Admin Complaint - Pratepresidenten

[BurgerBB]

BYOND Key: BurgerBB

Staff BYOND Key: Pratepresidenten

Game ID: bSE-c3br

Reason for complaint: Unsatisfactory adminhelp

Evidence/logs/etc: See below.

Additional remarks: See below.

 

Tpr. Bolt says, "alright everyone off."
The ash is holding up against the acid!
Katya Al-Tahara unbuckled themselves!
Tpr. Bolt says, "stay in."
Tpr. Bolt shivers.
Tpr. Dilster gasps!
Michael drops what they were holding, their Hephaestus Integrated Limb left hand malfunctioning!
Cmdr Tower shouts, "Stay inside!"
Zacharias Wrede exclaims, "Wohoo!"
Tpr. Bolt says, "Stay in."
Tpr. Dilster gasps!
Cmdr Tower yells, "No one is to move!"
Tpr. Dilster gasps!
Amelie Baillieu-Marais bashes the tactical shield with the stunbaton!
diona nymph (4) says, "Oh."
Tpr. Dilster gasps!
Michael drops what they were holding, their Hephaestus Integrated Limb left hand malfunctioning!
The diona nymph (4) has been stabbed with the energy sword by Cmdr Tower!
Tpr. Bolt says, "INSDIE"
The diona nymph (4) has been slashed with the energy sword by Cmdr Tower!
diona nymph (4) says, "What about"
The steel chair has been hit by Cmdr Tower with the energy sword.
The steel chair has been hit by Cmdr Tower with the energy sword.

 

On the evac shuttle, the hull seemed like it was about to breach to an acid attack so I went inside the ERT lobby. I payed no attention to the slanted text (As in, I didn't even bother to read it) because I thought they were talking on their headsets (as it was slanted, thin text) however I realised that wasn't the case. I stopped moving when Cmdr. Tower told us not to move (and typed "Oh.") but then he started to stab me with an energy sword, which brought me to 20% health, so I then started retreating back to the shuttle. If it wasn't for his 2 misses on the chair, I would've died. Even when I was moving back to the shuttle, he was chasing me down, as proven with him hitting the chair I was crawling under.

It wasn't just me that tried getting off the shuttle. At least 2 other humans tried getting off but they were thrown back into the shuttle without injuries or pain. Doesn't make any sense that Minor Assault isn't fine to break but Animal Cruelty is.

I decided to ahelp this because there was no logical reason why they would do this, especially to a nymph. Even considering the situation, it was still a totally dick move (especially considering I followed the "Nobody move" order) and there were a million other ways for them to deal with me that didn't involve an energy sword. I would've ignored it if it was just a single hit, but that person chased me down even as I was moving back into the shuttle, as proven by the fact that I went left under a chair.

 

PM to-Staff : Yo, can you talk to Cmdr Tower? Almost killed me for no logical reason.
Your adminhelp will be tended by pratepresidenten. Please allow the staff member a minute or two to write up a response.
Ali Holmes says, "Neat."
-- Click the Primary Admin's name to reply --
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: Context?
to Pratepresidenten: Yeah like he said no one to leave the shuttle while I was already leaving the shuttle and he just started beating me with a laser sword. Almost killed me.
to Pratepresidenten: Not even a second passed before he started doing that.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: I mean, when NT top murdersquad tells you to do something, you do it at the speed of light
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: ..even if you're a slowass diona
to Pratepresidenten: No hold on a sec, this wasn't even a second.
to Pratepresidenten: It was literally him typing a message then him trying to kill me.
to Pratepresidenten: And I was a nymph, not a gestalt.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: Well.. Thats not exactly a huge loss though. Perhaps a bit rushed, but valid all things considered.
to Pratepresidenten: That is not valid in the slightest.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: Alrighty, uh. As for it not being valid, you were a "dime a dozen" nymph, with questionable levels of sentience. Was it really that bad though? I mean, I would frown upon it if you were a bipedal, but a nymph?
to Pratepresidenten: Nymphs aren't rats.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: To some they might aswell be
to Pratepresidenten: They literally are not in lore.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: IPCs and synthetics walk upright, talk and blend in with most of society, yet there are people that would bash one to oblivion and melt it down for scrap just because they're a synth, yknow? People have prejudice.
to Pratepresidenten: Nymphs count as animals are are still protected under corporate regulations.
to Pratepresidenten: If you're seriously setting up a precident that I can almost kill IPCs because "racism" then that is incredibly dangerous
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: People do. Not talking about you or people here spesifically, but lorewise.
to Pratepresidenten: Yeah but there are some things in lore that people do but you cannot do them because it breaks server rules.
[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: There isnt a whole lot more to say on the matter though. The HAPT commander is loyal to NT, and if they deemed it necessary to shoot you, then thats that. If you want to contest my verdict, you're welcome to do so on the forums.
to Pratepresidenten: Uh, alright.

 

As you might have notice, there were a lot of mistakes in my adminhelp regarding the timing of everything when compared to the logs. I believe it was about 5 seconds of grace time between the first "Stay in the shuttle." but still less than 1 second of grace time before Tower said "Nobody move."

The mention of "You're supposed to have lightspeed reaction time to ERT " bothered me quite a bit given how people's ping and thought process isn't lightspeed, and the complete dismissal of the terrible escalation of force. Given how there were confusing orders in the first place, the fact that the round was pretty much over by then, the fact that the people rescued survived hell, and the fact that the shuttle seemed to be melting from acid, and the fact that there were no other visible threats to the station (ERT checked whether or not people had a disease before going on the shuttle.) There was also a mention of deathsquad when that should be thrown out the window. To me ICLY and OOCLY it was pretty much ERT wearing deathquad colors, on a rescue mission who indeed rescued people. It was understood that they were basically "ERT but with a nuke". If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, it's a duck. Even considering legally I am an animal, it's a huge dick move OOCly especially considering their quarantine idea was last minute given the initial "everyone off the shuttle" idea.

I think the part about Nymphs shows a complete and total lack of understanding of what a nymph is lore wise and rule wise as well as the balance between ignoring things covered by corporate regulations and enforcing server rules. While nymphs are classified as animals, they're not valid to kill like rats and you'd definitely get a bwoink if you decide to kill one if it is not harming the crew or trespassing in vital areas. While legally whether or not you arrived as a gestalt or spawned as a nymph in botany, rule wise that would be considered. Saying that "Oh people are bigoted" is a long and terrible slippery slope for kids to do stupid shit like joining every game, getting drunk and chucklefuck assaulting and harassing members of a race because "Oh because people do that in lore." Half of what was said above by Pratepresidenten was just confusing to me because it's using lore as an excuse to be a dick. Last time I checked, if you valid an IPC because your deep back-story is that an IPC killed your family and you hate them, you're going to get a bwoink.

It's a case of the admin is correct in saying that the conflict is a non issue but the reasons they give are concerning and set up a dangerous precedent.

[Pratepresidenten]

Alrighty, so Ive done some logdiving, and found that There was a good 15 second period between when the commander said for people to stay on the shuttle, to the point where you where stabbed, where two additional warnings of "Stay inside" and "Dont move" were given by the commander with around 5 second pauses between them.

Reading through the complaint here, you basically start it with "I did not pay attention to the chat".

And you say you followed their "Do not move" orders, but you were attacked regardless? Either you moved or you didnt.

I was trying to give a few examples as to why some people wouldnt really care about a lowly nymph, but it seems I picked a wrong example to go by.

Icly, you dont know what the deathsquad had orders to do or what they have seen/experienced on station after they got in. HAPT, or deathsquad as they're known as, are called in when shit is fucked beyond reason. They're essentially an erradication squad.

Now, what did the HAPT do? They tried assessing and containing the threat, but that failed. So they moved onto the final contingency, going nuclear.

By doing this, they destroyed a multi billion credit, state of the art research facility, killed of an unknown alien specimen that could have been invaluable to weapons research, and killed any survivors that might have been hiding somewhere.

Do you honestly think that the Commander that ordered the absolute destruction of the station, alien specimens and possible survivors gives two shits about a singular nymph, an animal that cant follow a simple order from them to stay on the shuttle? For all that he knows, you were influenced or corrupted by the unknown aliens with something that couldnt show up on scans.

He didnt just randomly stab at you. He went at you because you failed to look at the chat and it was most likely taken as an act of aggression/defiance. They are under no obligation to protect some unknown nymph as opposed to crew.

[Garnascus]

Ill take a look over this Wednesday at about 1am. Pretty busy with things until then.

[BurgerBB]

Alrighty, so Ive done some logdiving, and found that There was a good 15 second period between when the commander said for people to stay on the shuttle, to the point where you where stabbed, where two additional warnings of "Stay inside" and "Dont move" were given by the commander with around 5 second pauses between them.

Reading through the complaint here, you basically start it with "I did not pay attention to the chat".

And you say you followed their "Do not move" orders, but you were attacked regardless? Either you moved or you didnt.

I was trying to give a few examples as to why some people wouldnt really care about a lowly nymph, but it seems I picked a wrong example to go by.

Icly, you dont know what the deathsquad had orders to do or what they have seen/experienced on station after they got in. HAPT, or deathsquad as they're known as, are called in when shit is fucked beyond reason. They're essentially an erradication squad.

Now, what did the HAPT do? They tried assessing and containing the threat, but that failed. So they moved onto the final contingency, going nuclear.

By doing this, they destroyed a multi billion credit, state of the art research facility, killed of an unknown alien specimen that could have been invaluable to weapons research, and killed any survivors that might have been hiding somewhere.

Do you honestly think that the Commander that ordered the absolute destruction of the station, alien specimens and possible survivors gives two shits about a singular nymph, an animal that cant follow a simple order from them to stay on the shuttle? For all that he knows, you were influenced or corrupted by the unknown aliens with something that couldnt show up on scans.

He didnt just randomly stab at you. He went at you because you failed to look at the chat and it was most likely taken as an act of aggression/defiance. They are under no obligation to protect some unknown nymph as opposed to crew.

 

I did not pay attention to the first "Stay on the shuttle" order at the first part of the chat for the reasons given; The next was slanted so I did not bother to read it until it was too late and I ended up reading it again, which prompted me to say "Oh." and then stand still because of the "Do not move" order. I also proceeded to type "What about the acid on the shuttle?" but was cut off because I was being beaten to death with the energy sword.

It's a huge dick move at the end of the round. Your entire justification for this is using lore as an excuse and not accounting the actual players behind the screen. You say that the "deathsquad" is "loyal to NT, and if they deemed it necessary to shoot you, then that's that." when Deathsquad are whitelist-free ghost roles that were only chosen because they wanted to fuck shit up. You can't give players with loyalty implants a free pass to do questionable things as loyalty implants, spoiler alert, aren't advanced enough to affect every single thought and action of a player OOCly. You also bring up the fact that people are racist and would be happy to kill a nymph or an IPC like a rat for no raisin when rule wise you just can't do that.

I mean if you want me to go down that road too, I can use lore to defend myself as well and possibly land that deathsquad officer out of a job. I, a partial gestalt who is only missing what would mechanically be 1 or 2 limbs, survived a direct encounter with an Alien invasion. I currently have the knowledge of their neurotoxin spit, their ways of reproducing, and their biology. I've seen the Aliens in combat, hell I even fought one. That is some valuable information, even if it is partial due to the loss of 2 nymphs. The survivors have the combined knowledge of reinforcing and saving future billion credit research stations to come. Hell, I could just straight up explain my actions ICLY that I was a survivor and so focused on salvation, that I wanted to get off that shuttle that, to my knowledge, was currently melting from an acid attack that the commanders straight up knew about . ERT are trained in dealing with survivors, especially important assets. Even if I was classified as an animal, it is incredibly stupid to injure or harm an important asset that was obviously ordered to be recovered since the ERT purposefully waited around and tried rescuing survivors.

I genuinely think you are too immersed in the roleplay to think about things OOCly. I still remember me playing as a DIonaea Roboticist, and robotics was bombed and there were 10 people in the room, including engineers and security, making all the noise in the world and interrupting movements, making it difficult for me to do my job. The Captain and HoS wanted me to borg someone, while at the same time wanted me to explain why a borg was malfunctioning. I then typed out clear and concise messages because I wanted to give security something to do instead of waiting, and I wanted to get back to the malfunctioning borg who was currently sitting there, doing absolutely nothing because their battery was removed and roleplay with it was halted. Apparently me talking like a human "broke your immersion" and so you warned me for talking normally as a dionaea during a critical moment where it would hinder other people's experience if I talked like a Dionaea. You didn't seem to care about any of this and told me to play a less stressful job next time, despite how this is a one in a thousand scenario worst-case-scenario for a roboticist. The warning was later removed because the loremaster said Dionaea can talk any way they want but it is a prime example of focusing more on IC than in OOC.

If me breaking immersion would vastly benefit five people and hinder the immersion of one, then I would do it a million times.

[Pratepresidenten]

I genuinely think you are too immersed in the roleplay to think about things OOCly. I still remember me playing as a DIonaea Roboticist, and robotics was bombed and there were 10 people in the room, including engineers and security, making all the noise in the world and interrupting movements, making it difficult for me to do my job. The Captain and HoS wanted me to borg someone, while at the same time wanted me to explain why a borg was malfunctioning. I then typed out clear and concise messages because I wanted to give security something to do instead of waiting, and I wanted to get back to the malfunctioning borg who was currently sitting there, doing absolutely nothing because their battery was removed and roleplay with it was halted. Apparently me talking like a human "broke your immersion" and so you warned me for talking normally as a dionaea during a critical moment where it would hinder other people's experience if I talked like a Dionaea. You didn't seem to care about any of this and told me to play a less stressful job next time, despite how this is a one in a thousand scenario worst-case-scenario for a roboticist. The warning was later removed because the loremaster said Dionaea can talk any way they want but it is a prime example of focusing more on IC than in OOC.

If me breaking immersion would vastly benefit five people and hinder the immersion of one, then I would do it a million times.

 

This whole segment is completely unrelated to the complaint, but I'll tell you what. You say Im too immersed with roleplay, and care too much about my own immersion being broken. The situation you were refering to was ahelped by someone, and I was observing. And at that time, I was enforcing OOC rules that applied for the diona species.

You can roleplay IPCs like army grunts, Tajara as emotionless robots or Unathi as brain damaged infants if you so please, I really couldnt give two shits about it. You roleplay how you want, but you are expected to do it in a way that is in accordance with the rules.

Because as I see it, your final line there basically state that you will break rules for convenience, and that is infact, an OOC problem.

[BurgerBB]

I genuinely think you are too immersed in the roleplay to think about things OOCly. I still remember me playing as a DIonaea Roboticist, and robotics was bombed and there were 10 people in the room, including engineers and security, making all the noise in the world and interrupting movements, making it difficult for me to do my job. The Captain and HoS wanted me to borg someone, while at the same time wanted me to explain why a borg was malfunctioning. I then typed out clear and concise messages because I wanted to give security something to do instead of waiting, and I wanted to get back to the malfunctioning borg who was currently sitting there, doing absolutely nothing because their battery was removed and roleplay with it was halted. Apparently me talking like a human "broke your immersion" and so you warned me for talking normally as a dionaea during a critical moment where it would hinder other people's experience if I talked like a Dionaea. You didn't seem to care about any of this and told me to play a less stressful job next time, despite how this is a one in a thousand scenario worst-case-scenario for a roboticist. The warning was later removed because the loremaster said Dionaea can talk any way they want but it is a prime example of focusing more on IC than in OOC.

If me breaking immersion would vastly benefit five people and hinder the immersion of one, then I would do it a million times.

 

This whole segment is completely unrelated to the complaint, but I'll tell you what. You say Im too immersed with roleplay, and care too much about my own immersion being broken. The situation you were refering to was ahelped by someone, and I was observing. And at that time, I was enforcing OOC rules that applied for the diona species.

You can roleplay IPCs like army grunts, Tajara as emotionless robots or Unathi as brain damaged infants if you so please, I really couldnt give two shits about it. You roleplay how you want, but you are expected to do it in a way that is in accordance with the rules.

Because as I see it, your final line there basically state that you will break rules for convenience, and that is infact, an OOC problem.

 

Except there were no OOC speak about rules about Dionaea at that time. No where was it stated that Dionaea are forced to talk slow, it was people's own headcanon that was later dismissed by the lead DIonaea developer.

If you want to simplify it to "breaking rules for convince" then sure, let's call it that. I'm being incredibly generous when I'm using the phrase "breaking immersion" because it's minor stuff that only admins would just PM you about and barely anyone would complain about. If my character is inconveniencing the roleplay of others because of a trait, or flaw, that I have, then I would temporarily remove that trait in order for others to have a pleasant and thorough roleplay experience. For example, my Unathi character developed and illness that they need medication for. The chemist was incredibly busy dealing with more important situations, so you know what I did? I made an excuse not to take the meds I normally take. That may break immersion for one player who knows that I normally take medication, but it makes the chemist's job much easier when they don't have to deal with making cosmetic medication.

People play on Aurora to have fun. Reasonable fun. Sometimes, immersion need to be sacrificed in order to have fun. For example, coalf ,the absolute madman, adminbussed (with a democratic vote) a green tajara named "OwO" into medical who had several types of brain damage due to the sprinting brain damage bug. It was funny as hell, but of course immersion was broken, but who cares? Medical had fun, security had fun, anyone watching had fun.

With this mindset in playing for about 6 months I think, I have received only 1 complaint in LOOC about it, and that was because of a glitch during an event that prevented me from using autohiss due to a race change. It was barely a complaint in the first place, it was just "Your lack of autohiss is triggering me."

[Coalf]

People play on Aurora to have fun. Reasonable fun. Sometimes, immersion need to be sacrificed in order to have fun. For example, coalf ,the absolute madman, adminbussed (with a democratic vote) a green tajara named "OwO" into medical who had several types of brain damage due to the sprinting brain damage bug. It was funny as hell, but of course immersion was broken, but who cares? Medical had fun, security had fun, anyone watching had fun.

 

To clarify, this was a 28 (Yes) to 4 (No) vote for "Do you want an adminbus round to test new mechanics?" right after the new update.

Multiple people get tourettes, one person got every single trauma possible, people changed colors, hair, sec got landmined, lost landimes, got canes, poked people to near death etc. OwO was a highlight

There were multiple staff members present supervising it and having fun adminbusing alongside me.

[Garnascus]

Yeah, sorry to say man but i do not see an issue with how prate handled this. Your yourself admit you didn't pay attention to the first "stay on the shuttle" order. I get WHY but it unfortunately does give the big scary death squad officer a reason to cut you up.

[BurgerBB]

Yeah, sorry to say man but i do not see an issue with how prate handled this. Your yourself admit you didn't pay attention to the first "stay on the shuttle" order. I get WHY but it unfortunately does give the big scary death squad officer a reason to cut you up.

 

But what of the way Pratepresidenten handled it? That's not the focus here, like I mentioned several times,I admit that he SOMEWHAT had the reason to do it but OOCly it's a dick move. Given the information provided he handled it terribly and it isn't his first time doing something like this. I'm going to have to ask you to reconsider.

I don't expect to be babied around but the excuses he gave to justify the behavior in the end were absolutely bonkers. It's hard to explain but in the end his decision is "right" but the reasons he gave were madness and makes me worry about ever having to deal with him again. I don't expect any kind of retribution or punishment for the guy who attacked me, but some actual clarification on whether or not saying "yeah but rp" is an excuse to be a total dick and I'm starting to see that's the case.

[Garnascus]

[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: I mean, when NT top murdersquad tells you to do something, you do it at the speed of light

[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: ..even if you're a slowass diona

 

Alrighty, so Ive done some logdiving, and found that There was a good 15 second period between when the commander said for people to stay on the shuttle, to the point where you where stabbed, where two additional warnings of "Stay inside" and "Dont move" were given by the commander with around 5 second pauses between them.

 

Im really not interested in debating semantics here man. You where given an order and had ample time to acknowledge said order based on the logs and prate's testimony. This was a very specific situation. It doesnt set any kind of "precedent" that will let you kill nymphs on sight whenever you want.

[BurgerBB]

[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: I mean, when NT top murdersquad tells you to do something, you do it at the speed of light

[Primary Admin PM] Pratepresidenten: ..even if you're a slowass diona

 

Alrighty, so Ive done some logdiving, and found that There was a good 15 second period between when the commander said for people to stay on the shuttle, to the point where you where stabbed, where two additional warnings of "Stay inside" and "Dont move" were given by the commander with around 5 second pauses between them.

 

Im really not interested in debating semantics here man. You where given an order and had ample time to acknowledge said order based on the logs and prate's testimony. This was a very specific situation. It doesnt set any kind of "precedent" that will let you kill nymphs on sight whenever you want.

 

The precedent I'm worrying about is allowing nymphs (or really any race for that matter) as non-antags because "people are racist". The server already has a problem with non-antags creating some pretty garbage conflict while the station is busy with the actual conflict (See: people killing each other in bars, suicide attempts.) but perhaps that's for another thread. Nymphs don't need more reason to be afraid of people.

[Faris]

non-antags creating some pretty garbage conflict while the station is busy with the actual conflict (See: people killing each other in bars, suicide attempts.)

 

Yes, rule violations that are dealt with when spotted or reported.

[Garnascus]

Locking and archiving. Complaint is deemed resolved.