Lordnesh

As the AI I don't feel it is my job to tell people how to play their role, or hold their hand. If they want my help, then they can certainly ask for it. I will never refuse a request for help. I'm almost always more than happy to be helpful. But what I will not do, is utilize my out of character knowledge about the game to call out the antags. That's not fun for the antag, and it's not fun for security. As the AI you have a lot of influence over the round, simply by having such an unobstructed view of almost the entire station. It is important to use that information wisely. So everyone can enjoy the round. Not just security, and not just the antag. The way I look at is this, as the AI you have a lot of information at your disposal. However, you can't pay attention to everything at once. And how do we deal with that problem now? With filters. Filters limit the amount of data we see to something more manageable. Station on green? Filters are set to the most restrictive, such that only blatant acts are "noticed".

I am very helpful, when people ask for my help. From the wiki for AI. What the AI should do As AI you have the power to strongly influence the round and you should always be aware of that and consider your actions, and the appropriate responses, before you ruin someone else’s fun. Remember that the game is not about winning but about the RP and the experience of the round. For example it can be a real killer if the AI immediately calls out anyone looking suspicious, giving an accurate description of, for instance, a wizard. It would also be considered metagaming and against the rules. Don't just act like any normal crewmember. In fact, if possible try not to even act human. You don't even have to like humans, as long as you do your best to keep them safe. The AI has Law programming but it also has personality quirks. As a rule of thumb you should first check if any laws are threatened or not. If yes, then you have to act. If not, then you should consider the situation:

I was already watching them, out of boredom, way before security even thought to have me watch them. Essentially, I knew where things were going, so I started watching the antag. Noticed some strange behavior when they found it security was looking for them, and thought to myself "that's suspicious". However, at that time I didn't really have an IC reason to be watching them. Depending on alert level, as long as an antag isn't doing anything blatant, I'll just pretend I wasn't even looking.

I don't play a useless AI, but I definitely play more hands off. And this is true. I played a round where security was searching for a reported weapon, and I was fairly certain I knew where it was, based on my observations. However, I treated that knowledge as meta knowledge, since at the time I hadn't been requested to observe the target at the time. Despite essentially helping the antag get away with it, it didn't really change anything. I don't know what the answer to the problem of security and antag is, but I don't think restricting AI players more is the right one.

I don't make a habit of examining and remembering every single sprite, or even remembering the names for that matter. I had no idea who you were. At all. For the entire round. I only found out after the fact, through this post. There are a lot of people playing, with all kinds of different names and appearances. It's a bit ridiculous for you to expect me to remember every single one of them, when I have more important things to worry about. Unless you're directly engaging with me, chances are I don't even know who you are. Only the resident. I intended to kill you, because, again, I didn't know who you were. I thought you were just another valid hunting crewmember looking to get access they shouldn't have. Except Mako Wu decided it would be a good idea to ignore the scary skeleton trying to kill the Chaplain, and escape with them. If they had just left, I would've let them go. There was an example of that earlier with another doctor. They, smartly, left when I told them to. Mako, however, decided to be a hero. I didn't attack him until after he'd refused to leave and attempted to take my target with them. No. This happened before. Practically from the start of the round, and was the whole reason I was going after the chaplain in the first place. Except I'm unrobust and have to rely on crutches while I figure things out. This was my second time as wizard. And the whole immortal thing kinda requires that I don't.. you know.. die? Of the two instances I've admitted to, the one in the HoP's office, and the one in Security, both involved people in places that I deemed a threat to my safety. There are multiple other instances where I could have ganked random people, and did not. It's a bit unfair of you to judge me for these, when for the entire rest of the round I didn't go around randomly ganking people like everyone seems to be implying. And no, casting a single spell to scare someone off, is not ganking. Just like butt-stroking a hostage means you're intending to kill them. It's not my fault the crew on Aurora are psychos that decide to fight the magic skeleton when being near it causes their flesh to explode, or flings fucking fireballs. I'm pretty sure there's a rule about believable characters, and quite a lot of people seem to ignore that particular rule without any consequences. Doctor refusing to run away from scary skeleton when they've personally witness it's dark powers, not very believable. Not to me at least. And I don't play to win. I'm the one that called the fucking shuttle for you all. I don't enjoy going around killing people randomly, but if you're gonna start shit I will fight back. ERT wanted a fight, not my fault they lost. They were the ones that decided it'd be a good idea to continue attempting to break into command, while their flesh was exploding. They could have broken off and changed tactics, but they didn't. Hell, probably the only reason I was able to win was because I was able to attack them from the other side of the walls. Not like I stood a chance when they did get to me. I couldn't go head to head with them, so I used guerrilla tactics. Death by a thousand cuts.

They did not get ganked. I asked them if they wanted to receive immortality, and they followed me into the holodeck. Where I then proceeded to perform my religious ceremony (ie, killing them and reviving them). That's not abusing game mechanics, there's nothing in the rules (not that I know of at least) that says what you have to do with your phylactery. As the one way in which I can truly die, it's just a smart thing to do when the source of your power is compromised, both IC'ly and OOC'ly. I didn't steal the spare, I borrowed it and used it to make spare IDs. And, as a nice antag, I even put it back. I also put the gun back. Which, might I add, is not something I had to do. There is no rule stating I have to put the spare ID back, or the gun. I don't even know why you brought it up. It hardly has any relevance to anything that occurred during the round. Your comments seem largely irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you even made them. Neither of the points you made demonstrate that I violated any rules.

Alright. I'll admit to that. However, I will speak in my defense. You were attempting to break into a restricted area with weapons inside (there weren't many left at that point, but that's irrelevant, since you presumably couldn't have known that IC'ly). And for most of the later part of the round I was attacked on sight. At that point in the round, I wasn't going to take the risk of getting robusted just to give someone, that may or may not actually want to roleplay, a chance. I'm sorry for not giving you that chance, but you have to also see it from my perspective as well. The perspective of an antag that was being attacked on sight after receiving multiple threats and insults. At that point, it was open season on me, so it isn't fair for you to complain when I return the favor. Particularly when you were attempting to enter an area that had weapons you could use against me.

Yes, because by that point I had been attacked repeatedly, despite leaving people alone. And at that point everyone already believed I was some sort of murdering monster. So I merely became the thing they believed me to be. I didn't go through with it though. I just turned around, unprompted by any admin I might add.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/197XiqBzQcETZGM-LytZCGnp95zJa45OIMAtwhJa0Lyc/edit?usp=sharing I approach medical lobby to find a mech and someone in a fancy hardsuit/voidsuit. I warned them off, but they didn't listen, and instead decided to take the corpse I wanted. I attempted to scare them off by casting siphon life, but the one in the suit took that as an excuse to charge into medical, and begin valid hunting me. I tossed a fireball at the retreating mech with the corpse inside. At no point did I attempt to stop the one in the suit from leaving, nor could I most likely. They chose to remain in medical and fight. That's on them. That was a missclick. And, as your own image proves, I stopped and allowed them to leave after some roleplay. I had no intention of ganking them, and aside from the HoP, my actions that entire round support my disinclination for randomly ganking people that weren't a threat to me, or hadn't already done so. Who were those two?

I did not realize you were the HoP at the time. I had two teams of Kataphracts trying to make their way into command (I had the scrying orb), and I had been focusing on them for the most part. When I saw you in the HoP's office, I assumed you were another powergaming drill tech or something, trying to get access. I had to deal with two earlier, so I just reacted. I didn't realize you were the HoP, and just assumed you were someone that was somewhere they weren't supposed to be, and for that I apologize. It was a fun round overall, and I regret that it got as messy as it did. But I just stuck to my gimmick. I started out trying to peacefully convert people to undeath, and received nothing but bigotry and insults. Then I made several attempts on the life of the chaplain that had set me on fire and repeatedly called me evil. It only took repeated attempts, because both times Mako Wu decided to play hero and ignore the real and present danger I posed. And both times I had to fight off security as well as attempt to achieve my revenge. Screenshots of the long running gimmick. It was a steady progression from peaceful religious practice, to vengeful skeleton wizard fed up with being insulted and maligned. https://docs.google.com/document/d/11qzBhYXw5nPgkEtbGjrit3ncj4wxR_M0DR8Yus2madg/edit?usp=sharing Edit: As an extra note, I had become used to command being empty. I'd had free reign in it for most of the shift, so that contributed to why I just assumed you weren't supposed to be there.

I will respond to your points, and then I suppose we will just have to leave it up to the moderators. I do understand that. However, what you fail to understand is that there is a huge difference between beating a hostage into submission and executing them. Which we never did. At no point did we do more than butt-stroke any of our hostages. I would grant you this point, however, we never killed any of the hostages. And no, threatening to blow someone's brains out, when you're in the room with us, does not count as justification for your actions in hindsight. You have cameras, comms, and I believe you even had an AI. There was no reason you needed to be so close. Not with so many people. You were close enough that one of our numbers was able to target you for aiming. That's too close in my opinion. First off, you don't get to demand no explanation for my actions. My actions are driven by what has occurred, which requires context. News flash, every situation cannot be de-escalated. De-escalation is not some magical power that works at every opportunity. You were supposedly beating hostages, then fired on Security, there was no room to de-escalate, nor did it seem like it was in the best interest of the safety of the crew. As I have said twice already, because you fired on security and the decision was made to end this situation before you killed any of the hostages that you'd already harmed. I did not ignore them, but when you've already harmed your hostages and are threatening to blow their brains out, the best course of action in that moment is to remove the threat to the crew, not back off and let you continue harming them. And as I have said repeatedly, all of this only occurred because of your aggressive actions in handling the situation. The hostages were in the back, and on the ground, before security even showed up. They only became human shields when we felt threatened by Security showing up in force, and right in our face. What do you expect us to do when heavily armed people show up and rush us, without attempting to communicate. I'm surprised the new player was able to stop firing after the initial exchange. Which would have been a perfect time for us all to step back and try to open dialogue. We threatened to kill a hostage in order to get you to back off. Which you never did. You just kept pushing forward. Forcing us into a corner, and limiting our available options. To put it plainly, the antags were attempting to put some distance between us so we had a chance for dialogue, but security was having none of it. All of which is completely obvious from your own communications. Whatever your ingame justifications were, you never even tried to deescalate. As soon as you felt there was justification for escalating things, you jumped all over it. All of your communication made in game highlights your focus on winning the firefight that hadn't even started yet (which you can see in the screenshots.). At no point did you ever try to look for another option that didn't involve shooting. There was no legitimate justification for assuming we were going to kill the hostages. You hadn't even spoken to us. All you'd seen was a few roughed up hostages. And if you did think we might kill the hostages, you should have backed off to give us some room to calm down, instead of backing us into a corner where we would be more likely to kill a hostage. You don't get to use us taking human shields as justifications for your actions, when we did so in response to your aggressive actions and demonstrated lack of interest in negotiation.

(Down at the bottom of the post is a plus sign next to "Quote". Click that. Now, whenever you highlight a selection, a little button should pop up that says "quote selection". Press that, and it'll quote the thing you highlighted.) (Were you the HoS when the AI had its laws change to make it believe the HoS had been fired from their position? I believe it occurred on August 26. I think it was you, but I'm not certain of that and would need confirmation.) To clarify, I don't want your whitelist removed. I would prefer that you be placed under some sort of review period and have your actions monitored. However, I believe this is a consistent pattern of behavior on your part, and the best course of action may be to have the whitelist removed. I hate gatekeeping other people's fun, but if this is how you normally approach conflict, then I don't think you're suited for the role. I don't recall if we hit the first person we took hostage. Someone else will have to confirm or deny this, as I didn't take any screenshots of that. Again, beating a hostage doesn't mean we're going to kill them. That's a conclusion you made. As far as you were aware, the worst we'd done since coming on station was to hit a hostage or two. I never said it was unreasonable. I even stated that you were justified in arming up when you had a known armed and dangerous group on the station. You are. However, have you ever watched any TV or movies that have hostage negotiation as a part of it? Did you ever notice how they set up a perimeter? Or, more specifically, how far away from the hostage takers the perimeter is set up? The problem isn't that you set up a perimeter, the problem is where you set up the perimeter. You set it up in our face. And then you kept moving closer and closer. This is part of the problem, and why I asked where your character was specifically. As a Head of Staff why did you approach an armed and hostile group to within aiming distance? You are part of command, and most importantly, you are valuable. You are command and control. What you are not is some grunt with a gun. You shouldn't be in the front, risking yourself, unless it is absolutely necessary. You can do things that no one else can, and putting yourself at risk in such a way is wasteful. The station is large, and there was no reason you all had to be right in our faces. Doing so made it so that we had to worry about controlling the hostages (one of which actually managed to slip their cuffs), and being shot by security. And regardless of the actions we took, or the hostages we butt-stroke, we did not fire until security was within weapons range. You have no one to blame but yourself for that. You put your people at risk, and made no attempt to deescalate. Which is the crux of the matter. At no point did you seem at all interested in deescalating the situation. You gave us no opportunity to roleplay, until you were in our faces. I'd appreciate if someone could check to see what steps Price did take to deescalate, if there were any. Because from what I gathered from the intercepted comms, there was no attempt made to negotiate, or even interest in trying. There was no attempt (that I noticed) of trying to communicate with us over the common channel. They just went from "hostage getting butt-stroked" straight to "gotta kill the bad guys" with nothing in between. Which, if I'm correct about them also being the HoS for that one game I mentioned at the top, would demonstrate a consistent pattern of behavior. And why didn't you take the threat seriously and back off? I'm fairly certain we were trying to get you all to back off, but you wouldn't. You just kept pushing us further and further into a corner, forcing a confrontation. I have a few specific questions about your actions, and I would like you to address them. 1. What steps, if any, did you take to deescalate the situation? I'm not interested in any justifications you might have for why you did what you did. I just want to know what you did specifically to deescalate the situation. If you did anything at all. 2. Why did you enter the robotics lab when we were using hostages as human shields? Why did you continue to put pressure on us when there were hostages in the line of fire? 3. Why did you ignore our threats to harm the hostages, and instead continue to ignore the vocalized and known threat to crew? I hesitate to make assumptions about other peoples actions, but it almost appears as if you engineered the situation to happen the way it did. You gave us no chance to roleplay a negotiation from a comfortable distance. Instead, you seemingly ignored our threats so you could get closer and closer. Putting more and more pressure on us. Forcing us to respond or get rolled. Your refusal to listen to any of our demands directly lead to innocent crew members getting injured. You've mentioned, repeatedly, that you had come to the conclusion that we were a threat to the hostages. However, your actions don't reflect that you actually cared about the hostages. What your explanations do reflect are your internal justifications for discarding the opportunity to open a dialogue (and roleplay) as well as increasing the chances a firefight would occur. No one was dying. No one was in immediate danger of dying. You had no justification for rolling up on us the way you did, and forcing us into a corner. I don't know whether or not it was done deliberately, but you certainly didn't seem interested in deescalating things. You went from 0 - 100, not us. Hostages got beaten! Whelp, guess we gotta kill the hostage takers now. Let me reiterate. At no point did you attempt to open a dialogue with us, and attempt to deescalate the situation. And no, trying to negotiate in our faces does not constitute an attempt to deescalate. Breaking into the room, and invading our space counts as an escalation. Despite claiming to be worried about the safety of the crew, your actions placed the crew in more danger. Instead, your concern about the safety of the crew seems to serve more as justification for taking the actions you decided to take, and discarding negotiation completely.

This is largely irrelevant, because your concern shouldn't be about possible injury, but with their possible death. A hostage will survive a butt-stroke or two, and they honestly have no one to blame but themselves for not complying with the big scary people with guns. However, their chances of survival seriously diminish if they're caught in the middle of a fire fight. There was a specific reason I cuffed all of our hostages as my very first action (I was the borg). It was to discourage heroism, and discourage antag aggression in response. I am well aware of the reputation of both antags and security, so I took that step in order to prevent that. Hell, at one point I had to put on another pair of handcuffs, because someone had managed to slip out of them while we were trying to figure out what Security was going to do. I only recall a brief exchange before things went off, and after a closer examination of the screencap I realize I was in error in my original post. Bishop did aim at security, however it was at Szekzhekh. Also, the two apparently aimed at each other, with Bishop aiming first, and Szekzhekh aiming back, presumably triggering Bishop's aimed shot. Which then triggered Szekzhekh's. (Additionally, not to put Bishop on blast, but they were new. Very new. They probably didn't realize that what they were doing meant they wouldn't have any control over when they fired. Which, leads into my next paragraph.) But this speaks on why I made this post in the first place. Your actions as Head of Security were too aggressive and unfit for someone holding a command position. Your actions directly led to crewmembers being placed in harms way. I don't know about the rest of the mercs, but I felt threatened by Security attempting to surround us and gain firing angles. Particularly because I had been paying attention to your comms, and noticed a distinct lack of interest in negotiation. At one point you (I'm assuming you are the player for Marc Price at this point, and if this is in error I apologize) specifically said "Engage them if the hostages are not in your line of fire." You then made the ridiculous logical leap of "If they're beating them, they'll kill 'em." And, as I mentioned above, I specifically went out of my way to handcuff our prisoners to discourage a shootout. (Screen caps are in the link.) Simply put, your words and actions directly led to the endangerment of the crew. You put the mercs under an extreme amount of stress by surrounding and crowding us, even entering robotics at one point. You also demonstrated an unwillingness to negotiate through your own words. If anyone showed restraint, it was the mercs. Because we didn't immediately open fire when you breached robotics, and instead attempted to retreat into the tunnels. Then, presumably, the AI shut the shutters (seemingly unprompted by the way), splitting us off from each other. Which, tactically was a sound decision. From security's perspective. The hostage we took into the tunnels? They didn't appreciate it as much. Particularly when they were shot in retaliation for your supposed actions (supposed, because I don't recall actually seeing you order that). I already addressed this in my first paragraph. What indications did you have that the hostages were being beaten for fun? We were retreating into the tunnels because we were surrounded, and you even eventually breached into the room itself, putting further pressure on us. We had no other choice. You literally were putting our backs against a wall with your actions. And you know what they say about cornering a wounded animal. We had actually demonstrated that we weren't interested in killing the hostages. All of them were handcuffed, and relatively unharmed. As I said previously, a butt-stroke or two won't kill anyone. You had no justification for thinking we might kill the hostages. We had taken so long just getting into the station, that you spotted us immediately. So you had no prior knowledge of us, or our tactics. I only recall the one exchange between Bishop and Szekzhekh. If another shot occurred I don't recall it. Playing antag stresses me out, so I don't always track everything well. I am open to being convinced. However, your comment of "one fired at us," (instead of "me") leads me to believe you were not shot at. As for the incident with the shell, I don't know that I really blame you for that. Like you said, it wasn't obvious they were a shell in the first place. However, this brings me back to my point about your actions needlessly putting the crew at risk. Aside from the brief exchange, we hadn't fired any shots. The hostages were.. relatively unharmed, and cuffed. Hell, we even had them laying down at one point. By the time Blondie and I made it to medical, security was not there. Well, there was one cadet being treated, but that was it. The shooting only happened when security barged into medical. Again, without attempting to negotiate. As for what happened afterwards, I am partly to blame for that. When I saw security charge into medical, I immediately assumed we'd have a repeat of what happened in robotics. So, I attempted to fire some smoke (note the attempt to use non-lethal devices again). However, when it didn't work, I made the erroneous assumption that the grenade launcher had smokes. Needless to say, it did not. The syndicate cyborg is very non-intuitive by the way. I'm not sure I ever managed to get the damn gun to work. As I said, security was not there. Hence, the entirety of medical was essentially our hostage. We had guns, and they did not. I was specifically talking about this round in particular, and if I said otherwise it was a mistake. If you point it out to me, I will edit the original post to reflect that. You left us with very little choice. Listening to your comms showed a lack of interest in negotiation. Through your actions you made the people with hostages feel threatened. It is your actions that cause the firefight in science to happen. You were completely justified in arming yourselves heavily. What you were not justified in, was showing up in numbers, and attempting to back us into a corner. Security is a joke. Both IC'ly and OOC'ly. People joke, in character, that they are more worried about what security will do to them, then they are what anyone else will. And this is an example of why. You showed up, uninterested in attempting to deescalate things or negotiate. You arrived, armed to the teeth, and backed the people with innocent crew members as hostages into a corner. Hell, just the other day I experienced security fire into the medical lobby, with the only two doctors inside, just so they could kill a skittering changling. It's this sort of behavior that discourages more people from becoming antags, as well as discouraging people from joining security in general. It certainly is for me at least. Honestly, we were a fucking joke that round. Two of our members, one of which disconnected before we even get to the station, were new. We took over an hour to get inside, and nearly popped our lungs because someone tried to vent the airlock when no one had suits on. I fell down a hole because I don't know how jetpacks work, damaging the borg before we even entered (never was able to repair that damage). Eventually we find an airlock, and waste more time trying to get in. Eventually we give up, and just dock at arrivals. By this time, we'd already wasted over an hour of the round. We finally get inside, start heading to science. Find someone in the lounge above dorms, and take them hostage. I immediately put them in cuffs, for reasons I've stated already. We drag them with us into the elevator, at which point we've already been spotted. Rush into science, and start taking hostages in robotics. More cuffs. Get them in the back, and on the ground, so they're out of the way of the shootout we're expecting to have with security. Because, again, we've been listening in. Security arrives, and starts taking up flanking positions, within easy sight lines of us. You breach robotics, and are warned off by Blondie. You ignore them. We start backing towards the tunnels. I think half of us get in, and suddenly science is on lockdown, and we're split up. Blondie and I take to the tunnels, to attempt.. something. Eventually get to medical. Rush to the GTR, and spot our comrade on a stretcher. We try to get to them, but security barges in, rushing us, again. Oh, and it's a robust dionae, so OOC I'm like, "tough fucker, better do something". I have thermals, so I attempt what I'd thought of since the beginning, and use smoke to my advantage. No luck with the smoke dispenser. Maybe the grenade launcher has them? NOPE. That's a frag. Figure, fuck it, we're already in too deep. I just fragged both of my teammates. Might as well go all in. Chonk chonk. Two more go out, and after that I shortly die. Again, knowing what I know about security, and the messages we'd intercepted, I was under a fair bit of stress. So I don't recall everything that happened. However, from the screencaps I did take, I don't see any attempts on security's part to talk to us. Just Blondie and Luke warning you off. Presumably, receiving only silence and armor in return. However, I'm not certain on this point. I would be interested in a more detailed log, because I don't ever recall you attempting to communicate with us before breaching robotics. To sum it up, whether intentionally or not, your actions directly lead to the endangerment of the crew. You demonstrated a lack of interest in negotiation, and by extension roleplay. You jumped to erroneous conclusions without any evidence to support them. You do not get to make assumptions about our intentions, and then cry fowl when you place us in an extremely compromised position, and we react accordingly. We tried to deescalate by retreating into the tunnels, but you wouldn't let us. You forced us to engage in a firefight we did not want by refusing to give us room, and time, to react. Hell! I don't even know what we wanted! That's how much of a clusterfuck we were, lol. Another thing. I am curious where you were during all of this?

BYOND Key: Lordnesh Game ID: b8Z-dCqb Player Byond Key/Character name: Marc Price (Head of Security) Staff involved: Issue was not ahelped by me specifically, but the other mercenaries did so. Reason for complaint: I believe the player of Marc Price has demonstrated their lack of ability for the role of Head of Security. This round they seemed completely uninterested in roleplaying with the antags, and more interested in killing us, as well as the innocent crew we'd taken hostage. As was demonstrated in the chat logs (link below). We'd had several hostages, safely behind us and away from security (a fact they were well aware of), but they were completely uninterested in negotiating. From an IC perspective this demonstrates a gross lack of consideration for the crewmembers they're supposed to protect, and from an OOC perspective demonstrates their unwillingness, or disinterest, in roleplaying with antags. And that was just from our first encounter. In our second encounter, whether ordered to do so, or working off their previous mandate of "kill the intruders, even at the cost of the crew", security charged into medical (I don't know if Marc Price was there at the time or not), which we'd essentially taken hostage, unconcerned about the innocent medical staff caught between us. Admittedly, at this point I committed a minor mistake by firing a frag grenade at the Dionae that charged us, when what I thought I was firing was smoke. After that things quickly descended into chaos, and medical got shot up. But none of that would have happened if security had bothered to give us time to react and roleplay. Instead they just charged in, which, from our previous encounter, we were justified in interpreting as a threat. The logs clearly demonstrate that security was well aware that, not only did we have hostages, we were also armed. At one point, before things really started, one of security fired off a shot. However, we held back, figuring it was a mistake. Despite repeated mentions of there being hostages, at no point did anyone seem genuinely interested in pulling back and attempting to negotiate. Instead, they pushed in, putting significant pressure on us to react as our choices of responses became more and more limited. Which demonstrates Marc Price either had no intention to do so, or was unable to exercise command/influence over his department. Considering the casualties that occurred as a result of this, most of which were caused by security, and not the antags, I believe Marc Price should either have their whitelist removed, or be placed under review (which action should be taken will largely depend on any past issues, imo). https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UKJAUNFnL4sQl3SJKTp9c1yzRrVoG_C7S2rKdiy5zyU/edit?usp=sharing Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? I did not. The other mercenaries said they had, and I was still able to interact in the round. So I left it to them. I did ahelp after the fact, to see if I could get any information on what had been done as a result. I only received vague answers as a result, and so I decided to open a complaint on the forum, as was suggested. Approximate Date/Time: Sept 5, 2020 around 9 PM my time.

From my experience they're a generally good roleplayer, and not a fan of metagaming. +1 Togetha Foreva

I agree with this whole heartedly. I haven't been playing antag for too long, but there have been a multiple instances where, seemingly random people, show up out of nowhere with super sophisticated tech and stomp all over my non-robust ass. There was even a round where myself and another antag were just starting to make our move, and got immediately shut down by random sec mech number one thousand three hundred and thirty three. I generally don't make a habit of supporting gatekeeping, but I'll support it in this case. +1

I had two more things I would like to say. Positive things, since most of my comments have been more on the negative side. Firstly, despite my issues with the process in general, I have no issue with niennab, the person who interacted with me for both applications. They were both professional and polite in our interactions, and I have no issue with them personally. Which is why I made this thread a suggestion, and not a mod/dev complaint. I do not believe they declined my applications maliciously. My issue has never been with them personally, just with the process as I see it from a new player's perspective. Secondly, the reason I have been so adamant about this topic, is because just how upsetting it was in comparison to my other experiences with this community. I have genuinely enjoyed my time in this community, both in game and off. People have been incredibly helpful in the various discords, and the two times I've "bumped heads" with mods I was treated with professionalism (even though I disagreed with them). Which is why my experience with the whitelist was so shocking. Despite the ultimate decision made about my suggestion, I will more than likely continue to remain involved in the community.

What is the purpose of a whitelist? The purpose of a whitelist is to filter out undesirable individuals. Why is it important to filter out undesirable individuals? It is important to filter out undesirable individuals because they negatively impact other people's experience. Who are undesirable individuals? Undesirable individuals are anyone that, through action or inaction, cause other people's experience to be negatively impacted. Trolls: people that derive personal enjoyment from the negative reactions they receive as a result of their actions. They are not here to have fun, they are here to ruin other people's fun. Uninformed: people that have little to no understanding of the lore, and act in ways that violate the lore, thereby disrespecting the time and effort people put into creating the lore. Inexperienced: people that have little to no experience with the lore or roles. Perhaps they desire the perceived power, or perhaps they simply overestimate their own abilities. Powergamers: people that simply want to take advantage of certain mechanical advantages inherent in a role or species. The lore aspects are an afterthought, rather than the point of the character. Toxicity: people that always seem to get into heated arguments or complain incessantly. What is the purpose of whitelisted roles and species? The purpose of roles and species is to provide incentives to improve your knowledge, and experience the game/lore in a new and novel way. Some people are completely fine with being a standard human without any large amounts of responsibility. However, some people are not. Some people want to experience new things, or struggle with the responsibility of running an entire department. I would like to think I adequately summed up the core points of the topic being discussed. Some things are a bit broad in scope, like "uninformed", as that is an inherently subjective category. However, for the most part I think everyone can agree with what I've laid out. Now I'll briefly sum up my experience so far to ground what I say, and then offer some observations. In my first app I was denied, which, I won't argue with. It was objectionably barebones. However, that is in large part due to the way I roleplay in general. I don't generally create characters, and then play them. I create a character, and then discover their idiosyncrasies through actual roleplay. Esther Crane and Kerstin Renard are perfect examples. They originally started as characters created for the sole purpose of filling a role in medical. They were a blank slate, until I started playing them. As I did so, they gradually developed a personality through interactions. Crane is a young mouthy young woman that is vibrantly obnoxious, and Renard is calm and collected right up until shit starts hitting the fan. They didn't start out that way. I gradually discovered their personality through roleplay. I say this to explain why my first app was so bare bones. Honestly, filling out the app put me outside of my comfort zone, and I really struggled with it. However, I did have some issues with how it was handled. As I've mentioned in previous posts, when I was asked questions, and provided answers, I received no feedback. Nothing other than silence, until I eventually received the message that my app had been declined. What I was expecting was a bit of back and forth. What I received was apparent disinterest. I looked at other apps, and saw that other people had been asked questions, and given answer, and then been asked more questions. That wasn't what I got. What I got, again, was silence. My second app, and the one I do take issue with, was much better. I talked on the discord with someone, and they gave me a kernel of an idea. I sat on it, and gradually molded it into something I found more interesting. Then I started writing. While it isn't as good as others, I would like to think I did a decent job of it. I included several bits of lore, and created what I thought would be an interesting character with a past worth talking about. What I didn't write about, because I didn't realize it would be so relevant, was in character details. Details that you would normally find out through in character interactions. Things like how they felt about their past, and why they did certain things the way they did. I responded with the answers that I had already come up with, and again there was silence. I have a very dry sense of humor, so in my response I spoke a few times jokingly. Which, has apparently been taken as me treating this entire thing with little to no consideration. In my second app I was declined for several reasons. The story was not grounded, but I wasn't told what parts or why. My answers to the concerns brought up were not satisfactory. Again, I was not told which ones specifically, or why my answers were unsatisfactory. I was a new account. This is a completely arbitrary measure of someone's acceptability. Just because someone is new, does not automatically disqualify them. No community feedback. I was not informed this would strongly influence my acceptance/denial, or given a chance to seek out such feedback. And lastly, and most galling, was that I have a sense of humor. That I didn't give them the respect they felt they deserved. But all this is largely irrelevant, because as they said themselves, they'd pretty much made up their mind before they even bothered to ask me anything. I sat there for days waiting to receive any kind of feedback. I answered the questions posed to me, but was not asked any follow up questions, and my answers didn't even matter. I was not informed how my answers were lacking, or what parts of my story were not grounded. I honestly believed my second application would be approved without much issue. I felt that I had demonstrated that I had a decent understanding of the lore, and that I had created a character that fit within it. However, it was not good enough, and I was not told why. I was not given the opportunity to defend myself as a roleplayer, or my story. I was dismissed for being new, and not pestering people to leave feedback on my app. And I was also judged for lese majeste. It's difficult to just say "do X" to improve the situation, because the fact of the matter is that this entire process is almost completely subjective. What I'd like to see is more communication, and more opportunities to fix the things that are found to be lacking. However, I can't do that if I don't know what they are. I also hesitate to suggest things like, "replace the devs," because I am new and I don't know them all that well. I don't know if this is a case of prejudice based off the fact that I'm new, or if I created a character that did fit within the lore, but they personally found disagreeable. I don't even know if I committed some gross misstep through ignorance. All I do know is that I was declined an opportunity for reasons that seemed completely arbitrary, and didn't seem to take into consideration what I had to offer. As I talked about in the beginning, the point of a whitelist is to filter out undesirables. In what way am I an undesirable? Did I get a part of the lore wrong? Does my character not make sense given the context? How have I interacted with others in Discord, and in game, that would label me as someone that intends to negatively impact other's experience? Have I demonstrated a habit of power gaming? Am I toxic? What is more important to the overall community? That I write a fully fleshed out and satisfying story, which is also a subjective measurement, or that I'm strongly invested in the community? Either in game, over discord, or on the forums? TL:DR More communication and transparency about what is found to be lacking in an application More consideration placed on out of character aspects, rather than the ability to write a fully fleshed out backstory. Does the backstory make sense? Does the character make sense? More opportunities to correct the aspects found lacking.

I realize that, and I will be including some things in regards to that in a bit. I just need to write it out.

To put it another way. I feel that the current emphasis for whitelist is too strongly influenced by creating a perfect story, when I feel it should be more influenced by the role player's personal character and willingness to learn. Because that's what really matters. That's what they whole point of the whitelist is for. It's to prevent people from just creating a slap dash character so they can take advantage of in game mechanics, or just general shitty behavior. But again. This is from a new player's perspective

My purpose for creating this thread still stands. I understand why the whitelist for species is in place, that's never been an issue for me. My issue is that the requirements to get approved are too high, which actively discourages new players from fully investing themselves in your community. I've been playing steadily for almost a month now (probably at least 4+ rounds per day), and sometimes the server population isn't very high. Which is a result of several different factors, however, one of which is bound to be new player retention. And I'm speaking from my experience not only as a brand new player, to this server and SS13, but also as someone who has experience introducing new people into a different kind of community. New player experience is very important, if you want to have a healthy amount of growth in your community. And it is from that experience I made this thread to raise what I felt was an issue. I won't lie and say a small part of me didn't hope this would get my app a second look, but that wasn't my purpose in creating this. As a new player, and someone who has had an immense amount of fun playing on this server, I find it regrettable that the requirements for whitelist are too strict (imo). I feel actively discouraged from applying, and no longer have an interest in applying for any whitelist in the future. I'm here to have fun and enjoy myself, not satisfy the whims of a mysterious group of content gate keepers on metrics that are not entirely clear. Because that's what it feels like from my perspective as a new player. I feel that I was denied, because my story didn't satisfy the personal requirements of certain individuals, and also because in my comments I didn't treat the entire thing as "super serious business." Not based off my personality, or my behavior in game. Not based off the attitude I bring to the game and community, or my contributions to helping other new people like myself. And I feel these things should matter so much more than my ability to perfectly convey a story to someone's personal satisfaction. I feel that, while not perfect, I did an adequate enough job to display a decent understanding of the lore, as well as create a character that made sense in the context of the story. But apparently it wasn't good enough, and that seems much more important than my personality, and what I offer to your community. Sitting for several days, stressing over whether or not I'll satisfy the gatekeepers is not fun, and not why I'm on this server. I'm here because I value the community, and the desire to be a semi serious roleplay server. And the whitelist, as it stands in my opinion, is a barrier to fun. This entire experience has been entirely unpleasant, and I have no desire to subject myself to it again.

I accepted the first denial without complaint, because it definitely wasn't my best work. Even though I felt mistreated and ignored. However, the second time I did take issue with the results. Because I noticed a pattern of behavior. When asked questions, I was ignored. When told how I could improve, all I got were vague statements that told me nothing. This is a problem, because who else has had this experience, and lost interest in your server as a result? I'll be honest. As much as I love the server, and particularly medical, this is really putting a dampener on my interest. I still intend to play, but I don't know if I'll be sticking around in the long run. Particularly not when I'm treated this way. *Even writing this is giving me massive amounts of anxiety.

And as I said previously. I don't want to write a fucking novel just to play a game in a way I find most enjoyable. I have no interest in stroking someone's ego, just to express myself the way I want. I also have no interest in being judged, when the person judging me doesn't bother to take the time to get to know me. I just want to have fun, and contribute to the narrative.

My "questionable remarks" were tongue in cheek, because any story is by design deliberately engineered to be interesting. Every single aspect of a story is crafted. Which is what I was alluding to. The events in the story played out the way they did because that's how I designed it too. I designed it too be interesting, and in order for that to happen certain events had to occur. We're dealing with a fictional universe. Literally everything is by design. What really upsets me is that in both of my applications I was essentially judged based solely on what I wrote in the application itself. In the first app I responded to the questions asked of me, and I was completely ignored. Just dismissed out of hand. In my second app it happened again, but differently. I responded to the questions asked of me, and my answers didn't even matter because they'd already made up their mind. I wrote this thread to inform you that an aspect of your community is incredibly restrictive, and outright discouraging. Particularly to new players like myself. I have had nothing but wonderful experiences, both in game, and in discord. And it saddens me that I am unable to express myself the way I wish, because I was unable to satisfy some arbitrary, and unclear, metric. As a result of this I no longer have any interest in the character I was attempting to create. Nor do I intended to make another attempt, or make similar attempts for other species. Not only because I feel that it is inherently unfair, but because this entire ordeal had caused me nothing but anxiety. Anxiety as I see other applications get approved, while mine sits there ignored. Anxiety while I wait to see how they'll respond to my answers, only to have my answers be COMPLETELY FUCKING IRRELEVANT.

I understand why the whitelist is a thing. I don't have a problem with the whitelist itself. I have a problem with how it's implemented. I was asked clarifying questions, but my answers were ignored, or irrelevant. Part of the determining factor, according to them, was because I didn't pester anyone to visit my app. The other, more galling reason was simply because I'm new. If they had bothered to take the time to ask me questions, I could have told them that I've been playing heavily and consistently for the past several weeks. My behavior has been impeccable, aside from one recent slap on the wrist during one of my rare times as antag. The problem, as it appears to me, is that there seem to be additional requirements to getting approved. Requirements that are not listed, and not explained. I was not informed about what was wrong with my app, not in a very detailed manner, just that it wasn't good enough. While I would never go so far as to say my app was perfect, but I did put in a lot of effort into writing it, all while operating outside of my comfort zone. Additionally, some of the questions pertained to IC aspects, and not the backstory itself. Which, I feel, should be something people should have to discover through roleplay, and not just hand fed though a text blurb. Please read my second app. I wasn't given any constructive criticism. Just things along the lines of "some things can be improved". That's not constructive criticism. Like I said in the original post. Both times I did not feel I was given adequate attention, but simply dismissed out of hand. My first app they even bother to reply to the answers I gave. The second app they as much as admitted they'd already made up their mind before they even asked me anything. How is this fair?