Make it easier to know if the AI is watching you.

[Chada1]

I had an idea awhile ago, I never thought to suggest it, but with a recent AI related suggestion, I thought maybe now would be a good time. As it stands, there isn't really any actual way to know if you're being observed or not, minus when they use a holopad. There are Monitors that will broadcast messages and show an image that can be selected, and I think it's simple. I had the idea to make it only show the selected image when the AI's eye is in the specific APC-Area that the Monitor is connected to.

I think this would add a lot of immersion to the game if implemented like this, and it would only hinder the AI in public areas, since no 'Secure' areas have these Monitors. I think it would be really cool if it were possible. It would also make it easier for group Antagonists to plan their gimmicks without being observed unknowingly, but it's not like it makes it impossible to find them out; it doesn't do anything to intercomms, just the monitors.

I'm gonna be honest, this was such an obvious feature, or so I thooought... I kinda already had assumed it was a feature...

[JKJudgeX]

I've asked for this feature in the past. My suggestion was that the camera glows or makes a sound or stops moving or something like that.

I really think this idea would help things, but, often by the time the AI looks in, it's too late (if he's just lolcycling cameras and stopping when he sees two crewmembers within a tile of each other, he's going to eventually find something). It would still greatly help in situations where you are about to do something and then suddenly the AI looks in and you know about it.

I'd also like the ability to "soft-disable" a camera, in other words, a certain combination of wire clipping, or an easily obtainable device (maybe even just some extra wires) to "attach" to the wires inside the camera that cause it to "loop" - by that I mean, mechanically, it just shows the hallway as a static image, so the AI and people watching security cams just see an empty part of the hallway or room or whatever when they switch to the camera, but they get no notification that the tampering has been done... if that makes any sense.

About half the time I disable a camera, an engineering borg and a detective/security show up to investigate, even if I didn't trip the alarm.

[Azande]

If you cut a camera properly, it will not set off an alarm, there is an alarm wire you must cut first.

[AWPen]

What if they are flicking through cameras constantly? All you would hear is an aids noise or really annoying flashing

[Chada1]

What if they are flicking through cameras constantly? All you would hear is an aids noise or really annoying flashing

 

With my suggestion, that isn't what would happen. The screens already swap every 3 seconds between the announcement/image. This would just make it stay on the announcement unless the AI was observing the area that the Monitor is hooked to.

 

I've asked for this feature in the past. My suggestion was that the camera glows or makes a sound or stops moving or something like that.

I really think this idea would help things, but, often by the time the AI looks in, it's too late (if he's just lolcycling cameras and stopping when he sees two crewmembers within a tile of each other, he's going to eventually find something). It would still greatly help in situations where you are about to do something and then suddenly the AI looks in and you know about it.

I'd also like the ability to "soft-disable" a camera, in other words, a certain combination of wire clipping, or an easily obtainable device (maybe even just some extra wires) to "attach" to the wires inside the camera that cause it to "loop" - by that I mean, mechanically, it just shows the hallway as a static image, so the AI and people watching security cams just see an empty part of the hallway or room or whatever when they switch to the camera, but they get no notification that the tampering has been done... if that makes any sense.

 

I remember your suggestion, I commented in it that it would be cool, but to be careful about nerfing the AI too arbitrarily. I think my idea is a non-arbitrary change, it's actually pretty cool and fits. I'm just not sure how easy it would be to code. If your idea is liked, it would make it easier too, but the issue is that would make it impossible to not know the AI was watching you, that isn't the intention of this suggestion, the intention of this suggestion is just to make it easier to tell, not impossible for the AI to snoop even a little.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

Not sure how easy it would be, but having the camera glow with a yellow light and a soft mechanical clicking sound where the AIeye is closest to a security camera would be a pretty cool feature.

Malfs can get an upgrade that allows them to circumvent this, I suppose.

[Arrow768]

My reason against this is the same as last time.

Show me a single security camera that "glows" when someone is observing it.

The entire point of security cameras is to act as a deterrent against any activity that is deemed unacceptable by authorities.

There are many ways to avoid being spotted by the AI:

• Use maint. There are not cameras in maint and we have a very large maint area on the new station.
  
• Cut the cameras without setting of the alarm. This is already possible.
  

 

Last time the idea was brought up to add a traitor item that allows you to see if the AI is monitoring you.

[Chada1]

My reason against this is the same as last time.

Show me a single security camera that "glows" when someone is observing it.

The entire point of security cameras is to act as a deterrent against any activity that is deemed unacceptable by authorities.

There are many ways to avoid being spotted by the AI:

• Use maint. There are not cameras in maint and we have a very large maint area on the new station.
  
• Cut the cameras without setting of the alarm. This is already possible.
  

 

Last time the idea was brought up to add a traitor item that allows you to see if the AI is monitoring you.

Well, hang on. I'm not really advocating for glowing cameras. That would make it impossible for the AI to do anything without being known.

I would prefer something more subtle that would still allow the AI to snoop around. Cameras just outright starting to glow wouldn't do that; People would see the Camera was glowing and stop doing anything, even when they're not breaking regulations or committing a crime.

The original suggestion was not for Camera changes, it was just a minor change to how the AI Display monitors work to reflect when the AI was in the area or not, it's really not that huge of a balance flux and it wouldn't even effect every area. I'd think these monitors would only be in extremely public areas like Escape, Arrivals, and one or two strewn across hallways. They wouldn't be everywhere and definitely not in secure areas...

It would just be a neat little functionality change (If it weren't too snowflake to code) that would add a lot of immersion to the monitors, and make the set images actually make sense, seeing as the images are all stuff like smiley faces and observing eyes.

This isn't a very wide reaching 'nerf', it's just an alteration at best, but it's completely sensical, this almost seems like what those monitors were meant to imply with these images to begin with, but it just seems like noone thought to do it this way.

It's just an idea and not really a demand for AI nerfs, and it's not really much of a nerf to begin with, if people know the AI eye is observing them in Escape. Alternatively, this sorta thing could just be incorporated into the 'AI Display' if it's done at all, which, I may have gotten confused with the Status Display.

Honestly, if this were implemented it would be better utilised as a new function of the AI Display. Literally all i've wanted with this suggestion is for the AI Display to be off when the AI is not looking, and for it to be on when it is. It's a very immersive and sensical detail. As it stands, it just replays the same face/eye/image over and over again to no end. What is the point? Are they just there to use up Station power? They don't even do anything. This would change that.

[Bygonehero]

My reason against this is the same as last time.

Show me a single security camera that "glows" when someone is observing it.

The entire point of security cameras is to act as a deterrent against any activity that is deemed unacceptable by authorities.

There are many ways to avoid being spotted by the AI:

• Use maint. There are not cameras in maint and we have a very large maint area on the new station.
  
• Cut the cameras without setting of the alarm. This is already possible.
  

 

Last time the idea was brought up to add a traitor item that allows you to see if the AI is monitoring you.

Well, hang on. I'm not really advocating for glowing cameras. That would make it impossible for the AI to do anything without being known.

I would prefer something more subtle that would still allow the AI to snoop around. Cameras just outright starting to glow wouldn't do that; People would see the Camera was glowing and stop doing anything, even when they're not breaking regulations or committing a crime.

The original suggestion was not for Camera changes, it was just a minor change to how the AI Display monitors work to reflect when the AI was in the area or not, it's really not that huge of a balance flux and it wouldn't even effect every area. I'd think these monitors would only be in extremely public areas like Escape, Arrivals, and one or two strewn across hallways. They wouldn't be everywhere and definitely not in secure areas...

It would just be a neat little functionality change (If it weren't too snowflake to code) that would add a lot of immersion to the monitors, and make the set images actually make sense, seeing as the images are all stuff like smiley faces and observing eyes.

This isn't a very wide reaching 'nerf', it's just an alteration at best, but it's completely sensical, this almost seems like what those monitors were meant to imply with these images to begin with, but it just seems like noone thought to do it this way.

It's just an idea and not really a demand for AI nerfs, and it's not really much of a nerf to begin with, if people know the AI eye is observing them in Escape. Alternatively, this sorta thing could just be incorporated into the 'AI Display' if it's done at all, which, I may have gotten confused with the Status Display.

Honestly, if this were implemented it would be better utilised as a new function of the AI Display. Literally all i've wanted with this suggestion is for the AI Display to be off when the AI is not looking, and for it to be on when it is. It's a very immersive and sensical detail. As it stands, it just replays the same face/eye/image over and over again to no end. What is the point? Are they just there to use up Station power? They don't even do anything. This would change that.

 

Implementing a feature that only affects 20% of the station seems like a waste of time. Also I can think of two ways with current mechanics to counter this. You don't need mechanics to fix this issue, you need the right administrators and server culture. Almost every round in the first 10 or 20 minutes I can identify antagonists, but too often people forget that the AI's job isn't to find antagonists, but to serve the crew. It is expected that the AI give some leeway to traitors, the benefit of the doubt in other words, unless they were told to look and stop antagonists in the first place.

Just a few days ago, a Research Director was implanting bombs into the chests of several crewmembers. I had photographic, audio and visual evidence that they were doing this as AI, but I still gave them the benefit of the doubt and questioned them on their activities. They claimed to be attempting to remove the bomb, which is something I couldn't prove. AI's should always assume that the crew are telling it the truth in my opinion and should only act in the interests of security without orders if they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone is up to no good.

[Chada1]

Implementing a feature that only affects 20% of the station seems like a waste of time. Also I can think of two ways with current mechanics to counter this. You don't need mechanics to fix this issue, you need the right administrators and server culture. Almost every round in the first 10 or 20 minutes I can identify antagonists, but too often people forget that the AI's job isn't to find antagonists, but to serve the crew. It is expected that the AI give some leeway to traitors, the benefit of the doubt in other words, unless they were told to look and stop antagonists in the first place.

Just a few days ago, a Research Director was implanting bombs into the chests of several crewmembers. I had photographic, audio and visual evidence that they were doing this as AI, but I still gave them the benefit of the doubt and questioned them on their activities. They claimed to be attempting to remove the bomb, which is something I couldn't prove. AI's should always assume that the crew are telling it the truth in my opinion and should only act in the interests of security without orders if they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone is up to no good.

 

The problem in your logic here is that not every feature needs to completely destroy game balance, people assuming it does is why there are no 'good' solutions to this kind of thing. This isn't meant to make the AI unable to snoop or observe people, only to add minor cues that they are observing. A 'Change that only effects 20% of the Station' is literally a quarter of the game. 20% is a lot. An AI Display in public areas, or a new functionality to Status Displays, would really alleviate this problem without completely gimping the AI, while also adding an immersive feature to the game, which is the intention. Imagine calling an AI via holopad, suddenly the AI display on the wall lights up with an observing eye while the Hologram springs to life, <= That is this feature. In otherwords this would make AI Displays and other junk actually have a REASON to be haunting, as opposed to just sitting there looping the same image over and over again for no reason. With this change they would only be activated if the AI was observing the area.

The issue here is you're trying to turn an IC issue into an OOC issue, that is what i'm trying to avoid. This isn't always an OOC issue (Though In some cases it is an Administrative issue, but this solution won't stop that anyway, only admins will). What is actually needed are extremely minor visual cues that can show that the AI is in the area/watching depending on the area without absolutely, 100%, giving it away. Then there are some areas it should be able to view without being known, Secure areas. An AI DIsplay/Status Display would not be there. Why would it?

[Bygonehero]

The problem in your logic here is that not every feature needs to completely destroy game balance, people assuming it does is why there are no 'good' solutions to this kind of thing. This isn't meant to make the AI unable to snoop or observe people, only to add minor cues that they are observing. A 'Change that only effects 20% of the Station' is literally a quarter of the game. 20% is a lot. An AI Display in public areas, or a new functionality to Status Displays, would really alleviate this problem without completely gimping the AI, while also adding an immersive feature to the game, which is the intention. Imagine calling an AI via holopad, suddenly the AI display on the wall lights up with an observing eye while the Hologram springs to life, <= That is this feature. In otherwords this would make AI Displays and other junk actually have a REASON to be haunting, as opposed to just sitting there looping the same image over and over again for no reason. With this change they would only be activated if the AI was observing the area.

The issue here is you're trying to turn an IC issue into an OOC issue, that is what i'm trying to avoid. This isn't always an OOC issue (Though In some cases it is an Administrative issue, but this solution won't stop that anyway, only admins will). What is actually needed are extremely minor visual cues that can show that the AI is in the area/watching depending on the area without absolutely, 100%, giving it away. Then there are some areas it should be able to view without being known, Secure areas. An AI DIsplay/Status Display would not be there. Why would it?

 

I had an idea awhile ago, I never thought to suggest it, but with a recent AI related suggestion, I thought maybe now would be a good time. As it stands, there isn't really any actual way to know if you're being observed or not, minus when they use a holopad. There are Monitors that will broadcast messages and show an image that can be selected, and I think it's simple. I had the idea to make it only show the selected image when the AI's eye is in the specific APC-Area that the Monitor is connected to.

I think this would add a lot of immersion to the game if implemented like this, and it would only hinder the AI in public areas, since no 'Secure' areas have these Monitors. I think it would be really cool if it were possible. It would also make it easier for group Antagonists to plan their gimmicks without being observed unknowingly, but it's not like it makes it impossible to find them out; it doesn't do anything to intercomms, just the monitors.

I'm gonna be honest, this was such an obvious feature, or so I thooought... I kinda already had assumed it was a feature...

 

But you are trying to change the game balance, I don't really see how having a monitor helps in immersion when a fully bodied hologram is available. Making it easier for traitors to identify if they are being observed in public areas full of people with potential victims is definitely changing the balance of the game.

Furthermore, AI code is a mess as it is, it's going to be reworked eventually, but the features added/removed from it will probably be set in stone well in advance. When I say a feature that affects only 20% of the station, I meant in relation to all other features. Compared to bugfixes and z-level integration this feature isn't important, and is a waste of time for now.

It would be much simpler to have a traitor item that tells you if the AI is watching you.

[Chada1]

The problem in your logic here is that not every feature needs to completely destroy game balance, people assuming it does is why there are no 'good' solutions to this kind of thing. This isn't meant to make the AI unable to snoop or observe people, only to add minor cues that they are observing. A 'Change that only effects 20% of the Station' is literally a quarter of the game. 20% is a lot. An AI Display in public areas, or a new functionality to Status Displays, would really alleviate this problem without completely gimping the AI, while also adding an immersive feature to the game, which is the intention. Imagine calling an AI via holopad, suddenly the AI display on the wall lights up with an observing eye while the Hologram springs to life, <= That is this feature. In otherwords this would make AI Displays and other junk actually have a REASON to be haunting, as opposed to just sitting there looping the same image over and over again for no reason. With this change they would only be activated if the AI was observing the area.

The issue here is you're trying to turn an IC issue into an OOC issue, that is what i'm trying to avoid. This isn't always an OOC issue (Though In some cases it is an Administrative issue, but this solution won't stop that anyway, only admins will). What is actually needed are extremely minor visual cues that can show that the AI is in the area/watching depending on the area without absolutely, 100%, giving it away. Then there are some areas it should be able to view without being known, Secure areas. An AI DIsplay/Status Display would not be there. Why would it?

 

I had an idea awhile ago, I never thought to suggest it, but with a recent AI related suggestion, I thought maybe now would be a good time. As it stands, there isn't really any actual way to know if you're being observed or not, minus when they use a holopad. There are Monitors that will broadcast messages and show an image that can be selected, and I think it's simple. I had the idea to make it only show the selected image when the AI's eye is in the specific APC-Area that the Monitor is connected to.

I think this would add a lot of immersion to the game if implemented like this, and it would only hinder the AI in public areas, since no 'Secure' areas have these Monitors. I think it would be really cool if it were possible. It would also make it easier for group Antagonists to plan their gimmicks without being observed unknowingly, but it's not like it makes it impossible to find them out; it doesn't do anything to intercomms, just the monitors.

I'm gonna be honest, this was such an obvious feature, or so I thooought... I kinda already had assumed it was a feature...

 

But you are trying to change the game balance, I don't really see how having a monitor helps in immersion when a fully bodied hologram is available. Making it easier for traitors to identify if they are being observed in public areas full of people with potential victims is definitely changing the balance of the game.

Furthermore, AI code is a mess as it is, it's going to be reworked eventually, but the features added/removed from it will probably be set in stone well in advance. When I say a feature that affects only 20% of the station, I meant in relation to all other features. Compared to bugfixes and z-level integration this feature isn't important, and is a waste of time for now.

It would be much simpler to have a traitor item that tells you if the AI is watching you.

Not all Antagonists are Traitors, and 'Traitor' items aren't publicly accessable, that is the problem. The biggest victims of how it all works at the moment aren't Traitors, it's the Crew-Antag who doesn't get an uplink. And i'm not changing the focus of my argument, i'm saying your version will completely change how you play an AI, mine will just make the already added 'AI DIsplay' have a function. It already exists and it does nothing except show an image, what is it displaying? it's definitely not the AI, it's just an image. So, why is it called an AI Display? What does it do? This addresses that and is all I wanted.

This is a solution that won't gimp the AI nor make it absolutely impossible for the AI to observe Crew in secret, especially in their workplaces, where an AI Display would never be. it will only make it easier for people to know they're being watched in Public area, this will also give Antagonists a little room to worm around if they're smart, It's a little absurd that the only option for 'Privacy' is to 'Cut the Cameras', assuming they're grouping for a briefing/chat/etc. This makes it a lot easier to roleplay out your gimmick, without being completely and utterly ratted out by the AI, which is completely within its Laws at a certain level.

To put it blunt, it's the difference between a Secure area and a non-Secure area. Secure areas are given higher protection, non-Secure are given less. It's completely sensical and it honestly feels like something in this form should already exist. It could go even deeper and have it disabled as soon as Suit Sensors are mandatory if it was wanted.

[Bygonehero]

The AI display is directly tied to the AI health stat. If the AI is EMPed it will show confusion, if it is fully healed or undamaged it will have neutral. If it is dead it will have a BOSD. If no AI exists then it will be blank. Everything else is flavor. Some people know this, and I have used it to fake my own death or pretend to not be there many times.

[Arrow768]

A AI detector that can be acquired via the uplink is planned.

Moving this to projects

[Chada1]

I'd say archive this too, I doubt Arrow is still working on this from 2017. Not sure which forum

Edited October 28, 2020 by Chada1