Jamini

Would you like me to lock and archive this thread until Erik and yourself are finished with your collaborated copy? Haven't had an opportunity to do so yet, and I kind of like to get feedback here! Regardless, I don't think we'll edit things too heavily on the page overall. Mostly just tweaks and concepts for common and uncommon mods.

Fixed it for you.

I will not deny that I occasionally will indulge in this. Though I do try not too as a rule, there are a handful (one or two) players that I do occasionally allow more than I should. The main crux of this issue is simple however, people generally do not want to give out power or authority to someone and then have said person turn around and immediately abuse it. Absolutely nothing is worse than giving extra authority or access to a person only to discover they are OOCly incapable of handling said authority or access. Unfortunately for everyone, it is very easy to place skills in your employment records that you may simply put, not possess or be exceedingly poor at. There are multiple instances of this happening in the past even, where a head of staff used an employment record of an employee, only to find said employee is incapable in the roles listed. For example: I have heard a story of a nurse, fairly recently, that had listed skills in the following in medical: -General medicine -Genetics cloning -Basic chemistry -Surgery Skill set issues aside, the CMO on-duty at the time permitted this unknown, but supposedly qualified nurse, additional access to help out in medbay. Essentially making her into a senior doctor. This nurse proceeded to accidentally kill four people in various ways, mishandled cryo twice, and ignored CMD regulations (which was a thing at the time) to tell someone they were cloned directly. Resulting in a suicide As a result of allowing someone with the "skills" to handle something ICly, but not OOCly, this person removed several players from the round and caused another to kill themselves. Cases like this are not uncommon. Especially in atmospherics, xenobiology, and medical. The only way to really know if a character, or player, is able to fill a role is to know them and be familiar with them. In a sense, you need to know if the player can handle themselves in a role before simply letting them go. I personally routinely ask for temporary chemistry access on my EMT, and there are a handful of characters that my CE will permit to act as a Senior engineer (engineering+atmospherics). Those characters are few and far between, as ICly and OOCly I simply will not trust someone to perform duties beyond their initial skill set without proof of ability and trust inherent with working together. For most players, this sort of trust takes only a handful of rounds. In combat, you cannot know if the other person is going to legitimately respect your RP or not. There is role-play in action, like it or not, and you will not always get a mustache-twirling monologue every time you die. Sometimes, even often, an antagonist needs to act quickly and decisively when attacking another person to avoid situations where they are guaranteed to be removed from the board as a player. I will reference an incident last night for this, which is still not wholly resolved. Last night, as a changling, I borderline ganked Centurion. Myself and Henji had mowed him down nearly wordlessly, and from the outside it would appear to be a non-RP death. Was it unfair? Possibly. But allow me to explain my reasoning for opening fire rather than talking. 1. Both myself and Mu (Henji), had already been compromised several times during the shift. I had already been captured once, and we had killed and taken the identity of the officer who arrested me while centurion was not on-station. 2. Both Mu and myself were aware that Centurion was immune to our abilities, most of our weapons, and was armed with at least a carbine. Which, during the shootout, he did pull out and shoot me with in the chest. 3. Our intent was to lure Centurion away from the warden's desk (a position he had been reassigned to), and into the permabrig to kill him. Possibly with a short monologue. However, Cake was moving quite a bit and was difficult to pin down with words. 4. While we were trying to talk to him, Centurion found the body of the officer who's identity I had stolen 5. Ultimately, while I do regret shooting him wordlessly in retrospect, I stand by the decision I made in haste. We had openly intended to target him, and he was an armed threat with reason to know both myself and Mu were hostiles. 6. In the grand scheme of the round, his death did create RP. Shortly after both of us had to dispose of a pair of witnesses who had come to investigate the gunshots. It was only by intimidation, a very fast trigger finger, and a bit of luck that we managed to silence (and consume) both witnesses. I've made it a personal mission of mine to try and get new players involved on the server. But it can be very difficult to do so when experienced or well-known players begin to speak up or act. The best option, honestly, is to encourage everyone to be more open and forthright with new and unfamilier players. It's hard, but a necessary thing. Humorously though, part of it is indeed personality. Sometimes as a new or unknown player/character, you need to do things that will get you noticed. I can personally say that I rarely get ignored when I play my lesser-known characters, as I'm very good at integrating myself with the round. The "closed community" thing goes both ways, a new player needs to speak up, be heard, and bug the experienced. Don't be afraid to be loud! You only get as much attention as you draw to yourself. Edit: Oh also, Xeno players? DON'T BE DICKS AND USE :j ;o or :k ALL THE TIME. SERIOUSLY. WE ALL DO IT, AND IT NEEDS TO BE CUT DOWN A BIT OKAY?

I'd say yes, but I've seen the spaghetti code that the chaplain uses right now for his book and stuff. If we do it, we probably should redo the whole spawning events for the chaplain.

Ick, ick ick. no. The IAA needs to be divorced more from security. While I like having IAA near interro for OTHER reasons, we do /not/ want them expected to be the QM of security. That is a horrid idea. Like this. No. God no. Get rid of it. The CSI and Detective should need to use the real morgue. Not their own personal playground. I cannot overstate how much I loathe the idea of security having it's own morgue. Medical handle the dead, not sec. I like this, though I'm concerned that it will make it to easy to control brigged antagonists. Breakouts should be possible, or even encouraged. Frankly, if I had my way security wouldn't have anything more than a rollerbed, a cryobag, and a basic medical kit in a wall closet. Just like engineering does. Medical should be responsible for injuries, in medical. Brig Medic should never, ever be a role. We have a whole department for that. Yuk yuk yuk.

I had no hand in designing security. I merely piped it and shrunk down some 3x hallways into 2x hallways. I designed the civilian areas, not command or security.

It is also generally very easy to clone bodies. Assuming someone doesn't go out of their way to remove heads/brains/cremate. Normally you need to go to a lot of effort to prevent someone from coming back in. (or blow them up). Antagonists may not always have this option, but one must remember that they often have a significant equipment advantage over standard station staff. Overall it's probably best if we all step back and bit and try to be a little less touchy about being beaten and dying. Really it's not so bad unless you happen to end up unclonable. (Also I will point out, I am a very heavy advocate of cloning antagonists!)

I concur with this statement, and will openly admit to similar feelings myself when I get beaten. Which is why lately I've been trying to only object to people being permanently taken out of the round. (Which yes, I do slip up. Even often.) It's hard to keep a perfectly level head when playing as an antagonist, and sometimes one will make rather nasty mistakes.

Yes to instagibbing stamps! I mean Chaplain alt-titles!

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Considering Sowei is uh, literally the inspiration and Mother of my own lizard. I can very much endorse that Gale is an excellent role-player (far more than she gives herself credit for) and a fantastic lizard player. Frankly, I consider her one of the two quintessential, original Unathi in my own time in spess. Clan Seifa Will Rise Again

Erik, let's set a time to meet on the pad and discuss ideas. I'd love to work with you and refine this further. Even if I tend more towards a conservative view of how widespread genetics would be.

He's a creepy stalker of a ghost! Every time I try and be spooky he's there /following people and out-spooky!ing me. I like seeing him in security, as he's one of the more level-headed officers. I dislike the fact that he's run as assistant a /lot/. Weeeeeell AS medical, I adore Aliyah. She's efficient, fun to work with, and fairly no-nonsense She also puts up with Al-Nasser's special brand of goofy. However, her attitude towards everything in science, most of engineering's shenanigans, and her constant screeching for security over minor things bugs me a tad. I especially dislike her attitude towards genetics, and I kind of feel she's driven a few people who could be legitimately good geneticists out of the field with her harping. Her immediate attempts to kill tamed slimes also does get old after the first four or five times. I absolutely hate when she makes crap up about regulations that don't exist. Still. For the "Paramedic people can't tell apart from Omnir" she's great to work with.

Thank you for the logs. I'll retract the bit about shooting civilians as it was clear it wasn't delta and they had indeed ordered Elysium to stop shooting right after the fact. Apologies for that.

I think it is an interesting idea in and of itself, and possibly worth looking into. If the role ends up filled with shitters as you think, it isn't something that is going to last. I know of a few commanders that probably could use that extra hand and voice telling them to cool their jets /calm down. Personally I think we'd end up with an equal ratio of good shields to bad shields as we do detectives currently. Especially if it becomes a semi-popular slot. The few times I've seen command bodyguards assigned, they have been fantastic. (Terrifying in mutiny though.) Oh yeah, it would also make mutiny slightly easier for the head loyalist. There is that bonus. It's not terribly difficult to simply remove the role suggestion and bump up the number of bridge assistants either. I have engaged the issue time and time again, and will probably continue to do so. Overall, security simply has too much authority and power in one department. Bad security step on toes constantly, and all too-often the entirety of a round boils down to "Security VS bad guys", leaving out the rest of the station. Part of the core, crux issue is simply that they have too much invested in a single department. Removing some of that and moving it over to a department that probably SHOULD have that authority would be healthy and good for the server. In this case, moving some of the investigative ability from security to the HR sector would help force security to be more honest and open with the rest of the station. We need to move away from security being the "Cop, Judge, Jury, and Executioner." and more into the "Cop" role.

I'd prefer they report to the Head of Personal, as I stated, as lack of oversight in a department often becomes a very clear issue. Not to mention that the head of personal does act as our HR crew-member already. Having a sub-department like this would encourage more people to play this rarely-filled and very important role more often. Obviously the IAA and Detective would need some immunities by directive or regulation that allowed them to investigate their boss. I respectfully disagree. Security rarely have the inclination and manpower to protect heads of staff. Far more often they are chasing down regulation breakers or hunting antagonists. Which is fine, their job is to ensure corporate regulations are followed. Having a bodyguard that reports to command/the hop and has no authority or responsibility to arrest would be a benefit. Security clearly isn't on-station explicitly to protect command, nor do they act like it in the slightest. The role's accessibility to a lethal weapon is on-par with the Detective as they currently are. If anything, your argument is more an argument to remove the detective's lethal handgun than anything else. I'd argue that they are not, actually, well-seated for such a task. As has been repeated time and time again. Security members, especially newer ones, are prone to abuse and ignoring directives and chain of command. Even experienced security members can be ridiculously gung-ho about asserting their authority for events where they have absolutely real reason to give input This change would directly remove many teeth out of security's arsenal to abuse the crew. That is fully intended. They would be relegated, rightly, to "Upholding Regulations" and "Protecting Assets", while the Internal Affairs branch would handle all "Investigative" and "Human resources complaints" issues. Security, frankly, has too much power. They need to have some of it moved elsewhere. That is why I did mention a HR channel would be an appropriate alternative.

IT was in the central corridor, just after the cargo breach. Both paramedics were moving towards the injured, we spotted your and ran. Two engineers were fore of us in hardsuits. no weapons or emitters at all. Honestly they probably didn't know you were THERE. One operative immediately opened fire on Ysra and the other engineer, continuing to fire lasers through the firelock I used to run out. Both myself and the other medic immediately evacuated the injured engineers for treatment. It was very, very definitely an operative shooting. Not a bloody emitter. At final count it was approximately five decapitated, two additional dead. Mind, these are officers who you had already deprived of all their weapons and were unarmored. I agree to a point. But I draw the line when it comes down to a team outright bum-rushing anyone and murdering them with little to no interaction. Twice in a row a team led by Junlata has done exactly that. Rushed directly at the bridge, murdering anyone who might possibly pose a threat with little to no roleplay. Regardless of Delta's intent, he was very obviously the person in control of both teams. I will reiterate. I do not mind violence. I strongly feel that escalating a situation or responding to force with equal force in kind is fine . What was done here? This was essentially an outright gank with overpowered weapons with the sole intent of wiping out anyone who might bother to stand up to his team. Without any real roleplay or interaction with the crew except for bullets and lasers. I do, strongly, object to instantly ratcheting up the violence to level 11 in an environment where it is not expected or suitable for a server based so heavily around role-play. Should nothing be done about this, you can guarantee that both sides will not only do this again, but that next time things will get much, much bloodier.

*cough* fixed. Finding a better alternative to HR than what I put up just now might be prudent.

Ahem You cannot clone a headless corpse. We also had no geneticist in medbay, and all of one person had any idea how to clone at all after nearly twenty minutes of searching. So no. They didn't get to get cloned much at all. Thank you very much. Let's also not forget that medbay has a fairly effective limit on how many people they can clone without additional biomass. And how militant some administrators are if they catch even an unfounded rumor that someone who isn't genetics trained is doing genetics. This argument holds absolutely no water.

Department of Staffing and Administration Reports to: Head of Personal Location: IAA Office, Detective office, bridge Department Duties: Ensure all staff are following station directives, chain of command, and corporate regulations. Works closely with security to ensure that evidence, prisoner treatment, and misconduct charges are handled properly. Primary players in investigations, interrogation, and negotiation. Alternate to gaining command channel access, HR could receive its own channel and headset. However I'm reluctant to state as such due to the fact that it might isolate the IAA and Detective too much from the rest of the station. Jobs and Slots: IAA Agent - 2 Detective - 1 Blue Shield - 1 Bridge Assistant - 2 Details: IAA Agent - As per current. The only change is that the IAA is expected to report to the Head of Personal (unless it is the Head of Personal they are handling a complaint on). Officially DOs are still their "heads", but the Head of Personal is essentially their "field boss". -Lose Security Channel -Gain Command Channel -Gain Bridge and Meeting room Access Detective -The Detective no longer directly reports to security. Their security access is reduced to basic brig and interrogation. -The Detective now has a direct line to command. -Gains fax access -Remains on the security channel for logistics reasons -Gain Command Channel access. -Gain Bridge and Meeting room Access Blue Shield -An idea lifted from a few other servers. Blue Shields are essentially bodyguards for command. -Permitted to carry a holstered weapon and basic armor on green alert. -Absolutely no authority to arrest or detain. -Absolutely no command authority whatsoever. -Loyalty Implanted -Command Channel access -Access: Bridge, Meeting Room. Bridge Assistant -Low-End administrative assistants. Same authority as all other assistants. -Run as command "Gophers" -A lead-in job for low-level command roles. Such as QM or HOP. -Command Channel access -Access: Bridge, Meeting Room Security Changes CSI Slots increased: 2 slots. A small group of ideas. Essentially a creation of a new department to go with our upcoming map changes. Basically, moving some investigative role out of security and into a sub-department designed for explicitly that. Detectives are moved more from "Police Detective" roles and more into "Corporate investigators". They gain a direct line to command, and most importantly, the captain. IAA likewise are again divorced from security and moved more towards their job of "watching the watchdogs". Bridge Assistants are basically entry-level secretaries to help command out, while the Blue Shield is a bodyguard for at-risk command staff (primarily the captain). All aforementioned staff would fall under the Head of Personal officially (except the IAA, who merely report to him unless an incident involves the head of personal)

This sums up your entire argument. Except security aren't a police force. I'm done here. Got a different idea that is off-topic. I'll be posting in another thread about it to avoid cluttering this one.

Actually it's funny, because normally I would agree that action is fine. I think you have me outright confused with someone else. I have no issue with blowing away armed threats. I have no issue with responding to force, and threats of force, with an escalation. My issue is this level of action, a play-to-win power-gamey mentality is just so readily apparent that it's sickening. There was no buildup, no tension. It was simply a goon-level operative rush on a station that legitimately has no means to defend itself against it without opening themselves to administrative action. Mind, I had brought up someone on security's side that seemed to be doing JUST that to administration prior to your attack. You went into a station fully intending to blow everyone away. You interacted minimally with the crew, and blew away virtually everyone you ran into. Your teams outright ganked unarmed people in front of me. Twice. That isn't good antag play. Not in any sense of the word. It' s akin to going traitor, buying a revolver and as much ammo as you can, and popping off heads with a double-taps. Am I okay with violence and combat? Yes. I am. Am I okay with wordlessly slaughtering half the crew? Fuck no. Your teams did the latter not once, but twice. Two days in a row. THAT is my issue. Once I could possibly accept, but twice shows that you are clearly trending towards bloody, thoughtless, orgies of violence.

Delta, Junlata was clearly the operative in control of both operations. It was clear from start to finish that she was the person calling the shots and controlling the team. Both rounds were pulled off nearly-identically. Oh, so the injuries on Ysra and the other engineer who was shot by the laser were simply imagined then? I recall RUNNING from your team, and seeing multiple shots taken at a group of engineers who just past. I strongly doubt that Jade/Voltage was pulling a Taser on you either, that's not how she ever rolls, Nevertheless, she was beheaded today. Or yesterday when I watched a Tajaran officer get mowed down by 9 bullets completely offscreen when she had nothing in her hand at all. In fact, pretty much any conflict I saw between operative and officer was pretty explicitly "Shoot them dead." Considering how heavily you removed security's ability to get equipment, outright murdering them was well in excess of the force needed. Hell, frankly, I've seen other operative teams neutralize security while only needing to kill one or two of them. Then use the rest as hostages against the station. You didn't do that. You and your team blasted anyone you saw away. You can try and sugarcoat it however you like. Your team on BOTH nights went full murderbone, with minimal to no real interaction to the crew but bullets and gunning straight for the throat as if we were on goon or something, where security actually CAN go raid the armory at roundstart and put up reasonable resistance. My issue is that this was blatant power-gaming on the side of the ops, leading to a ridiculously bloody round on a HRP server. You didn't escalate, you didn't respond to force in kind. You blatantly went in full-cocaine with the intent to blow away as many people who might look at you sideways as possible. Hell, your comments on the engineering militia threat even stated as such. That you, as an antagonist, would consider engineers to be free targets.