MO_oNyMan

I think you're mixing IRs The first IR (Sandavol) that resulted in a reprimand wasn't related to antags and i don't think there are any security radio logs that would play against me in that situation. If you mean the second IR (Gonzales) then even aside from the fact that there was confusion about what was related to antags and what wasn't, the closure notice goes on about me threatening people with the taser and how CSIs shouldn't carry tasers. I haven't touched a taser the entire shift, i didn't threaten anyone with it. Moreover under false accusations i recieved not an equivalent of an admin note (which would've been pretty bad as is) but almost a week long character ban. Which considering the lack of solid proof is pretty appalling. I have a very specific issue that seems to be reoccuring. When i do everything correctly (reporting a crime, storing contraband etc.) but still get punished by CCIA for it, what do i do? The punishment can vary up to a character ban (which is what mods do) but mods can get to conclusive results by looking at logs which are pretty solid. CCIA can only read interviews and based on that more often than not their judgement does not follow the actual events in question. So why are character bans a viable option? Leave them with the reprimands if they don't have means of obtaining solid proof. Otherwise people will be losing characters on arbitrary basis regardless of whether their play in the moment was correct or not. And when you're playing, doing your job and then suddenly you're being told that you can't play your character anymore because someone said you did something bad, that does not help the atmosphere of the game one bit.

I've always wondered why are unwhitelisted players allowed authority over the captains. This fixes it and also allows to keep emergency response forces staffed with less equipped dudes with no authority. +1

How to explain accusations of crime that never happened then? The statistical probability of CCIA making charges up from thin air is way too high to write it off as a reasonable human factor of making a mistake. Two counts of spoofed charges through the course of two consecutive IRs in the span of less than a months. How can anyone resort to CCIA as a mean to adress IC problems knowing that there's about 50% chance of them going into completely wrong directions and either not punishing someone who actually did something wrong or punishing someone who didn't? How are people supposed to act and play knowing that even if they do everything correctly they can loose their characters to the blatant disregard towards the lack of evidence?

You stop trying after they've started hitting you because you get hit badly. Autohit with a manual hit would indeed hit you badly

uhh, from the IC perspective trying to control the opponents weapon in the scuffle of a fight (which disarm basically is) is not something surreal that never happens. In fact most fights do that. While disarm runing melee weapon advantage is a sort of a problem i think putting a cooldown on it is not the best way to fix this. I would instead suggest giving the weapon holder a percent chance of getting in a free hit on a person that tries to disarm them (much like firearms are right now). So that having a weapon gave you a distinct advantage in a fight while also not always guaranteeing victory

i was under impression that CPR was vastly underpowered not actually helping people who are dead. Unless it recieves a buff to help with resuscitation i don\t see it causing rib fractures as a viable options as it would basically kill the feature

That's presuming security wasn't initially invited to deal with the threat. The active situation was handled, the aftermath was not and bodies and contraband needed to be stored properly. No medics stored the bodies in the morgue, no medics brought the raiders' contraband to security which is why i was forced to handle it myself. I'm not sure what "direct cleanup" was made but it sure wasn't connected to the raiders since even after deescalation to green everything remained in its place and i was the only one cleaning up. I managed to sort out two out of four bodies dealing with the aftermath of the incident (and noone including passing medics seemed to have any objections) yet when i was handling the remaining two it was deemed necesssary to make trespassing charges appear. As far as i remember code green was reinstated only in between second haul and the HoP's request to return equipment, which delayed the third haul slightly. While according to regulations head of staff can deny access to their department, that wasn't done. The bodies and contraband were still lying in medbay, noone informed security that the medbay is now off-limits and contraband and bodies of the intruders should stay in the hallways for some reason. Instead the first thing that was done was blocking the all-access elevator to prevent people getting out of sublevel. That's not denying access to medbay, that's denying the opportunity to leave which is the opposite. The raiders were not crew, were not insured by the company and were known terrorists so the only thing that could give medbay any sort of authority over them is the fact that they just so happened to die in there.

vision cones would be pretty neat. 180 degrees plus a tiny tad bit more for peripheral vision would be sufficient enough. As for combat it's really easy to use shift click to keep tabs on the opponent or even use alt+dir. Bision cone generally increases immersion and realism and introduces more options for gameplay without taking a huge toll on combat (since it's pretty easy to work around it and everyone stays in the same conditions). The only problem is the difficulty of implementation but i don't think we're in a rush generally +1

You didn't clean up. I was cleaning up for you. Picking up corpses and weapons immideately followed the fight, nobody had any problem with that. CSIs can do a lot of things but one thing they lack is psychic abilities. To convey your thoughts the corporation has given you the headset. If you let someone in and don't want them in anymore - use it. Breaking regulations is punishable and is not how you go about things. Even in a hypothetical scenario if security actually was trespassing. It's standard procedure

That’s somewhat not how it should work. You should still have reported the offender for this infraction and listed down your witnesses on this incident report regardless of letting sleeping dogs lie unknowingly whether they’re vicious or not. By doing so, you are able to give more than enough information for us to piece together to why did this happen. You’ve chose to take this path and sleeping dogs woke up and have bitten you. On the round directly following the round of the incident i was contacted by the SRVODeath in PMs about an IR filed against me. I told him that i was looking to file an IR myself and whether counter IRs were allowed. He replied the counter IRs are not a thing and that i'll have to just mention witnesses in the interview and he'll go through them. I had an extra witness, i sent him the name of the witness in PM, i mentioned the witness in and interview. So i did everything i could do, asked if i could do more, was assured that it's not needed and rolled with it. If i was actually supposed to file a counter IR then it was a case of miscommunication. I can say this without violating witness’s integrity. There were indeed testimonies against you on this. People have seen this occurred. As I review your testimony once more regarding this situation, you are the only person to have ever mentioned a small fight involving casualties and so you alone decided to call the shots and moved the bodies into Medical Bay’s morgue. By doing so, you have given the bodies over to Medical Department in which they’re responsible for this. So let me clarify, the investigation voided the antag incident that was the entire reason for me being let into medbay and allocating bodies? And that's why trespassing is considered legit? Because medics calling security to medbay never happened? That’s not the issue. The issue is, you are a Crime Scene Investigator which means you are part of Security Department. According to testimonies, as a member of Security Department, you threatened an Emergency Technician Sherer. This is a reminder that you should not threatening crew members. Security Department is there to ensure the safety of crew members, not to attack your own crew members. Security positions are also expected to have high tolerance with rude crew members and hold it in. None of the threats (both from paramedic and myself) went over the line of regulation breach on "threat of death or serious injury". Considering recent circumstances (both armed raid which was apparently voided without droping an IR for some reason and me being locked down for a while and then paramedic appearing to see if being a dick can maybe solve the trespassing problem) the threats or any frustration really are ICly justified. I would consider keeping unphased if i was playing an IPC for example, but i'm playing a human that can become upset. And there were well over sufficient amount of severe reasons to be upset with medics going petty yet again. Some of them were left out so what exactly i'm expected to do in antag rounds? Acting like there wasn't ever an antag the moment it leaves my sight? There are testimonies against you saying this happened. Even in the court, testimonies ARE evidences. We do not investigate throughout OOC logs to discover whether you really did have that taser weapon as Eve said, the court do not have the capabilities to hold attack log whether person X hit person Y. Testimonies are used as supportive evidence. If person x says that person y threatened them with a taser then it's ground for reasonable suspicion. Then let's ask questions regarding the taser: does person x own a taser? Is there any pictures of them holding a taser? Where are prints of that person on the taser? In criminalistics every action leaves a reflection (that is the subject of study). If you shoot someone the reflections would be the bullet hole, the casing, the powder on your hands and on the gun, the damages done by the bullet etc. If something is true (which accusation of carrying a taser wasn't) there must be a reflection of it presented as tangible evidence to give the accusation any sort of weight. If you can't present it (which CCIA frequently can't) then it's just a suspicion and can't be used to dispense punishment. The haphazard rush for punishment with insufficient evidence is the problem here. Saying it's not because everything works fine is ridiculous because the very reason for this complaint being filed is me being accused of something i've never done twice in a span of a month. The solution i'm suggesting is either don't rush for decisions when all you have is a guy's testimony (which would considerably lower the CCIA punishments) or employ better means of obtaining tangible evidence (which would be somewhat difficult to set up unless you're using evidence gathered with the help of security/IAA on-shift). as with previous point. It doesn't matter how long do you spend on your investigation. If you don't have enough evidence, you don't have enough evidence. Using only radio logs and testimonies is not a reliable way to make a correct decision. Imagine piecing up a puzzle but 3/4 of the pieces are missing. You just can't reliably tell what on the puzzle most of the time. No matter how long do you look at it, you'll just think yourself into a corner and then slap your best guess. And piecing puzzles with only 1/4 of pieces would be completely fine by me, but the success or failure of this process can result in a player losing a character.

There seems to be a misunderstanding on what is to be considered "valid knowledge". A guy saying "He did wrong, i swear to god" is not "valid knowledge" Matching or unmatching testimonies and using this alone to make a decision show extremely poor results as can be seen in presented cases where crimes just appeared out of thin air. Short of direct confessions conversation itself is not a mean of proving guilt anywhere in the world. What is done through conversation (interview, interrogation) is search for further leads to actual solid evidence. Again if you were able to reliably use an idle chat to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt there wouldn't be an issue. When you're out of nowhere being accused of something you haven't done that's where the lack of evidence is located. A thing that did not happen can not be reliably proven due to who would have thought the lack of evidence. And despite the fact that actions my character is being accused of never happened (and therefore can not be proven) i heard nothing about the lack of evidence (as you'd expect and as you said there would be). No evidence - no crime. There's your justification Except courts do "check attack logs". Forensic science is an entire field based around "checking attack logs" IRL. We have some representation of it on the station btw. And if courts can't prove the suspect did X they don't charge them for X. And CCIA shouldn't either. Why do they do it is the question that is the cornerstone of the problem here Wrong. There actually is plenty of evidence that make one side's testimony more credible than the other's, much like how real investigation works, if one has lied before, their credibility drops significantly You don't seem to understand how a real investigation works. You talk to people involved, you look for evidence, you try for confession. If all failed you drop the investigation. I don't know how law enforcement from where you are from works but going by "oh so he lied before he's therefore guilty" is not how things are generally done Oh man, i'm so glad CCIA has this great method that is based on matching testimonies. Surely I can be completely calm knowing they will not get themselves into a dead-end following this method and start accusing people of things they didn't do with at least 90% probability? Oh wait, the method doesn't actually work and i have two counts of proof in a span of a month. Good thing i established that fact at the beginning of the thread otherwise someone would have to explain to me how to match testimonies from an IR with only two people involved.

talking to witnesses and making the decision based on whether you feel like you trust this particular dude over that particular dude is not a sufficient evidence to conclude an investigation in any shape or form. People lie, you can't tell the difference. If you could there wouldn't be a problem but you can't. And apart from this unstable source of information CCIA has absolutely zero means of obtaining any sort of solid evidence that would make them actually fit for an investigation As much as you can't claim that your IC lack of evidence can be used to stick tangible charges So they spoke to people involved and based on their accounts which may or may not be true arbitrarily decided to punish me? Is that your understanding of solid evidence? What actual evidence they have to deem one side more credible than the other? The answer is none. Also proves that you just really want the CCIA to use meta knowledge so your characters won't be punished in the future. The fact that i wish for any and all CCIA actions on my characters removed there proves that i really just want the CCIA to use any solid evidence that could actually prove the guilt or innocence of people involved. Which is currently not the case.

The tonality of the notices doesn't bother me as much as the context in which they are given. The context being false accusations. I could understand dismissiveness in the case of charges being completely valid with solid proof backing them up. However when the subject of the discussions is something that was quiet literally made up by the investigators that's where i start getting sceptical The fact that notes stick to a player is the major part of the problem. The investigation process is not nearly accurate enough to justify sticking notes to a player that may or may not influence further staff decisions. The cases presented highlight it pretty well. If the mistake probability is that high either employ better means of uncovering facts to lower it or don't take investigations at all. Whether the resolution to the incident is chosen to be a realitic one or a an attempt to moderate undesirable behaviour, charging a character for a non-existant crime is a poor choice of means to carry it out. If the issue with miscommunication is acknowledged i'd consider it resolved, hoping such things will be handled more gracefully in the future

If the organisation the entire purpose of which is to investigate certain incident is not equipped to properly investigate such incidents what exactly is the reason for its existence? If you don't have any means whatsoever to deal with misinformation you might as well just flip a coin on an incident report to determine the result. And you don't need a whitelisted person to flip a coin. Not to mention flipping a coin is not something that is generally considered a distinctive proof of guilt That's what i was told to do, that's what i'm doing. Refer to exhibit e of the initial thread.

BYOND Key: MO_oNyMan Staff BYOND Key: The list includes but is not limited to Synonno, UnknownMurderer, SRVODeath Game ID: Reason for complaint: Multiple incidents stack up to lead to this complaint. I will be listing them in chronological order Act 1 Act 2 Act 3 Finale Evidence/logs/etc: Exhibit A: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=11084 Exhibit B: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=11217 Exhibit C: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=11210 Exhibit D: https://imgur.com/a/Hs1FR53 Exhibit F: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=11303 Exhibit E: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=11301 Additional remarks: The list of staff involved is incomplete since i'm not exactly sure who was involved in misjudging incident reports in question

the concept itself is fine short for some balance tweaks as stated above However i worry about the flavour. It's a sci-fi, actual devils seem slightly out of place. Yes, we have wizards and cult but cult has at least some logic to it and wizard i wish was removed completely. So to fix this one i'd suggest giving it some explanation. You can retain the mysticism and magic stuff but make it logical (good example: you can realise that blood runes have actual power to them. Bad example: you can't realise the robes give wizard powers). So that regular crew could come up with semi scientific explanation to his powers which would work. I like the pacifist theme of it, but to offset the antaggery you'd have to encourage people to work with the devil and his stuff. Which is currently impossible due to self-antagging rules. You could allow self-antagging once people sign the contract but why would i sign the weird questionable contract with a weird questionable dude. Maybe give him some que (like an ability to give people a message "You feel free from corporate slavery" or something like that). I would also suggest giving him access to all records including exploitable info to be able to leverage people more

Appealing Personnel: Alan Grimm Specific Incident: Handling the code red situation and its aftermath in medbay Action taken as a result: 5 day suspension, retraining Action contested: 5 day suspension, retraining Reasoning for contest: As can be found from witness testimony, actions taken as a result of armed attack on the station were warranted by the lack of security personnel aboard the station and approved by station intelligence and medical personnel. After the main threat was eliminated and four intruders were killed in action by security staff, their posessions and bodies were required to be allocated in the station morgues and evidence storage for possible further investigation. At no point in between initial request to eliminate the armed threat in medbay and the incident in question was the decision to barr security from medbay communicated to any security personnel. Up until the moment the perpetrator (CMO Gonzales) decided to break regulations by illegally holding two security members. Allegations of violence and unprofessionalism are ridiculous and have no ground behind them. Charges requested were warranted as CMO has no authority to detain crew against their will. If he wanted to withhold weapons left over by the killed intruders for personal use and detain officers on bogus charges he should've stated so and held a vote inbetween command staff to take a captain-level decision to circumvent regulations in an emergency situations as stated in station directives and standard operating procol of the station. This was not done and his actions therefore not only breach the regulations security members but also endangered the crew in the case of the four deceased intruders not being the only armed threat on the station which would result in casualties since most of the security department resources would've been tied up in an unlawful detainment attempt. Not only that but he also coerced medbay staff to refuse to cooperate with on-station investigation, effectively sabotaging it (which he admits to in his signed incident report), which goes against the exepctations of the crew to take steps towards resolving the reported issue during the course of the shift. Additional notes: Decision to resort to criminal methods instead of communicating and following standard procedure is unworthy of trust the crew puts in a command staff representative. CMO Gonzales failed to uphold the expectations placed on him by his position, breaking regulations on multiple occasions and hindering efforts of security staff in an emergency situation. I'm not even going to adress allegations of threatening to use taser equipment (multiple witnesses can attest that at no point during the shift was i carrying taser equipment on my person) and implications of "reminding that EMT Scherer is unlikely to win a CQC fight" after she threatened to choke me being considered a "violence of threat" on my part which is laughable in and of itself.

If that's the only problem you see with defibs then it's easily fixable with a device (some sort of a coroner's analyzer) that when used on a deceased crewmember shows how long has he been dead (how much time do you have left until the brain activity fades and defibs will no longer work). This way a dead body that is found gets scanned with this device and either defibbed and hauled to medbay or pronounced dead and left where it is for security to do their job. Devices can be standard issue to paramedics and forensic techs

Me like. Anything that makes existing jobs more in-depth is good. And we already have drug interactions with alcohol (i think?). Diving into that direction would be a step towards immersion and realism. My only concern is that of sideffects. As garn said medbay can be a slaughter house as is. Getting paralyzed for half a round because of a retarded surgeon is sub-optimal imo. if you're going to severely handicap people for mixing drugs, think about how can this be made interactive, so that they wouldn't feel left out despite not being able to do anything active

sweet. I'm not sure what is the problem with poison. Who tf licks their lips while normally talking? Just go through the alphabet and see on which letters your tongue contacts with your lips. The answer is on none of them. Maximum that you'd be forced to do is talk a little funny to prevent lip-teeth contact

yeeeah boi. Trading a low chance of scattering for clips would be nice. It does however concern me that lasers basically lose their main distinction from ballistics (firing through windows reliably). Introducing this on its own would make them unusable

Appealing Personnel: Alan Grimm Specific Incident: Requesting an arrest warrant for sabotage after a medical doctor decided to argue about whether i need a warrant or not in order to requisition a body from the morgue instead of handing over the body which subsequently led to a red infraction investigation being dropped Action taken as a result: Reprimand Action contested: Reprimand Reasoning for contest: The reasoning behind the action taken was as follows "Medical staff are expected to reasonably accommodate security's requests for investigation material, unless they are otherwise occupied with more pressing matters. Given the status of the Medical Department during this shift and their workload, it is found that they did not negate access to the body out of defiance, but out of simply being busy.". However upon initial contact and request the medic was idle. Despite the medic allegedly being busy, his non-existant workload allowed him to request a search warrant after the body requisition request, spend some time listening to the explanation of a search warrant not being required, spend some time processing this explanation and coming up with a solution of trying to use a cadaver identity confirmation form for an obscure reason, printing the form, handing it to the investigator, listening to the explanation of what the form actually was and why wasn't it applicable, spending time to process the information, spending time to start skipping through forms again for a suitable one (which is not there). All of that until the radiation storm forced the crew into the maintanance tunnels only after which a patient preoccupying the medic and making him to busy to tend to the morgue arrived. The time spent idly chatting about what to do in the medical lobby was more than sufficient enough for a human to walk a fairly short distance to the tempomorgue and unlock two doors. It was instead wasted effectively killing an investigation. Medical staff failed to, using the CCIAA words "reasonably accomodate security's request for investigation material" despite not being "otherwise occupied with more pressing matters" and that is why the charges requested were warranted as seconded by the head of security chief who aproved the request. Additional notes: While i do agree that failure to submit evidence was not an act of defiance, the reason for it was poor familiarity with medical protocols. Which unlike being occupied with more pressing matters is not a sufficient enough reason to drop the charges

Why would you not get the body back if, as you claim, medical never fucks up that badly? Furthermore, the situation you envision ALSO perfectly describes the danger to medical personnel and the deceased player. Your comment could just as well read: "The issue is that when you have a dead crewmember and give the body to security you might not get it back ever." You won't get the body back not because medics don't want to give it to you for whatever reason. The issue of not getting the body is pretty one sided in this case. I have never ever in a year of playing seen a medic come to security for a body and be denied it unless it's held on a DNC order for a classified case by the HoS's or captain's personal decree. I see medics deny the body all the time on the other hand. There's no forward indication that performing an autopsy will aid in an investigation, and security will be running around trying to prevent deaths regardless. You could even reason that focusing manpower on getting the body and evidence and prioritizing the autopsy would slightly weaken the team's present ability to provide security, since any officer who's helping to orchestrate the postmortem investigation is an officer who isn't out there projecting power or responding to reports. Officers are not supposed to participate in the autopsy process and that's exactly why the policy is needed. As of now there's no way around the denial except involving multiple people incuding officers, wasting everyone's time on a problem that shouldn't even exist in the first place and taking up resources that could be put to use somewhere else As i said. The other way around scenario has never ever happened throught the span of my one year gameplay They are pretty equal in that sense Neither. If one did have that access there wouldn't have been a problem. The main conflict is always antags and security. Other people may participate in it but almost always as victims. Having the body lying in the morgue prevents security from catching up with antags and does absolutely nothing for any other player even if they wanted to do something about it. I'm fine with cloning being done first for OOC reasons. What i'm not fine with is having to go on an hour long quest to retrieve the body afterwards which is the problem policy on this matter is looking to fix the people are not expected to die at all. Looking at workplace accidents to determine whether it has foul play involved is a basic IRL practice. It isn't different for ss13 for neither IC nor OOC reasons The body by itself is not really a biohazard. The round goes for 2 hours which is not enough for a body to rot neither ICly nor OOCly, people are supposed to be healthy when they come on station and so on and so forth. Not the point. People in scrubs can touch the body after the scene is lifted all they want. What i want is for them to either deliver on an autopsy results or hand over the body when requested after a cloning attempt. Neither is being done consistently enough, almost nothing can be done about it, hence the suggestion. Again, communication is fine but it doesn't always work. "I would like to requsition the body of X for autopsy". "No". "Why?" "Because i said so." That's where communication ends and sufferings begin. When you are denied the body that is connected to a murder for no apparent reason and you can do absolutely nothing about it it's unsensical in both IC and OOC terms. Imagine if an officer asked a guy on a murder rampage to please go with him and after the guy refused he'd have to shrug and file an IR about it post shift.

Point by point I made this ruling, it is a first attempt at forming an IC standard regarding it. I do not believe medical or security has preference, however if security wants to investigate a crime there should be a form of communication between departments. Just because there is a body doesn't mean it's evidence. Also I've seen CSIs refuse to let medical to perform autopsies which shouldn't be the case either. Every death on station is by default suspicious. Whether or not the body becomes evidence in an opened case is determined by an investigator. While security can communicate their intent to investigate to medbay, medbay can tell them to fuck right off and they wouldn't be breaking any policies. So the only thing to do here is to go to a head of staff which may be caught up in some more important stuff than authorising a sabotage warrant for a medic withholding a body. It is overall ICly a gaping hole in station security protocols. Having it overlooked just to force security and medbay argue with each other is not a good enough reason to keep it that way. I am completely fine with medics doing the autopsy if only they delivered on it consistently. Autopsies is a part of investigation process that CSI prioritises as a part of his job. Medics on the other hand do not. MDs will always prioritise critical patients, surgeons doing surgery on living patients, residents and nurses helping out, psych doesn't have the qualification, CMO can't be bothered, viro is rarely played and is almost never bothered with cadavers etc. All of which leads to the autopsy being forgotten and investigation put on an indefinite hold. Moreover if there's a resonable suspicious autopsy may be sabotaged in medbay CSI should absolutely get the body. It's not about the general look-see of their equipment which is done on-scene. It's about autopsy which is a very important piece of investigation. You either take the body and do it youself (which is being rejected) or give it up for cloning attempt and risk losing the entire case because the body is going to be stuck in the tempomorgue Asking nicely is great and all but it's not the ultimate weapon. Command staff and security are not obliged to ask nicely when it comes to serious on-station matters. If a possible murder is not a serious on-station matter i don't know what is. It's not exactly chef serving you the wrong burger. If asking nicely fails for whatever reason and heads are preoccupied (as they often are) what you have to do now is you give up on a murder investigation (that can cause more deaths) and file an IR post-shift (which may not even go through if the person is an antag). It's overall an unrealistic negligence of safety policies and should be fixed. From a security standpoint, that's usually how I've seen things go. You follow a simple process to get the job done and convince whomever along the way that your way is the best way for everyone without needing to enforce it. Being charismatic sometimes goes further than laying down to people that you're the authority and they're to follow what you say rather than helping suggest to them that it's a good idea. I don't need to go further i just need the autopsy results. Which are sometimes outright impossible to acquire regardless of whether you're a cutie about it or not. While OOCly in theory both sides should understand what is the reason behind this cadaver juggling is in practice it's rarely the case. Which is why the absense of policy does not work Mechanically, from an OOC perspective it doesn't. From an IC perspective it very much might. I don't think i've ever seen either security or medical fuck up to the point where the procedures would be impossible. That is not the issue here. The issue is that when you start an investigation and give a piece of evidence to medical you might not get it back ever. It might be prefectly viable for autopsy but you wouldn't have a chance to perform it. On top of that failure to follow up on a murder investigation can lead to more deaths. From a company prespective it's much more profitable to slightly delay a cloning of one guy than lose several others. why wouldn't they do it immediately after they killed a guy? If they are a medic who didn't have time to cover up they can just straight up refuse to give you back the body. If head is preoccupied you're basically fucked. And it's depriving the conflict of one of the opposing sides. Can't be counteracted, can't be IRd.

Basically that. Two hours is several hours too little for any sort of coherent proper investigation. Having to spend half of that time arguing over who should take the body helps noone. You either kill your time trying to do everything the proper way and get nothing done, frustrating other security, HoS, detective and everyone involved in the investigation or you start cutting corners to make at least something done frustrating people that get collateral damage because of improper security procedures. It depends on whether you want to priotirize OOC or IC point of view. From an IC perspective security should absolutely get a first look. From an OOC perspective cloning doesn't mechanically fuck with evidence in any way and players should be allowed to get back into the round as soon as possible. I personally don't care which one is it as long as i don't have to spend 40 minutes standing in the lobby arguing with a nurse about whether or not i should get a warrant in order to retrieve the body. Very often giving a body to medical is as good as spacing it because there's about a 30% chance you will never ever see it again except via cameras lying in the tempomorgue. The lack of policy on the matter is a huge part of this problem