dessysalta

AI art as a system, economically, is cruel. As I said, it is an empirical observation that you would only understand if you attempted real artistry. Past that I refer you back to my point about "don't be a cop if you just want to shoot people" and "you can still participate in the field if you want, just don't use the Torment Nexus to do so" and especially "artists get all sorts of criticism just for existing, if you crumble because people tell you not to use an unethical tool then please don't feel obligated to come back" because the amount of things that you're expected to bounce back from is going to be a lot worse than whatever it is you think we're (as in, the artist community) saying. But, sure, I'm bullying these people out of artistry plain and simple, or something. There's no nuance to it at all, especially not to the thesis material above. I don't care that it's in a niche circle, something I went over in my many points that you appear to have glossed over. These things have impact It doesn't matter if you're a corporate executive or a random schmuck on the street, using AI at all is what makes people think it is profitable. If we all collectively agreed that it was shit and didn't use it then I guarantee you next to no one would use it. That is not up for debate. Plus, reducing Aurora to that and not putting any interest or value on anything or anyone inside of it is very low. I am saying DO NOT USE THE ETHICALLY GREY TOOL THAT MARGINALIZES AN ENTIRE FIELD if you want to do anything creative. So yes, if applying that everywhere means I have to do it as equally on Call of Duty as I do on some cult on an engine from the 90s, then I am absolutely calling those people lazy. Once again, this is not something I'm saying ad hominem or just because I feel like being mean today. This right here shows that you have completely missed the point, and moreover are willing to excuse everything I just said about AI generators just because I made an observation that you don't happen to agree with—which is irrelevant in any case, because I assure you if you ask anyone who performs art as more than a side project (and even most of the people who do) you will hear the exact same things for the exact same reasons. If strong words or calls to action are somehow offensive or cruel to you in such a way that you cannot take any of what's said in the way that it's supposed to be taken, especially in circumstances that more than warrant these kinds of terminology, then you are part of the problem. I am not going to "be nice" or nod my head and pat these people on the shoulders when they are, without exception, funding and furthering a piece of technology which I say again, is aiming to remove me from existence. It has happened before. It will happen again. These are problems that should be dealt with cordially, but with a firm tone of voice, something I am certain I have embodied in my last few statements. I sincerely hope you do more research in the creative field and find people who can better explain to you why AI is inherently a plague.

Off the top of my head, Port Antilla. I know either Vaurca or Diona lore have generated images for a couple teasers in the lorecord before, also. If anyone has any other examples, feel free to chime in. To Lily, I have very strong words to use in your direction because I take offense to what was said, but I will do my best to remain civil for the sake of brevity and because I think there's a disconnect here. Let's break this down piece by piece. To preface, I am not able to force you—or anyone else, for that matter—to take any actions regarding this at all. What you do in private is not my business, and if you were to, say, create a project that involves some close friends in private I would neither judge nor question you. It is not my place, it is not my business, I don't care in confined instances or spaces like that. In fact, I imagine the effect on me or anyone else would be pretty minimal if that were the case. However, this is on the internet. This isn't just any place on the internet, mind you- this is a server that has a large, cult-like playerbase, and up until recently would have about ~100 recurring players with 900 more who would occasionally show up to boot (going off Discord statistics and my own knowledge, at least). The population not withstanding, this is still a public space that advertises itself as such and makes an effort to take in new players as much as possible. This is not "in private" nor does it deserve the benefit of the doubt just because it's a "personal" endeavor; if I endeavored to set up a table and bring my own frozen meals inside of a restaurant I would hopefully be shooed away from the premises for the insult if not the loitering, regardless of if I paid for the drinks. In the circumstances you're using and applying the word "personal" you seem to be conflating the idea of autonomy with the respect for the choices made with it, especially in a setting where others are able (and to a degree have a right) to criticize you. To be clear, I think AI image, sound, etc. generation is extremely novel and is probably one of the coolest advancements of the last decade. It raises the bar technologically speaking and is what garnered a lot of interest for AI inside of other fields, and to your later point, yes, it has inspired people to partake in the creative process. It is without a doubt something incredibly impressive that should be worth celebrating. With that out of the way... The issue begins when you factor in the software again churns meaningless images that have no creative direction. There is no thought, no feeling, no intention behind the process, there is no workshopping, effort, or anything else of the sort. You can say whatever you want about how "refining it takes time", or maybe "using the write prompt can take hours", or even "I want to make something at all", to which I will inevitably shoot back: "Have you tried artistry?" I don't mean monkey-see-monkey-doing artistry, I mean genuinely attempting to compose a song on FL Studio, trying to draw a figure on Medibang, going out to your local Hobby Lobby and making woodcrafts, any of that. If you have, you should understand that it doesn't matter how many "takes" anyone does with artificial intelligence, be that from tweaking prompts, changing poses, designs, whatever, it's never going to hold a candle to the sheer amount of effort and training that's required to just be afloat in the art field as a career. My point of people who generate images like that being lazy is not an opinion, it's an empirical observation. The people who use artificial intelligence to click a button and completely disrespect the artistic medium existentially, threaten livelihoods, contribute to an already steadily-rising power cost and expansion into all sorts of geological areas we probably shouldn't be meddling in just for the sake of "muh anime image" are completely, unequivocally lazy in regards to drawn art. I'm not saying you have to spend art on artists to do anything ever, I'm saying it is a choice and if you choose not to make anything yourself or commission someone else, but rather make use of a software whose entire reason for being nowadays is to undermine and demean the artistic medium, you are a lazy person (at least, you're lazy in that specific field). Worse, you're putting that laziness not into actually becoming a creative, but taking a shortcut that can, will, and has left people out of jobs. The people who do that want all the payoff of art with none of the risk and effort. If they would just go to Walmart and buy a $3 notepad and a $2 pen they would learn faster than they think with one of the countless tutorials online. I am an artist. I would like to do art as a full-time career. I cannot do that if people value me less than a website that makes soulless slop in half a second. It doesn't matter if it's done in a niche circle of 100 people or on display in front of millions by corporations, the harm is still the same, and much like how seeing normal art can inspire people to make it, seeing AI art can inspire people to generate it. After all, it's cheaper, faster, and "close enough" to what they envision in their head. No, we shouldn't turn people off from being entrepreneurs and creatives, in fact I think we should have more of them all of the time and I'm not being facetious. I, obviously, have a great deal of respect for anyone who wants to dip their toes into creation of any kind, be that something physical or mental. I think everyone should be given the resources and acceptance to pursue that kind of career if they want and be able to make a living wage even with a hobbyist mindset. If you want to try any art in any form at all, I am rooting for you, and I will be there with you on your journey if you so wish. If, however, you decide to come into any topics of expertise within that broader field and try to take shortcuts, break ethical guidelines and rules, or especially fund something or someone who will do more of that, I'm not going to defend you and I don't think anyone in their right mind should. If you choose to do as little research as possible, blatantly ignore the many written and verbal warnings from everyone, use a tool that is known to be controversial and then post your creation anywhere thinking you should be immune to criticism just because this is your "first experience with art" then by all means you are not prepared for any kind of creative endeavors due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how and why art is made in the first place. You also need to accept that even with real artists, they're subject to that same kind of gatekeeping and criticism and the mark of an artist is not just mindlessly creating until told to stop, but rather being able to push back against conflicts and continue creating even when you're told or called many vile things just for picking up a pencil in the first place. Art is reliant on emotion and thought. It literally could not exist without it. If your sole goal is to make an image that looks like something you thought of, then you are not making art. Even the most diehard pro artists who don't get out of bed for less than ten grand a piece are still influenced by their experiences, all of what they've seen and everything they've ever felt. You, and I cannot stress this enough, cannot be an artist if you do not have a drive to actually create something with thought and feeling behind it. I'm not gatekeeping art—a stick figure or a single stroke of crayon has thought and feeling behind it. Pressing a button to put a bunch of pixels on the screen that looks vaguely like a person or place does not. If you crumble just for being told to put in effort into creating something or to at least value the people who do, then I wouldn't be the first and only person to say you shouldn't explore that medium for the sake of everyone involved's sanity. If you just want to shoot people, don't be surprised if people tell you that you shouldn't become a cop. But even this argument relies on the idea that other people, or more specifically my post above suggest that if you make AI art you just shouldn't create ever. That is never what has been said. If someone has said that I assure you it's a generalized statement that has very obvious subtext, whose core is not exiling these people from art just for some instance of laziness. I don't agree with generalizations like that, but I disagree with people who fail to understand that with much more vehemence. It has always been do not use AI art to create something when you have so many other options available. I disagree with people who can't be constructive, but at the same time we should be coming together to understand what's meant over what's actually said. Once again, if you take "do not use this tool that threatens my field and hurts me fundamentally as a person trying to earn a living wage in a profession I love" as some mythical barrier to prevent anyone from ever dipping their toes into artistry, you don't belong in that field. Even so, don't let that stop you from trying to be in the field, just don't use the Torment Nexus in order to exist within it. I am begging you. I am absolutely within my right to make these assumptions regardless of whether or not it's an over-generalization, which it very much is not. Hell, corporations aren't doing it from a purely soulless place aside from maximizing profits, and I'm still going to do it to them because it's close enough that splitting hairs over what remains a very real issue is pointless. I lack the physical skill to create some art pieces. I am barely alright at shading, I can hardly do satisfying line art, I don't even have a tablet and I'm horrible with levels. That frustration and inability is what pushed me to keep trying. I have filled countless sketchbooks and will fill so many more because I know what I want to reach and I'm not there yet, and I probably never will be. That is the human condition in every single profession taken seriously. My inability to code didn't stop me from submitting PRs, I either asked for help or did what little I needed to. At a point I was curious about cooking and wanted to try making something myself, and I did, and it was delicious for my family and I. I'm not even in art school, but I'm going to be very soon and that is because I am inadequate. People who care about art don't care that they're bad at it at first...well, people who care about any profession don't. If you're referring to disabilities, I definitely do sympathize and I would never, ever suggest that someone's involuntary inability should be limited from art. In line with that, there are many routes for physically disabled or incapable people to pursue art, such that suggesting they should reduce themselves to a piece of technology that just does it for them is more of an insult than telling them not to try in the first place. The majority of people with disabilities who ask for accessibility options aren't asking for their hands to be held but rather a way to perform at least somewhat on par with the average joe. Those people don't need to be more infantilized and marginalized than they already are. This is the bare minimum. This has been the bare minimum for years until this tech suddenly popped up out of nowhere, Going back to my police officer analogy, not shooting people willy nilly was also the bare minimum and we didn't learn anything from shooting everyone, and the people who did still did plenty of harm in shooting people in the first place. See my point about burning people off creative exploration for more on this, I guess. What do you mean it's not fair? It's not fair for my and anyone else's work to be reduced to a picture, with the argument everyone should be able to get without any difficulty at all. I am just as much entitled to my opinions and observations on something that, contrary to popular belief, is a very real problem. I'm not even being hateful against the people who use it outside of that very specific case of calling them lazy and the lowest of the creative medium because, I reiterate, they are not creating. That just isn't what's going on. I say again: If you come into an artist's field of expertise and you make 2 grand a month on Patreon just because you put together a half-baked tech demo that uses exclusively AI art (something I have seen multiple times with my own eyes), you are lowering my value as an artist and you are insulting the creative process. No one would consider denigrating you for it because you actually made the character with those tools, and that's still not even in the same vein as hating AI art because A real person with a pulse made the sprites you're using for your character, with the understanding they can and will be used in many other contexts You can actually creatively tune the colors, change the markings, all sorts of things Generally, you're playing dress up. Dress up is art given the customizability and way for people to add new markings or loadout items. You actually put effort into the creation of the character, getting the hair color and gradient just right, wrote the flavor text to accompany it and sifted through the countless loadout items to make sure this was your character. Even if you don't want to pick up a pencil or do pixel art, you didn't resort to AI art and you still made use of any tools at all to make your character. We could argue that putting a bunch of assets together isn't "real" art but I think that would be a silly argument that gatekeeps something that has no business being gatekept, especially given the above points. I do take issue with what you say about "creative input" because you cannot convince me transmogrifying "1boy, male, blonde hair, smirk, smile, red jacket, turtleneck, blue visor, short beard, brown eyes, eyeliner, scarf, toned muscles" into a bunch of colors is anywhere near as soulful or creative as physically making the best character you can with the tools you have, even if it's some random F2P sci-fi roleplay server. Being an asshole is using strong language without reason and thoughtlessly attacking people and not their ideas. I hope my willingness to break down what you've said and neither completely ignore you nor outright insult you speaks to my character of being kind, as well as my previous wording in the massive wall of text that precedes this.

I'd like to address both of these points because I think they go hand in hand, with some much-needed clarification on my end: it's true that the lore team is (and should be) able to decide exactly what graphics are required and when/to what extent, but nobody's arguing that the lore team should be artists or be able to perform artistry. In my initial argument I meant more that making an attempt at art yourself, purchasing art, etc. are more preferable and ethically sound than generating AI images of any kind. In any case, projects like these don't deserve to be visualized just for the sake of it, there should be intention behind any art at all used on the wiki or elsewhere (something I'll get to later on). It is a luxury to have any art in any medium be created for anyone, and utilizing something that only furthers the already-oppressive narrative that artists are optional will only run this project and other creatives into the ground as time goes on. In short: Good things are not made with convenience inherently. I have mixed feelings on this, and as a foreword I'm not suggesting anyone on staff should necessarily spend money on the project that is Aurora. I am however suggesting that specifically choosing not to do so when you have the funds available, when the interest is there, and instead opting to generate AI images raises questions of exactly how important the project (and to an extent the many fans and creators of Aurora and SS13 in general) is to whoever is generating them. This isn't to denigrate the already monumental efforts of staff on every team and front, but I would imagine asking ChatGPT to pad out a wiki page or come up with a new corporation or planet when you could do it yourself/pay someone to do it for you would be just as insulting and belittling to the process and the message. Something I'll get to later in this reply is art contests that we've seen in the past, admittedly with my fairly narrow view of Aurora's lifespan. I'm not a savant when it comes to this, so I can't comment on it extensively other than the idea of how copyright law works in my head, being licensing and the like. Although, that's kind of a bureaucratic and financial headache depending on just how deep it goes. I think there's a lot to cover in this section, so bear with me. AI art is cheap, mass-produced, and neither iconic nor intricate; it lacks the human touch that is needed to get those points across. The crux of my argument isn't that specifically, but it does loop back around into SS13's history and the actual act of making a server, lore, sprites, etc. for it all. Most devs on indie projects like this, especially SS13, are working for free already and funnel profits from their time at work into getting the thing moving. I imagine the server costs for Aurora are a not-insignificant amount of money, as are the various licenses, sounds, and sprites/art acquired over the years, at least the ones that weren't made pro-bono. In spite of the obvious costs and difficulties associated with not only keeping a server up, but actually afloat with an interested playerbase, these projects (like Aurora) exist and continue to exist, even outside of the SS13 format. I know I'm probably parroting things you already know, but as a creator and artist who consumes other creations and art pieces, I need to emphasize that the longevity of a project is tied to appeal and genuine creatives or scholars will look at something like Aurora and admire it for the messages and depth that was placed there with intention and discretion. The reason Aurora hasn't died yet is because of the fundamental differences in development and choices it makes along the way compared to nearly every other server that tries to fly the flag of "HRP" and "immersive lore". Most of the people on the staff team have tenures of several years and don't fold under the pressure that comes from a wildly ambitious project like this one. That sort of dedication isn't something broadly overlooked and for all the hate staff gets on the occasion, even those people can see and admire the drive to create and stick to something. Now, of course, this is wholly undone by using anything that is specifically designed to mass produce something with zero creative spark or intention behind what it creates. Aurora is not, has never been, and never should be a medium for that kind of content and behavior to get its foot in the door, lest we in five years see a steep decline of creatives bothering to do anything for Aurora and the existing staff team either work to further that mindset or give up on what was a very unique and soulful project to be replaced with robots. SS13 is a breeding ground for awesome community-driven projects and indie dev shenanigans, but it very quickly goes from being a noble and awesome thing to work on it for free to one that's shitty and lazy by reducing any aspect of your server to AI art. You know how many genuine creatives will tread where there's AI art? I do, it's not very many. Aurora would be losing players, artists, and torching its reputation (and it still kinda is given there's still AI art in the wiki in more than one place). I mentioned in one of my initial rebuttals that convenience does not make for good creations, and putting it into perspective here, the people who started SS13 servers were probably not 40 y/o self-employed developers with a safety net and countless contacts and experience. They were mostly people working full time at some 9-5 or other possibly soul-sucking job that doesn't make use of the degree they studied for, that or they were high schoolers with pet projects for funsies. Back in the 90s, Exadv1 used a bunch of shitty, convoluted tools by today's standards in order to get something halfway working, and only when the source code was leaked did other people have that same spark of creativity to recognize the potential with something like SS13 in the system of BYOND. That's some real dedication we're talking about, especially when most methods nowadays revolve around the (thankfully much more intuitive) interfaces and spaghetti code to make things work in this absolute trainwreck of an engine (from what I've heard at least—I'm not a coder). For all that I do to bitch about how Space Station 14 sucks doodoo ass and completely undermines what makes SS13 unique and fun, it's pretty topical and honorable that they wanted to at least try and recreate it, and in doing so made their very own engine for handling all of the shit in that "sequel". I can't vouch for how they just take the sprites from /TG/ and do nothing to actually emulate what makes SS13 a roleplaying game, but I can definitely say the coders are, as always, the ones picking up the slack. To be honest, if price and convenience were to be prioritized to such an extent, I imagine the Aurora devs would have swapped over to Godot or Unity ages ago and only ever hosted the server on their PC a night at a time until they got some kind of donation or sponsor that funded a $4 server to host on in India, but I would hazard a guess to say that the people who have been developing for Aurora the longest (Matt, Arrow, etc.) chose the medium for what it is and not because they're too stubborn or lazy to port or even attempt Aurora somewhere else, going so far as to refuse donations or to set up any kind of crowdfunding. Although there is something to say about how modifying a game or code can be easier than developing it from the ground up, Aurora has had so many hours and so many features sank into it that I can't in good faith consider that argument to be at the table. Okay, that's a lot of words, and I hope the meaning is taken there from the absolutely massive pile of them, because there's not much else to say on that end. So, let's go visit that point I made earlier about there being other options even for the desperate developer to take in order to include or create something for their video game. Community Art, Contests And Feedback you know I mentioned chatgpt earlier and honestly blocking out headers like this makes it feel like it wrote it, but i like blocking my shit and i do it all the time on gdocs, sue me These have been explored more than once over the years, or constantly if we're counting the Developer role spriters, enough for me to bring them full-force into this debate about using AI art. Simply: why not more art contests? They've been wildly successful in the past, doing great things for both the server (receives art) and the creators (inspiring them to create), with the various Unathi flags and other lobby art pieces done for funsies and accepted in a heartbeat. We've got canonization applications which can include art, we had a channel dedicated to suggestions for Unathi fashion, if we want to be really pedantic and stretch the idea as thin as humanly possible we could suggest how some events and their outcomes were choose-your-own-adventures with volunteers or crewmen being able to decide how things played out and what exactly would be added to the wiki in some cases, which in turn would fuel more artistic endeavors from staff and fans. I still occasionally swing by to see if my buddies or mutuals on the dev teams need some new sprites or artwork, provided I have the time. So, I reiterate: Why not more of that? Why not send out a ping every so often, even one that you get from opting into a role maybe? There doesn't need to be prizes, there haven't been in the past to my knowledge, but there could be if you wanted to sweeten the pot I guess. Yeah, spriting is a lot easier and more common than detailed or anatomically correct and shaded artwork, but again, if we can see people pulling up to make lobby art and flags and planets, we can definitely see them showing up to take a stab at wiki art. Now, I understand the stigma of asking for free art, and if done too often it could get stale quickly, so this might not be the perfect solution but I do think it would do wonders both for the development team and the people who want their artwork featured in the Aurora lore or anywhere else in the project. god that header really does feel like chatgpt doesnt it. is it because i see it so often? these comments are my way of keeping my sanity throughout writing this btw jesus chr You mentioned an artist dev role, I know you said it as an offhand comment in reference to an argument that hinges around it not existing, but hear me out: what if it did? Spriters, coders, artists? Why not lump in spriters with artists? Yeah it'd be weird as hell to see it become that and could cause some confusion if the coders ping for a spriter and get someone who does portraits, but that seems like a position that would get filled near instantaneously. They've got artists on other servers, and they're unpaid too, just doin' it for the love of the game (both as in SS13 and like the phrase "love of the game" btw). I know LVS is kind of a sore subject around here, but having her on the lore team was pretty rad for as long as it lasted because she drew all sorts of shit just for fun. Why not make a role exclusively for that? Don't take this as me grabbing you and shaking you down for the role, I know you said you'd discuss it with the rest of the head devs, I'd just like to emphasize that it's a cool as fuck decision if you choose to make it. Crowdfunding i ate some cold little caesar's pizza today. i hate how the tips of their slices are always mushy these days. god i want Hungry Howie's or Domino's or even Papa John's, that prick I know this is also a long shot, and so I'm not giving it a bunch of space because it's fairly simple and I don't know to what extent the rest of the devs care about it other than not having a system like this in place for the past ten years. Crowdfunding. It's on the tin. Set up a Ko-Fi or more likely Patreon or make an account on Venmo or Cashapp or something whose whole reason for being is to fund artistic endeavors. This comes with its own risks and can seem stingy, so again, not a perfect solution but it's still showing up to the argument because it's an option. Closing thoughts: I like Aurora. I mean I really like Aurora. I like creating for Aurora, I like seeing the new things the devs come up with, I like being involved with gimmicks and side plots in game. I like everything that goes into the creative process in every aspect for Aurora and I have on more than one occasion aspired to be a spriter or artist or lore dev or even moderator. I'd guess other people like Aurora too, given it has a routine playerbase and active devs that care a bunch about the same things. Bluntly, if AI art is pursued more than it already has been, especially in a project where corner-cutting comes once in a blue moon, I'm going to like Aurora less. I would like Aurora more if there wasn't any AI art at all, and as a creative I understand that even "bad" or "inexperienced" art is much better than going to Stable Diffusion and typing a good two lines of text for a bunch of random colors placed in the same shape of a picture. I would really appreciate it if more people were to take AI and its ramifications seriously, because the less people who do, the angrier I get and the more zero-tolerance I become because of the slop-loving idiots who straight up just don't give a damn (not that this is Aurora, I would just really rather this never is the case). Part of the reason I'm going so hard on it is because it's only getting worse and worse and I'm a firm believer we should chain it unconditionally before we so much as think of trying to keep it around and what rules are to be in place for it. It just works. TL;DR AI art sucks, fund artists, hold art contests, consider an artist developer role, consider crowdfunding, and again, AI art sucks.

Elena and Rosemaria are always a pleasure to interact with and I love seeing how they influence the round. I'm pretty confident Juneau can write an IPC. +1

They've explained the current AI-gen content on the wiki as being from a time when AI generation was more novel than offensive, and as much as I understand that point of view, I've also seen people use AI in their FT or post it every now and then in a channel or two. It's very much progressed from a neat piece of tech to a very real travesty that's been affecting jobs and the perception of artistry as a whole. I'll be frank, AI-generated anything sucks, period full stop. It is soulless, annoying, and used as a scapegoat by the laziest and lowest people of society because they can't be bothered to pay 15 dollars for a sketch (or better yet, try their hand at it themselves). Since it's conception it has only been used to hurt and nowadays you can find it in so many massive projects that make real money off that predatory behavior. At it's best it's used for short concepts and then refined by real people—but I can't remember the last time I've actually seen that, especially not from any big-name company or video game. AI art is not mandatory. Not everything needs visuals. Even so, we already have visuals to be represented in game, countless artists or coders who work on the game completely for free, including fan-artists and people dedicated enough to commission artwork of their characters or even for the lore team. The server would be better off without it and I'm getting tired of looking at it or trying to explain to my friends (especially fellow artists) that Aurorastation is good despite having a good few instances of AI nonsense in their wiki, or the occasional player which seems to give as much of a damn as the average unemployed twit with a computer they got from Hobby Lobby. I'm surprised it's even still up in more than one micro instance on the wiki. Again, at the time, new fun thing to try out for shits and gigs. Nowadays it makes me depressed. I hate seeing it.

A more feasible idea could be to alter the regulations regarding off-duty crew and volunteers. Some sort of stipulation that off-duty volunteers are still covered by insurance and may receive bonuses, but have some kind of increased scrutiny (AKA "if you do this outside of Odyssey you better have a really damn good reason"). I dunno what exactly would or could go into that, but it feels like a pleasant middleground. That said it still relies on an XO, but we've relied on XOs in the past during canon events anyways. I doubt it'd be a huge deal.

3-5 minutes seems good IMO, yeah. I don't really care how long the loading time takes so long as we have that amount of time to ready up after the fact. Makes it easier to take a break, get food/water, etc.

I do agree with this. Obviously my paranoia for the future is similarly not the ultimatum, and I do agree that going from the Aurora to the Horizon was a huge change for the better (even if I wasn't there for it). I don't have much else to say on the matter of this because I really do take your point—I just feel I would be amiss not to spend as much time on the other side of things as I can, because the worst case scenario is always possible. Similar here, I agree with what you're saying and honestly can't help but reinforce it. With my skepticism out of the way, I also really want people to understand that the NBT is the NBT, and even if not the same as we have now there will still be chances to indulge in it and get something out of it, and I know I'm going to have fun with Aurora even if it turns into something else entirely. This is actually on the roadmap last I checked, which I think is (duh) a good idea. Not much to say other than that. My argument doesn't hinge on knowing how to fire a gun, it's being able to use it specifically in a stressful situation where your life is at risk, where in this same setting you might never actually get a chance to shoot a gun outside of that. Taking classes, owning a gun off-ship, being a hunter, etc. are all reasonable things a character can do, but there's a massive difference between someone who's only fired a gun recreationally versus someone who's done it in defense of their own life; taking a few shots at a shooting range is nowhere near as terrifying as it being the dead of night, pitch-black, seeing a figure in front of you in the darkness and barely managing to hit shots ten feet in front of you in service of that—or being on a ship that's on red alert, where people have died, and some monstrous threat is around the corner. The majority of civilian characters, I think, should be "average dimwit with a gun" and not anywhere remotely near the realm of trained, see again the crew armory etc.

I think, generally speaking, letting the crew have knowledge of gun usage is a double edged sword in which I'm mostly against. My biggest concerns being echoing Popper said; janitors shouldn't be smoking grems with an AK and the like, I'd even take it further by saying it shouldn't even be a last resort. If you're working on a space ship and not either command or security (minus some exceptions like certain med workers etc. depending on background) you almost certainly don't have extensive firearms training, nor should you be willing to fire a rifle at risk of venting or otherwise damaging the huge metal death trap where a lot can go wrong. Most people who would know how to use a gun (minus veterans obviously) most likely wouldn't have used it in a real combat situation, under stress, when they're hungry, etc. and even if we do let people have a general knowledge of how guns work I would like to see a vast difference in them (the untrained joe) versus security/trained forces (people who train in high-intensity situations for a living, with some nuance again depending on corp or background etc). More civilian characters, and I mean truly, "I've only ever done desk work/clerical work/hard labor for 30 years and I value my life greatly" people should exist. Even with the removal of the crew armory there's too many characters in engineering and service that are like "Combat laser rifle? My favorite!" and manage to gun you down instead of being inaccurate or, better yet, roleplaying that out. I didn't like the phoron scarcity because despite its potential for nuance and interesting ordeals, it turned out to be a macguffin device. There wasn't much purpose behind it aside from making an already-mythical space fuel more important and by extent normalizing a conflict that debatably had no reason to exist if not for that narrative foil. It would be fine as a background addition that only occasionally showed up, but the way it was played meant it was the single-most important thing the Horizon was and would continue to be doing. The scarcity had no effect on the players and for that reason it was an intangible, hard to understand and harder to appreciate story beat. It made for some minor interactions—obviously when you salvage a ship and find 50 sheets it's a big deal—but it had no actual persistence whether you found one sheet or ten thousand, with no real price or bonus associated with it. It opened up a couple of items if you involved the machinist or science, but those could usually already be made with their starting supply of phoron or otherwise weren't notable. The phoron scarcity if done right would involve constant changes in the economy, persistent rewards or deficits, and perhaps the most laborious, updates from the lore and gameplay side of things. It wouldn't need to be shown on ship every step of the way, but there would have to be more instances of finding or losing it and seeing real consequences from either. The pirate mini-arc we had was actually really cool in this regard, in that it represented just how serious having that much of that fuel can be, and that the Horizon isn't untouchable- but whether or not the Horizon lost it or kept it was never going to affect it, let alone the Spur outside of bad publicity and maybe a few pay cuts. I actually think that this would make for some really interesting character concepts. We have operations already doing mechanical stuff, so if there was a way to split science among the different departments (hell even in just locations) it would both encourage some really solid roleplay as well as make things like theoretical engineers/machinists, or security weapon scientists who are in charge of gauging the rifles and making sure they're all in shape/in stock for the Warden to use, or bridge crewmen who specialize in exploration and the like. I think the biggest loss would be xenobotany and xenobiology- not sure where we'd put both of those, that and I'm not sure what the Research Director would even become, which makes it a bit of a headache. Being independent, or at least somewhat independent (and not the flagship for reasons that've already been stated) would definitely make for more opportunities to do whatever. Dreamy's suggestion of the Hedgemaze I think has some kinks to be worked out, but ultimately I think would be a net positive in regards to everything from character creation (to a degree) to actual gameplay and events. I do say "to a degree" because the conflict Aurora breeds and the limits you have placed on your characters is important, and seeing it lessened or even just changed would need to be done with TLC lest it become another Shiptest- something I talked about extensively in that thread and that I still like in concept, but I don't like how that server has zero nuance or character limits aside from "you can't attack anyone for the most part". Worst case scenario, we have extremists that don't feel like extremists, and characters that are a hollow shell because nothing actively threatens their livelihood (or maybe I just don't like the gameplay loop there seeing as every ship does the exact same thing and I'm not being hyperbolic). Once again echoing what Popper said about that setting; something with ties to corporate but isn't as hands-on, with an opportunity for independent contractors alongside the rest would be a perfect implementation. Some misc thoughts: Timeskips are whatever, I would rather they not put characters in their early 30s into their mid 40s, but I can't say I care that much about it outside of a few characters whom I know wouldn't be on the ship for more than a few years (see: Ungnyeo, my ZI, hell even Kira depending on what the timeskip entails and what happens to the Horizon). There are some serious concerns raised above about people making new characters over the course of the next 3 ish years and I think those are important to look at if any timeskip at all is going to occur. If a timeskip isn't inevitable, I would start planning as early as now what to do with the Horizon population and come up with contingency plans, arcs or entities that happened or existed in the background, etc. anything that makes even the biggest changes less jarring. I don't like the idea of a military setting, Bay has that covered, I don't want drill instructor characters or military LARP. Ex-military PMCs add so much more nuance and I think have the potential to be less of a powertrip. Similarly, I also don't like the idea of warring nations to breed conflict because I'll be honest man, I'm tired of seeing Solarians and Biesellites/Gaddies quip at or beat each other. If it's going to be the case, I do not want any origin restricted or disallowed for play because of it. The TCFL and Raskara cultists don't often show up or get to do anything, and Exclusionists and Universalist priests fill a niche you can't explore for OOC reasons. If we're gonna have conflict I want that conflict to actually be represented on ship with the major company (SCC or otherwise) not really giving a damn who they hire to a point so long as they do their job; this obviously implies rearranging a few things, and so if it doesn't happen I understand, but please let me play more extremists if this is going to be the case. This particular paragraph of mine was all over the place, so take it with a grain of salt please. I would also like to address this: Okay, so I see your point, I'm agreeing with it- it's running up the flagpole and I'm saluting it, but this absolutely cannot be the end-all-be-all of player-driven characters or narratives. Characters have a time limit, sure, but who's to decide some arbitrary amount of time is ideal or "enough"? Characters are as much the players as they are people, and the appeal of playing those characters for long periods of time is there comes a point where they aren't just a character, they're a person, with actual years of experience, development, or even just income from their job. Sure, maybe some people would feel better about putting their character to rest either literally or metaphorically once they're out of ideas, but others will look at the incredibly, incredibly, in-cred-ib-ly diverse and encompassing setting that is Aurora, with all of its events, lore, other characters, economics, I could go on- and keep going to see how it would affect that person. This isn't a book we're writing, it's setting for a gameplay environment. Some questions are raised by this line of thinking, probably the biggest one being "why would a character with access to premium healthcare, an insane living wage, free room and board, and countless benefits you gain just by virtue of working on the flagship of the biggest megacorporate alliance in the known universe just up and leave? Oh, well I guess their 'arc' is done and they had a couple years of screentime (where they might have done nothing at all notable), time to import a fresh slate without any interactions or reason for being aside from muh new character". And also, that's a huge, huge change if you only play one or two characters. Some of these characters have existed since the Aurora and they are terrifying to be in the same room as because you just know they were there. What are you going to tell those players if it's a choice between changing their character, whom they've developed for a decade, possibly on a fundamental level to match a change they might not have rooted for, or straight up never playing them again? How about characters or even just players who knew them? "Your character's done, make a new one"? I think that your point has merit and I agree with it in broad strokes, but it being phrased in this instance as "wrap up your arcs everyone, you have [x] amount of time" is going to suck no matter what. The arcs of the characters are based on the setting that's being written and its developments, that's how it's always been- there just hasn't been an instance to my knowledge wherein a change supplied some characters with outright deletion or prevention of use. I guess there was that change in Aurora's medieval era where headcanon contractors were disallowed, but I don't think that comes close to the potential of what can be done here. Obviously no matter what, I have hope for Aurora and trust the devs and its players to make something beautiful and interesting (hell they've been doing that for what, 8 years?) and I hope the passion with which I'm writing this conveys how excited I am to see the NBT.

I'd like to say that while I mentioned in game mechanics and events primarily, I mentioned lore first and that counts news articles and the like. Yeah, the game is abstracted enough that torturing or killing a guy isn't that awful, can be pretty comical sometimes, but if you want to know where that guy's from you'll probably read an arc or set of articles that aren't exactly something you'd show to your boss. Even the more "removed" instances of it like IPC zombies on BitByte are pretty harrowing given the implications and way they're written. What about when the DPRA or SRF genocides or executes people in lore? When the TCAF canonically beat the hell out of civilians? Do we gloss over that because it's not a mural of blood and guts? I don't even think the argument can be made about it being "gore" because it's at best a spray of blood, not cat brains and eyeballs and teeth hitting the other side of the trench—if I remember correctly it's not even blood, but an orange flash of the bullet going through the helmet. It's at worst Call of Duty cover art. I understand this is subjective, but considering all the arcs past and present, major themes in lore, player subplots and newscasters, especially when all of those are written off as being "realistic" and requests to change them are denied with the exact argument we see here ("we have darker stuff so who cares", or less related "conflict is good", which I agree with broadly), I think drawing a line at this is more a headache than anything progressive. That and I really do agree with Lily. If this was one of 40 artworks we'd have a very different perspective and I doubt we'd be having this conversation. E: Schwann and Outboard are also correct in the sense that it's not a picture or idea translating directly to someone getting brained, it's a piece of artwork with composition and emotion behind it. You can't look at the focal point of the image and reduce the piece to just that (or worse, in this case, to just the idea). Why is there a catperson here? This is a futuristic setting, how come they're in a trench? Who are they looking at? Why might they be smiling? Why are they getting shot in the first place? Where would they have to be to get shot like that, how did they and maybe even their species get there? Those questions are what get people to look it up and have the confidence to make a whitelist, potentially going on to write lore for them. Can we do it in a softer way? Maybe, but it lessens the impact, dampens the message, and at least in writing there's been darker stuff chosen to be included.

I'm not really sure about this one. Compared to all the things that can be experienced in SS13 proper (as in, the gameplay and plots) being domed with not even a particularly comical spray of blood seems par for the course; we have much, much darker themes and real events that occurred in lore or events and if anything I personally think it's a good primer for what's to come. Otherwise, they're going to be more surprised when they see slavery, drug trafficking, public executions, sexism, speciesism, xenophobia, genocide, police and military brutality, transphobia and homophobia, supremacy, class disparity- the list goes on and on, and we see and experience all this either in-round or in canon events. I personally witnessed a guy get hacked apart during the New Blades, Old Wounds arc, live execution style.

Was the HOS for an ungodly long shift themed around synth liberation. Played it straight with us (the antagonists), acted with appropriate concern for the ship as well as fear for their own and others' lives. Didn't stonewall it and judging by their comms and attitude, delegated properly. This shouldn't really be surprising because it's Cash, but from our side of things they're good. Will edit once I get to play under them. E: After playing a round under them, I echo what strawberry said to a degree. They enable gimmicks just fine, but enforcing the regulations and to what diligence is somewhat up in the air; I was told to get a statement but not to detain them unless they actively tried to run or resist (which means just detain them in the first place?), and I specifically was told to document the changes after the fact when other officers were explicitly told it wasn't necessary, it ended up being glossed over anyway. It got harder when factoring in things I had witnessed first hand being ignored, combined with conflicting orders. On the plus side of things, they didn't let anyone in their team take the fall and backed them up during misunderstandings. I have mixed feelings about the application. I want to say they're just getting the hang of things, and so I would push for an extension rather than a denial. As before, will update as I gather more experience.

Had a fun command set with Aiden this round. Communicated clearly and effectively, and was as intimidating as a captain should be outside of that lmao. +1

As someone who's played with all of Tones' characters (and helped them write this app LOL) I obviously can't but attest to their quality of writing and ability to make real, charming characters (something I say a lot, but mean it especially with Tones). I think they're amazing at making hand-crafted characters with exceeding amounts of nuance and personality, and have no doubt they'll be able to write an IPC. +1