Jamini

Neither does security really. Though diversity does keep things fresh on both ends. RnD is an nice, neutral place for these. Both sides can access them with good relationships with a researcher, without either having them by default. It's not terribly hard to get things from research if you communicate well and work with them. That's what we preach, is it not? inter-departmental communication and cooperation?

I do not see how these would be any more useful or necessary than current equipment, except for handling people who are using non-antagonist melee weapons. Even then, I don't see them being used more than batons. I don't see why security needs these at all, nor do I feel like they should get them without going through research. (Excepting perhaps the HOS, and even that is a stretch for me)

Why are you rushing someone alone against a person with a lethal weapon? You shouldn't be rushing into those situations. Why aren't you getting lethals of your own if you know someone has a weapon of that caliber? If you are being held hostage by said weapons, why are you fighting a fight you will clearly lose? I don't see how forcegloves would help against any of these except the e-sword, and by default I do not feel a single security officer should win in a 1v1 against an e-sword user without significant preparation.

I will point out that security here has objectively stronger equipment than they do on any server that runs Baystation code. Which is very large number of servers today. (They are one of three major codebases. The other two being TG and Goon) The only disadvantage that you have here is you still use electrodes instead of stunbeams for tasers. Your detective gun and orderable equipment are slightly stronger as well. Perhaps on nuke, security should need to work with other departments to succeed? Getting guns from research or cargo, defensive reinforcement from engineering, and combat drug mixes (hyperzine, synaptazine, tramadol) from medical, not to mention offensive chemical grenades, can drastically improve sec abilities. Promoting inter-departmental dependence, especially for security, is a good thing. Not a bad one. Basically... security shouldn't be able too or reasonably expect to win against the operatives alone.

Update 23MAR2457 -Two days prior to the shift of the abduction, a falsified directive was sent by central command ordering the employment of all Tajaran employees terminated. The directive was found false. -Anonymous -Significant damage had been sustained by the aurora, especially to telecommunications. Khayyam had brought up a backup array shortly before his disappearance. Telecommunications is a rare, and valuable, skill for any crew-member to have. -Khayyam was carrying a GPS tracker at the time of his abduction. The response team followed the tracker until it reached sector 2 of Tau Ceti Space, where the trail went cold -Khayyam has many, many co-workers and friends on the Aurora, especially in engineering -No motive has been found thus far for the abduction -A manifest of recent jobs performed by the Rankov has been given to Odin security! --- Update 24MAr2457 -Sector 2, a segment of local space that encompasses Beisel, is bluespace locked and impossible to teleport into and out of. Nanotrasen has refused to fund attempts to configure the teleporter to reach into the locked zones, but has permitted a GPS device be modified to receive signals from that area. -This modification has drastically reduced the accuracy of the device in question. -Confirmation that Khayyam's transponder has been aquired. He is somewhere on the planet, though we don't know where specifically. -Shuttles sporting Nanotrasen colors have been spotted doing unscheduled overflights of rural areas of the planet in search patterns. -Clarke, the Odin investigator representing the missing persons case, has been delayed from reporting in this morning by four hours due to a record mishap. Alexia West, her partner, has not heard from her since late on the 23rd. -A message has been sent by Rash'hed Khayyam-Eil to Rankov affiliates. --- Sign-Ups for One-shot tabletop! 1. (Chargen Complete) the_furry/Lingga - Travis Davis 2. Nandabun - Alexia West 3. (Chargen Complete)Ikmachek/DonofNyC3 - Rash'hed Khayyam-Eil 4. (Chargen Complete)Nightmare - Nasir Ha'kim 5. (Chargen Complete)SoundScopes - Fai Sinsa 6.Jackboot - Sirasairot Uaekis 7. (Chargen Complete) Ejundersc0re - Leah Conally 8. Hackie - Bryce Faust 9.(Chargen Complete) Suethecake - Ana Ro'hi'tin GM - Jamini

Flash cuff Pepperspray cuff Table cuff Baton cuff Pointblank taser cuff DOWN OR WE SHOOT YOU cuff Stunglove cuff (yes, you too can make stungloves as security. It's a bad idea, but possible) I still don't see the need for security to have more toys to make them stronger by default.

((Hey folks! In light of a recent, slightly cut short nuke round, I'm going to be hosting another meta-event! Khayyam is missing, Abducted by persons unknown! Throughout the week I will be playing a few of my less-known characters who are looking into this issue, eventually culminating with a Roll20 one-off. If you are interested in participating, or have information on the abduction, post it here! Better hurry though, whoever took Nasir meant business! In all, this mini-metaevent should last a week or so! Good luck, happy hunting!))

If you remove cloning, you need to make playermobs much, much more resiliant. SS13 was designed with life, and death, being extremely cheap, easy to lose, and easy to replace. Removing one of those tenants totally changes one of those founding principals, but also cheapens and removes several avenues of RP needlessly. This is a bad idea. Keep cloning cheap and easy (which it really isn't if you are doing it right), just like killing is.

The windoors make this much, much better.

~@b00mb00mb00m That's not how hashtags work. #hashtag Edwin Atweeke

I'm not sure that having the fabricators open to the mech charging bay is a good idea. Wouldn't that force roboticists to keep the shutters closed during most operation? I'd be worried about that if you gave out say... an oddyseus or engineering ripley. You would either need to open the door every time they come to charge, not let them in to charge, or have the fabricators open for anyone to access. I don't feel it would be ideal.

Actually that is not the case. I used to believe that, and I found out otherwise. Secret checks the number of people readied, and only picks modes that can start with the current population. Considering the situation, it's likely the round-start failures are lack of antagonists, not lack of readied up players.

It still feels like security is pretty consistently the most-staffed department. There are a /lot/ of security regulars, and the entire department is a magnet for new players. Off the very top of my head: Security Regulars: Jade, Carton, M'sid, Avery, Centurian, Katana, Ohm, Ana, Bee, Mull, Vira, Lily Engineering Regulars: Dmytro, Nasir, Nasir, Travis, Oliver, Roy, Ziva/Sairis Medical Regulars: Aliyah, Samantha, Omnir, Charlie Dove, Normally there are a lot of others who I can't remember offhand. Science Regulars: Crop, Cordell Mining/Cargo Regulars: Aaron, Stamos Obviously this is not anywhere near a complete list. Perhaps our officers are more memorable than some people in other departments as well, but I will maintain that security is far more often properly staffed than most other departments.

I make mistakes, I'll admit it when I make mistakes. I'm a flawed human being with a terribly skewed perspective at times, just like everyone else. Good point on the IAA, they should be added to the list of non-cult starting antagonists.

Voltage, you are my hero for posting this. I do apologize for my own heated arguments in OOC. I'll be the first to admit that I can be wrong when making an argument, and sometimes I get way too hot under the collar when it comes to how I view things. I'll also admit to being pigheaded and stubborn when I shouldn't be. It's something I'll probably deal with for the rest of my life. I, personally, agree. We all need to work on making Aurora a nicer, more welcoming place for outsiders, visitors, and newbies. Even if and when we are considered the nicest place in this silly game we all play, we should try and improve ourselves and others rather than tear them down. We are all here to play a game together, after all. Nothing more or less.

As the atmos tech (not engineer at the time) in question: I agree. You should be able to either pick up or directly have some reinforced glass as a drone. Drones aren't supposed to replace engineers. They exist as a way for a player with little time to participate for a short time and be able to leave when they want, or for ghosts to participate if they die without respawning (like mice). They aren't supposed to impact the round in any way except for doing small repairs and cleaning that other players can't/won't. Engineering has a way to communicate with drones, via the "ping" feature on the drone control console in drone maint (and on the bridge). The reason these are not used? Most of the time it's better to have an engineer go. I have nothing against drones personally, but playing a drone for five hours (or even one) isn't really intended. Why not just play an engineer or an engineering borg in that case and get access to the engineering channel?

It may have something to do with playtime as well. I can say with certainty that security is normally QUITE full between 6-11pm -5GMT, which is also the time when we have the largest amount of non-regulars on the server.

I don't see this is an issue. First, forced-conversions still require that the recipient accept the conversion. Second, unless security is considered outright stronger than other departments (which I will argue they do have more power than the others do by sheer virtue of starting equipment and community attitudes towards sec) this is no different than all of medical, all of engineering, all of science, or all of cargo being cult. Also, I'll take some screenshots of the round start manifest next time I spy a massive stack in security. As it happens way more than you give it credit for happening. It's TG code, Bay had it for a time and removed them from the list within the last year some time. About the same time that they added in the newer antagonist code.

Fun fact, the person that originally changed gloves to not fit xenos at all outright admitted it was a mistake to do so multiple times. Also, originally they DID NOT work when cut/mangled, and that was fixed within a week as it was terrible. I don't see why NT, when they have a notable xeno workforce, wouldn't have a few pairs of gloves for them on-hand? Kind of immersion-breaking honestly. It's not unlike how businesses/schools in many parts of the modern world are required to have handicapped accessible entrances. When a good fourth to a third of your station may need specialty equipment, you generally want to keep some specialty equipment on-hand. Two sets of gloves for xenos in each department really isn't much to ask, honestly.

Okay! I'm sure a few of you remember the little argument/debate/code talk I had with duck and Delta last night, at least I'm certain THEY do. It turns out, after looking over aurora code again, I was wrong! I'll admit it. Secret code does indeed not include round-types that you don't have the minimum number of players readied for! You guys may feel free to mock me for being wrong, if you feel the need, as it is deserved. NOW, to the point! I also suspect I have figured out why secret has been failing to start recently when we have around 21-23 people online, but not fewer than 15! There is /this/ little gem in our pre_start() code for cult! Take a look! var/list/cultists_possible = get_players_for_role(BE_CULTIST) for(var/datum/mind/player in cultists_possible) for(var/job in restricted_jobs)//Removing heads and such from the list if(player.assigned_role == job) msg_scopes("[player.key] has an invalid job for this role.") cultists_possible -= player for(var/cultists_number = 1 to max_cultists_to_start) if(!cultists_possible.len) break var/datum/mind/cultist = pick(cultists_possible) cultists_possible -= cultist cult += cultist return (cult.len>0) What does this code mean? Well, first it looks to see who out of all readied players has cult enabled. It makes a list of them. THEN it cycles through the list and removes every job tag that matches the restricted_jobs list for the mode. THEN it checks if that list is longer than one player! If that list is longer than three players, it will pick 3-4 players from that list and add them to the cult list. IF there is a cult list longer than 1, the round starts. Simple right? Well, it would be. Except for this: restricted_jobs = list("Chaplain","AI", "Cyborg", "Security Officer", "Warden", "Detective", "Head of Security", "Captain") Security officers and the warden are not able to be starting cultists. Nor is the Detective (though a CSI may). Now, Jamini, what does this have to do with cult? My answer: Everything Look at the normal population on-server during a busy round. Do you notice something? Admit it or not Aurora stacks the security department more often than any other. While it may not be particularly nice to say, it is kind of a fact. It's fairly common for security as an entity to outnumber at least two other departments, if not consist of half the crew entirely. Considering the number of round-start failures lately, most of the rest of the station probably doesn't have cult enabled! This, my friends, is why secret has been failing to start lately. A combination of nobody set up as a cultist, and a good half of the server being unable to be cultists. Also, you should note, this is the only antagonist type that security is entirely immune to being!(Except vampires, but we don't talk about vampires) Anyone can be a changeling, all heads are immune to starting as revolutionaries (duh), loyalty-implanted folks (HOS, Captain, IAA) are immune to traitoring... however for some reason security is the only department that can never (with the exception of the CSI) start as a cultist. Why? I'm not really sure! (Oh, also Borgs are immune to most antagonists types by virtue of being slaved to an AI. What fun!) So! In the interest of curtailing roundstart failures, we have a few solutions to this problem! 1. The simplest: Remove Detecitve, Officer, and Warden from the restricted_role list. Quite frankly it makes no sense, at least in my mind, that security would be immune to being brainwashed/forcibly converted off-station to follow Nar'sie. They aren't loyalty implanted, after all, and they are very demonstrably human(/tajaran/Skrell/Unathi/IPC) 2. The more robust way: Port over the new Baystation12 traitor code. How Bay12 Antagonist Selection Code Works Players that vote for a game mode are placed into a list of candidates. Should a mode fail to have enough candidates for antagonists, all players who ARE enabled are selected All remaining antagonist slots are filled by players who voted to play the round type. This may apply or be applied to mutiny as well I am NOT saying #2 is better. However it is an option that could be implemented, and it would help curtail any further instances of rounds failing to start due to lacking antagonist players. Personally? I do not like how bay12 implemented it. However it is an option if we wish to pursue that avenue. Your thoughts on the matter?

You would need to change the access on them from Armory access. I'd be for it.

Wasn't aware defib paddles did that, not something I usually use. I'll keep that in mind. Chem grenades are really only strong against trapped/unaware opponents. The timer and smoke take time to propagate out, and I've readily dodged a few chemgrenade attacks in my times just by being alert. Not to mention that they are not FoF or targeted. Ah right, I forgot that you guys have advanced weapons order-able without emagging the console for a specops crate here. Either way, cargo is really only roughly even to security when going full powergame. Except they also have a smaller crew compliment and a much harder to defend territory. Science does have everything, but all of the main tools they use take time to implement. Sure, you can get a gun in under ten minutes. A similarly powergaming officer can be in your lab in sixy seconds and have you downed too. Or an alert/traitorous AI can disable you in even less time. The main strength of science is its flexibilty, but the main weakness is that most/all of science's strongest things can readily backfire on them in spectatular ways. Most toxins researchers have stories about blowing themselves up accidentally, Xenobiology maiming themselves on slimes is a SS13 meme, Genetics disabilities can be utterly crippling (and going hulk opens you up to getting shot lots by everyone). Let's not forget that they have a pretty severe lack of EVA equipment or armor, meaning that face to face scientists are pretty squishy if you can get close enough or just rip out a wall to their labs. Science exists to test experimental things. Telesci, Materials, Xenobiology, and Xenoarchology were all added to give them things to test. Medbay was greatly improved by surgery, even if the rest of the station suffered for it. Telecomms is a fantastic addition to the game, as it makes people actually RP quite a bit. Losing telecoms is the fastest way to get a crew transfer vote. You forgot to mention engineering in that. We've got several tricks and things we can do to be utterly lethal. ZAS is a cruel mistress to the uninitiated. Also, stating security has gained nothing for combat is blatantly untrue. Security has gained the following since SS13 went open source: Sniper Rifles Modified Lethal Revolvers (For aurora) Combat Shotguns Security Hardsuits Ablative Armor Secglasses (They originally only had ordinary sunglasses) Webbing Ion Rifles Plasma pistols Plasma Rifles Beepsky From a design and gameplay perspective, yes. The bulk of the major changes to the game that were added were a net benefit to the game as a whole, and in part why it has lasted as long as it has. I've played on older builds of SS13, the more modern builds are significantly more enjoyable overall. I honestly dislike the idea that arguably the most influential and initially powerful department gaining even more of an edge by default. Frankly, security should need to work with science if they want power upgrades. I also strongly feel that secglasses should not exist for anyone but the HOS and Warden, requiring security to get them from science as they used too.

Science not giving out equipment isn't a reason to cut them out of the loop by any means. A player mentality like that (which is primarily caused by the severe consequences that SECURITY will levy against scientists that try and distribute equipment, not science's willingness to give out equipment) needs to be addressed in-game, not through mechanics. Security has by default significantly better equipment than everyone else sans antagonists, and the equipment in the armory is on par or better with anything short of sniper rifles or ERT equipment. A dedicated cargo department does not have equipment to match security without an emag, and the moment science touch guns they will be watched like a hawk by security, command, and administration for abuse. Medical has by no means firepower to outdo security, the best they have are chemicals which require either a syringe gun (which is single shot and can miss/not penetrate basic armor, unless medical is getting equipment from science) or going into melee range and STILL risking a harmsyringe not penetrating armor. The hypospray and autoinjectors are slightly stronger, but both require going into melee range against guys armed with armor, tasers, lasers, and lethal projectiles. Mechanically your argument about other departments having more firepower than security holds exactly zero water. Security have enough tools to handle their jobs. I see no reason why they need these gloves at round start at all. These sound, feel, and smell like a high-tech set of equipment to improve the abilities of an unarmed person. Something that is very explicitly and fully in science's field.

...I didn't actually notice. (*^^*) Consider that a compliment!