Second OR on New Station

If it's already been mentioned then my apologies!

As a medical officer, we definitely need a second OR. Looking at the map that was given, I only see one. There is rarely a shift where we aren't using two at once, and I've even had it happen where we had two patients waiting for surgery while both ORs were occupied. Three ORs would be way too many, but two would be a good balance to have to ensure that in the event of multiple injuries requiring surgery, they can be treated.

 

When we began mapping it was amidst the debacle of adding a second OR. It was in this time that our team reached the decision that we would not be adding a second operating room, and would be using the NSS Aurora's medical proportions as a reference point. If you would like to see the return of the NSS Exodus' second operating room, then I would advise you create a secondary thread about the topic and attempt to garner public opinion - the first thread was to divided for us to reach a consensus.

There's rarely a round I see where both ORs aren't occupied at once. It's a very helpful thing to have both, as there are often times when there are multiple patients in need of surgery and if there was only one, there would have to be a waiting period.

Some could argue that surgeons could just be faster, but surgery takes a long time whether or not you know exactly what you're doing. I have the steps memorized to most of the surgeries and I can't do anything about the hard limit that still increases the time taken. If a patient comes in with critical wounds while I'm treating someone with a fracture, I can't exactly stop surgery, plop him onto a bed, and swap patients. That would be unethical and a bit inefficient, as well. With two ORs, it's at least guaranteed that there can be a cushion for a critical patient when one is already being treated for a mild fracture or other injury. Punctured lungs are very common (I swear you guys just love taking things to the chest) and while a patient can be kept stabilized with medicine, that's time spent where they can't do anything but wait for us to have the OR room filled.

I've never, ever seen a round (that isn't extended) where we only used one OR room. We have always had both in operation at least once during the round if not multiple times. I've even experienced two rounds where a patient had to wait for an extended amount of time for the ORs to be unoccupied to receive treatment. If there was only one OR, that would have been a far worse problem. Three is far too many to ask and honestly a waste of space, but two ORs provides a very safe cushion for medical staff to have during times of crisis when there's rarely a singular person in need of life-saving surgery.

I would like to have your opinions on the matter, especially those who have worked as medical staff and can offer their own views or experiences regarding either the necessity of two ORs or if only one OR will suffice.

How about no.

Before we changed to bay-code, we've had three surgery rooms. You just had to cooperate with people just outside of your medbay, you know, talking to people. If one OR wasn't enough, you could always ask a friendly surgery-trained geneticist/biologist to lend you his advanced surgery table for a minute or two. You could always use the robotics lab table, or even ask research and engineering to build you a new one, wherever you like.

Also, you're not supposed to heal everyone in the most efficient way, everytime something happens. If you can't operate now, just give the patient some painkillers, stabilize his vitals and have him bite a pillow. You could also actually talk to him, and not just treat him like an NPC dummy or an optional quest, heal and throw out of the medbay after you're done. Or, you could just let the patient die, euthanasia or something, sometimes it's better to just let someone die, considering that dying is a part of the game, too.

Or, as I earlier described it, you could prepare before-hand, just before shit hits the fan. If there's a few surgeons with nothing to do, have cargo or research print out some surgery tools for then, have atmospherics fill empty oxygen tanks with sleep-gas. If it's really needed, you can just operate on a rolling bed.

Everything you need is already there. You just need to use it properly, and not have the staff and devs spoon-feed you.

I'm honestly a bit surprised by how adamant you are about this. Perhaps I'm interpreting it as a bit more forceful than the text is trying to convey, but you seem very firm that I shouldn't be requesting this.

Firstly, it's incredibly out of our way to do your first option. If I have a patient critical that needs surgery, I don't likely have the time to cross the station in a possible state of crisis to arrive at R&D and request the robotics people take time out of their work to go open the doors and let us use their table. The same goes with the biologist who likely has a job to do outside of being our door maid and ferrying us around R&D so we can perform surgery in an emergency situation.

As well, it doesn't seem reasonable that I have to request that a new OR or operating table alone must be hand built. I either need it and it's there, or I (and those involved in making it) get tired of begging to prep a second OR for the sake of preparation. Perhaps the first few times it'll be interesting but if it has to become a habit on top of setting up the engine then eventually it'll become akin to a chore and won't be very enjoyable.

Secondly, I'm aware, but we're also supposed to do our jobs to the best of our ability, our IC, doctorate tier ability. It's our job to keep people safe and we've trained a long time to do it. And yes, we usually do stabilize them however we can and ensure they won't go critical from any injuries. We can start supplying comfort pillows if necessary, and we usually do communicate with our patients and explain what we can, but here's the thing. Nobody wants to be in a hospital or medbay longer than they have to be. Everyone has a job to do; if people wanted to chat they would've gone to the bar and not gotten their faces shot off or whatever injuries they have. When patients ask questions, they're answered. Aerianna does chat with patients and offer that she can be contacted via radio or PDA, but she has a job to do usually and has to tend with other patients and ensure their treatments are on the way or to organize them.

Also, that's a terrible idea regarding just letting them die. Dying is a part of the game, but saving someone's life is part of my duty IC and OOC, and I'm not going to let someone die if I can help it. I'm not going to euthanize someone or let them die just to clone them or even put them in the morgue, effectively ruining their entire round because I'm incompetent.

Thirdly, your only valid point is operating on a rolling bed in critical scenarios. Everything else goes in with my explanation that if cargo has to prepare our tools every round because we don't have the tools we needed already may become a chore that doesn't have to be there at all. At the very least, a locker full of emergency tools (just another set) would be wonderful if nothing else. Because then at the very least we have the tools we need.

I'm not asking the staff to spoon feed me, and honestly you're a bit hostile over something that you don't seem to understand. The thing is, everything we need isn't there for my standards. I made this thread to request a second OR because I don't see it as just a convenience factor, but a necessity. I'm not asking to be spoon fed, I'm desiring a resource to be provided that I feel should already be there.

If I'm wrong, then I'll accept that after more review and input, but for now I still think it's something that would be helpful, if not vital to an optimal medbay.

I am in support of this idea, mostly because it means we would be getting a new station.

two surgery rooms isn't enough. the idea of reducing it to one is ludicrous.

deifnitely support

dreamix what's up with you?

As a note, I should clarify that the biologist currently has an operating room appended to their lab for purposes of organ transplants. How stocked this OR is is not definite, as the biologist role is still work in progress as far as I know. If we decide to have a second operating room the biologist's will be removed, and the biologist will have to use the operating room for their transplants. There is no reason for medical to have more than two operating tables at round start.

I will be with-holding my opinion because I do not wish for anyone to think that there is design bias in this new map, however I'm sure that my opinion of some months ago is still on the okd thread.

two surgery rooms isn't enough. the idea of reducing it to one is ludicrous.

deifnitely support

dreamix what's up with you?

two surgery rooms isn't nearly enough, i demand we move up to four and they each be assigned their own personal chef

this should help the chef's job feel more valued

I would actually be fine if the biologist could access a sort of "secondary" operating room. It would be useful for emergencies but generally it seems safer to have the ORs closer to where people go when they get hurt. Two is the only amount I'm shooting for right now. Three is nice but excessive in most situations. Two is enough for most scenarios, but it's rarely too much. I feel bad that we'll be stealing the biologists OR if we have two but I just honestly feel it's helpful to have two located in if not immediately near the medbay.

I would actually be fine if the biologist could access a sort of "secondary" operating room. It would be useful for emergencies but generally it seems safer to have the ORs closer to where people go when they get hurt. Two is the only amount I'm shooting for right now. Three is nice but excessive in most situations. Two is enough for most scenarios, but it's rarely too much. I feel bad that we'll be stealing the biologists OR if we have two but I just honestly feel it's helpful to have two located in if not immediately near the medbay.

The biologist's operating room is currently privatized for their own use. The biologist is a part of medical bay, and so in theory in the case of emergency their OR could be used. I however dislike this scenario, and if public consensus agrees that two operating rooms is necessary for standard operation I would merely move the buologist's OR and make operating rooms accessible to both surgeons and biologists.

As an experiment, I would like you to consider this situation without antagonists in mind. While ultimately I don't care for the meta-distinction between that mythical 'standard operation' and the more common 'every single round that isn't extended', this was a point raised often in the old thread.

Even with the distinction in mind, it's rare that one person is hurt at one time. Generally, incidents occur with multiple parties injured or involved. A blob that harms multiple people, a breach or explosion that damages personnel and requires their treatment immediately due to punctured lungs or damaged organs or otherwise broken bones that disallow any sort of performance in their job.

I've had normal, workplace-esque incidents barring antagonist involvement where people have come in more than one at a time, and while it is possible to just inject them until they're swimming in dexalin, inaprov, and tricord (okay maybe not that bad) it's preferable to get everyone back to working condition immediately, especially in an environment where they're hired to perform a task in a very valuable station. From an IC standpoint, Nanotrasen would want to eliminate any downtime incurred from surgical queues from workplace injuries. With one OR available, it would not only be a likelihood, but inevitable that a queue of personnel waiting for surgery will form.

I would be more than happy to share an additional OR with the biologist, I don't mind if it serves a double purpose cause I don't mind them being able to do their thing. I just know that it will always be a possibility that we need to utilize both at regular intervals.

Triage is a part of medicine. The CMO, or surgeon should have to make decisions about who to treat. How is it not ethical to stop surgery on a bone fracture to save a life? Life over limb is another concept key to modern medicine. A small hospital serving a town of ten-thousand might only have one or two operating rooms, a space station with less than a hundred crew? Ludicrous to have more than one. Sure, I'd love to have a huge 5 dispenser well stocked chemistry lab, three ORs, five cryo tubes, two odysseus and twenty medibots patrolling the hallways.

There are three kinds of patients:

Those who are likely to live, regardless of what care they receive;

Those who are likely to die, regardless of what care they receive;

Those for whom immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome.

Patients that have a condition that can wait, should need to be bumped aside for critical patients.

There are tons of surgeries that can be put off. Bone fractures, amputations, limb re-attachments, brain damage, various organ damage, and on. Organ, brain and eye damage all have alternative treatments if the OR is occupied. Peridaxon is a thing, as is Imidazoline, and Alkysine.

There are some that are kinda critical like appendicitis, internal bleeding (not sure if the baycode overdose bicaridine works on aurora, haven't had a chance to test it), or xeno chest bursters.

If you're really super hard up and your patient is about to die, there are a few options. Ghetto table surgery, or stasis bags being two of them. Really though, there are only those three surgeries I can think of that are super time critical, and internal bleeding might even be treatable without it, chest bursters are super rare, and appendicitis takes a long time to become critical. If someone ignores all the pain messages long enough to die from appendicitis, they kinda deserve it.

I would actually be fine if the biologist could access a sort of "secondary" operating room. It would be useful for emergencies but generally it seems safer to have the ORs closer to where people go when they get hurt. Two is the only amount I'm shooting for right now. Three is nice but excessive in most situations. Two is enough for most scenarios, but it's rarely too much. I feel bad that we'll be stealing the biologists OR if we have two but I just honestly feel it's helpful to have two located in if not immediately near the medbay.

The biologist's operating room is currently privatized for their own use. The biologist is a part of medical bay, and so in theory in the case of emergency their OR could be used. I however dislike this scenario, and if public consensus agrees that two operating rooms is necessary for standard operation I would merely move the buologist's OR and make operating rooms accessible to both surgeons and biologists.

As an experiment, I would like you to consider this situation without antagonists in mind. While ultimately I don't care for the meta-distinction between that mythical 'standard operation' and the more common 'every single round that isn't extended', this was a point raised often in the old thread.

I'm personally of the opinion that medbay does operate better with two ORs. While it doesn't make much difference for smaller-population rounds, prime time tends to have a slot of medical emergencies cropping up at the same time, and having a second OR means two people can be operated on at once.

CRAAAAAZY idea here guys.

One slightly larger surgery room.

Two surgery tables.

ALA field hospitals. One left, one right of the door leading in. Maybe a glass screen between the two preventing "spray'. Patients get wheeled in and out down the center lane, stuck on the tables, tools are on the left and right edges of the room in two sets, surgeon slices and dices one after the other or you bring in a second surgeon and really get cooking.

If there's a crush, you can do two operations at once. You can even prep your next patient while your one surgeon works on the first. Hectic? Yes. Cramped? Yes. Budget-saving? Yes. Space saving? Yes. Manpower saving? One orderly can attend two tables. Hygenic? Well you can just be cleaning up Table #1 while the surgeon puts on fresh gloves and goes to Table #2. Add two sets of surgical tools and we also nip "lost the cautery supply print me one stat" in the bud. Less-than-world-class workplace hospital facility that would befit an isolated space station built by cost-cutting bureaucratic committees? Absolutely. Hell, it even feels cheaper and more grimdark than only one good OR, because its two shitty ORs duct-taped together due to budget and space restrictions.

I like that idea Nikov, as long as there is a bunch of humorous banter between the surgeons while they operate.

Also if I can name my character Hawkeye, BJ, Hot Lips, Frank Burns, or Charles Winchester.

Oh and rename medbay to the 4077th.

2 ORs on one station is fine. They should remain in the medical bay, however, given it's the most sterile environment in comparison to just about anywhere else.

There are ways to stabilize folk indefinitely until they're operated upon via surgery. Learn what those ways are, stop complaining, and then start bragging about how much of a medical powergamer you are because there's honest to God not that many of them anymore.

I'm suddenly in love with Nikov's idea because it sounds awesome. I was going to suggest it originally but he said it far better than I could have. Also. Nice mash reference. And often, those medications aren't available due to the chemist investing time into other resources or chemicals. It's nice to be able to perform the surgeries instead of magical space medicines.

Also please don't joke around, either that, or don't be so blunt with arguing the matter. I'm aware of stasis bags and medications and all that. My main argument here is getting people back into business without having to have them stowed away in a magical space bag or otherwise filled with medications until they can be restored to enough stability to be returned to their duties.

I will be more than happy to roleplay with patients and keep them entertained, but I have a job to do and so do they. A handful of people (Dylan, Manfred, and Anna stand out) do come to the medical bay to roleplay, but most people come because they got hurt and need to be healed so they can go back to their jobs. I can keep people in cryopods an entire round and they'll survive, but that isn't what I'm trying to accomplish. I mean yeah, they need to survive, but my goal is to return them to full health so they can go back to their jobs. Truly critical patients take immediate priority, but ideally, everyone needs to be treated quickly, from a broken hand that prevents someone from doing their job, to an alien chest burster that is causing slight abdominal discomfort.

Nikov's idea is pretty good IMO, and theoretically should use less mapping space (You don't need to wall off two separate ORs, some equipment can be consolidated into a single tile instead of having two separate lockers, only need one observation room, etc). I'd be game for that.

Nikov's idea is pretty good IMO, and theoretically should use less mapping space (You don't need to wall off two separate ORs, some equipment can be consolidated into a single tile instead of having two separate lockers, only need one observation room, etc). I'd be game for that.

This would be great. Observe multiple operations at once through one window.

Allows for less department usage, and allows for everything to be a little closer together.

After discussing it with the rest of the map team, I have come to the conclusion that two operating rooms at round-start is unnecessary. In cases of emergency there are a plethora of other more interesting options, and triage renders the necessity of a second operating room minimal at best. That said, the biologist will retain his operating room, and there will be a deconstructed operating room at round-start should the CMO requisition engineering to build a new one. (In fact a deconstructed operating room had been part of the maintenance tunnels since I first designed them, however I made it more accessible to medical personnel.)

Well, I obviously heavily disagree with that consensus, but I'm not involved in the map making process or the decision that was made that a second OR was needless.

I concede my point, then, as I've done what I was asked to do and cannot do anything more.

My question is if the double-OR was considered in the discussion. A deconstructed OR at round start sounds like an Engineering chore less than a feature, to be completely frank.

After discussing it with the rest of the map team, I have come to the conclusion that two operating rooms at round-start is unnecessary.

What the heck man?

Did you consider discussing it with any of the medical players, perhaps?

A deconstructed room is not good enough. Engineering will constantly rebuild it every round for a little while, then all the engineering players will get bored of the repetition, and then it'll never get built at all. One stuck away in a specialist office where not everyone can access it, is no good either. There are plenty of dual-surgeon teams who often work together in medbay, split the work between then, and RP conversations about it afterwards. You're just ruining their game.

This is just dumb, don't kneecap a perfectly functional department because you think it'd be more interesting. Medical is one of the few departments that's already interesting, fairly well balanced, and doesn't generate tons of complaints for the admin team. Don't fix what isn't broken, there's plenty that IS broken for you to work on. Just give us our two ORs and leave us alone

My question is if the double-OR was considered in the discussion. A deconstructed OR at round start sounds like an Engineering chore less than a feature, to be completely frank.

All ideas and concerns brought up in this thread were discussed by the map team. While community suggestions are appreciated, and community concerns will be discussed whenever they are brought up, the concerns in this thread were discussed and we determined that a second OR was more of a luxury than a necessity, and that in fact medical has done fine without a second OR for a very long time. While I personally liked your idea on an aesthetic level, mechanically speaking it was unnecessary.

After discussing it with the rest of the map team, I have come to the conclusion that two operating rooms at round-start is unnecessary.

 

What the heck man?

Did you consider discussing it with any of the medical players, perhaps?

A deconstructed room is not good enough. Engineering will constantly rebuild it every round for a little while, then all the engineering players will get bored of the repetition, and then it'll never get built at all. One stuck away in a specialist office where not everyone can access it, is no good either. There are plenty of dual-surgeon teams who often work together in medbay, split the work between then, and RP conversations about it afterwards. You're just ruining their game.

This is just dumb, don't kneecap a perfectly functional department because you think it'd be more interesting. Medical is one of the few departments that's already interesting, fairly well balanced, and doesn't generate tons of complaints for the admin team. Don't fix what isn't broken, there's plenty that IS broken for you to work on. Just give us our two ORs and leave us alone

Any further concerns can still be brought up in this thread, as our decisions are not final until the map is actually released. However repetition of the same ideas by the same people will not go a long way to convincing us that a second OR is necessary, and unnecessary hostility towards our decision will only alienate us from you.

I'll advertise it once a round to get a fresh batch of opinions. I've said my point and I tire of making paragraphs to fully explain why I desire it. Hopefully, whoever else replies will have more to say or more support, but if it still falls short, then there isn't much other option I have.

In fact. Can I hear the opinions of the mapping team? Why is it deemed a luxury to have two ORs? Are any of those on the map team medical staff ICly on a regular basis, and can they offer why they think that one is adequate for the heavy majority of scenarios (I'm going on the assumption that it's been decided that it's rare for a second to be needed)? How has the medbay functioned just fine without a second OR for a "very long time" if we've had two ORs ever since this current map has been available? I'd like to hear their own argument in a bit more detail, if you would. It would be easier to feel involved in the discussion when the opposing side's argument is fully laid out, rather than ours dismissed as unnecessary.

I'm sure the majority of med players would like a second operating room, regardless of whether the mapping team plans on it or not.