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This is something that I think is very important to address, when you're left behind on an Odyssey, it's not just "i don't get to interact with the gimmick" it's "I literally can't do anything this round because even if I weren't interacting with the gimmick the vast majority of my RP opportunities have all gone down to the gimmick and there are like 3 people aboard right now" I have nothing more really to add to this except yes please do more horizon-centric odysseys.

Right, look. The topic of the Horizon's militarization and anything surrounding that topic, is one that is at current, closed for discussion. The maintainers have a position they've made clear, and me and kermit as loremasters agree with their position on the topic quite clearly, so there's no use going around in circle arguing about it. It may be revisited at a future date, in which case people can say whatever they want if we open a public discussion thread, but this thread isn't a place to air grievances about it. If you don't like the decision, we have a staff complaint forum for a reason. As for my actual thoughts on the suggestion; I think that there is a lot of crossover between the behind the scenes stuff the lore team does for planning events and arcs, and not only running an odyssey but coming up with a general idea for one. That said, as someone with alot of experience in the former, I feel comfortable saying people commonly underestimate how easy it is to involve every department in what is happening in a round, in my case event rounds. It's actually pretty difficult in most situations, especially when there's a specific story you want to tell ahead of time; and this is for event rounds that are heavily planned out ahead of time, have whole documents written up for them, and an admin who is there specifically to help ensure the event goes smoothly. It's even more difficult for a solo storyteller to do in a single round. I had a whole section written out about how the unathi events were planned because I was involved in that first as a deputy, then as unathi writer, then as loremaster, but it boiled down to a simple principle. When a story requires a specific thing for the Horizon crew to do/complete/ensure happens whatever synonym you want to use, either for the story to progress or simply because that's the type of round the storyteller is running, it is almost impossible to involve every single department. The unathi events were only able to pull this off because a majority of the storyline they were about was one I came up with and wrote Izaku specifically for back in May of 2022, and was eventually planning to do as an article arc, not an event one. The Horizon didn't need to do anything for it to occur, it could happen around them rather then through them. This is a baseline, the extensive custom mapping(thank you rusting, shaky, and all other mappers who helped out) and extensive planning that was done for it allowed it to shine. For storytellers however, they're trying to currently* do something on the fly with little other structure provided besides a map. The easiest thing to tell a story therefore is to give the Horizon's crew a task, something they have to do; but tasks, unless they are insanely large or there's multiple of them tailored for every department, cannot possibly encompass the entire crew and all departments. It is unreasonable to think that it would. I think bear's suggestion is the only reasonable one with this in mind, in terms of what we can currently do; I think going forward however, there's a couple things. Firstly the creation of odyssey's that are part of a larger story. The Lore Team will start looking into ways to have larger ongoing stories taking place that odyssey's can be built around, somewhat similar to what we did in KOTW where the Aurora had the whole battle for biesel happening around it and nearly all the antag gimmicks reflected that wider story. There's a few obvious issues with this immediately, but I'm not getting into them here. Secondly, given that it's going to be basically impossible to involve all the Horizon's Departments and crew in every odyssey, create a ton of different odyssey's that cater to different departments. It's not a perfect solution, but it'll balance it out a bit more. Re-use assets where-ever possible, like with Stev's nuclear missle silo/bunker thing, have the potential for the odyssey to be the horizon crew just repairing it, or restocking it before a new crew comes and takes it over, or helping out the people crewing it. Tons of different possibilities. Third, potentially make our future event arcs significantly longer with fewer 'planned' big events but have dev work during development go towards making tons of different potential canon and non-canon odysseys during that arc. I will discuss this with matt and arrow, but need to preface this by also saying this probably won't be in effect for the next arc, and the one after that even if we decide to do it, for reasons I can't disclose here. Lastly, and this one may be a bit controversial. Allow Odyssey's to come to the Horizon. Having them only be away sites will always be limiting, and I don't see a reason for them not to sometimes still be ship-centric. One of the best things about the Horizon is that we change regions often, and the best way to have consistent odyssey's would be to have some which don't require region specific maps or similar, but can happen anywhere the ship is and only need like, a shuttle mapped in. If the maintainers already said no to that and I just missed it, ignore me, and apologies. *to the best of my knowledge

You mean the "militarizing"? Yea, all of that was making sense in a paramilitary structure, where everyone know how to hold a gun and use it, and could be made to become part of the fighting force if needed. It doesn't in a civilian ship where your cook knows how to cook and maybe pull the fire alarm when the space carp tries to make him its meal Now you understand why outcrying the "militarization" etcetera was a stupid thing that was done. We however have the motto "play stupid games, win stupid prizes", people played the game, and are now discovering the prize they won The point is always the same: They are needed. A cook in a random scenario that doesn't involve cooking, especially if possibly unsafe, isn't None of this outweights that it would be throwing yourself in danger without any need nor reason to, which is against self-preservation and OOC-in-IC motivated

So awhile back when we were still on the Aurora there was a movement against rounds that went like this for non sec/command. You would be minding your own business as a doctor, engineer, whatever.. and it'd go to code blue. If anything was said it was "Something is happening", than perhaps later code red, announcement saying get out of the halls.. you'd hear shooting in the distance maybe. if your med someone would show up cuffed, in and out before you could really talk. than code green. You'd have to pull teeth basically to get sec to tell you what was going on, let alone get you in on the action. Thankfully, we moved away from this as a sever and have a culture more focused on "Yes and" RP when it comes to involvement. Sending the bare minimum needed crew for a mission and no more is OOC'ly crap. When things happen on the ship, when there's a hostage situation on the ship, its there, its down the hall, its happening and on radio, even if your the bartender your affected by its proximity. People can stage, they can prep, command may be there organizing, its a place to be, and a place to RP or be involved in RP. Odessey if we're moving to the idea of its proper, and if anything logical to use the minimal teams needed, this is gone. Its happening off ship, away from here. My round as the engineer who didn't get picked to go play with sec is I spend 2 hours just... hanging out? while other people are involved in a cool story I can't play with. Back to the ship example, IRL ships have cooks. its some guys job to make pancakes for people in pirate and contested waters. its some guys job on the Horizon to build forward bases in a possibly dangerous environment, even without a gun. Thats reasonable. I think if we need more "IC logic" to have people going. Lean into it being an exploration ship, maybe everyone who wants to go on a mission has completed a 1 - 2 week safety and basic survival course or something idk. To stave off accusations of this making the ship militarized or giving people an excuse to be a John sol badass, Cruise ship hotel staff usually have five days at least of training on personal survival, first aid, fire suppression, and similar skills. it wouldn't be much to say the company trains people the basics of "Don't wander off into the woods alone" "Don't pet strange alien creatures" "Don't get in the space shuttle marked "Free Phoron". I keep repeating the phrase "Optimizing ourselves out of fun", and that's because that is what this is. It's defeating the chance for fun stories. I've said my piece, so im going to stop with this post. I appreciate you replying and discussing this with me. Just don't want to clog up with us going in a circle.

You're missing the key point: They're needed to be there, which is why they're being sent there - someone has to go down the depth and build thing is there because there's something that needs to be built, the sailor is there because the ship needs sailing. A bartender isn't there because in the middle of the somali pirate infested sea there's no compelling need to serve a Manhattan, there's no neurosurgeon, there's no pharmacist, there's no a lot of things that aren't needed to be there, there's only what is needed to be there There is no problem sending eg. engineers if you need a long-term base built on Hivebot Prime or whatever, even if there's a (reasonable) risk, they are needed to do something, so they have a reason to be there, protected by Security - that is the equivalent of what you're indicating in your example You can abolutely build a big plot like the one you're describing, you start with "we needs a party thrown, send down people to setup a party house and prepare a party", at which point the Horizon would send engineers to build it, security to kill xenofauna, mining to clear up the soon-to-be frat house, cooks to cook the party things, bartender to bartender, operations would haul the things needed to and from the horizon etc. etc. - After that, you can pop up with Mechafrost escorted by 3 John Sol, ground the shuttle and take everyone hostage or what have you. You can pick this story apart. Don't. It's just an example On the other hand, investigating facility X for possible crimes against humanity doesn't need a bartender, or a cook, or operations or the likes, and it's possibly unsafe, so you would send security, possibly an FR, and science if the crime has something to do with scientific research or similar. You'd not send the cook, or the bartender, or an engineer (unless they have to break something open), or operations, in such a story

Look I'm gonna stop the pontification as you say and basicly ask you this, and say again on the original topic. Also, the guys they send to the gulf of Aden are not elite mercenaries, or hardened badasses, they're 20 something able seamen. they're regular people. The guys who dive beneath the ocean to build things in the suffocating dark are just guys, regular people of all walks of life and training undertake dangerous jobs because they agree too, and they get paid to. Also in your example, yeah they have guards to protect them (even if thats not the most common thing). In our context of Aurora the crew has security to protect them? Who is Odyssey for? The Area of Operations is not always going to be 100% safe, your right. But we play 2 hours rounds, give 40 minutes for setup. so we got 80 minutes, to tell a story, deploy, and shake it all out at MOST. I'm not saying the cook should be the first through the breach, I'm saying the crew should setup outposts, or build and entrench where they go. Because that gives a reason for others to arrive to man these outposts. Because its a game, and its fun. Your right! if we wanted minimized casualties sending just sec and a medic or two, maybe an engi to build barricades would do that, but its as I said optimizing ourselves out of gameplay. That outcome becoming the norm for odyssey would imo be a tragedy, as now not only is all of the content centered on sec, command, and friends.. its not even on the ship, its far off with no chance of me being involved if im not playing sec/command. so I'm going to ask this Why should I as Story teller, or readied up actor try to build a big plot with any tension in it, if its just for the guys with guns to come shoot, and they can come alone. Should engineering, or medical aside from paramedics deploy? should science get to go gather samples or if you dont have sec with you its a no go Should people get to deploy after the threats clear to look around? What do you see as the "Average Odyssey gameplay loop". And what role, if any, do the departments play in it On the original idea of SOP. I again want to stress strongly we already struggle to get teams out on time. I dont want to IC argue over strict SOP beyond what I would infer falls under OOC rules of "you need to actually play the game mode and send someone" and "dont do the bare minimum"

If the ship is at risk, yes it would make sense to not send them, but that would mean not sending anyone if your home is under threat; you'd deal with whatever is putting your ship at risk first Aside of that it's a choice between the possibly dangerous situation you could walk into and the ship floating in space that is so far known to be safe, you could split your security half and half or you can consider the ship safe enough (also because BCs have their little armory, you can build mechs with weapons etc.) and send them to deal with whatever mission central needs dealt with Neither Mining nor Science are trained to shoot people, mining shoot the PKA on some xenofauna in areas without atmospheric pressure, science at most tries their creations in the firing range. Security is trained to deal with pirates, terrorists, hostage situations, high stress situations, the various different environments and whatnot - think of it as a SWAT team - and have done so, canonically, often. They are your right arm to punch things with

You could argue security shouldn't go at all because the ship needs to be defended and protected, and in fact the bad ass gun psychos of science or the rugged salvagers of mining can and will defend themselves, just as they do for every dig site or direlect they come across. But that excludes security, and it's a BIG problem if security is excluded, so I guess I'll need to suspend my disbelief for a second so that other people can have fun.

Again, no, the point is that if you aren't needed to do something there, there is no reason you would be sent there unless it's known to be safe, and there's no reason your character would reasonably want to go there either. Security isn't a deathsquad but they're the ones that know how to use guns, have them, have the license to use them, and deal with whatever risk could be present, that's why you send them. A cook, a bartender or the likes has no reason to go to a possibly unsafe zone possibly to his death for absolutely no reason, as he isn't needed there. If the story was "we need to throw a party down here" you would be right the cook and bartender would come down and security probably wouldn't (and this is one of those boredom MKUltra situations where the place is known to be safe), sending them in other scenarios where they aren't needed is a lack of self preservation via OOC-in-IC reasoning. You can pontify all the rationalizations you can dream of ontop of this, until you see Amazon sending their finance accountants in somali-pirates-infested waters it still won't make an iota of sense, they send the sailors needed to keep the ship running and armed personnel to shoot the pirates. I'm confident you can extrapolate to our setting.

This is again an issue with the wiki itself - parsing functions are incredibly irritating to work with and around, and it's not possible for me to define them with what's called magic words in mediawiki without creating a whole seperate page for just that parsing function. While the back-end doesn't look like this now because a ton is subject to change, what I eventually want it to look like for everything would be similar to this; '''Research Director:''' Wealthy, {{#expr: (({{WealthySalary}}) - ({{WealthySalary}} * {{Tax}})) * {{NetIncome}} round 0}}cr a month (anything in brackets besides the expression itself is is a value the wiki is pulling from a completely seperate page, so {{Tax}} means the wiki pulls the value on the Template:Tax page, or 0.15 to then use in the math; these pages can contain only raw numerical values or expressions that output only raw numerical values or it'll error) aka no numbers at all on the page itself, just expressions using parsing functions assigned to magic words. For IPCs, or any non-human/skrell species It'd have to look like '''Research Director:''' Wealthy, {{#expr: (({{PosiWealthySalary}}) - ({{PosiWealthySalary}} * {{Tax}})) * {{PosiNetIncome}} round 0}}cr a month where {{PosiWealthy Salary}} would have to be it's own page and be a parsing function of the expression {{#expr:{{PosiAverageSalary}} * 8}} and {{PosiAverageSalary}} itself would also have to be it's own page and parsing function of {{#expr:{{AverageSalary}} * 0.75}} or smth. Expand this to cover everything and for each species I'd need to create on average ~14 new pages per species, or ~70 in total for all non-human skrell species, massively bloating this project, and this is before even considering corporations. I also can't shove all these expressions on one page because of the way the wiki works with calculations; magic words which define parsing functions of expressions which have a numerical value and can be used in calculations are determined by page name alone and can't be assigned to a specific expression on a specific page, unlike hyperlinks where I could use subtitles like [[The_Wasteland#Clan_"Gawgaryn"_-_The_Punished_Clans|raiders]] to link to a specific part of the page. Now there might be a way to work around this issue by using precedence, positional parameters, conditional expressions, and other parsing functions, but I'm still looking into it and a way to sort of force the wiki to output a raw number instead of a string or something else. For reference if someone thinks they might be able to figure it out; here's the help pages for most of the stuff I'm using; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words# https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Expr_parser_function_syntax# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Conditional_expressions https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Representation_of_numbers_in_expr_parser_function Lastly as to why I just won't make either 70 new pages or have all the raw math on one page, the whole point of this is to make it incredibly easy to edit on the fly by future writers, and sort of 'foolproof' it so that changing it doesn't require complete understanding of how the system works. For example, should I go through with this, should a future writer want to say, double the cost of food for the Horizon crew, they'd just need to change the value on the Template:FoodCost page from 320 to 640, and everything else would automatically update as shown in these pictures. Before: After(just refreshed the page after saving the changed value before reverting that change) it'd also update across the entire wiki, no matter what page the expression was on. However I'll see what I can do with the wiki backend to allow for a more expansive scope.

its time for a long post ™️ So let's break down the militarization. I actually agree with you on the last part, I wanted to keep the crew armory, and continue to say I want more danger, I want off maps to be empowered to screw with horizon. I think our setting has been written to be dangerous, it should play like that too. We're not the military on ship! thats true! but we also dont all wanna die in deep space far from help. Your right that we're in a have your cake and eat it when it comes to direct "your going to war" kinda stuff. But going on an away mission isn't militarization. Just as the current norm is we dont' know that "today is the day" with antags. the ship getting attacked by pirates, a traitor among the crew gunning down the captain, these are wild things our characters have very likely not experienced, as from their IC perspective. every day has been mundane. This allows us to have these moments, and we should see away missions the same IC. the Horizon does these, it salvages wrecks, investigates things, and communicates and trades with other ships.. its all been mundane and safe, so why is today any different? Its not disregarding self-preservation because our characters should not be entering into the round with the belief and idea "Its rage cage time". and well.. what if it is an ambush, what if there is a hostile creature? that's what the fine folks in sec are payed to handle. Hanger techs, miners, ops supports the crew with supplies. when we're dealing with odyssey this actually becomes a thing. Let them go down Science investigates things, documents critters, answers questions? Perfect, they should go Service keeps the crew fed, and their facilities clean and cared for. We all gotta eat, and I'd rather not eat MRE's if I can get a meal hot and ready from a field canteen Engineering builds bases, stabilizes wrecks, affects entry into places. they should be down there setting up a base for the crew to occupy Security protects the crew. It is not a kill team, they're not soldiers, your right! but its their job to keep the xenofauna from munching on the supply guys leg. Medical keeps the above people alive if harmed If I am the Captain, I dont know that THIS away mission is the one thats gonna be a blood bath, I dont know this mission is gonna have the thing among the survivors who tries to infiltrate our camp and eat people. I know I need to deploy an away team, I know I have a mission parameter. So I'm gonna send the people down there, then the needed people to support those people. Build a base, have security secure a section of a wreck, or a village, or have engineering whole sale build a compound or outpost. These challenges of "Xenofauna" or "Maybe a guy in the woods with a gun" is an obsticle the crew work together to overcome, building walls and spotlights, security securing entry ways, and having the facilities to manage an emergency. I mean what if the Xenofauna grabs a guy? we need a medical team on the ground to help him dont we? which needs engineers to build it, a supply team to equip it, and so on. And on "why would a civilian XYZ go" because its their job, they signed up for this, they get paid to do this, they're not office workers they're crewman on a deep space exploration vessel. They have implicitly signed up for that risk, and likely have had a 20-minute PowerPoint saying "don't wander off alone on an alien world" at some point in their career So what if it escalates? it gets dicey, there is a monster, there are pirates, there's a bomb? Well shit maybe we need to lock down the base! maybe we need to step up patrols or act as a team, or worst comes to worst? we need to evacuate personal. All of these things are conflict and are fun. I would rather playing as a surgeon, or a hanger tech, or an engineer. Go down to the planet, be involved and stay around the base, and be evacuated when it turns to hell. I'd rather as a player risk dying if that spooky shape shifting monster escaped from the lab gets into the base, than just sit in the bar on the horizon hearing the cool stuff im missing out on. We should not Optimize our way out of fun. Is sending the gaggle of people to build a base the most "optimal" way of handling most odysseys? not at all, but its fun, and I want to have fun.

I share this sentiment. Security in expeditions is tasked with keeping the crew safe, and the non-emergency crew in a hostile situation would presumably be staying on or adjacent to the Intrepid. If security has the situation under control and the Intrepid is secure, I don't see a reason for non-emergency crew to not be allowed to stick on the Intrepid occupying themselves with assorted busywork. If security doesn't have the situation under control and the Intrepid isn't secure, I assume the entire crew would be in the process of evacuation anyways? The priority is to allow participation. I don't expect all of the crew to be at the very forefront of the scenario and I certainly don't want to put pressure on storytellers and command to find a bespoke spot for absolutely everyone - just being able to reliably be permitted to leave on the expedition at all and find something to do independently is plenty for me. Otherwise, I can parrot this. For a note, I made mention of administrative action here rather than ahelping it in the round exactly because Odyssey is such a new gamemode and the rules really aren't written yet. It would've been wildly unfair to try to pin that on the particular players in that round because there seriously just isn't a consensus on this topic right now, a precedent needs to be set in order to be broken.

Ministry of Research Announces Development of Anti-Meteor System 20.12.2466 A joint report from the Orbital Fleet and corporate liaisons revealed that meteors have become problematic in the ongoing construction of the Bluespace Gate. Announced in 2465, the gate is being built to link S'rand'marr with Tau Ceti. When finished, it will bring great prosperity to Adhomai. However, due to still unknown reasons, the construction site is being subject to heavy meteor strikes. The structure of the gate was damaged on multiple occasions. Ships bringing crew and resources were also hit. The Tomorrow's Gate station staff are now trying to find the cause, some theorize it might be caused by some anomaly from Krisha. Some extra telescopes and sensors were also shipped to the facility. Minister of Technology Zhuldyz Hadii announced that the Ministry of Research is currently working with the Orbital Fleet to develop an advanced anti-meteor system. The current plan is to adapt a copy of the Aparhatchyk to control weapons capable of intercepting the rocks. It is being debated if stationary platforms or ships are the best alternative. Party Secretary Yakiv Hadii urged the Ministry of Research to develop and deploy the system as soon as possible. He further argued that finishing the gate should be a priority for the People's Republic. Chief Naval Commander Samirro Qarrarhaz ordered some Icelance ships to help with the defense of the construction site. The Tomorrow's Gate station is also preparing a small expedition to the rim of S'rand'marr to further collect data on the source of the asteroids.

It is intrinsically hard to involve departments or roles such as Hangar Technician, Service, and Science roles, as these are severely lacking from a mechanical standpoint with what they're able to contribute, compared to the usual suspects. We can resolve any server culture problems with the game-mode easily, but those are informed by incentives presented through gameplay. The ship generally doesn't need dedicated logisticians. Most departments have everything they need and can throw and drag whatever crap they want brought down in a single crate. Science is science. A lot of us in science say no to expeditions simply because we're just going to stand around bored for most of it, unable to contribute in a way that other departments can't do themselves. I think it isn't a bad idea to bring a chef down for catering, especially since people are running about a lot more, but it's harder to justify something like a bartender, or, librarian. Not to say that it's impossible to involve service, but not every Odyssey round can be about inviting VIP's aboard and catering for them. We've been asking for ways to involve these departments for in-round narratives ever since I started playing five years ago. It's probably been this way long before that. What we're seeing now is just a continuation of long-standing issues that have been set aside for other projects, because of a lack of interest or direction. That being said, I think we can mitigate some of these problems through the structure of Odyssey rounds themselves. Right now, there's only one plot, an A plot, which involves everyone packing into the intrepid and leaving the ship barren. I think, especially for lower intensity canon rounds, storytellers should attempt to craft a B plot for those who remain shipside. I'm not sure how many actors story-tellers get, but they could probably feed directives to third party ships to interact with the Horizon. Or to have the Horizon and the Third party ships interact with other elements of the overmap while the Odyssey mission is underway.

Thank you

It's not a black-and-white situation - I don't think anyone in this thread is saying, "Everyone on the ship MUST be sent down, no questions asked, no matter how dangerous the situation is!" I think it's more along the lines of, "Any player who wishes to participate should be given the chance to go on the mission." There will of course be instances where things get too dangerous for this to make sense, but to quote Mr. Popper... All in all, I can't speak for other people, but I'd rather chill by the Intrepid chatting with a few other crew members while we do some unimportant busywork, than to get barred completely from going on the away mission and left to AFK on an empty Horizon.

If Odyssey is going to be a successful gamemode then this false dichotomy between "civilians" that sit around being helpless and elite jobs that hog all the fun needs to go because, while you still have a round if you're uninvolved in a secret gimmick, there is usually no one to roleplay with in Odyssey when you're segregated from most of the crew. Roleplay-wise, what makes a Security Officer, Engineer, or Paramedic that much more important than a line cook or Hangar Technician? They aren't superheroes trained for the high stakes situations that occur in non-canon rounds, they're normal people normally tasked with serving the crew of a normal ship; a Zeng-Hu research outpost infested with GMO abominations is just as much a fish out of water situation for a security guard as a line cook. Paramedics are EMT, not combat medics. Engineers keep the ship running, they're not combat engineers. Security Officers aren't badass commandos, they're goons that bwoink troublemakers and protect the crew. So bring crew for them to protect! Only bringing the people who are mechanically useful when there's room for Cooks or Hangar Technicians because "we have MREs" or "I can move all the crates" disregards roleplay in favor of getting to the shooty action as fast as possible. I don't even consider good involvement as non-sec to be picking up a gun and mowing people down, I just want to be able to visit the map everyone is at and roleplay with the given scenario. In defense of Command, there are definitely Odysseys which escalate to where it's fair to evacuate non-combatants. It's also excessive to talk about admin action when Odyssey is so experimental and there are no hard rules for it yet. Ideally, Storytellers should be discouraged from starting with the intensity cranked up to 100 or giving an opening announcement where non-sec aren't welcome. Not to disrespect the regular Storytellers because you guys do a great job and I can't even recall this happening, but if an Odyssey is so high intensity that it opens with "WAR: IT'S WAR DOWN HERE, ONLY SEND SEC AND MED" then that's just bad escalation. The Odyssey that provoked this suggestion didn't seem to be this; to my knowledge Command was using reports of a nuclear device to justify excluding the "civilians" even though the action was only occurring deep within the map. Engineering even made an extravagant FOB for Service to staff right beside the landing zone, so it's not like they would be in excessive danger. Most Odyssey maps are like this where there's a large safe zone around the Intrepid. Also bear in mind: the nuke is prebuilt into that map. Should non-sec and non-med just be barred from ever seeing that Odyssey because there's a nuke? That's ridiculous. TL;DR: sec, med, and eng's mechanical utility shouldn't be mistaken for them being the main characters; they're realistically just as unprepared for high intensity rounds as everyone else. There are points of escalation where it's reasonable to evac non-essential crew or stop sending them down as others have said, but an Odyssey shouldn't start and end that way. Maybe that could be a new escalation rule idk. Also cut Command and storytellers some slack it's a new gamemode 💋💋

Threatening Command Players with harsh punishments, especially WL strips, is very reminiscent of how people talked about Antagonists not so long ago. "You need to involve everyone in your gimmick, not just a few people" was something that was bashed into the community's head regarding antagonists for ages. Alongside the fact that any time an Antagonist laid a hand on anyone, they'd always get a "Hey, got a minute?" from a staff member and would be interrogated for their rational in killing them. It was after this period that Antagonist player counts cratered to what they are today. Secondly, just as it was when antagonists were our main shake ups, it was expected that if you wanted to have reliable and consistent interactions with Antagonists, you should join up as Command, Security, or Medical. Engineering, Service, Science, and Operations were your choices if you wanted better odds of not being dragged into antagonist actions. I'd argue that the same principle will still apply to Odysseys. If an Odyssey is a war zone (and let's be honest, most Odyssey's will be because violence is engaging and easy to set up) then Command have very little reason to send non-combat or non-combat support staff down to the Odyssey Area. I think saying "putting IC aside for OOC fun" is nonsense, since we're a HRP server. A HRP server whose community has been adamantly against the militarization of the Horizon. Now that we've arrived at this point and the calmer, civilian nature of the Horizon has been reinforced, it seems that the same people who argued against militarization are now going, "Nope, roles don't matter. Anyone should be sent into danger so long as they ask." No. Of all the arguments in the thread, I think this one is the most egregious. For years, it has been community policy to treat non-canon rounds as if they were canon up until the round ended. You could not act irrationally or out of character just because you knew it was a non-canon round. You couldn't charge a traitor with a butcher knife as a chef, you couldn't send unarmed doctors to bullet shield for you, you couldn't do any number of things that would be considered insane or dramatically out of character just because it was a non-canon round. Sending Bartenders, Janitors and Cooks into potentially dangerous situations for 0 reason would count in this category. We are Roleplaying, yes, but this isn't a little D&D group with 6 players max. Aurora regularly hits 30 and 40 active players on highpop. While remaining within the bounds of policies that have existed for years Command players are obligated to make reasonable, rational, and informed decisions. Be it when they are negotiating with terrorist mercs, insane traitors, or deciding how to deal with Odyssey missions. Within those binds, Command can't feasibly be expected to send every person on the Horizon on the Intrepid. I understand it is the purpose of the thread to accomplish this very thing, but until we get a red name to come in here and put their foot down on expectations, acting so harshly against Command Players is unfair. I think it is fundamentally ridiculous to threaten Command Players who are trying to act rationally in the setting of a High-Roleplay Server. If this sort of policy became common place with Odysseys, what happened to our Antagonist Player Population is going to happen to our Command Player Population as well.

Perhaps taking an aggressive stance against the people you expect to be guiding the round and showing initiative, as you say, is as unhelpful and inflammatory as when it is is directed at antag players who fail to meet the bar. It's certainly easy for a post like this to be taken as hostile to the reader, and I certainly took it that way being a command main despite not considering myself to have any of the flaws you describe; a step back was required on my part for a more level-headed reply. I personally think that service signs a contract when signing up for the round that there's a good chance you won't interact with whatever the antag gimmick is beyond feeling its aftershocks, and that's something you know going in if you play a low responsibility role like service. Sure, there are traitors sometimes or events that manage to get everyone involved directly - but these aren't a quality that can be expected all the time not because no one can be bothered to try that hard all the time but because not every scenario that should occur can occur in an environment where every department is notably involved. Division of role responsibility doesn't just go with what you have to do, it's also what you get to do - security is heavily scrutinized because they generally get to do the most. Command in this environment is acting responsibly when faced with these Odyssey problems; ICly, they not only have to worry about what is a sensible response for the situation logically but further whether their corporate masters (who are very, very real in the context of CCIA) will approve of their decisionmaking should it come to it. OOCly, they're not only in a role quite visible to staff and other players who may not always have nice words, they're also sometimes fending off people neglecting their characterization for the desire to get involved in whatever's happening in the round at the expense of everyone else's sense of disbelief. Honestly, I get it. It's a videogame, you want to play the exciting part - I literally do not blame you for that specific instinct at all. At the same time, I don't play engineering expecting to have to shoot the mercs and I wouldn't play security hoping to sit around and do fuck all while someone else shoots the mercs. All of that long-winded paragraph to say that Command's actions are on aggregate a product of their situation and blaming them (with harsh punishment threats no less) is less useful as they were placed in a situation with limited ability to make good decisions. For the command who are genuinely good but doing the sort of thing mentioned in the post, perhaps suggestions should be directed to the storyteller to make events that can more reasonably involve service and even give them carveouts (e.g "set up a field kitchen for follow on responders!"). For the command who are bad and rejecting your attempts to go even when you would be justified IC, I am very confident that that would already be seen as a valid complaint by staff without any further adjustments to policy. Using this post as a proxy for the rest of the thread's point since it expresses overall sentiment: yes, sometimes it is easy to bend softly and get a lot more people involved. I've done it. On the other hand, there are scenarios where the suspension of disbelief - something essential to an RP environment mind you - is completely shattered by sending the janitor to the Klendathu Drop. It's really not as simple as it is made out to be when you conflate the two situations; sometimes you have well-meaning people who can reasonably be sent by a superior who doesn't care that much or simply needs bodies, sometimes the people who want to come are completely disregarding their own characterization to volunteer in the first place and would negatively affect everyone else. If people want evidence of this point, I point to Orchard Moon's boarding volunteers going on a boarding mission to a shuttle they were told was depressurized in capri shorts. Realism seems to be a boogeyman point for some reason, perhaps because of its association with hard-scifi and poking holes in the setting's lore - but you do need to have some realism in the setting, and when you phrase that as "internal consistency" or "maintaining the suspension of disbelief", I think far fewer people would argue. As an aside, while I don't quote this in an attempt to direct it at anyone I have replied to or even levy it as an accusation at anyone in the thread specifically, I do find this a very salient point and it puts in to words a vague sentiment I have had difficulty expressing previously.

BYOND Key: Webitan Total Ban Length: Appears to be permanent Banning staff member's Key: @Noble Row Reason of Ban: Greytiding Reason for Appeal: I dont remember exactly what I did, I think I was tidying around and breaking into places. It is against the rules and I am sorry for doing it, I was fooling around and shouldnt have done that. I was told to appeal several months later and it has been. I Promise to not do it again and play more HRP. Also Merry Christmas

Sorry, but no, people are warned/noted when they disregard self-preservation even if they have a good reason to do so, going to a possible ambush, to be swarmed by xenofauna or in the hands of pirates because apparently the crew is bulimic and can't wait the additional 10 minutes it would take to get back on the ship (not to mention you can just send the food down from it) isn't gonna cut it. People wanted, outcried, the civilian feeling/setting up to the moment it became inconvenient to having fun (as if it wasn't already before) and now are trying to circumvent the logical consequence of that, wanting to have the cake and eat it too

This is a very serious topic, which is exactly why easing off on the language isn't something we should do. This is a significant issue, and it should be treated as a whitelist one because command has all the tools and means to involve overlooked departments. They don't either because they do the bare possible minimum, harken back to 'realism' as a guiding principle, or are in some other way anemic in their leadership. The same way we treat stonewalling antags harshly and as an administrative concern (afterall, it is disrupting the flow of the round, ruining it for not just the antag but those engaged with them), we should be treating this issue with a greater degree of concern because stonewalling departments is far, far, far worse. When someone stonewalls an antag with confirmation faxes, or 'realism's them to a stand-still where they question their every motive and reason and demand proof and any other number of actionable behaviour, they are sapping away fun from the antag, and those directly around them. Not cool. When someone stonewalls an entire department, they don't just sap enjoyment from it, they choke the entire department. No one wants to be cucked to an empty ship with at most 3-5 characters some of whom are too busy commanding the off-team to engage with you. Why would you play service, or operations, if it's possible for some anemic command member incapable or unwilling to figure out how to include you to simply say 'It's too dangerous! ;)' This is how you kill the drive of players to play departments. This is really, REALLY bad. And much like how we treat stonewalling antags as a whitelist issue, so should we this. As a command member, people look up to you for guidance, leadership... Command. What possible excuse could there be for someone who chose to play that role to act anemic, and do the bare-minimum? You should be expected to show initiative, to involve as many people as possible, that's the whole point of fucking command to begin with.

Honestly, I'm not sure we need an SoP for away missions. By their nature the missions are different round to round. Anything beyond * You need to send a team *Dont send the bare minimum Will become a barrier to RP imo. We dont need moments of bickering over SoP minuta or worse "We can't go/can't go yet as we haven't ticked this box" and on why is the cook going down? well we gotta eat don't we? just let people come up with their justification, flimsy as it may be, to be down there

Article 6 of the Megacorporate Sports Competition Arc Halfway Through The 2466 BMMSC: The Best Bits So Far The Biesel Megacorporate Multi-Sports Competition has reached its halfway point, and will now be breaking for holiday celebrations. Here are the best parts so far! Biesellite Triathlon - Defending winner NanoTrasen Corporation beaten by Private Military Contracting Group’s Mahkrik K’Bagniir. On Friday, Mahkrik K’Bagniir cemented himself as a champion in the Biesellite Triathlon event, winning the race for the Private Military Contracting Group and propelling the megacorporation towards their first #1 position, unseating the 2-time defending winner NanoTrasen Corporation. The Biesellite Triathlon is one of the most popular sports of the Biesel Megacorporate Multi-Sports Competition, encapsulating some of the planet’s most daring hobbies: mountain biking and rock climbing in the planet’s vast mountainscapes, and shooting. This victory for the Private Military Contracting Group was hard-earned for the newcomer megacorporation. ‘We trained extremely hard to win this one; the company is very, very happy – the Kazarrhaldiye Operations Group more so, this I am sure. So well earned for Mahkrik K’Bagniir, all my commendations to them and the coaches,’ said Farashuu Nyamweya to the press on behalf of the Private Military Contracting Group. Figure Skating – Zeng-Hu Pharmaceutical (Mélanie Roquevert)’s shocking Figure Skating jump. On Sunday, the former Idris Incorporated winner of the 2458’s figure skating event, Mélanie Roquevert, won her second 1st place position – this time for Zeng-Hu Pharmaceuticals – and became the first athlete to perform a hextuple salchow jump during a competition. With under 10 seconds left on the clock and 34.63 points behind Zavodskoi Interstellar’s Adam Honeywell, the Belle Côtan figure skater built up enough momentum to perform a combination of two quadruple flips leading into a powerful hextuple salchow jump, together scoring a 35.28 points and the crowd’s applause for a total of 203.62 points. In a Chirper post before the skating event, Mélanie Roquevert revealed a new pair of cybernetic-integrated ice skates intended for use at the event: After the event, Mélanie Roquevert had this to say, 'With Zeng-Hu Pharmaceuticals, the limits can be pushed and can be broken. I'm excited to see other skaters work up to performing similar hextuple jumps as I have - they are possible now.' Exhibition: Basketball – Flagsdale Hornets play a friendly basketball game against Ports-Ville Petrels. Today, to mark the end of the first half of the Biesel Megacorporate Multi-Sports Competition, a friendly basketball game was played between the Flagsdale Hornets and Portage Petrels for BMMSC Premium Ticket holders. The vaurca-favourite basketball team is well-known throughout Mendell City and consistently plays well in local competitions; likewise, the Portage Petrels are the #1 local basketball team in Ports-Ville. Having won three back-to-back games, the Portage Petrels confidently went into the friendly match, however a brief injury scare tested the team’s resolve. This did not stop the Portage Petrels leading with 10 points up until the final 3 minutes of the game, where the Flagsdale Hornets stole a win that had fans on the edge of their seats.

Election Date Announced! Article 5 of WINNER TAKES ALL: The '67 Solarian Federal Elections NEW YORK CITY, EARTH — Earlier today (GST) the provisional government announced an official date for the Solarian 2467 general federal election. Elections are, assuming no delays, to take place on 27 February, with all votes for prime minister expected to be counted by either 28 February or 1 March (Earth Standard Time). Senatorial elections may take longer. Most senatorial seats are up for election due to delays experienced during the civil war. Absentee voting is to be determined on a planet-by-planet basis. A government spokesperson contacted by the SANN advised voters to contact the Department of the Interior, if in the Alliance, or Department of State, if abroad, for more information. Further Reading: SFP Holds Rally on San Colette Phoron Cleanup on D’Anzin Expected to Take Five Years People of the Spur: The Assunzionii