Make guns require a Firing pin.

[Scheveningen]

Surely Rambo McSci is an ahelp issue? I like the idea of the pins from an RP point of view as it encourages interaction.

 

A lot of things are ahelp issues. though mechanics generally preventing such behaiviour are better in the long run, less work for the 'mins, and not all things get ahelped.

 

Can't argue with that. Someone who wants to test guns legitimately will take the 5 minutes required to type out a simple conversation for why they need firing pins from cargo.

[JKJudgeX]

Surely Rambo McSci is an ahelp issue? I like the idea of the pins from an RP point of view as it encourages interaction.

 

A lot of things are ahelp issues. though mechanics generally preventing such behaiviour are better in the long run, less work for the 'mins, and not all things get ahelped.

 

Can't argue with that. Someone who wants to test guns legitimately will take the 5 minutes required to type out a simple conversation for why they need firing pins from cargo.

 

And cargo will take the 0 seconds it requires to not bother with ordering the firing pins, running the request up the command chain to see it denied, or flat out deny it themselves, as they do when random crew comes by and asks for insulated gloves/etc... leaving legit scientist with less to do than they had before, making this proposed change not only unnecessary, but prohibitive.

Current steps to making a worthwhile gun:

1) repeat already repetitive research chain for the 500th time you've played

2) Stop. You need materials. Contact cargo. Wait. Maybe the whole round. Maybe 20-30 minutes. Maybe an hour. Good luck finding something else cool to do, since xenobio and xenoarch require special access, and chemistry and telescience are of very limited science use and are probably already being used by the other 1-2 scientists who had nothing to do while you occupied the R&D lab.

3) Oh my. A bored miner decided to be cool and bring you a thing or two. Now you can make more interesting station-stuff, including some guns that might be fun to test on monkeys, or, assist your antaggery, or provide help to a dwindling security force/etc. You got lucky, kid.

Let's just go ahead and throw in step 2.5 for no reason) Ask cargo for firing pins and enjoy what I said above stopping you from reaching step 3. Also, now you're kinda suspect, so, if you WERE an antag, that AI is DEFINITELY watching you now, better be super duper extra careful times 3 because that's "fun".

Just saying. Adding a point of failure (which is what this is) to someone's normal job RP or antag-gimmick, when it's really not currently a big problem is pretty questionable.

I would get it if every couple of rounds a laser cannon found its way out of science and was put to devastating, unstoppable use, but to be honest the times that stuff like that happens tend to be the more interesting SS13 rounds.

I'd be willing to hear out a nerf to the availability of force gloves, mechs, borg access, and grenade-enabling chems long before dicking about with the rest of R&D.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

[Pacmandevil]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

 

....despite this barely affecting antags. Any resourceful antag's not going to go up to cargo to ask for firing pins. there'd be several ways of getting them.

Regardless - I think that the general oppinion expressed here is negative.

[Ezuo]

I think I'm going to give this a +1, for many of the +1 reasons above.

1) If you're resourceful, this wont impact you as an antag. Hell, it might make your job easier as it'll be harder for non-sec to secure their valids, and stealing the armory's pins would cripple sec.

2) Non-antag scientists don't really have a good reason to be running around with a bunch of guns fresh off the prolathe, and will help hinder doomsday prepping behavior.

3) I like me my sub-systems and modular items. Already I can see the opportunity for 4 types of pins. Unlocked, Area locked, Alert locked, and ID locked. Perhaps it is adding depth for depth's sake, but its certainly adding something.

4) This won't hurt revs all that much, as the mighty Cargonia shall remain strong. Call forth the holy shuttle, and let the boon of firing pins be unleashed upon the masses.

[DatBerry]

Stuff

 

Getting firing pins is important to your job, cargo denying your crate would be akin to them denying a virus crate to the virologist, and you can press neglect of duty charges and IRs.

Traitors will probably get pins in the upload, maybe even syndicate ones that only traitors can shoot.

If you're any other antag just pretend to be doing your job? Unless you mean breaking into RnD to print guns, in that case unless you're a ling or a traitor you don't magically learn how to use the protolathe.

[JKJudgeX]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

 

This should be enough to shut this idea down completely for anyone with a truly deep understanding of the game, in my opinion.

[Scheveningen]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

 

This should be enough to shut this idea down completely for anyone with a truly deep understanding of the game, in my opinion.

 

Resolution: 1 TC firing pin that only fires when in the hands of antagonists, explodes in anyone else's hands.

Could also give head revs uplinks with a smaller amount of TC, around 5-10, to purchase antag pins with.

Lings and vamps may be out of luck but they have access to different things that make them more powerful anyway.

[JKJudgeX]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

 

This should be enough to shut this idea down completely for anyone with a truly deep understanding of the game, in my opinion.

 

Resolution: 1 TC firing pin that only fires when in the hands of antagonists, explodes in anyone else's hands.

Could also give head revs uplinks with a smaller amount of TC, around 5-10, to purchase antag pins with.

Lings and vamps may be out of luck but they have access to different things that make them more powerful anyway.

 

Seems like a lot of unnecessary acrobatics to implement a feature that no one who actually plays R&D wants anything to do with, but yes.

I dunno. I get the sense that people that support this idea really do NOT play R&D very often and don't have a grasp of how dry the job becomes when you don't get materials from cargo, and how this would just add another layer of boredom and BS to further make the job suck.

Put it this way. Take a job that you do, let's say ... you're a surgeon... and then out of the blue I come along with some SUPER THIN reasoning and go, ya know what, the ORs shouldn't start with a circular saw. I saw a guy kill some folks with a circular saw back in 2015, and one of them was a security officer, and I still find it upsetting to this day. Circular saws don't work until you get the blade for them ordered up from cargo. Now, pretend like half the time someone orders the circular saws, it turns out they had nefarious intentions with them and people end up dead. Good luck getting your circular saws. This is not fun. This just makes your job more lame and adds more points of failure to you getting to do what you wanted/needed to do.

How about to unlock the armory, the Warden has to order Armory Keys from cargo?

How about to activate a new borg, an MMI activator chip must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to activate the Tesla, a Tesla activation switch must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to open the toxins lab, toxin lab keys must be ordered from cargo?

We can interject cargo into anyone's work process aboard. Try playing a few rounds as R&D and come back and tell me if you want to start putting a "mess with cargo" step right in the middle of your already probably hurried round.

I just don't see the point, things have been fine this way for years.

[Kaed]

Seems like a lot of unnecessary acrobatics to implement a feature that no one who actually plays R&D wants anything to do with, but yes.

I dunno. I get the sense that people that support this idea really do NOT play R&D very often and don't have a grasp of how dry the job becomes when you don't get materials from cargo, and how this would just add another layer of boredom and BS to further make the job suck.

Put it this way. Take a job that you do, let's say ... you're a surgeon... and then out of the blue I come along with some SUPER THIN reasoning and go, ya know what, the ORs shouldn't start with a circular saw. I saw a guy kill some folks with a circular saw back in 2015, and one of them was a security officer, and I still find it upsetting to this day. Circular saws don't work until you get the blade for them ordered up from cargo. Now, pretend like half the time someone orders the circular saws, it turns out they had nefarious intentions with them and people end up dead. Good luck getting your circular saws. This is not fun. This just makes your job more lame and adds more points of failure to you getting to do what you wanted/needed to do.

How about to unlock the armory, the Warden has to order Armory Keys from cargo?

How about to activate a new borg, an MMI activator chip must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to activate the Tesla, a Tesla activation switch must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to open the toxins lab, toxin lab keys must be ordered from cargo?

We can interject cargo into anyone's work process aboard. Try playing a few rounds as R&D and come back and tell me if you want to start putting a "mess with cargo" step right in the middle of your already probably hurried round.

I just don't see the point, things have been fine this way for years.

 

Don't forget to make command order the Card Swiper battery pack so they can activate the swiper machines, allowing them to call an ERT. Gotta order one for each swiper machine!

Because I heard ERT suck and make it hard for invader type antags to get anywhere.

(but yeah, this is pretty dumb put into this context)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You can't just slap an unnecessary hurdle to a weapon then slap a cost of TC to it. That's dumb. We only have so many TC and you're making guns cots more, limiting our ability to get other equipment. I thought this was meant only to prevent abuse from science? This suggestion has exploded to locking every single gun behind a firing pin. That is an awful idea.

This idea breaks down when you apply this reasoning to other weapons. The post above posted it first, so I'll just echo that - imagine that you need to go to cargo to get a key that unlocks a lock on the circular saw that lets its blade spin. Wouldn't an energy sword also need a key to unlock its lethal potential? What about knives and butterfly knives that ANYONE can make with metal or plasteel? Should cultists' offensive runes have occult pins?

RnD already needs to ask nicely to get the resources from cargo to function. WHAT does "meaningful interaction" even mean here? My most memorable interactions with characters are hardly when they come up to my desk and ask for something.

This is wanting to mechanically automate moderation and administration and harm antagonists and make science more of a pain in the ass. I've been blasted away by railguns and other RnD weapons as security and I've seen it happen before - RnD are a force to be reckoned with. On the same token, non-traitors have their own armory and can also call on a mercenary squad brimming with heavy weapons and top-of-the-line armor called ERT, as well as dedicated combat droids.

The only weapon in the entire game that I would ever argue needs a firing pin is the 1-shot-1-kill bee-gun.

[sonicgotnuked]

>all guns not having a firing pin.

A good thing would be to actually be able to remove it but all guns will have it installed straight off the line.

Same with cool ones like a DNA lock that traitors could get.

[Scheveningen]

You can't just slap an unnecessary hurdle to a weapon then slap a cost of TC to it. That's dumb. We only have so many TC and you're making guns cots more, limiting our ability to get other equipment. I thought this was meant only to prevent abuse from science? This suggestion has exploded to locking every single gun behind a firing pin. That is an awful idea.

 

It's 1 TC. Force gloves are 8 TC. Energy swords are 12. Revolvers are either 12 or 14. AEGs are arguably more cost-effective than revolvers, even though revolvers can three-shot kill someone if all bullets hit and armor doesn't partially block it. Force gloves add complete and utter close-quarters dominance. Energy swords are incredibly strong in their own right, blocking both melee attacks and ranged attacks, slicing open walls and etc. But the AEG has infinite ammunition. The quad-laser acts like a revolver in close quarters and hits incredibly hard. The x-ray gun is scary due to its rapid rate of fire. Stun revolvers are cheap, have 10 shots and hit harder than tasers do. 1 TC for a single syndie firing pin for any gun you produce certainly isn't unfair, it still allows you to purchase a pair of force gloves and an e-sword, or the gloves and a revolver. Or pretty much anything else.

 

This idea breaks down when you apply this reasoning to other weapons. The post above posted it first, so I'll just echo that - imagine that you need to go to cargo to get a key that unlocks a lock on the circular saw that lets its blade spin. Wouldn't an energy sword also need a key to unlock its lethal potential? What about knives and butterfly knives that ANYONE can make with metal or plasteel? Should cultists' offensive runes have occult pins?

 

Yes, because you are applying the same logic to a completely different subject, and presuming an outcome without having precedent or proof to even assume it. We're not talking about butterfly knives here, we're talking about guns produced from Research and Development only. The OOC intention is solely to stop situations where non-antagonist researchers crack out weaponry to self-antagonize or validhunt with. With the solution I offered to make this suggestion work, 1 TC is cost effective enough to make printing off the AEG or a railgun worth it. Mining is so easy right now that you can get resources 20-30 minutes into the round when three miners are working, which they normally are, this used to be an issue with R&D before. 12 TC for a revolver is actually ridiculously expensive even for its power. 1 TC + in-round requirements for the resources to even build an AEG is enough for an antagonist. They can spend the remaining 24 TC on a pair of force gloves and an energy sword if they so wanted to.

 

RnD already needs to ask nicely to get the resources from cargo to function. WHAT does "meaningful interaction" even mean here? My most memorable interactions with characters are hardly when they come up to my desk and ask for something.

 

I assume "meaningful interaction" refers to "roleplaying" here.

 

This is wanting to mechanically automate moderation and administration and harm antagonists and make science more of a pain in the ass. I've been blasted away by railguns and other RnD weapons as security and I've seen it happen before - RnD are a force to be reckoned with. On the same token, non-traitors have their own armory and can also call on a mercenary squad brimming with heavy weapons and top-of-the-line armor called ERT, as well as dedicated combat droids.

 

The assumption that because you add a hurdle that is intended to make it harder for non-antagonists to get prototype guns from R&D, it somehow also makes it harder for antagonists to get the same gun even with the provided solution that a very cheap 1 TC firing pin from an uplink that explodes like a lawgiver if a non-antag dares to use it on you, is a rather dubious assumption. The point is that it is far too easy for R&D to print off guns. Even security has to get over the hurdle of persuading cargo to order heavier guns for a combat emergency. Why should R&D be the exception to that rule, especially considering how none of the prototype guns from R&D hold the risk of malfunction? It's too much reward for so little cost, AEGs are not hard to mass-produce.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Why aren't you banning scientists that aren't antags who crack open the gun safe, then? How does this stop them when they just GET the firing pins? How do you metagame when you should deny RnD's request for firing pins if it's non-antags you're trying to stop?

RnD isn't an exception to the rule of needing permission to print out guns and hand them out. Do you know who they should ask before printing and handing out guns? The RD/Captain/Security. Do you know who else can stop them if there is no RD/Captain/Security to tell them to stop? Moderation.

This is from the perspective a non-science regular. I don't play science because it's the most boring, byzantine, red-tape filled department that I reflexively close Byond and play something else if I ever spawn in it. I feel bad for scientists who play the role and have to sit around and wait/beg for resources and with this it would have them also beg for firing pins to do one of the only things their department can do. This would do nothing to improve the dire hole non-robotics RnD is stuck in.

Bad idea, not convinced, -1

[Scheveningen]

Why aren't you banning scientists that aren't antags who crack open the gun safe, then?

 

What gun safe?

 

How does this stop them when they just GET the firing pins?

 

It doesn't after that point, but it already adds accountability because cargo among other people become aware of R&D requesting firing pins for the imminent batch of weapons they are bound to produce. It allows for command to track what the intentions of the R&D department are based on what R&D is ordering from cargo, and in turn, inform security what to expect moving onward.

Versus the current status quo, where a scientist could stuff a bunch of guns into their bag whether antagonist or not, and go postal without anyone in-game seeing it coming, because of the lack of existing stopgaps.

 

RnD isn't an exception to the rule of needing permission to print out guns and hand them out. Do you know who they should ask before printing and handing out guns? The RD/Captain/Security. Do you know who else can stop them if there is no RD/Captain/Security to tell them to stop? Moderation.

 

The staff team is largely reactive moderation, not proactive. We punish behavior after the fact when someone takes issue with it and reports it, or something in-game was bad enough that it warranted us stepping in without the need for a report. Firing pins add a stopgap to stall those who cannot be patient enough to wait for a cargo crate like everyone else has to for their own jobs.

 

Bad idea, not convinced, -1

 

Sorry to hear that.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It was a metaphor my dude..... The gun safe = the machine that prints out the guns....

[NoahKirchner]

I think this is a bad idea and I would instead highly advocate for a policy change revolving around weapons. For example that research weapons need paperwork to be able to be transported or they are contraband, because most of them are still experimental et cetera. A coded limitation on this only serves to make antag's lives more difficult for Revs and what-not since they don't have very many ways of getting weapons.

If you see a security-scientist, ahelp them my dudes.

[JKJudgeX]

I just haven't seen enough scientists self-antagging or validhunting with guns from the protolathe to warrant any kind of sweeping change to the entire system that they use for valid reasons when antags themselves or for interesting/fun research that generally doesn't leave the department.

I'd understand this if there was an epidemic of misbehavior, but, there's not. Hell, I've seen modified plants coming out of R&D more than anything else lately.

[Synnono]

I think this is a bad idea and I would instead highly advocate for a policy change revolving around weapons. For example that research weapons need paperwork to be able to be transported or they are contraband, because most of them are still experimental et cetera. A coded limitation on this only serves to make antag's lives more difficult for Revs and what-not since they don't have very many ways of getting weapons.

If you see a security-scientist, ahelp them my dudes.

 

We already have policy in place.

 

Scientific Experimentation And Use of Prototype Technology

This is a reminder that per Station Directive four, the works and derivatives of the Research department, including prototypes, xenobotanical samples, experimental subjects and all related materials are to remain within their respective labs and testing areas.

Unless given approval by Command Staff, the transport or use of these works and derivatives outside of the Research department is not permitted.

[NoahKirchner]

I think this is a bad idea and I would instead highly advocate for a policy change revolving around weapons. For example that research weapons need paperwork to be able to be transported or they are contraband, because most of them are still experimental et cetera. A coded limitation on this only serves to make antag's lives more difficult for Revs and what-not since they don't have very many ways of getting weapons.

If you see a security-scientist, ahelp them my dudes.

 

We already have policy in place.

 

Scientific Experimentation And Use of Prototype Technology

This is a reminder that per Station Directive four, the works and derivatives of the Research department, including prototypes, xenobotanical samples, experimental subjects and all related materials are to remain within their respective labs and testing areas.

Unless given approval by Command Staff, the transport or use of these works and derivatives outside of the Research department is not permitted.

 

Yes, but iirc the only place you can get that ingame is from a form machine so I'd assume the type of people to do this won't be concerned with policies like that. Might be good to put it directly into the corporate reg wiki under contraband just flat-out stated if it's as much of an issue as it's being portrayed as in this thread.

[Synnono]

Security should be aware of station directives already, and if they aren't, Command Staff are.

Happy to continue this discussion elsewhere, but it threatens to derail the OP's original suggestion which is technically against the forum rules.

[Pacmandevil]

Put it this way. Take a job that you do, let's say ... you're a surgeon... and then out of the blue I come along with some SUPER THIN reasoning and go, ya know what, the ORs shouldn't start with a circular saw. I saw a guy kill some folks with a circular saw back in 2015, and one of them was a security officer, and I still find it upsetting to this day. Circular saws don't work until you get the blade for them ordered up from cargo. Now, pretend like half the time someone orders the circular saws, it turns out they had nefarious intentions with them and people end up dead. Good luck getting your circular saws. This is not fun. This just makes your job more lame and adds more points of failure to you getting to do what you wanted/needed to do.

How about to unlock the armory, the Warden has to order Armory Keys from cargo?

How about to activate a new borg, an MMI activator chip must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to activate the Tesla, a Tesla activation switch must be ordered from cargo?

How about in order to open the toxins lab, toxin lab keys must be ordered from cargo?

We can interject cargo into anyone's work process aboard. Try playing a few rounds as R&D and come back and tell me if you want to start putting a "mess with cargo" step right in the middle of your already probably hurried round.

I just don't see the point, things have been fine this way for years.

 

....Except your examples are all things NEEDED for a specific job. The warden's job is to manage the brig and armory, the Roboticist's job is to handle borgs/borgings if the time comes from it.

R&D's job isn't to be a gun factory. it's to test shit. this doesn't remove, or even hamper the "testing shit" part of the job.

[Pacmandevil]

Should cultists' offensive runes have occult pins?

 

Alright, That's actually a neat idea for a pin, but that's beside the point.

This only applies to guns R&D *makes*, all other guns start off with pins.

and no - that doesn't mean you'll need a firing pin for the Floral gun, as it's on a per-case basis.

This doesn't Limit Science testing said weapons (Which they never do anyway), and in fact probably promotes that, by adding a firing range to the sublevel with testing firing pins.

if you have a Valid reason to produce guns for the station - cargo's an option, or asking the warden for the spare box of pins they'll have in the armory. - this likely covers every legitimate reason to produce guns in the game.

If you're doing some antagging, you can get them from the uplink, for starters. (And saying that it's too expensive is a meme, 25tc is a fucking huge amount of telecrystals at your disposal.)

For the non Uplink antags - you'll have to be more resourceful for guns - looking through maint - hacking various things on station - all of these will be able to Circumvent the firing pin Limitation if a robust spaceman were to put effort in.

This also Limits, (though sadly doesn't remove) the complete cheese of refilling the armory after an antag puts considerable effort into emptying it. There's really not a point to doing that as of now if the only result will be just having an excuse to fill sec up with infinite-power laser rifles for minimal effort asides from resources.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'll have to ask again. If you can order pins from cargo, or download them from your PDA as a traitor, what does this actually stop? What stops a self-antagging scientist from ordering a pin and using it? What allows the legitimate scientist working with the self-antagging scientist to use the weapons legitimately?

Because right now we have admins who do the job well enough.

[Saudus]

I just recently started in RnD and mostly played it on dead hours at first to learn. I got minerals from mining maybe ca 50% of the rounds, and then quite late in to the round and rarely all kinds or enough of them. This would have thrown another major hurdle in my path to learning the ropes of RnD. It's better during active hours.

Also, would this extend to Robotics? Because it is a lot easier to print out EXO-suit weapons (because material requirements) than RnD printing. Even the jury-rigged laser can be quite nice on a Ripley, which needs no real precious resource (5 plasteel sheets only for Ripley) and just a bit of tech. In this case, it would also be weird to have a firing pin since it's "jury-rigged". It also quite often taken me 30-60 min to get a bulk metal crate to Robotics. And that requires no command approval or anything. Imagine the time to get the firing pin crate... Now add that to a job which already spends all it's time in one room, using a few machines and waiting for mining.

Adding this hurdle would hinder new players learning RnD from accessing one of the most fun parts of it. Also it doesn't make super much sense to me (why wouldn't I just print the pin in the gun as well?). Doubt it is more complex than the "blabla-gun" I just researched the tech to get. And also doubt it requires fancy materials.

Most jobs can, in some way or another, totally fuck over a round if they truly try. Virology can unleash a plague. Xenobiology can unleash an army. Robotics can stomp in mechs. Chemistry can blow shit up and poison people. Xenobotany/hydroponics can probably also do crazy stuff (don't know them well enough). Sec can robust people and imprison then willy nilly. Medical can screw you over when you come in for treatment and/or destroy the cloner. Cargo can cut off important supplies etc. Hell even kitchen and bar can probably do something.

Yet people rarely do, because this is a great community and the admins seem on top of things when shit does happen. Don't need this addition and I'm sure the effort to implement this could be used somewhere else?