Skull132

Dismissal vote 2 from me. So subject's going to the graveyard. The subordinates of either department do not have critical information to share among one another. The average scientist has little duty related to discuss with a cargo technician or a miner, the same goes vice-versa. Their only surface for contact, really, is resource procurement and distribution. Which is the duty of the relevant heads to organize and manage. Or you can use request consoles, PDAs, whatever else.

Weird questions start emerging if you pursue this too far. Those along the lines of, "How far must security play along with the antagonist?" One should be careful not to stray into that territory, IMO. Since it ends up being forced.

Lemme pull this a step back. You're arguing nonsense, and here's why. Earlier you were fearing the slippery slope. To which my reply was that we're only intending to touch matters which are more egregious than the rest. Like NT cloaks, we have explained why we believe them to be egregious enough, ergo, off they go. I said this in my last two posts: that, at present, this is a singular removal due to the content being the most egregious under the given circumstance and exceeding what we consider "the line". And now you're again arguing over this specific PR? What sense is there to this? As for compromise. Allow me to give you perspective: There are Vaurca and Tajaran cloaks in-game, which are not slated for removal. And I know that Jackboot either has better sprites or has better sprites in the works for the human cloaks. However, since I don't necessarily do lore, I am going to wait for them to actually gather that stuff and submit more cloaks for issuance on the behalf of the other factions and whatever else. Meaning, this quandary will be solved at some point.

And this PR does nothing against this concept and idea. It is not a paradigm shift. To quote myself: At absolute best, you can argue this as applying potentially stricter guidelines on what gets to pass for NT wear. But see my argument of degrees about that. If I wanted to deal with NT fashion fully, I would myself initiate a full review of custom loadout. And yet I am not doing that. So go figure. Congratulations. You've not read my reasons for removing them. I advise you do, for I am done rephrasing myself. This fact is further highlighted by the following: My use of the term offensive was to describe their visual role in an outfit. A cloak is a predominate piece of clothing. It tends to gather a large amount of visual attention. Adds visual weight. Is offensive, is visually attention grabbing and aggressive. Because hey, out of the pieces of accessories issued by NT, they are. Again. This is NT clothing specifically. As you can see from my other replies, if other factions want to use them, then I honestly don't give a shit as long as they are a part of a somewhat coherent theme, like Dominia.

We can merge the current PR and redo them once you find better sprites. Easy. Yes, unfortunately most design decisions are stuck ultimately at the hand of myself and Arrow. And the occasional Jackboob. Though I do not understand what precedence you're referring to. The precedence of us realizing a mistake was made and a correction being issued? I'm pretty sure I needed to very loudly and clearly point out that, hey, this is actually something we do, back when the whole dev cycle debacle was going on half a year and more ago. And now it's a surprise and suddenly erroneous? Give me a break. This is business as usual, minus the shitfest over an ultimately minor issue.

As I stated a few times, this is a matter of degrees. Cloaks being a higher degree violation against this principle than say, different flavours of jumpsuit. So I do not believe your imagine slipper slope will manifest itself in any meaningful way. Not unless we choose to go with option Z, being to consolidate all of NT's clothing. But even then, variation would exist, because NT is a relatively massive corporation. But there'd be common traits to them.

Well, here's the question then. Why would you: someone who doesn't know anything about us and presumably holds no ill will towards us, lie as the first thing they do? And more specifically, why would you lie over a matter that we did not even touch, meaning you tried to actively mislead us. I hope you understand that this makes the entire thing highly suspect for us, and makes you relatively hard to believe.

The list of troubling things: The first link on Google to a receipt generator allows me to generate a receipt matching yours exactly. I'll add an image down below. The receipt itself is missing the company's legal information. Namely the actual company name (with the type extension, so like GmbH or whatever you have over there) and potentially the VAT registration number. This is a really clean receipt scan. I would love to have receipt scans this clean when doing my non-profit's book keeping, but oddly, I never do. ? The tax rate noted doesn't match the normal VAT rate for Germany. Reference. So uh, lemme ask you again. Are you certain that you are being honest with us?

Weell you've got a bit of explaining to do. How come you share a unique identifier with the banned player in question, Mirkoloio? One of the more harder-to-fake ones. And you're from the same country, apparently, as well.

Let's revive this shit in the hopes of me not being called a nazi. And I would implore every last one of you to actually read this, before speaking. I do not care about capes and cloaks and whatever the shit else that xeno's or even humans wear. That stuff is fine, go nuts. This PR and suggestion is specifically to address clothing worn by and issued to NT personnel. I want to emphasize this, because apparently there's been problems in understanding this. And the main issue I have with this is that it does not fit nor does it compliment the main element of NT's fashion: the jumpsuit. The issue is that simple, really. And on this simple predicament is my point set up. We should try to keep NT's style consistent, because, at the end of the day, we are here to further the perspective that we are some sort of corporate environment somewhere. Ergo, muh immersions. And as far as I'm concerned, I have yet to see any reason for not removing them beyond: Fun. Which is subjective and IMO secondary to immersion when addressing such an, ultimately trivial point. Muh xeno love. NT won't give a fuck for one, and for two, giving special clothing to a certain subset of staff goes against most principles of corporate clothing.

PR merged.

Will begin pestering developers for feedback on this one.

More like this requires lore dev approval on top of that.

da fuck. Okay, can you provide any reasonable explanation as to why individuals of authority should not be clearly distinguishable from the crowd while performing standard duties...?

I think that the general premise, outside of word policing, is that you act in an overly dramatic or over-bearing fashion when presenting some of your critique. Which, when someone has to interact with you daily for weeks, months, years; tends to wear people down. This issue has surfaced with you before, I am certain that you remember.

Point one. Know what the peanut gallery is and stop participating in it. If your post contains no new evidence or facts about given incidents, and you are not directly involved, then your post is contributing to the peanut gallery and is thus unnecessary. For a detailed, point-by-point analysis of the original complaint, I will provide this: The PR in question is fair for anyone to make. As Fowl himself said, literally anyone has the ability to make a PR to request any change be made to the code base. We do not restrict the developer's to only propose ideas which have been greenlit by the head developers, in fact, the entire decision making process is open to public in the form of pull requests. this means that you are going to see things which will get denied. Anyone who claims to have been misguided by a PR that has yet to be merged has apparently failed to understand the development process which takes place on Github. Regarding the calendar. Any attempt to paint it as something other than a stupid act is, well, stupid. A calendar event creates no damage, it is not a bug that is exploitable. It was an oversight and a stupid joke. It can easily be argued over whether staff should or should not partake in stupid jokes like that, same for him opening and closing the Skrell PR; but attempting to label it as anything more than a joke is facetious and I hope everyone involved has enough empathetic capacity to track the thick sarcasm Fowl laid out in the original post by UM about it. So thus far, we only really have 2 counts of stupid. And 1 count of using mean words but that was already addressed back when it happened, and has yet to repeat itself if I recall correctly. And a few counts of Fowl being blunt. Specifically Jackboot's 3rd image in the OP: it is not inherently bad or negative to say that, and he has a point. Present any idea and you are effectively obligated to receive criticism for it. Certain ideas being idiotic enough that the immediate response is to, just, call them out as such. But that does not necessarily address the complaint, I will agree. The general point seems to be that Fowl's conduct is draining, in general. Which is a fair assessment, it can be and is. While no specific part of it is outright against da wules, the compound effect can be a negative environment to work in. And that is a valid point to address. To begin doing so, I would like to hear what @LordFowl thinks of this view point. And a current note about stupid. While singular counts of stupid are often meaningless, it would be a good idea to limit the number of stupids you conduct.

Just as a notice, I am inactive and relatively well occupied until Sunday. So, depending on we want to handle this with @Arrow768, actual movement might be slow until then. Until then, please don't turn this into a peanut gallery: only post salient points and don't get too caught up in arguing back-and-forth. kthx.

> Leaderboards butt why.

Merged. Leaving for feedback I suppose.

For someone pointing out that our reasons are vague, you sure as hell haven't read them. First, the PR removes NanoTrasen branded cloaks. So your comments about the personal attire of people are relatively worthless, since the driving mechanisms and reasoning behind corporate fashion and uniform are rather different from that of your average person. As I already stated last night, corporate fashion exists to create a unified and clear look for a corporation, so that the representatives of that corporation could be recognized anywhere. A cloak is an incredibly offensive piece of clothing, ergo, it should either be a near mandatory piece for every employee to wear, or not exist as being nt branded. An analogy which one of my marketing professors brought up was the red scarf that is worn by Dubai Airlines female staff. A similarly offensive and attention grabbing piece of clothing, it is not optional and makes the uniform incredibly easy to identify. So again, an issue is that this is probably the most outlandish piece of NT fashion that's been added. As for alternatives. Leaving it an IC issue is nonsensical. It creates the issue of game mechanics saying that NT has authorized you to wear this, so when IC forces say otherwise, you either get confused or tell them to shove off. And your other suggestion did not make much sense. What consequences could be piled onto for wearing specific, undesirable clothing? And there's no real mechanism to pile anything, the amount of slots you have is still well limited. Already proposed was having the lore team come up with a specific look for NT, against which all past and future NT items will be evaluated. And no, "we cloaks" is not a specific look.

A sublime tool a company has in marketing is the creation of a brand. A brand's elements are colour, patterns, logos, clothing, visual style. Having extremely culturally varied pieces of clothing completely removes any chance of having a unified clothing look and visual style, it may also disturb pattern presentation. This is why "we cloaks" and the melting pot thing do not work too well. It is in fact detrimental to the brand of NT to carry way too many unique looks and styles within its wardrobe.

You better believe if my workplace said "Hey we're selling cloaks, colored by your department, that you can wear to work!" I'd be doing that. The problem with this is, a company image and culture is a bit more than just a colour scheme. Uniform and uniformity of uniforms is an incredibly important part of a company's image. And even international companies will generally try to represent one cultural image in how they dress. Or, at the very least, in one locale. So no, it is not really unreasonable to expect that something as flashy and non-fitting as cloaks would be left to the wayside. Kaed said that we're trying to pigeonhole the matter of NT fashion, and guess what, we are. Since it has to be pigeonholed within some reasonable limit. At present, the general image represented by NT has been that of a futuristic western look. Jumpsuits, maybe some currently conventional stuff, etcetera. A cloak, as proposed by us, does not befit that style. Even if it potentially did, it's a specific enough element to where absolutely everyone should be wearing one, if NT was wearing them (it's a highly distinguishable piece of garment). And the tastefulness of the piece is also questionable. There's also the fact that we've been adding fashion stuff almost every single update. So something like this was bound to happen once we ran out of conventional pieces of fashion to implement. Eventually this machine would blow by outstretching itself. [mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention] might also be interested in gathering his lore people and going over every piece of NT clothing to establish a specific look and style (and note that style is more than just colour and a logo). Which would effectively solve the same issue.

I remember now. I provided a link to the time zone the server is already based on and it got pruned with the thread. The server time is based off Chicago time. Thanks for answering - very helpful. No longer valid. The server is now in Germany, has been for well over a year. So UTC+1/+2 depending on daylight savings. And this does not concern the actual shift time. The PR in question is a technical PR which changes the source of timing for votes and calculating round duration. It does not affect any systems beyond the fact that round duration no longer "dilates" when the server is under extreme strain and the BYOND internal clock is lagging behind. With this said, I don't even see why this is a suggestion, as the PR is purely a technical detail.

Voting for a "No". There exist fairly easy counter plays to this which an experienced engineering or science team should be able to apply. Further, this stuff can effectively be done by literally anyone who knows a few wires in a matter of seconds, so this "balance" actually makes it unbalanced.

Counter problem. In doing so you basically lock dead hour down to only being wizard or traitor, with no other alternative. Which is going to most likely be more harmful towards gameplay than the issues currently present.