Jamini

The biggest issue is that the ninja can attack while in stealth, which lasts a very long time, and be completely free of any retaliation.

It really shouldn't be put into secret until the stealth mode on the suit is reduced in power. Right now a ninja, if properly played, can be literally unbeatable. On par with how malf AIs were back when they could APC hop during delta.

Similar feelings when I wanna play Lori and I see that CE is already taken........ /sulk I don't play that often. Chief Engineers are a finicky, possessive bunch. That's why you so rarely see more than two of us in the same shift. If we have more than one, we'd all spend three-fourths of the round in the SMES room/atmospherics bickering over what settings are ideal to provide power for the station. OUT: 100kx3, 0kx3, IN: 125kx6 is still the best. ANYWAY, I do like that the few CE characters that Aurora have are overall pretty solid. I wish I had more chances to interact with ya'all on Nasir at times.

The stuff like nanotech, stem cells, regenerative membrane, prothesis, and such exist on-station because Nanotrasen is historically a medical research company. What we have on-station is not indicative of what everyone has and can afford. In fact, quite the opposite has been stated multiple times by lore devs. So you do not need to have removal be prohibitively expensive to justify him having the scars. He just didn't care or didn't mind. Going and getting surgery would be pretty inconvenient. Plenty of people put off doing things because it's inconvenient or a hassle already. This example is actually proving my point; that you can justify characters having scars without the need for arbitrarily increasing the cost of cosmetic surgery. Except you are the only person I see wanting cosmetic surgery to be cheap here. I was actually talking to my grandparents, just last night, about cosmetic surgery. How expensive it is, and how likely it is you are actually going to come out of it with any real immediate and long-term benefit. Long story short: If you don't put a lot of money into cosmetic surgery today, you generally get very little out of it. I don't see why this should change. If he did I would have said so. No. Part of his story is that he was too poor at the time to have them fixed (and now he doesn't care enough to fix them) You have no evidence to support this statement. A ship built over several years of funds that functions as his home and a private business. While certainly expensive to hell, the latter isn't too far from what some private jet owners do to help offset the cost of the jet. Not to mention part of the agreement he has with the people who rent from him is free labor/maintenance for the ship. There is nothing stopping someone who explores concepts like body autonomy and body modification from doing so, while still having cosmetic surgery expensive and difficult to obtain. Ultimately however, we are not playing Eclipse Phase here.

I do have strong feelings regarding the subject, as you are fully aware. I dislike encouraging security to be the sole people who interact with and handle antagonists by default, and I even more intensely dislike extensive ERT presence on the station without a very good reason for such. Having both ultimately cheapens player-antagonist interactions, and generally breeds players who are extremely passive when frankly, the main actors in the "story" of the station should be the entire crew. ERT in particular act, for lack of a better word, as essentially a "Deus Ex Machina" when it comes to antagonist actions, as opposed to a last resort. I would much prefer the roleplay and interaction around gathering up a ragtag group of survivors, some of whom are probably inexperience or completely untrained in fighting, over simply having everyone sit in the bar and wait for security/ert to solve the problem for them. Such a view is not healthy for the game. Problem solving, conflict (both actual fights, and arguments), and opposition breed an interesting story. The story of a handful of people who hid on an outpost for three hours, then rode out on the shuttle, just isn't (often) very exciting unless they themselves also end up in very real danger. As for the "stunglove issue found within five minutes of the change", I honestly really do feel as if it was simple coincidence. Again, there was only one player (to my knowledge) that put stungloves into webbing on a regular basis. That player happened to be the CE in question. I know I do not, and I do not know of many others who build gloves at all unless there is a very real need. (especially as gloves are honestly very dangerous to wear at all times, due to multiplying damage taken from shocks by three) I agree, but I also do feel it depends on the circumstance. Not only who the opponent is: but what they are armed with, how threatening the armed person is, if or if not the person disarming is trapped or not. Etc. Let's also not forget, the coin-toss system also has a good chance of having the person disarming getting shot. It is not a riskless tactic by any means.

There isn't any anger. Each instance needs to be looked at individually, as each one is handled differently. By dividing up the response one can answer more accurately to the statements in question. In some instances Bokaza was right, in others they were simply outright inaccurate. It is unfair to provide a blanket answer when specifics need to be mentioned. I'll avoid double posting.

Honestly, considering we have a looooot of people with scarring, I'd actually edge towards removal of scars remaining prohibitively expensive and probably quite painful. While it is something a person from a rich or upper class family could afford, it isn't something that everyone can simply shell out the money to do. Doubly so if an injury remained untreated long enough to become seriously infected, happened in the absence of Aurora medical care, or simply wasn't treated much at all. Basically, I think you are trying to make cosmetic corrective surgery cheaper than a great number of players actually want it to be. I don't mind corrective surgery being a thing for the rich and well-off, but I don't really think it should be available to "just about anyone." And honestly, a reaction to a scar probably shouldn't be "Oh, you should get that fixed." but rather, "Oh, you couldn't afford to get that fixed." Using Nasir as an example, 'cause I like examples. As a CE with more than five years of experience, he would be a Tier 11 pay grade employee. As Tajara, he would probably get a slightly smaller paycheck. He has three notable clusters of scarring. A severe burn on the back of his head, acquired when he was a Tier 2 Apprentice. A severe burn on his face, acquired when he was a Tier 6 Engineer. Multiple small burns on both hands, from numerous numerous electrical shocks (and a few other things), aquired from nearly thirteen years in the field. The first and second I would argue, he did not have the money to pay to have the scarring fixed. While at this point in his life he probably could, he has other things he is spending his money on, (Ship ownership, other projects etc) and as a whole the scars do not inhibit his work. Ergo he hasn't bothered to spend the time to get it fixed. Doubly so since his spouse doesn't care about the scars. I would say it is most likely that you would need to be a Tier 8/9 or so pay grade to reasonably be able to afford cosmetic surgery. Excepting people who are VERY determined to get so or have other means to acquire the money.

What more do you want me to say? I've seen him play captain and HOS before for quite some time. Extremely well. He made a point of knowing corporate regulations to the letter as HOS and is extremely good in handling outright hostile situations, negotiations with unknowns, and general operations. I didn't have as much experience with Noir as his captain, but what little I did see was quite acceptable. His characters personalities were fairly diverse, and he was a pleasure to play with when we played together on baystation. I'm surprised, but certainly quite happy, to see him here.

FOOLAMANCER? Holy crap yes! This guy is like the quintessential original Skrell. And one of my favorite/best captain's I've had a godamn pleasure to serve under. Even if he was a hardass... LIke holy crap, welcome to Aurora! ((Oh right. When/if you get squid access here. Skrell lisp on Aurora. juuust a heads-up.))

Because medical can and should be detained if they make a chemical is used improperly. Anyone that wants something from chemistry should be required to provide a reason for it. Medical does so internally all the time (Medics that want chloral made need to justify it. they can be denied. Same for any other pharmaceutical) , security is not exempt from this expectation. Except they don't, with the exception of a few individuals who should be talked too. Once again, I repeat. As a whole, engineering will only arm up to defend themselves and their department. If someone attempts to sabotage the engine or atmospherics, or attacks an engineer or group of engineers in maint, the engineers should be permitted to defend themselves. While not everyone follows this, the majority do. Perhaps a handful of characters will actively vigilantie, and just like those bad officers, they should be talked too individually. Punishing the whole, which YOU seem to be suggesting, is just as bad as punishing ALL of security for a handful security players who routinely overstep. Let me bring up a bit of vigilantism of my own. Right? Situation: Cult round. Security is understaffed (1 warden, 1 officer, 1 CSI), engineering is lightly staffed (CE, two engineers. I was unfamiliar with either.) 1. Starting cultists were Haruspex, Sam, and one of the Engineers 2. During the course of the round, the test site had its cameras cut. I also witnessed evidence of an assault (camera on the ground and some damaged walls from someone flailing a wirecutter about). Did not call security as both engineers reported in and stated it was an accident. (A lie, but I let it pass) 3. Persistent unusual activity from both engineers, minor sabotage found and corrected. Security found nothing concrete. Had a security borg accompany me on checking the test site with both engineers present. 4. Both Sam and Haruspex were captured. I was called to the brig as a lone head of staff to help look at Sam's implant and Haruspex (synthetic life and all) 6. After speaking with Sam and Haru, I ask security to bring in both engineers for questioning and search. As we moved to blue. Engineers report that they are out on the solars (very late in the round) 7. I spot one of them EVA near the permabrig. Shortly after both Haru and Sam escape. 8. Security was on command channel now. I tell them to bring in both engineers. 9. Returning to engineering (worried about sabotage) I hear sparks near cargo. Probably someone hacking. I message sec, move to investigate. Hacked doors are my responsibility. Check mining doors. 10. Find both one of the engineers and Sam in a hardsuit. Fairly confident ICly that they aren't heavily armed. (no weapon out, one was just released from perma. etc). I choose to go after them. Give them a quick verbal warning I am going to attack them. "Wiring solars, huh?" Call security to respond to cargo immediately. 11. Stunglove and tie both, after a bit of a fight. I avoid injury from a wrench. Hand over to security when they arrive. Was I actively chasing them? No. It was mostly luck that I heard the hacking. Did I choose to be a combatant? Yes. Had I found them actively sabotaging engineering would I have went after them? Probably. Would I have found them if they used another airlock not near engineering? No. Would I have any ground to stand on if I lost the fight and died? No, nor would I have complained. I started the fight. Vigilantism? Yes. But certainly not antag hunting. Should security have arrested me for it? Debatable, though they seemed ill-inclined to do so due to low staffing at the time.

Do you have a gun? Stun them. Tie them up. Take_hostage, order to the ground. Shoot them to incap, then tie up. You would be surprised how few members of engineering are willing to go on the offensive. I can personally think of perhaps three or four out of an entire department regulars that will openly vigilante. The bulk of the rest will prefer to turtle in engineering and hold out/defend their equipment, or simply run.

Untrue. Seen plenty of wardens and HOS players order things directly from cargo if no techs. True. Mind, fixing breaches is an aquired taste. It's funny how often I need to outright chase officers out of medical, or have them tell me that X or Y needs X or Y surgery or chemical when I'm playing a Paramed or Doctor. Maybe you don't see it, but I do. Generally security avoid these areas, except to arrest scientists who toe out of line. More than you seem to think. Mind, they get shouted at and told to tone it down, but nevertheless it still happens. It will continue to happen. It is not always wrong when it does happen. There are times to go over departmental boundaries for all staff. Hell, I've had security harass me before for troubleshooting telecomms cameras/hacks (during malf) because my activities "Seemed Suspicious" to an officer. Despite the fact that I had the RD enroute/there and another engineer assisting me. To the point where I had to have Centurion remove them from the satellite. I've also had to tell security that multiple calls the AI made on an atmos technician were unnecessary, as it was a departmental issue, in the past (It wasn't the officer's fault, but nevertheless security was involved when they didn't need to be). Security as a rule of thumb, simply put, will constantly try and butt into the business of other departments. Pft. That depends entirely on the ops and the officers in question. I've seen plenty of antags (wizards and ninjas) and op teams utterly decimate security. Some of said teams killed off security, only to find themselves falling to cargo techs and engineers with crossbows/flamers/stungloves, or medical crew with syringeguns/autoinjectors/AEDs in a moment of opportunity. Quite frankly, if the crew chooses to defend themselves they should be allowed to do so. As long as they accept that security is permitted to arrest them and that by acting against the antagonists they are opening themselves up to retribution.

Funny, I have had nearly zero difficulty taking out other engineers as antagonists on a regular basis. Without ever once being accused of a gank or bad RP. (With an exception of one chaplain I cremated as a ling. But the complaint there was that I cremated the body and removed them from the round. Which was fair.) 1. Do not. Ever. Let. Anyone. Close with you. -Hey, guess what! Letting someone within one tile of you is ASKING to be disarmed, stunned, or worse. Literally anyone can remove your inhand weapons with a 25% chance on a single click! If someone is one tile away, you should be backing up or shooting them for getting too close! (Or, alternatively, stunning THEM for getting too close.) 2. Do not fight alone if you can help it. -There is strength in numbers. You know the reason why so many servers have stories of assistants, clowns, and janitors who outrobusted entire nuke teams or entire STATIONS? That is because people would try and take that person on alone. Fighting anyone one on one means you have zero safety net, and is a recipe for disaster if you eat a single stun or unlucky blow. 3. Do not rely on take_hostage -Just because you have your gun aimed at someone does not mean you have won the encounter. Far too many people think that take_hostage should be an instant win. It's not. Don't rely on it. There is nothing wrong with stunning someone to down and cuff them. That isn't a gank, as long as you are not outright trying to kill them. 4. If someone refuses to comply with your demands? Shoot them. -If you tell anyone to get on the fucking ground, and they refuse? (I normally give 5-15 seconds to comply, more if someone is a slow typer) They have voided any protection that they might have had. Shoot them. It's really that simple. A standing person is a threat, and if they make a move towards you they are doubly a threat. Rectum, you need to just toughen up a little. People are not going to fearRP or painRP with you if you don't actually give them a reason to fearRP or painRP. Be ruthless, as an antagonist, because most of the time the people you are against are going to look for an opening to use against you in order to take you down. Why? Because it is a game. Many people will play it to win, because fighting back and taking a shot at winning is fun to them. If you don't want to be tough and violent as an antag, then you need to use methods that are less obvious or clearly intended to be fun for your target. Watch Wer6 and his antics for examples. You can try and make a situation where the target is aware that you are not going to outright murder them (For example: My last vampire round. I had /multiple/ crew that let me partially drain them with a simple hyponotise, because I was very very clear from my actions/speech that I had no intention of seriously harming them. The ones that made it clear they didn't want to be attacked? I ceased attacking. By the end of the game I had enthralled all of command, had engineering building me a throne room in escape, and had a steady supply of protohumans provided by a pair of collaborating doctors in medical.). Or, you can simply avoid situations where being attacked will ever come into play (deny resources, create diversions, keep your opponents busy and distracted. Hacking the AI and emagging borgs are some of the best ways to accomplish this)

>Security has two straightjackets >Security has nitrus oxide cansters. Multiple of them. >Security has ITS OWN MEDICAL AREA. >Security has tons and tons of preexisting radios and crowbars. >Security has its own fucking operating table, and the tools to perform autopsies (a job that was intended for medical to do) >Security starts with a mass spectrometer. If given half an inch, security will happily step all over the lanes of other departments. They do and have historically. While I'm not saying it is right for OTHER departments to do so, do not act as if security is blameless. Actually, nuke was designed around 5 nuke ops vs. a station of 20+ armed personnel. That's actually 100% intended. That is why nuke gear is by default so horridly powerful. It's not supposed to be 5v5, it's supposed to be 5v20.

Actually, far as I am aware having scars removed is not mentioned as expensive or cheap. Generally, however, cosmetic surgery is an expensive, painful, ordeal. If we are talking about cloning, I tend to consider the cloner closer to a 3-d printer. It takes a snapshot of your character when they are scanned in for a backup (and clones from a deceased person use the last backup on ODIN) only filling in severe and life-threatening injuries. (Such as organs or missing limbs). What does this mean? Any scars one has when they are scanned in would remain. Unless someone 1. pays a geneticist to remove the scar from their backup or 2. Gets expensive cosmetic surgery. Unless a lore-master directly counters this view, I will retain it AND my characters' scars. Plus I enjoy scars. Scars tell stories.

Generally my hackles only get raised when someone leaves another person unclonable. Aside from that I do agree, even if I don't always follow in practice. ... I will however still robust your nuts off in self defense. So go all out on me. It's really okay!

Delta, I do not really see why the incident you outlined is any different than say: 1. A HOS executing a ling who had done almost nothing aggressive. 2. A security officer with a sniper rifle shooting a traitor that had the HOS hostage five times, when the first shot downed said traitor. 3. A security department as a whole that spent THREE HOURS chasing and being utterly humiliated by a skilled ninja, who's main crime was simply existing. ...and so on, and so forth. Doubly so when one takes into account that three of the four involved persons in your engineering militia were in their own department defending it, and probably would have gotten shot up ANYWAY for being there. Their injuries and deaths were their own faults, not yours. I'll bring up some successful militias I've had while working with Jackboot/Jawdat. I've been in a breacher before, with Senzi, moving people to safe areas and doing my damnedest to scare off the operatives with gun and presence. More times than I can count I've seen engineers sit in the lobby with weapons made, because security was either outright /dead/ or /unable/ to spare an officer. I've also shot up plenty of my own engineers as operative, Vox, wizard, and changling if they were hostile. I've outright killed a few members of my own department as well, if they refused to comply with my demands as a cultist. From an OOC perspective: Going Militia is fun for a lot of players. /really, really/ fun. While ERT calls and sitting in the bar for hours are generally not for station staff. I would much rather a game be played with everyone involved, then be forced into a singular activity by admin intervention. That means, occasionally, having a militia from civilian, medical, or engineering spring up.

-You mean, the ling is an asshole. I think that applies to any antagonist.

There is one chief engineer character who I know of that does this, out of perhaps FOUR regulars. Considering I was the one who told scopes that the change should be made after I had talked with said character about it ICly perhaps you should focus less on demonizing the whole department and look into why things are done. Or perhaps, even, play engineering for a few rounds yourself. As an aside, the player in question had stated they did so in order to fit a power cell into their webbing. Not to have a weapon on-hand at all times. The truth and validity of that argument isn't for me to decide. And if you want me to start breaking down various engineering regulars. I will. Since I know MOST of them quite well. Except we do not. If you played engineering with any regularly, you would know that isn't the case. You are committing a massive logical fallacy here. One Chief Engineer Made Stungloves at Round Start > Making Stungloves without a reason is powergaming > Thus all engineers are milita-forming powergamers. Blatantly false. I've routinely seen medics accompany and assist security. And cargo/mining/bartender are just as likely to militia up as engineering is. If not moreso. (Since THEY don't have the need to actually, y'know, FIX things that break.) Massive assumption, and also untrue. We don't. We won't.

Lings haven't made people unclonable for a long, long time.

This is none of your business. It has been discussed and handled with administration. You do not have the entire picture on the situation regarding this, nor are you in any position to judge me for my actions. Doubly so when one remembers that the CE and RD (and by extension, their departments) are the people who are directly responsible for the AI and, in fact, are obligated to act when the AI is not acting properly. And I will repeat. The CE and RD, and their departments, are responsible for the AI. They are the people who are there to handle the damage, and take it down if it proves to be subverted or becomes a tangible threat. This isn't a case of rushing the antagonist, but rather filling one's role on the station. No different when security is required to go toe-to-toe with operatives, or try and find traitors who act against regulations.

...why wasn't an antagonist virologist not allowed to release a virus on the station? That makes no sense. That is like... literally their primary weapon. (and easily counter-able if medical has anyone with any chemistry training) I take that back. You should PROBABLY mention the virus was GBS. That shit isn't cool.

extended secret cult rp-revolution traitor heist wizard/ninja/vampire changeling extend-a-traitormongous/traitorchan nuclear mutiny malfunction Extended wins straight out, Secret right behind because not knowing your antags is fantastic. Cult is third, because it's almost always good. Nuke is the shitty version of Heist, Mutiny is outright bad and needs a complete directive reword, and Malf is good about as often as you get two blue moons in a year.

.... I want this. This is epic enough to want.