... And then, Man made the Machine in His likeness.

[CakeIsOssim]

Bless all forms of Intelligence.

Welcome, I'm glad you're here reading this. I know that there's been quite a few synthetic lore developer rotations. I'm here to reassure you that I intend to stay. I'm also here for two other reasons and those are going to require a lot more reading sorry.

So, topic number one: How do you feel about the previous changes and declarations made about synthetics and/or IPCs in general? Please be as open as you like. I'd like to know how all of you feel about the previous changes made, as I understand there was confusion, frustration, and fear. Let me add to this that I do not intend to make any drastic changes any time soon. This includes the retconning or redaction of anything any of the previous synthetic lore developers did, unless I find that it's not up to par with the server's robotic flow.

I've been discussing the whole idea behind shards with the previous lore developer, and I've yet to come to any concrete conclusions. So, for now, the inability for AI to be sharded will be staying. This is subject to possible change at any time in the near future, so expect news on that.

Topic number two is: What do I intend to do with synthetics immediately and in the future? The latter part of that question is difficult to answer right now, but give me some time and I'm sure I'll come up with something nice and cool. Radical changes aren't really my thing, once again, so don't expect many, or any, of those. As for immediate changes, I've already been discussing mechanical changes to each of the subtype IPCs. Mainly, how their cooling works. This is still up in the air and can change at any time. As I've said earlier, I'm also still discussing things with the appropriate people (including you, reader) about shards. Another idea I had in mind was to separate the IPC page from "general synthetics" page. This is because all IPCs are AI, but not all AI are IPCs.

Transparency is good, but you can't make everyone happy. Remember that. I'm here to gather information because I actually really need it, to better suit my position as a lore developer for the community. I do have one request, though, that if you're going to gripe about the constant passing of the baton, please at least humor the first question posed. Yes, I know I've inherited a position that's been popular for its ability to change overseers quite often. I ask you to look passed that for now, because I don't intend on going anywhere.

[Shadow]

When will you retire? The future synth devs are already waiting for their 24 hour turn.

Now that infamous antag contest is over and synths had a close victory, do you have any other plans regarding synths affecting the galaxy?

[CakeIsOssim]

When will you retire? The future synth devs are already waiting for their 24 hour turn.

Now that infamous antag contest is over and synths had a close victory, do you have any other plans regarding synths affecting the galaxy?

 

Synthetics being considered people will slowly (not like, painfully slowly - I mean this as in over time) be normalized in society. The close victory assures that synthetics will still not be trusted with their newfangled title of "actually sentient, wow." Tau Ceti being the hugbox that it is, we will see more developments with Tau Ceti and synthetic rights than we will with any other state, more than likely. Specifics are unclear as of this moment, but there will be developments and I think they will be received well.

[Synnono]

How do you feel about the previous changes and declarations made about synthetics and/or IPCs in general?

In my opinion, our 'old' lore for the types of different AIs, and the overall flexibility those types of AIs gave to players to write interesting character concepts was suitably good fiction for a group RP fantasy setting. Yes, it was not 100% realistic, and yes, it was contradictory and incomplete in places (like almost every facet of the lore as it exists right now), but it left room for player creativity and improvement via addition, rather than subtraction. To me, the greatest strength of the synthetic 'race' is that their extreme variance and potential make them unique to every other species - even to humans, who all the other species emulate or caricaturize in some way.

The recent posibrain changes were an interesting step in the direction of realism, but I believe they took away more options than they provided to players, while not addressing the stated goal of "making IPCs less of a meme race." As Jackboot once put forward, we're playing more of a science-fantasy than a science-fiction, and more than one mind is at work in shaping the setting. A single vision will probably not make it all the way to universal acceptance unscathed, especially when the goal is (arguably) to have fun, rather than to perfect the simulation. From my time participating in/building worlds for roleplay's sake, it seems apparent to me that players will always find ways to subvert background lore if they want to, no matter how hard the setting or the DM try to stop it. Because of that, I disliked the idea of cleaving through the previous fiction to try and address problems with a handful of players, and I still do.

As a quick thought regarding the contest and the community perception of IPCs: I believe there is more to gain than there is to lose by enabling them to move beyond the perception that they are robots with hard limits and/or luxury property, and nothing more. There will still be players who choose to be that more robotic, limited form because it suits their characters, but the potential for synthetic life to blur the lines of those expectations are part of what makes it all very compelling for me. I would hate to see questions about those blurry lines written out of our setting by a background that is too stark or exclusive.

 

What do I intend to do with synthetics immediately and in the future?

• What is, in your opinion, 'the server's robotic flow?' In terms of characters and lore, we have players who feel that the line needs to be drawn at "beep boop open door" roleplay, players who like to blur the line between traits that are "real" and traits that are emulated, and players who, for better or for worse, would like to play as though they are entirely organic but also metal. What is your sweet spot for supporting lore on that spectrum, keeping in mind both your own vision and those of the people whose characters you'll affect with your writing?
   
   
  
• How do you intend to address players who disrupt that flow I asked you to define above?
   
   
  
• What do you consider to be some of your primary influences for writing synthetic fiction, and how does that play into any of your short-term plans, if at all?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond, and for making this thread to prompt discussion.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Guest

[MoondancerPony]

I'm curious, have you read anything by Asimov? He's a great source on robot lore, and what Muncorn's lore was partially based off of; I find that the parts that are based off of Asimov's stories are a lot more agreeable and fun for roleplay than others. It strikes a great balance between synthetic and organic in terms of personality, and even if it's not used much it's still a great base,

Also, here's my review-ish thing of the Positronic Brain page I did a while ago. http://pastebin.com/b71eXCfi

[XenosTiger]

Hullo here, resident Cyborg player here. I don't really have much to say about this, other than to make a few points that I consider to be relatively important. As Syno said, the Synthetic "race" has one strength that makes them so compelling for me to play them- and, I think, quite a few other people. And that strength is their diversity. Robots who are the bare minimum of what someone would describe as "intelligent", like Ecom, who work almost entirely through pre-programmed responses and method calls... Positronic AI units that range from barely more complex than a robot, to beings that are capable of emulating emotion to such a degree that, if put in a Shell, they would almost entirely pass as human... To Cyborgs- the wildcards. The ones that I feel people have fleshed out the least, but who are sentient brains put inside some magical device to let them interface with machines, but never again with an organic body. Attempts have been made to strip them of that individuality, in the past. Yes, they would adhere more to "realism", but, at the same time, it would have made them bland, dull, and generally unappealing to most people who play them- which is a major issue for me.

Epsilon, for example. You either love her or you hate her (Or you think "Muh realisums" when you see her)- but, for better or for worse, Epsilon was made by two things. Practically no lore or guidelines for Cyborgs here, leading me to base her around Bay... And a desire to push people into the Uncanny Valley- a cyborg that acts and, for the most part, _feels_ like a person. Yes, she's still bound by her laws. Yes, she will dutifully serve anyone that gives her a command that can be followed. But most people that actually get to know her, end up trusting her enough that, even without laws, they'd feel safe around her. And in the end, what concerns me most is thus: Which way will the lore go? Allow or deny, Stationbounds need some major work done, I think.

[MatterL]

I haven't been around for a whole long time, but in this short time I've grown to see the various ways of playing people take to playing synthetics of every kind whether it be station-bound or IPC. I haven't gotten to sit through a lot of the changes in the past or at least wasn't paying enough attention to realize that they were happening but I have seen the effects that the lore has had on the community. In my opinion there appears to be a massive split between players who, for some reason, are entirely and utterly against synthetics having 'feelings' or even sentience for that matter and players who enjoy dealing with synthetics as if they were people. A few remain in between or simply don't care but the rift between the two sides seems to cause such horrible tension that the community feels downright toxic to talk to when conversation starts up about 'synthetic rights'. It's like people are forgetting this is a GAME.

Truly that seems to be what needs to be focused on with Synthetics is that this is at the very base, a game. Whether people are here to live out fantasies they can't or won't in life, or simply as an escape or time passer, we're all here to play a game. The alien races are all at their core humans because they have humans playing them and no matter how hard humans try they cannot derive away from their human nature enough to portray a alien race that feels alien (those people who can do this should be writing books, as there are a few good examples out there). The same goes for synthetics though! A human cannot possibly be a computer because computers lack everything that makes a human what they are, and it's beyond difficult for a person to accurately portray that (with a few notable examples out there but they make up such a infinitesimally small percentage that holding everyone to that standard is unfair). So demanding that synthetics, who are played by humans, not be as human as some appear to be seems like an extremely hard thing to demand of them.

I'm not saying there should be huge changes, or even any. There seems to be a decent line right now with some synthetics being more human than others and with good reasons behind each one. The fact that they can't feel pain like a person can or have to deal with issues that people does alone makes them stand out enough from normal biological matter that demanding that even their personality be so different makes them more alien than any species and without a whitelist behind them makes it unfair to hold them to standards that other species are not.

[Scheveningen]

You're going to wipe that famous synthetics page off the wiki, right?

Not that it's the only thing I care about but my detail hasn't been mentioned yet and I hate to be redundant or echo what others say.

[MoondancerPony]

Some of the famous synthetics are okay. Are... shudder Kibz Snarble and Jim gone yet?

EDIT: Also the comment about Glorsh possibly proving Timeless Decision Theory was a nice touch. I like whichever former synth loredev added that.

[Garnascus]

I think all distinctiveness is lost when someone plays an IPC with real emotions. Do you think this is an issue?

[CakeIsOssim]

...

...

 

I will answer your questions at the same time because the answer I have for one of them relates to generally the same thing.

The "robotic flow" is how the community imagines and plays out their machines. While some are robotic and linear, and others are more human-like in their behavior, they remain fundamentally the same. Of course this has its limits. When creating a synthetic, you have a blank canvas, but painting whatever you wanted without even looking at your reference material would turn out quite eccentric. We've had examples of this in the past leading to whitelist strips, and I won't be mentioning any names. The beauty of synthetics is that there is no "standard." I mean, not one that is as linear as, say, a Unathi from Moghes whom is also not a guwan. My personal view of synthetics goes a little something like... cold, distant, disconnected, but not emotionless. It would have trouble understanding and relating to human emotion, while attempting to help humans understand its own form of emotion. Actions dictated maybe not so much by logic, but by intelligence, experience, and the synthetic's opinion (or, emotion) towards said subject requiring action.

My favorite robot ever is without a doubt Ultron. I'm sure that was obvious, though. Ultron is not without emotion, and while it does dictate some of his actions, it doesn't really get in his way. And while he's insanely smart, he's equally as arrogant, and this arrogance usually results in whatever plans he made to be smashed to pieces by the Avengers (MCU is reluctantly included in this). I can name many examples of other synthetics I deeply enjoy: Chappie (even though the movie kind of sucked, the way the AI is portrayed is quite interesting), the androids from Alien, SHODAN, BT-7274, Jane (from Speaker For the Dead), Kaizen-85, Bomb 20 (even though it was a satire), and HAL-9000. There's so many more but I could go on all day. HAL-9000 is a good one, because it's a great example of what I think an AI would do if it went completely off of its rocker; terrifyingly logical, and what we can perceive as instant decision making. Bomb 20's a good one too, because even though it came to the decision that it needed to explode, the crew convinced it to do otherwise.

Really, I believe it's very difficult to push the limits of what you can do with synthetics. You have the freedom to be very creative. There is such thing as too much creativity, however. These players would have to be assisted in toning it back, back to the reference material, so to speak.

 

...

 

Some of the notable synthetics, I really do not like. And I know I'm not alone. Expect these to change, probably soon. Not sure how I feel about Jim, though, TBH. Like, actually on the fence, not the kind of "hmm I dunno..." that makes you seem like you don't like it.

 

...

 

I believe that was botanistpower/rrrrrrr but I could be wrong. I like it a lot, too. Ties into what I said about HAL-9000 earlier.

 

...

 

Depends on the level of emotion displayed. I personally believe synthetics should not be running around as if they had a nervous system to experience the level of emotion that humans, or otherwise, experience. The way synthetics should experience and display emotion should be on the colder and more distant side, or whatever form of display fits best with the fact that they are a machine, made of metal, silicon, and surviving on code. No, this does not mean all synthetics should be mindless, emotionless automatons. Application of you own interpretation is very, very important.

 

...

 

If you mean which way the lore will go for cyborgs, likely the same way it will go with the rest of them. Cyborgs are actually outdated, but the technology to create them continues to improve. As a cyborg, you have just as much freedom in being an individual as any other synthetic. But, your reasoning for such relies more on the fact that you have an actual organic brain, even if it was wiped of everything that made it human, or otherwise. Station bound synthetics will fall under the work done for general synthetics, as they're just synthetics but bound to the station.

[CakeIsOssim]

Something else I forgot to talk about was AI and sentience. While, thanks to the antag contest, synthetics may be considered legally sentient, the argument about whether or not they actually are will remain. No definitive answer should ever be given whether or not AI is sentient. The vagueness of it, I think, is the basis of the eternal argument between organics and synthetics: "you're just a machine and you don't know anything about being alive or life itself." It poses a very interesting argument, because if we assume an AI is sentient, it has no way of proving that any other biological life is also sentient. A double edged sword.

[MoondancerPony]

I really like AIs that you can reason with, like Bomb-20 (even though I've never seen it, only a few short clips). Though I may be biased because I plan to go into AI research in real life, and decision theory is a big part of that kind of thing.

I also like the comment about synthetics having trouble understanding human emotions despite having their own emotions, simulated or otherwise. That's good; I feel like a good alternative to being emotionless is having a sort of 'orange and blue morality' kind of thing. Some might take the utilitarian standpoint, and others might have very eccentric emotions or habits (being disgusted by stamps or compulsively collecting pens, for example), depending on their creator.

Also, just for clarification, pAIs are made using classical circuitry and robotics, right?

EDIT: Just saw your post about AIs and (I'm assuming you meant) sapience. I like that. It should be up to the characters to develop their own opinions on the matter, and for some players (cough cough) to do research to prove or refute AI sapience.

[Chada1]

Okay, so. Where do I start.

I guess i'll start here, i've found myself in an extremely unique position compared to most other Synthetic players, because i've actually benefitted massively on the Character front from the recent addition to Positronic Brains. It gave me a way to explain how my character is the way they are, in a completely grounded in the Lore way. In the end it started to feel like I was actually playing a character in the story, as opposed to something I just made up on the spot. It made them feel Real. I understand we don't need 'Realism', but sensifying things to a basic level is Not realism. My question here is; What do you see yourself doing with that page and on that subject in general?

This question will be more asking for your opinion, on something that has really bothered me alot lately. I'm not against Synthetics having Emotion, as a whole, but i've noticed many people, especially in Muncorns opinion thread, seem to think that not having Emotion means your character is confined to 'Beep boop open door' levels of interaction. As someone who actually plays an Emotionless Android, I find that extremely offensive. Can you or can you not have opinions and Personality despite not having Emotion? I've actually been called out in OOC recently by someone for my character having an opinion, due to my Android acting Robotic, that player assumed since my character acted Robotic, it had no ability of thought, despite being an Android. My perspective (And it's very noticeable in my character) is that they CAN have an opinion and Personality, it's still an Android and has the ability of self-thought, the opinions and Personality would just be based on other things besides Emotion, like scripted Morality, and ... well, a lot of other things. My questions here are; Do you think it's fair that I see it this way? And if you do, do you think it's unfair that they see it that way?

Okay, the less personal and more generic questions.

How do you see yourself expanding Synthetic Lore in the future?

Do you intend to fix any of the consistency holes currently in the Lore? (There are a lot)

What will you do regarding Robotic Synthetics?

There is clearly a very vocal group worried about Emotional Synthetics, but i'm worried about Robotic Synthetics, if Emotional Synthetics became the standard, what would happen to the Robotic sub-category that is already so little of the population...? Why would a Company use Robotic Synthetics if all Synthetics were affordably capable of advanced Emotion?... My fear is having my playstyle stripped away for another, the same exact thing the Emotional Synthetic players are afraid of, but on the other side.

What is your stance on Lore Canonisation applications, do you have one?

PS: I would say a 'Robotic flow' depends solely on being Robotic, therefore, instead of calling that a 'Robotic flow', I would suggest calling it a 'Synthetic flow', as it encompasses all Synthetics instead of only the 'Robotic' sub-category, of which I specifically and lovingly belong to. Afterall, if it were only Robotic, the answer would be clear -- It would have to be Robotic. not 'Beep boop open door' but Robotic. >.>

[MoondancerPony]

I'm worried that this is going the same way Muncorn's lore did, except... worse.

Changes haven't been detailed, at least publicly. Players' characters are being singled out and when they disagree they're basically told to shove it. Feedback has been disregarded, dismissed and ignored.

In fact, it seems a lot like Muncorn's original plans, except no attempt to reconcile this with the playerbase has happened. Your lore hasn't been made publicly available, and your original plans were 'I don't know what I'm going to do yet'. That's fine, but you should at least update the players.

Your proposed or already-done changes seem to reduce the good parts of the lore and bolster the bad parts. For example, lowering synthetics' emotional capacities (in fact, entirely demolishing it in some cases) as well as redacting multiple characters' backstories (not even publicly, mind you, so others know if their characters are affected) affects the lore in other ways, too. Why would there be any strife over whether synthetics are people if they're easily and discernibly not emotional or intelligent enough to pass as human? The effects of basically neutering characters and their personalities seem to not have been thought through properly.

There also seems to be at least a mild aversion to scientific plausibility, though this is strange as I've seen you talk about other technological things in-depth with Lohikar, i.e. data storage methods. However, whenever the scientific plausibility of cyborgs being given a lobotomy is brought up it seems to be dismissed, though this issue may have been resolved already. Even then, issues of scientific plausibility seem to pop up and yet they still get entirely disregarded. Yes, Aurora's lore is science-fiction. However, you're focusing too much on the fiction and not on the science.

Several times, people have tried to work out these issues with you. I'm pretty sure Nursie and Lohikar have discussed cyborgs extensively with you, and yet every time you seem to forget the past conversations. To be frank, it makes giving feedback like listening to a broken record.

Overall, this is very disappointing, since it started so promising. You seem to have reneged on your original (very nebulous) promises and seem to be doing the same thing Muncorn did, harm players' characters and the lore at large in order to make it your own personal vision. (The title of this thread is also rather worrying.)

EDIT:

An addendum. Making lore more restrictive won't make bad players, roleplayers, or characters good. It'll only hurt the players who are trying to be lore-compliant, while the ones who ignore or go against lore won't care. Lots of players have tried to work with loredevs on these things, and it's sort of sad that you seem to be so convicted and dogmatic you won't consider the opinion of the players.

A species loredev should help facilitate roleplay of the species they develop. This means that loredevs have at least some sort of small obligation to their players. You're doing the same thing Muncorn did; making it more restrictive and unenjoyable to better fit your personal design for synthetics, with little to no consideration for others.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Guest

[XenosTiger]

Literally the only thing I'm going to say here is this. More rules won't stop bad players from being bad. It will only stop good players from being good- and make more good players become perceived as bad. The people who try to match the lore will be worried sick about it... and the people who don't give a shit about lore will continue to not give a shit about lore.

[Scheveningen]

Certainly had more to say in OOC than just that. Wonder where all that went, XenosTiger. Wonder where all of the rest of the upcoming feedback from other people was bound to be posted on this thread as well, I certainly would've applauded their honesty and appreciated the fact they took more than two minutes to type something different from "I'm so indifferent about this but I'm going to be spiteful anyway."

It is rather odd when people complain about never being heard for their feedback when they do not say a damn thing to begin with. Not even anything meaningful, they just leave off with a sour and spiteful jab and do not contribute a lick of their completely uncensored opinions on subjects they still care about. How can any of you act so complacent if you have stake in something you find important? Why are you surprised when your dismissive attitudes get rather ironically dismissed for being dismissive and negative? And rightfully so.

People who follow the rules and keep the focus on fun that isn't just their own will never run into trouble with staff.

 

and the people who don't give a shit about lore will continue to not give a shit about lore.

 

Funny enough, these people get banned and if they had whitelists before, they lose those privileges. So yeah, really, if you have anyone in mind that fits that bill, you can rest assured we were likely already tracking them if they weren't already down the creek. The assumption and exaggeration that we let troublemakers do whatever they want is unfortunately not really nested upon any solid foundation to be remotely true. Because we kick ass and take names.

[CakeIsOssim]

...

 

First, let me start off by saying you are basing this entire opinion of my entire time as the lore developer off of one incident that lasted two days, max.

 

Changes haven't been detailed, at least publicly. Players' characters are being singled out and when they disagree they're basically told to shove it. Feedback has been disregarded, dismissed and ignored.

 

I recall no instances in which I have ever blatantly mocked someone for having a differing opinion, nor do I recall any feedback that has been disregarded, dismissed, or ignored. If I have, it would be very kind of you to direct me to such.

 

For example, lowering synthetics' emotional capacities (in fact, entirely demolishing it in some cases)

 

I have not made any changes to the emotional capacity of synthetics, officially or non officially. What I've been reinforcing lately is what synthetics should have always behaved as. A recent mechanical addition helps to reflect this.

 

... as well as redacting multiple characters' backstories (not even publicly, mind you, so others know if their characters are affected)

 

Any redaction of character backstories was the choice of the player. My changes would only affect you if your character violated them, such as the operation added to allow cyborgification.

 

There also seems to be at least a mild aversion to scientific plausibility, though this is strange as I've seen you talk about other technological things in-depth with Lohikar, i.e. data storage methods.

 

In this one issue, you have assumed an opinion I have, made out of context. In the context of the discussion we were having about how to perform a complex brain operation using simple tools, I denied the application of any additional tools to the situation because it was undesirable to add any new content to the game that only has one use. I never claimed brain surgery was simple, or easy. I only claimed that it would be easier to achieve 400 years in the future.

I also recall the conversations we had with lohikar and nursie, and I did forget the contents and outcome of one (but not the topic), I did not neglect any other information given to me. I am also not sure what my completely meaningless and designed-to-be-poetic title has anything to do with anything. And I am not sure where I am lacking consideration of the opinions of players, either.

I am deeply sorry if you're dissatisfied with my choices in this position. I do wish you find something you like in my future developments.

[CakeIsOssim]

I guess i'll start here, i've found myself in an extremely unique position compared to most other Synthetic players, because i've actually benefitted massively on the Character front from the recent addition to Positronic Brains. It gave me a way to explain how my character is the way they are, in a completely grounded in the Lore way. In the end it started to feel like I was actually playing a character in the story, as opposed to something I just made up on the spot. It made them feel Real. I understand we don't need 'Realism', but sensifying things to a basic level is Not realism. My question here is; What do you see yourself doing with that page and on that subject in general?

 

First off, let me apologize for my delayed response. I had been meaning to return to this topic to answer your questions, as I had been pinged several times regarding other items of this topic.

I mentioned in the lore chat that I was not sure what I was going to do with the page on positronic brains yet, but I do have the intention of coming to it and sprucing it up a bit. This may not even include the removal of anything, though I am unsure how I feel about positronic brains having literal "modules" that can be interchanged. I am of the opinion that any emotional experience should be inherent to the positronic brain, not a piece of specific hardware.

Additionally, being of robotic nature does not mean you can't have opinions, or prefer one thought over the other. I do, indeed, believe it is unfair to see something that lacks personality and assume that it should be forced not to express itself in a different way. Edit: I should clarify here that I am still referring to androids, not to robots.

How do you see yourself expanding Synthetic Lore in the future?

Synthetics will always grow and advance in one form or another. Expect development regarding the synthetic colony, the ethics regarding synthetic emancipation, and the morality war between biologicals and synthetics.

Do you intend to fix any of the consistency holes currently in the Lore? (There are a lot)

There are many issues I wish to fix with synthetic lore. Examples are the notable synthetics and descriptions of each type of synthetic.

What will you do regarding Robotic Synthetics?

Much change to robots is not likely, because they are relatively simple. However, they will still receive their own place on the wiki, next to the cyborgs and androids. Each sub type fills a role. Robots are certainly cheaper than androids, but are not nearly as complex, though they may be capable of performing similar tasks. If something does not require an intelligent machine, an intelligent machine will not be selected.

What is your stance on Lore Canonisation applications, do you have one?

I always like to not be the only one brainstorming cool things. I am unfortunately unable to change the setting at large, so do remember that your application must fit into it. I would be excited to read any ideas you have, though.