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[Resolved] TheDocOct - I'm challenging the warning.


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Posted

BYOND Key: jkjudgex

Staff BYOND Key: thedococt

Game ID: bQX-dicD

Reason for complaint: Faysal noticed that I was behaving strangely as AI, pretty sure because he caught me deleting personnel records from his laptop, but maybe for other reasons. He had made 1 or 2 comments about handling the AI, so, I wanted to go ahead and sting him. I shocked his doors, and when he began to complain that his doors were shocked, I sent a borg to silence him. As that wasn't likely going to work, I went ahead and shocked the doors on the way out of command to keep hurting him more.


I do not think this resulted in Faysal's death, but it did send him to the medbay.


I don't think I've ever been specifically warned by the AI that I was about to be shocked or otherwise interacted with. Thus far, my interaction with the crew had been as a normal AI, opening doors here and there, and doing my research. A couple of times people called for me and I responded, but they generally just wanted a door opened, or, after I said "yes?" or something, they said nothing else.


I only had one attached borg who came in around an hour or so into the round.


Evidence/logs/etc:

Here's the warning:

Followed the Head of Personnel around the station, shocking multiple doors he interacted with due to suggesting the AI has an ion law, as the AI. Did not make any attempt at communication with the HoP or command in general, breaking escalation rules. You're expected to interact with people before wordlessly attacking them, even as an antag AI.


Additional remarks:

I didn't follow him "Around the station". I shocked his doors, and went about my business. A few minutes later when he complained, I came back to finish the job, by shocking exactly 2 more doors - the doors to command. I had not yet been fully outed as bad at this time, so, I didn't want to engage in further verbal communication WHILE shocking him, so that the possibility that a rogue borg or other source of shocking was at fault.


I considered shocking his doors originally part of my "escalation", since it was in no way fatal, until he continued trying to push through more doors, giving me more opportunities to shock him (which is just not the most wise thing to do, to accuse the AI of being bad and then start opening doors after being shocked once - I've been killed dead this way many times, with no more conversation).


I was never made aware that escalation MUST include verbal communication with the victims beforehand, or telegraphing of one's role. Knowing that the station was easily prepared to shove an emitter up my butthole (which they eventually did), I opted to try to quietly remove one of the only three members of the crew who had taken notice of my actions - the one being the most verbal.


I'm not sure how this *should* have been played, because, admittedly, I don't play mALF much (I didn't even know I had it selected, and adminhelped to be removed at the beginning of the round to no answer, so I went ahead and played it - which was fun, up until I shocked one person without some kind of monologue.)


If this warning stands, the precedent that it sets is pretty heinous, as, it means we should be adminhelping each and every single time we are shocked without prior telegraphing from here on out, and we should expect that the player who shocked us be given a warning.


The initial shock was in no way fatal, so, it wasn't a gank, plenty of other paths were made available to Faysal to call for help and be properly let out of his office by someone with gloves, so, it wasn't even critical until he tried to escape and continued tattling on me for being malf.


EDIT: I also want to address thedococt's accusatory tone, his first AHelp to me was something along the lines of asking why I was going around the station "randomly shocking doors". This resulted in me having to explain the entire situation and why it was done, with no relenting or understanding by the mod. I targeted a crewmate who was in the know, did some hurting on him, and when he bolted, I hurt him really badly. Any dialogue from me at this point would have likely alerted everyone on command channel that I was malf, which, having only one borg, would not have been wise at that time.

Posted

I only commented to the RD over the ion annoucement, that anyone could hear, as well the the cmo said something about it. I asked if the RD was going to look into it, she did not reply and I did not even dwell more into the matter. Then, I walked outside of my office and returned later, and went outside again, to be shocked by an airlock. I tell engineering and head to medical. I come back to the bridge after the ce tells me it is fixed, I walk into a shocked door, go back, end touching other door and dying. I do not really recall telling anyone or hinting anything besides; we had an ion storm annoucement, that you could be hostile, because I had no clue in character of so.

Posted

You asked if someone was handling the AI, so, the malf AI attacked you. I'm pretty sure I've Ahelped being suddenly shocked with no warning many a time and gotten no indication that the activity was out of line for the malf to do whatsoever. You kept opening doors trying to leave command while my borg was en route to deal with you directly (and hopefully have some more direct RP-interaction with you beforehand). I don't know what I was expected to do here, but, I was 99% sure you knew I was malf because I thought you had watched me delete records on your laptop.


The comment that I saw from you didn't reference the ION laws directly, and was made seconds after I had been using your laptop and you walked right over to it. Also, the HoS and Captain had already reported on command radio that the AI seemed strange, before the ION laws were reported because I tinted their windows early in the round and had bolted a few doors to keep people from easily discovering hacked APCs. So, the ION event was not even something I could have really used as cover if I wanted to, for anyone that was paying close attention.


I targeted you first because you were isolated and seemed to know I was malf, and I escalated my attack after you had your door fixed and started to leave command (I wanted my borg to drag you deeper into command and finish you off, again, with more RP).


The misunderstanding here, I believe, came from the fact that the ION thing happened but was not the actual problem.


This all seems pretty much by-the-book AI play to me, with the exception that I suppose you were expecting me to play off my malfness based on those ION laws, which was not the route I chose.


Also, I didn't think you'd try to open both command airlocks, figuring you'd have become wise that they were shocked after the first one after your office had just been set to shock. So, I wasn't really trying to straight up kill you, unless you succeeded with your escape from my borg. Also, I'm pretty sure I bolted those command doors, too, so, from my perspective it shouldn't have even been possible for you to shock yourself on both, I guess the CE or a borg had unbolted them on the way in.


Are we saying that setting traps that kill people is against the rules because you can't really RP a trap to any meaningful depth before enabling it? As I've said, I've been killed this way many, many times as captain and RD and other jobs. I've adminhelped the AI even directly letting me into its chambers and then straight up lasering me with no indication at ALL that I knew it was borged and pretty much been told to go kick rocks, so... I really didn't think this was warning-level stuff here.

Posted

Apologies for the late response. I fully intended to post sooner, but it slipped away from me somehow.

 

I also want to address thedococt's accusatory tone, his first AHelp to me was something along the lines of asking why I was going around the station "randomly shocking doors". This resulted in me having to explain the entire situation and why it was done, with no relenting or understanding by the mod.

 

I'll start here in saying that, if this is the case, I apologize and that was a mistake on my part. I generally try to begin PMs with an "if you did" not a "why you did" question, unless I directly saw it happen, which I remember I did not. I cannot remember the specific wording, but if that was how it came off, that was wrong of me, and I try my best to avoid coming off with that kind of tone or attitude.


 

Reason for complaint: Faysal noticed that I was behaving strangely as AI, pretty sure because he caught me deleting personnel records from his laptop, but maybe for other reasons. He had made 1 or 2 comments about handling the AI, so, I wanted to go ahead and sting him. I shocked his doors, and when he began to complain that his doors were shocked, I sent a borg to silence him. As that wasn't likely going to work, I went ahead and shocked the doors on the way out of command to keep hurting him more.

 

Faysal never made any comments related to personnel records that I am aware of, and only referred to the RD regarding the ion storm that had occurred earlier in the round. That does not betray any knowledge about your malfunctioning status at all. This seems to have been entirely based on the assumption that he had seen you delete the records, and even then that could be passed off as an IC error or mistake while browsing the records. That is not a reason in and of itself to attempt to murder him.


If you wanted to use it as an IC excuse to murder him anyway, that would have been allowed as an antagonist, but only if you had escalated properly beforehand, the issue of the warning in the first place. In regards to the ion law, they are still completely bound by all of your other standard laws (as far as they are aware), and them suspecting you of having one is not a sufficient reason to begin murdering them with no interaction regarding it beforehand.


 

I didn't follow him "Around the station". I shocked his doors, and went about my business. A few minutes later when he complained, I came back to finish the job, by shocking exactly 2 more doors - the doors to command. I had not yet been fully outed as bad at this time, so, I didn't want to engage in further verbal communication WHILE shocking him, so that the possibility that a rogue borg or other source of shocking was at fault.

I considered shocking his doors originally part of my "escalation", since it was in no way fatal, until he continued trying to push through more doors, giving me more opportunities to shock him (which is just not the most wise thing to do, to accuse the AI of being bad and then start opening doors after being shocked once - I've been killed dead this way many times, with no more conversation).

 

You jumped to his location multiple times specifically in order to shock him. If that doesn't quite constitute "following [him] around the station," then I apologize for the poor phrasing. What you did, regardless of how its described, is still an issue, however. Preemptively attacking someone does not constitute escalation, unless there is something prefacing it. That'd be similar to saying hitting someone with a wrench is escalation for killing them when they try to defend themself. It isn't. It's actually against the rules, unless some IC interaction beforehand has warranted it. Failing to speak during the shocking would have been fine as well, and the rules specifically state that "the murder scene can be "wordless"," but this once again all relies on you having had interacted before the attacks took place.


 

I was never made aware that escalation MUST include verbal communication with the victims beforehand, or telegraphing of one's role. Knowing that the station was easily prepared to shove an emitter up my butthole (which they eventually did), I opted to try to quietly remove one of the only three members of the crew who had taken notice of my actions - the one being the most verbal.

I'm not sure how this *should* have been played, because, admittedly, I don't play mALF much (I didn't even know I had it selected, and adminhelped to be removed at the beginning of the round to no answer, so I went ahead and played it - which was fun, up until I shocked one person without some kind of monologue.)

 

Escalation does not have to involve the "telegraphing of one's role," it just has to involve interaction to begin with. You could have inquired about the issue of the ion law (reiterating, the ion law is theoretically harmless, if annoying, as all other laws are still in effect), asked how they intended to deal with the ongoing errors, or otherwise simply said anything in relation to the situation beyond immediately beginning attempts to kill Faysal. If you adminhelp with a request such as that and don't receive a response at all, it was likely just missed due to staff being busy with something else, and you're free to send another one after a reasonable amount of time (a few minutes, generally).


 

If this warning stands, the precedent that it sets is pretty heinous, as, it means we should be adminhelping each and every single time we are shocked without prior telegraphing from here on out, and we should expect that the player who shocked us be given a warning.

The initial shock was in no way fatal, so, it wasn't a gank, plenty of other paths were made available to Faysal to call for help and be properly let out of his office by someone with gloves, so, it wasn't even critical until he tried to escape and continued tattling on me for being malf.

 

The issue does not have to be fatal or gank to be improper escalation. At no point (that I'm aware of) did Faysal imply you were hostile or malf until after you had already shocked him, which offers no justification for your actions before then. Escalation does not have to be an explicit warning, it has to be, at the very least, something more than a wordless assumption, and this does not change because the antag is an AI.


Regarding the several mentions of seeing this behavior before from other antag AIs and those actions being dismissed, I can't really speak for those occurrences. There are no special rule exceptions for AI in regards to being an antagonist, and they are required to escalate and roleplay to the same standards that other antagonists are. You're free to adminhelp occasions you believe break those rules, and you can post player or staff complaints if you really believe those issues end up necessitating them.

Posted

I was the traitor CMO this round. I caused the false alarm ion storm announcement on purpose to distract the command staff so I could commit a humble array of serial killings while security was too busy handling the synthetics. They weren't really metagaming, they were baited into it on purpose by another traitor.

Posted

Alright. That serves equally well, to be honest. As I dislike being attacked by the AI, and in my view, my attack here fit the profile of the majority of attacks I've received by malf or traitor AIs, I'll reference this thread as precedent for warnings when I ahelp it in the future.


Thanks for your time, I am willing to drop this challenge given garn's assessment.

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