you do?)

 

And no, you don't need to state "But lifeweb is a different game, waaaaaah waaaaaaah!". I know it's a different game. Thank you Mr/Miss obvious. The point that's being presented is the idea and how its played out, because the ideas are very similar if not the same.

[Tainavaa]

I read this thread. People are disagreeing in it! I am ready to also be disagreed with.

Nikov raises an excellent point I think in regards to everybody starting at the beginning of the round. Just makes a barrier to the actual game. It's akin to the advertisements before a movie in a movie theater. Yes, it gives you a nice warning that the movie is about to start and you should get comfortable and ready for it to start but honestly, you should have fucking done that beforehand and paid attention to the time. If you're honestly not comfortable and at least SOMEWHAT prepared for the movie, what have you even been doing for the past half hour? Everyone's gotta wait through the advertisements for your slow, lazy ass because you literally could not prepare yourself to watch a movie you went out of your way and paid living, breathing money for and waited for half an hour to go see. This is a counterpoint to whoever gave that pros and cons list for people starting on Odin.

I think at best, only late joiners should spawn at Odin because it is a legitimate design, as PumpkingSlice pointed out with lifeweb, but the lifeweb community is vastly different to Aurora's as well. The difference in community mentality I think definitely has some weight in determining outcomes of this. Overall I think Nanako is generally correct. Might be interesting for latejoiners but it's going to be an awful implementation if you decide not to work out the kinks using the logic of "it's how it's always been done" when it's literally never been relevant until now.

also why are we arguing about lifeweb it was brought up as a point of reference where the implementation was successful centcom isn't going to have a deep railroad tunnel for you to accidentally fall off of and get stabbed by a hobo under that wasn't even brought up in Pump's point and is entirely irrelevant just saying

[Dreamix]

It's all nice and nice. But what about this.

If I join the game and spawn on Odin while there are nuke ops on-station, and I hear in my headset people screaming in pain and other things indicating that horrors are happening on-station. Any sane character would just leave or go to back to cryo (there should be cryo in there for obvious reasons), right? Is it extreme power gaming and validhunting if I board the shuttle knowing that I'm about to die? Because people like these should at least get some warnings. It should not happen. There are some extremely robust individuals who would abuse this to rush and kill antags. And I'm 100% sure this will not be fun. Shuttle spawn should not be allowed on code red. Only cryo, because it makes people unaware to what's happening on-station, until they're actually a part of it.

I already regret choosing the first option.

[LordFowl]

I should ask you all to stop arguing, and talking past one another, and if once you have done this and still wish to talk, I ask you begin to debate as opposed to fight. As the developer in charge of the map, I am not convinced by petulant squabbling. These past two pages are borne of a miscommunication in the staff chat. I did not authoratively state that I would not consider the telecomms issue - I merely said I would not consider it yet. Rest assured I will take into account the many points that have been raised here...and then repeated...and then repeated again.

On that note, blind repetition is an impressive literary element, but it is not a particularly effective rhetoric. Do not raise any more topics of discussion unless they are new points. Thank you.

[Tainavaa]

When you make preparations for a project, it is generally a smart idea to take into consideration factors that will effect the outcome of the project and consider routes to take to overcome these factors rather than to dismiss it until you've decided whether to continue with the project or not. That's just bad planning.

[LordFowl]

Circumstantially, this thread also happens not to be the proper location to critique my mode of planning, but thank you for the input, off-topic as it may be.

[Bedshaped]

I think this is a good idea and definitely worth contributing resources to.

One milestone I'd like to see for this game is to make everything seem more polished and a game world that feels "lived in".

Having the player transport over from another extraneous location would certainly make it feel less like the Exodus is the entire universe.

[Fox009]

I like the idea, in theory, but I just don't think it'll work well in practice. Also, how much work would this honestly take to implement? I'd imagine quite a bit.

[Nikov]

Nobody cares what happens on the Odin. We're telling a story every round, and nobody tunes in to Star Trek to watch Kirk shave and put on his red sweater. The point of rounds is television episodes of our fairly consistent characters in a fairly consistent setting meeting wildly different challenges and returning a little older and wiser, but still fairly consistent, the next round. What this proposes is to move toward adding five to fifteen minutes of entirely inconsequential busywork on top of the five to fifteen minutes of inconsequential busywork we already have to go through starting engines or whatever other departments do for a living. Furthermore this introduces new challenges to the moderator staff;

IS THE ODIN OUT-OF-PLAY?

By which I mean, if an antag starts on the Odin, can he engage in antaggery on the Odin? Murder? Well its close to round start. Blood drinking a somewhat willing RP partner? Questionable. Stealthily stealing DNA as a changeling? Its not hurting anyone. Convert some fellow revs? Meet your fellow cultists and exchange words?

If the Odin is out of play, why spawn on it? If the Odin is in play, why leave it?

Ordinarily we are on the Odin only when the round is over, no combat is allowed and any violations of this rule results in a three day ban. What happens when Urist McNew doesn't realize he's on the Odin, thinks we just have a really neat new map, and throws a punch in an argument? Breaks a window? Breaks a window to space? We have no atmospherics network on the Odin. While I think most of the Odin is unsimulated, its still a risk.

If your intention is to come in and chair RP / PDA love notes with your friends, why leave the Odin's bar?

If I hear "MALF AI" or "WIZARD" (or various far more subtle means by which players get around the no-meta rules) and I have a personal distaste for those rounds, do I have any reason to board the shuttle and go into an experience I'll dislike? Some players already cryo the moment its apparent Malf is running. Now they won't even be around to set up the engine or drop their gear off before finding a tube on the ODIN, or will instead participate in the Odin's Bar RP.

Will you punish them for coming on the server and deciding to not do things they don't want to?

Look, a majority of people want this. If you went down the street and asked people if they wanted the government to give everyone free healthcare, they'd agree. But if its implemented poorly everyone will be taking two chickens and a bottle of rum to make sure their doctor isn't conveniently "out of your prescription", or taxed half their income to pay the way for the unemployed. Pure democracies don't work for a reason. You have to have serious people who look seriously at the issues a proposal raises willing to say no to the masses, or even those willing and able to see the plan fulfilled, because it creates problems that conflict with the big picture.

LordFowl can make this happen. I'm confident in his abilities. Once its happened, however, I'm not so sure it will be worth the problems and questions that arise. Nobody's paying LordFowl, his time is his own to spend on what he wants. I respect that. But once completed, sixty people will spend five to fifteen minutes going through a new routine for the start of every round. That's a lot of playtime, especially for those trying to catch a round after work, and it adds up to a lot of playtime better spent on the station. It also means a lot of new administration questions, bwoinks, bans; avoidable unpleasantness. I just don't feel like the balance of pros and cons favor the proposal.