MO_oNyMan Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 So recently we had a lengthy discussion with security players about how current system of punishment on Aurora doesn't make any sense whatsoever. People get brigged for a 2-20 minutes for various infractions and then get released like it never happened. It is also closely connected with the legal representation issue (as the punishment is applied without any trial). So a great idea I feel is worthy of suggesting was voiced by Sue. The suggestion The new system of punishment for breaching corporate regulations would look like this: Optional warning (for minor infractions) -> fine -> demotion -> termination of contract -> holding until transfer Optional warning - is already a thing, it remains unchanged Fine - minor infractions of corporate regulations would realistically result in a fine/reduction of pay Demotion - more serious infractions or repeated offense would require administrative action such as demotion Termination of contract - a person that commits a serious enough offense or straight out refuses to follow company's standards will have their contract terminated and be demoted to a visitor for the rest of the shift Holding until transfer - if a person poses a threat to the crew or the station private security are entitled to take them into custody to prevent further damage and pass them over to law enforcement later on. As you might notice, all brig time sentences that are not holding until transfer are removed. People being processed for demotion/fine/contract termination would still have to be brought to brig, searched and registered at the crime sentencing console How would the change benefit the game? It is a more realistic way of punishment It would shut down discussions about lawyers (since we're not sentencing people, we're restraining their freedom on private property and they will get a lawyer when they are handed over to Biesel police) It fixes the brig problem (timed sentence automatically opens the cell door after the sentence is over, granting anyone with communal rights a free get out of jail card) It allows people to roleplay more (unless you fucked up badly, why would you spend 5 minutes sitting in the brig when you can interact with a crew or continue antagging. Brigging people for minor infractions just takes them out of the round for a set amount of time, serving no purpose. Antags will still antag until they get HuT, normal crewmembers are just missing out on roleplay. You can argue that timed sentence give antags less time to do their dirty deeds, but it's really a bad thing to lock antag out of the round unless they fucked badly enough to get hutted)
ben10083 Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 This suggestion makes prison useless since no one gets jailed, and by extension Warden, this is also will make people get kicked out of game alot quicker for minor infractions, -1
MO_oNyMan Posted January 20, 2018 Author Posted January 20, 2018 This suggestion makes prison useless since no one gets jailed, and by extension Warden, this is also will make people get kicked out of game alot quicker for minor infractions, -1 Clarification: holding until transfer is when you grab a criminal and brig him until the end of the round. Note: warden has a lot of shit to do besides staring down convicts in brig Note: the escalation of punishment remains unchanged. As in you will only be hutted if you would be hutted according to a previous system
Scheveningen Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 The round-based nature of the game makes this suggestion too untenable to put into practice, I'm not surprised Sue is interested in having more people held for transfer rather than not, I had honestly thought they had fucked off to Polaris for good. That's not fun whatsoever for anyone being brigged by a certain someone who takes pleasure in seeing other people upset and abusing their authority because of a power fantasy. Brigging for low severity to medium severity infractions are intended to rehabilitate and then release. Security needs to do a good job of actually explaining as to what the criminal did was wrong before releasing them. The accepted standard should not to be seek reasons to HuT people for the entire remainder of the round because you're looking for an excuse to charge them with a crime against the Republic of Biesel.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 The round-based nature of the game makes this suggestion too untenable to put into practice, I'm not surprised Sue is interested in having more people held for transfer rather than not, I had honestly thought they had fucked off to Polaris for good. That's not fun whatsoever for anyone being brigged by a certain someone who takes pleasure in seeing other people upset and abusing their authority because of a power fantasy. Brigging for low severity to medium severity infractions are intended to rehabilitate and then release. Security needs to do a good job of actually explaining as to what the criminal did was wrong before releasing them. The accepted standard should not to be seek reasons to HuT people for the entire remainder of the round because you're looking for an excuse to charge them with a crime against the Republic of Biesel. Literally the entire point of suggestion is to reduce the time people spend in brig by replacing the timed sentences with fines and demotions in the existing system. If you're worried about someone brigging some guy for no reason because of power fantasy, the solution would be to remove brig entirely along with security. P. S. I don't see how spending 15 minutes in a glass room would help a thief who stole captain's spare rehabilitate
Scheveningen Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) You're really not thinking straight. Lemme point out how. Optional warning (for minor infractions) -> fine -> demotion -> termination of contract -> holding until transfer You've changed nothing in security procedure besides remove the brig from the equation, and that is all this suggestion sums up to. Which is a poor idea, because brigging suits multiple purposes. 1. It keeps people locked up for the duration of their sentence and unable to do any damage outside of the vicinity of the brig. 2. It allows for certain problem players to calm down in a contained cell after a heated arrest. 3. There's a sense of actual consequence in the form of deterrance so that players avoid drawing the ire of security in the first place so as to avoid a very boring brig sentence with either a short to a lengthy timer, which would otherwise waste a fair deal of their time due to how processing and brig discharge goes. Removing this would not help things. It would remove any sense of consequence for committing anywhere between a low to medium severity crime as a non-antagonist, or an antagonist, really, if they know they'll get away with it by paying a fine from their account that gets refreshed at the start of every round anyway. Some characters also start with a very healthy sum of credits in their account. Terminations and demotions both do the same thing in terms of gameplay anyway. Only CCIAA (or the person playing the character themselves) holds the authority to perma-kill/fire characters. So good luck to anyone who wishes to canonize terminations outside of CCIAA doing it themselves, this otherwise won't mean much. How would the change benefit the game?It is a more realistic way of punishment No, it isn't. The brig system operates very similarly as to how naval ships function while abroad. If someone commits a crime on-board, they get locked up for a determinant amount of time and issued any other added consequences based on the infraction they committed. As soon as the ship's crew returns from abroad to their HQ, any brig offenders that had to be held until transfer to HQ are then handed over to MPs for a court martial or to be tried in a non-military court if the offender happens to be civilian personnel. The MPs will not simply let you go when you decide to spray-paint a lieutenant's Blackhawk with a flames and skulls color design without his express permission, they will lock you up either for a determinant amount of time or when a superior officer investigates and makes a decision himself as to what to do with you. It fixes the brig problem (timed sentence automatically opens the cell door after the sentence is over, granting anyone with communal rights a free get out of jail card) This is not a problem. This is an obstacle the warden must overcome by being attentive to brig timers and ensuring the communal access is secured by the time the original detainee. AKA doing their job properly. Removing features just because you think it'd make it easier is neither proper game balance or is it a good thought process to have. It reflects a lazy mindset to want substance removed from a job because it has challenges to it. It would shut down discussions about lawyers (since we're not sentencing people, we're restraining their freedom on private property and they will get a lawyer when they are handed over to Biesel police) This is already a thing anyway. Where do you think HuT individuals get handed off to for committing high crimes? If they are Biesel citizens, they have to be handled locally. If they aren't, the matter gets worse when they commit crimes in-sector as an expatriate. It allows people to roleplay more (unless you fucked up badly, why would you spend 5 minutes sitting in the brig when you can interact with a crew or continue antagging. Brigging people for minor infractions just takes them out of the round for a set amount of time, serving no purpose. Antags will still antag until they get HuT, normal crewmembers are just missing out on roleplay. You can argue that timed sentence give antags less time to do their dirty deeds, but it's really a bad thing to lock antag out of the round unless they fucked badly enough to get hutted) It does serve a purpose. If you do not wish to have your time wasted as a non-antagonist, don't commit crimes, that is by-and-large the secondary purpose of security, to shut down self-antags and police the crew's behavior. Removing this doesn't help antagonists, it helps the non-tasteful self-antagonists more and don't even say this should be a responsibility for server administration to police, because that is security's job. Antagonists are required to antagonize as part of their special function to make the round interesting, and in order for them to more effectively do that they need to play in a way that ensures they don't get caught and brigged if they wish to continue antagonizing. Antags need to be smarter than security and also more robust than all of security combined, and there are ways to do this and stay out of the brig. Tasteful self-antagonists can also do the same and neither get caught or even talked to by an admin if what they are doing makes sense in terms of escalation, but obviously to a level much less extreme than what antagonists are permitted to do. If you're worried about someone brigging some guy for no reason because of power fantasy, the solution would be to remove brig entirely along with security. Oh, no, every system surely has its flaws and downfalls but nothing is interesting without a little consequence to the game. But, no, the solution is obviously for you to stop posting because you have no idea what you're talking about. Ideally while also hypothetically if I had an issue with someone who still stuck around to be the rot of the game while playing security, I would reapply to be staff just so I could have them permabanned from the server, considering it's an issue with an individual and not necessarily something that needs to affect the entire department's playstyle, you know. Edited January 21, 2018 by Guest
tbear13 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Being fired, demoted, or fined doesn't matter. Removing brig time removes all consequences, why do I care if I lose 500 credits for one round? If I get demoted, whatever! Only lasts an hour or so, right? If I get brig time, it's a real punishment that I care about and try to avoid.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 Let me adress some issues in your response brigging suits multiple purposes. 1. It keeps people locked up for the duration of their sentence and unable to do any damage outside of the vicinity of the brig. Yes it does. But why would you suddenly set an offender free after keeping him in a cell for 10 minutes to supposedly prevent damages he can cause 2. It allows for certain problem players to calm down in a contained cell after a heated arrest. The processing serves this purpose. When you get processed, searched, your charges are stated to you and an officer talks to you about the incident - that's when everything is set straight and you calm down. Sitting in a room alone is wasting your time. If an arrest was heated enough (aka including a fight or a shootout) you will get HuTed. If you can't control yourself ouside of a transparent box you will get dealt with by staff. ICly 5 minutes time outs serve no purpose. 3. There's a sense of actual consequence in the form of deterrance so that players avoid drawing the ire of security in the first place so as to avoid a very boring brig sentence with either a short to a lengthy timer, which would otherwise waste a fair deal of their time due to how processing and brig discharge goes. Removing this would not help things. It would remove any sense of consequence for committing anywhere between a low to medium severity crime as a non-antagonist, or an antagonist, really, if they know they'll get away with it by paying a fine from their account that gets refreshed at the start of every round anyway. Some characters also start with a very healthy sum of credits in their account. Antagonists are meant to antagonise. That's how they make the round unique and fun. By locking them out of the round for minor infractions you devoid the round of its driving force. Let the antags do their antagging On the other hand, if you're not an antag, mindlessly committing minor infractions for the sole reason that you feel it doesn't have consequences will cause an IR filed against you and action will be taken regardless. If a person feels the need to self antag for no apparent reason 5 minute time out will not stop them from doing so. Terminations and demotions both do the same thing in terms of gameplay anyway. Only CCIAA (or the person playing the character themselves) holds the authority to perma-kill/fire characters. So good luck to anyone who wishes to canonize terminations outside of CCIAA doing it themselves, this otherwise won't mean much. Demotion are already applicable as punishment in corporate regulation. It serves the purpose of restraining your access to potentioally dangerous equipment that can be used by you to further commit infractions. Furthermore, antag rounds are not canon. If you get demoted on a canon round - feel free to solve this issue with CCIA. That's one of the weirder points here since no punishment is consistent between rounds short of CCIA action and taking a problem with demotions about that is senseless. How would the change benefit the game?It is a more realistic way of punishment No, it isn't. The brig system operates very similarly as to how naval ships function while abroad. If someone commits a crime on-board, they get locked up for a determinant amount of time and issued any other added consequences based on the infraction they committed. As soon as the ship's crew returns from abroad to their HQ, any brig offenders that had to be held until transfer to HQ are then handed over to MPs for a court martial or to be tried in a non-military court if the offender happens to be civilian personnel. The MPs will not simply let you go when you decide to spray-paint a lieutenant's Blackhawk with a flames and skulls color design without his express permission, they will lock you up either for a determinant amount of time or when a superior officer investigates and makes a decision himself as to what to do with you. Except Aurora is not a military vessel. Remind me the last time anyone was held in a transparent room for 15 minutes for theft in a civilian workplace and then released with no further consequences. It fixes the brig problem (timed sentence automatically opens the cell door after the sentence is over, granting anyone with communal rights a free get out of jail card) This is not a problem. This is an obstacle the warden must overcome by being attentive to brig timers and ensuring the communal access is secured by the time the original detainee. AKA doing their job properly. Removing features just because you think it'd make it easier is neither proper game balance or is it a good thought process to have. It reflects a lazy mindset to want substance removed from a job because it has challenges to it. Except it is a problem. An obvious flaw in the automated brig system is not something a warden should deal with just because "it adds spice to the role". Warden has a lot of things to do besides staring at convicts. Like updating paperwork, issuing warrants, working the armoury, processing convicts etc. The mass escape in the case of warden being busy when the timer opens the cell should not realistically be a thing. It would shut down discussions about lawyers (since we're not sentencing people, we're restraining their freedom on private property and they will get a lawyer when they are handed over to Biesel police) This is already a thing anyway. Where do you think HuT individuals get handed off to for committing high crimes? If they are Biesel citizens, they have to be handled locally. If they aren't, the matter gets worse when they commit crimes in-sector as an expatriate. Not the point here. The point is that NT is dispensing punishment without any legal counseling. While you can renew your contract, get your demotion issue sorted out or get a compensation in money by taking the issue to CCIA you can't bring back the time you spend in the brig. HuT sentence is serious enough to get you passed over to law enforcement. Other sentences is just you sitting in a room and then being released because reasons. It allows people to roleplay more (unless you fucked up badly, why would you spend 5 minutes sitting in the brig when you can interact with a crew or continue antagging. Brigging people for minor infractions just takes them out of the round for a set amount of time, serving no purpose. Antags will still antag until they get HuT, normal crewmembers are just missing out on roleplay. You can argue that timed sentence give antags less time to do their dirty deeds, but it's really a bad thing to lock antag out of the round unless they fucked badly enough to get hutted) It does serve a purpose. If you do not wish to have your time wasted as a non-antagonist, don't commit crimes, that is by-and-large the secondary purpose of security, to shut down self-antags and police the crew's behavior. Removing this doesn't help antagonists, it helps the non-tasteful self-antagonists more and don't even say this should be a responsibility for server administration to police, because that is security's job. Antagonists are required to antagonize as part of their special function to make the round interesting, and in order for them to more effectively do that they need to play in a way that ensures they don't get caught and brigged if they wish to continue antagonizing. Antags need to be smarter than security and also more robust than all of security combined, and there are ways to do this and stay out of the brig. Tasteful self-antagonists can also do the same and neither get caught or even talked to by an admin if what they are doing makes sense in terms of escalation, but obviously to a level much less extreme than what antagonists are permitted to do. First of all, cutting on the time antags spends in brig does help them since it increases the time they are involved in the round. Antags do have to antagonise as a part of their special function, however the menace of spending a couple of minutes in the brig will not make them better at doing so. If they are brigged for minor infractions it does not impede on their ability to continue antagging further on in the slightest. Only a HuT sentence is ultimately effective in stopping antags from doing their thing and in that sense there's no difference between the current system and the suggested one. As for self antags, the poor sort of self antags that do something for shits and giggles actually is an administration's responsibility to police. Honestly your stance on this combined with the fact that you used to be a part of staff slightly worries me. As for situations where self antags should be dealt with ICly you still have a variety of tools at your disposal such as fines, demotions, IRs. If you're worried about someone brigging some guy for no reason because of power fantasy, the solution would be to remove brig entirely along with security. Oh, no, every system surely has its flaws and downfalls but nothing is interesting without a little consequence to the game. The suggestion is not to remove consequences entirely, but to make them more believable and fitting for HRP server. But, no, the solution is obviously for you to stop posting because you have no idea what you're talking about. Ideally while also hypothetically if I had an issue with someone who still stuck around to be the rot of the game while playing security, I would reapply to be staff just so I could have them permabanned from the server, considering it's an issue with an individual and not necessarily something that needs to affect the entire department's playstyle, you know. Not even going to adress that. Clearly a fit having nothing to do with the discussion. Please stay on the topic and refrain from such arguments if you want to be taken seriously.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 Being fired, demoted, or fined doesn't matter. Removing brig time removes all consequences, why do I care if I lose 500 credits for one round? If I get demoted, whatever! Only lasts an hour or so, right? If I get brig time, it's a real punishment that I care about and try to avoid. OOCly the only thing that has truly no consequences is a fine. However keep in mind that this is an HRP server and players who commit infractions just because fine or demotion is not a big deal will be dealt with by staff or CCIA if they are not antags, and will draw attention of security and eventually get HuTed if they are antags
Scheveningen Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 You know traditionally speaking, security was created way back in the old days when Goon was the predominant server to deal with self-antags and the like and admins only stepped in for especially shit individuals instead of one-trick criminal ponies, yeah? Security functions as an excellent way to not only make gameplay interesting for more than one party than the person causing trouble, but also cuts out unnecessary admin intervention from the game. Literally nothing is more unenjoyable than having to freeze a scene for 20 minutes because an admin is talking to someone over either a roleplay nuance or perceived grief. I would rather sit in a prison cell and find other things to do than be forced to do nothing and wait because of admin intervention, and inevitably lose interest in the round because admin intervention managed to break roleplay flow for a long period of time. Enter security, whose job is to deal with this shit ICly unless the individual is spamming or otherwise being an excellently terrible individual OOCly. Removing the teeth from security will have nothing other than a profound negative effect on gameflow. Go ahead and try this little experiment with your own pet server or something because all of the communities have tried declawing sec before only for it to have a very negative effect on gameplay and antag interaction. Shocking, I know, having played for almost four years it's like I know what works and what doesn't compared to a much newer player who somehow thinks they know better and know what's best for a roleplay server. I couldn't tell you what's best for the server, really, but it's a great thing you're not on lead design or something. Sec would have more reason to HuT people they felt were "dangerous" rather than following guidelines to at the very least avoid immediately locking them up unless they're committing terrorism as a first crime. Revs and cultists would suffer these effects majorly, given the initial build-up in identifying both are usually smaller crimes escalating to larger ones as the round goes on, sec would be forced to play it more paranoid and safe versus these antagonists rather than just following the established guidelines they have now. You really need to think this out better. Do you even play security, or are you one of those dudes who snapped their headsets off their head because they accumulated a ton of charges for being uncooperative every step of the way with a minor issue with a security officer? These are profoundly bad ideas that I'm at a loss for words to really emphasize how much of an issue it is that these ideas are being pushed.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 You know traditionally speaking, security was created way back in the old days when Goon was the predominant server to deal with self-antags and the like and admins only stepped in for especially shit individuals instead of one-trick criminal ponies, yeah? I don't see how this is connected to the issue at hand unless you're saying that change is always bad in which case you're wrong Security functions as an excellent way to not only make gameplay interesting for more than one party than the person causing trouble, but also cuts out unnecessary admin intervention from the game. Literally nothing is more unenjoyable than having to freeze a scene for 20 minutes because an admin is talking to someone over either a roleplay nuance or perceived grief. I would rather sit in a prison cell and find other things to do than be forced to do nothing and wait because of admin intervention, and inevitably lose interest in the round because admin intervention managed to break roleplay flow for a long period of time. Enter security, whose job is to deal with this shit ICly unless the individual is spamming or otherwise being an excellently terrible individual OOCly. I would agree on that as i would prefer shitlers to be dealt with ICly rather than via admin intervention. However we do not live in a perfect world and not all people can be reasoned with by IC means. Furthermore admin intervention is not something security can influence. If the admin decides to intervene he intervenes regardless of if security want to deal with it ICly. Removing the teeth from security will have nothing other than a profound negative effect on gameflow. Go ahead and try this little experiment with your own pet server or something because all of the communities have tried declawing sec before only for it to have a very negative effect on gameplay and antag interaction. Again, punishment system is not removed in this model. It's refitted to make sense and promote roleplay. If you want to take issue with other servers trying it, provide facts and evidence. Saying "a lot of servers tried and all of them failed" is a poor argument. Shocking, I know, having played for almost four years it's like I know what works and what doesn't compared to a much newer player who somehow thinks they know better and know what's best for a roleplay server. I couldn't tell you what's best for the server, really, but it's a great thing you're not on lead design or something. Assuming anything about me as well as taking argument of my authority is an incredibly childish and desparate defense. You know nothing about me or how much i have played. If you want to shitpost instead of having a serious discussion, go do so at your own pet forum. Sec would have more reason to HuT people they felt were "dangerous" rather than following guidelines to at the very least avoid immediately locking them up unless they're committing terrorism as a first crime. Revs and cultists would suffer these effects majorly, given the initial build-up in identifying both are usually smaller crimes escalating to larger ones as the round goes on, sec would be forced to play it more paranoid and safe versus these antagonists rather than just following the established guidelines they have now. You really need to think this out better. What you're describing is a metagaming issue and i would agree except Aurora is HRP, not LRP. It's not about winning or losing, it's about creating storylines. A cultie or rev sitting in a cell for x minutes creates 0 storylines and stalls the round since this whole time they could've spent promoting their gimmick. Sec HuTing people instead of applying a proper punishment is an issue that can be adressed by their fellow officers, warden, HoS, captain, CCIA and admins, which is exactly why officers don't do that with a current system. Do you even play security, or are you one of those dudes who snapped their headsets off their head because they accumulated a ton of charges for being uncooperative every step of the way with a minor issue with a security officer? These are profoundly bad ideas that I'm at a loss for words to really emphasize how much of an issue it is that these ideas are being pushed. Again, the quality of suggestion does not depend on who voices it. Bad players can have good suggestions, good players can have bad suggestion. If you want to make your point valid, i'd suggest to not take an argument of my authority. Loss of words can easily be explained by the lack of good arguments against a given suggestion. Ideas being pushed is not an issue, the issue is the inability to have a discussion about them without resorting to cheap tactics P.S. points unrelated to a discussion will from here on out be ignored
Scheveningen Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 What you're describing is a metagaming issue and i would agree except Aurora is HRP, not LRP. It's not about winning or losing, it's about creating storylines. You'd be right, still doesn't stop playstyles from being played because no one wants their character to die. Surviving for some people is a "win condition". So people like to take extra measures to not die, such as taking threatening antags out of the round in order to suit this purpose. Whether it's permabrigging or not, it still works. You're still suggesting to remove a critical medium that determines one of many vital parts of security's gameflow and it keeps the warden occupied. Sitting at a computer or inside the armory doing inventory for the rest of the round is not a process that is enjoyable, considering I recently picked it up to play a bit regularly and the only entertaining aspect of it is the processing+brigging procedure. Every other part of it is either done in 5-10 minutes or it's just sitting around because the warden is never meant to leave the brig or act like a turbo-officer. The warden does not have other things to be doing on code green/blue otherwise. You're suggesting to remove a fundamental part of the game and I completely disagree with it. I don't care if you did some asinine and the charges are also asinine, you tough it out and wait out the sentence. It's consequence for doing a crime. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It is that simple. It is not fun to have to repeatedly fine, catch, demote and release the same idiots over and over again only for them to do the same things again when they get out. The brig is designed to waste the time of unrobust griefers and also punish individuals who commit high-profile crimes and get caught doing it. Maybe fun for the guy getting released constantly because of easily abusable regulations because someone decided it was a good idea to remove brig sentences. Ends up being a waste of time for security officers. Would rather resort to lasering people to death rather than going through the effort to catch and release crewmembers like it's cat and mouse only for the system to be extremely ineffective. More often than not if you're spending 30-40 minutes of the round locked up in a cell, you probably deserve it. Other people spend substantially way less time in a brig cell because they know it's stupid to waste their playtime dicking around with security. The system works as intended and it works excellently. I fail to see how removing mechanics that add consequence to committing crimes will help security in the slightest.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 You're still suggesting to remove a critical medium that determines one of many vital parts of security's gameflow and it keeps the warden occupied. Sitting at a computer or inside the armory doing inventory for the rest of the round is not a process that is enjoyable, considering I recently picked it up to play a bit regularly and the only entertaining aspect of it is the processing+brigging procedure. Every other part of it is either done in 5-10 minutes or it's just sitting around because the warden is never meant to leave the brig or act like a turbo-officer. The warden does not have other things to be doing on code green/blue otherwise. Warden have a lot of stuff to do besides looking after convicts as was mentioned earlier. Looking after the inmates is actually the least time-consuming activity the warden has on his hands since you just dump them in their cell and return when the time is nearly done. In fact warden has so much other duties on his plate that there was talk about a possibility of having a second warden to take some pressure off the warden. That, however is an entirely different issue. You're suggesting to remove a fundamental part of the game and I completely disagree with it. I don't care if you did some asinine and the charges are also asinine, you tough it out and wait out the sentence. It's consequence for doing a crime. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It is that simple. It's unrealistic consequence of doing a crime. In a civilian workplace a crime would realistically be met with administrative action, not jail time that is applied without any prior trial. There are a lot of possible consequences for a crime besides timed brig sentences. As for the last part it's just not applicable to antags as they are required to do crime by their role. Besides, NT is a private company, not law enforcment. They are not entitled to sentence criminals. It is not fun to have to repeatedly fine, catch, demote and release the same idiots over and over again only for them to do the same things again when they get out. The brig is designed to waste the time of unrobust griefers and also punish individuals who commit high-profile crimes and get caught doing it. Maybe fun for the guy getting released constantly because of easily abusable regulations because someone decided it was a good idea to remove brig sentences. Ends up being a waste of time for security officers. Would rather resort to lasering people to death rather than going through the effort to catch and release crewmembers like it's cat and mouse only for the system to be extremely ineffective. If it's a case self-antagging griefers, stacking charges will eventually land them in the brig permanently, get an IR filed against them and most likely catch attention of admins. If it's an actual antag a serious enough offense will get him the same HuT sentence. And if his action do not warrant a HuT sentence I'd rather have him be out there creating fun by antagging because for officers investigationg is fun. On more than several occasions I witnessed security purposefuly releasing an antag caught too early on in the round because brigging him right off the bat is not fun. Fighting an antag is fun. Chasing an antag is fun. Catching an antag is fun. Processing an antag is fun. Brigging an antag is fun. But after you leave him in his cell there's no fun to be had unless you want to interrogate him or poke fun of him. This would also make an investigation process of building a case much deeper as if you know that a guy poses a danger to the crew but all you have on him is trespassing you might want to take your time with requiesting a warrant until you get a chance to stick something more serious to him. More often than not if you're spending 30-40 minutes of the round locked up in a cell, you probably deserve it. Other people spend substantially way less time in a brig cell because they know it's stupid to waste their playtime dicking around with security. The system works as intended and it works excellently. I fail to see how removing mechanics that add consequence to committing crimes will help security in the slightest. Again. HRP. In the ideal world the motivation behind not wanting to mess with security should be "I don't want to lose my pay or get fired" as opposed to "I don't want to spend two hours of my game sitting in a cell". Now it's ambitious, but even if it's hard to achieve, trying to improve is an important thing. As for the last part there, the suggested change is not designed to help security power mechanics in any way, i don't know what gave you that impression. It is designed to implement a believable punishment system and promote roleplay as opposed to having to sit in a 3x3 room for x time because you've done something minorly wrong.
Scheveningen Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Repeat charges don't stack multiplicatively, so you can never be permaed for one case of theft each time you're released, you're sentenced the same amount of time over and over again. "Again, HRP" is not an argument for removing a system without adequately replacing it with something of proper substance to justify removing it.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 Repeat charges don't stack multiplicatively, so you can never be permaed for one case of theft each time you're released, you're sentenced the same amount of time over and over again. Actually not true, there's already flexible time in timed sentences and optional additional means (like tracking implants, demotions, fines, mandatory psych evaluations etc.) to compensate for repeated offense and such. Removing timed sentence would require another type of escalation. Like going from fining to demotion, from demotion to termination and from termination to HuT. "Again, HRP" is not an argument for removing a system without adequately replacing it with something of proper substance to justify removing it. It's not. However it is an arguement for removing a system that realistically doesn't make sense and replacing it with something that would promote people getting involved in round RP more.
ben10083 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 I fail to see how making it easier to get removed from round or demoted causes RP, I see no reason for our regulation punishments to be changed and to remove brigging times entirely.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 22, 2018 Author Posted January 22, 2018 I fail to see how making it easier to get removed from round or demoted causes RP, I see no reason for our regulation punishments to be changed and to remove brigging times entirely. Where exactly in the presented suggestion have you noticed anything about making it easier to get removed from the round?
alexpkeaton Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 I applaud the effort to think outside the box here, but I do not believe it would be effective to switch things around in the manner prescribed. I do believe that hard time translates into deterrent, even 5 minutes hard time. People don't want to be arrested because it's not just the 5 minutes in a cell. It's the 3-5 minute interaction with security and a 5-8 minute walk to sec and processing before the timer starts. Time adds up. But, despite brig time being a deterrent IMO, I also believe that time with sec is not necessarily lost time. There is plenty of time to RP and strategize. Overall, it's a -1 from me, but let me say what I do agree with. What can I get on board with from the OP? -Being more apt to invoke a fine for a first offense (whether or not after an optional warning). I have done my fair share of minor crimes. Haven't been fined once. Especially when there is no evil intent, it might be nice to get docked some pay. And, since the OP considers the notion of cross-round consequences, if we ever instituted a persistent economy which has been whispered about in the past, fines would be the way to do that. -It doesn't make sense that people can simply walk away from the brig after serving a sentence for say, a medium crime, with zero impact to their job. Yes, only CCIA can effect cross-round punishments ICly. That should not change. But department heads and the HoP should be more involved in the actions of their staff within rounds. Unfortunately, this is more an indictment of them than an indictment of the system - the system does provide for causes of demotion due to criminal activity. It is just on the heads to be aware of it and to implement it when it happens. That sort of IC RP can translate across rounds and can eventually lead to situations where heads will seek to have CCIA intervene after a couple of shifts where so-and-so had to be demoted for crimes.
Scheveningen Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 Actually not true, there's already flexible time in timed sentences and optional additional means (like tracking implants, demotions, fines, mandatory psych evaluations etc.) to compensate for repeated offense and such. Removing timed sentence would require another type of escalation. Like going from fining to demotion, from demotion to termination and from termination to HuT. Actually true, I said charges don't stack multiplicatively, if you cared to read the context appropriately. I'm fully aware of the ability to adjust the range of a timed sentence based on severity, but again, a single charge of theft can never be charged above the maximum time that can be inflicted for theft. Double jeopardy is also not allowed for a single case, to charge someone with theft twice in one brig sentence they must've done it twice in two separate instances before being caught. I.e., steals cargo's shipments, steals cash on the bar counter and makes a run for it, that's two separate cases of theft but they do not stack multiplicatively, they stack additively like all charges do.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 22, 2018 Author Posted January 22, 2018 Actually not true, there's already flexible time in timed sentences and optional additional means (like tracking implants, demotions, fines, mandatory psych evaluations etc.) to compensate for repeated offense and such. Removing timed sentence would require another type of escalation. Like going from fining to demotion, from demotion to termination and from termination to HuT. Actually true, I said charges don't stack multiplicatively, if you cared to read the context appropriately. I'm fully aware of the ability to adjust the range of a timed sentence based on severity, but again, a single charge of theft can never be charged above the maximum time that can be inflicted for theft. Double jeopardy is also not allowed for a single case, to charge someone with theft twice in one brig sentence they must've done it twice in two separate instances before being caught. I.e., steals cargo's shipments, steals cash on the bar counter and makes a run for it, that's two separate cases of theft but they do not stack multiplicatively, they stack additively like all charges do. You're talking about not being abe to go above a certain time in a sentence. I'm talking about removing time sentences completely. Therefore another blueprint for compensating for repeated offense and such would needed to substitute for a removed one. Where once were possible 10 minutes instead of 2 now would be a possible termination of contract instead of a fine. If it is still not enough for you go talk to the captain, present him the case, get a HuT order. Problem solved. Generally a suggestion is simply to replace an existing OOC based punishment that does not make sense ICly with an IC based punisgment that doesn't make sense OOCly. What it boild down to is do you believe people will go full greytide and behave like dicks just because the punishment does not affect them OOCly as much as it used to. I don't believe they will, hence the suggestion.
ben10083 Posted January 17, 2019 Posted January 17, 2019 On 20/01/2018 at 13:18, MO_oNyMan said: Snip Been a while since the last comment, do you still agree with this suggestion? Personally I feel no change is needed currently.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted January 18, 2019 Posted January 18, 2019 Its very easy to see that this was writtem by security players. It does follow that mindset. We need to remember this is still a game. Holding until transfer ends someones rounds. 20 minutes is a long time. If you want a crime to have a different punishment you should suggest for that one. -1
Scheveningen Posted January 18, 2019 Posted January 18, 2019 dammit ben this was a 1 year old thread. Still a -1 on my end.
Arrow768 Posted January 29, 2019 Posted January 29, 2019 Voting for dismissal. While it is an interesting idea, it removes a lot of the consequences for doing something that is against corporate regulations. Money, at the current point is not very important and people do not really care if they loose a few 100 credits. In addition, you fail to address what to do with someone who does not have sufficient money. If the only applicable sentence that would prevent characters from returning to the shift and causing further issues (for a time) is a HuT sentence, then this sentence will have to be applied much liberally than at the moment. Security needs a way to deal with constant troublemakers that does not involve throwing them into the permabrig after the first two offenses.
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