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Re-enabling IPCs to be allowed into the Cult with changes.


Chada1

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Posted

Personally, I don't care much for the lore explanation. It can always be handwaved and changed considering the ambiguous nature of Nar'sie. I don't mind IPCs being crippled such as the OP suggested. You can still help the cult without cult spells. It seems doable and would still include them in the cult. It just isn't going to be fun if you completely strip their ability to interact with cult. It will pretty much shoehorn the cult into killing/disabling them. There's a difference imo between adding depth to a species and completely excluding them from a cooperative antag type.

Trouble occurs when multiple IPC's spawn as cult and will require admin intervention in order to solve it.

Once a race is mechanically unfit for a game mode then it's time to either exclude them or change the game mode, and the easier route was taken considering IPC's are still a vast minority.

Posted

He makes a good point, if the round spawns 3 cultist who are all IPCs, how are they ever going to progress?


A cultist needs to be able to perform all functions of being a cultist, otherwise you just getting a participation award and stalling the round progression.


Admins should not need to intercede just to make the round function.

Posted

Easier route? Cult rounds with IPC starts have gone off without a hitch so many times before. This wasn't the 'easier route,' this was the 'it's my opinion' route. It was almost never a problem before.


Again, no one's answered my question about what happens to people who have prosthetic limbs or organs. There's an equal case to remove them from cult rounds, since using EMP talismans will effect them.

Posted

Prosthetic limbs can be repaired by the owner of the limb, unlike IPCs, who cannot self heal or repair without outside help, and them being damaged by an EMP also does not result in the death of the cultist who has them, as it does for IPCs. You can die from having a prosthetic heart in an EMP, but if that happens, oh well. Shit happens sometimes, and you can't cover every base. And optional character trait is a much smaller problem than universally shared xeno race traits.


The way things were was the easier route because it involves not caring about design consistency or logic. A number of people in this thread clearly do, even if you do not, but our opinion remains just as valid. "It's rarely a problem' does not mean 'it's never a problem'. The fact that this thread is so contentious is evidence to the fact that your ideas are not the only ones people have.


But, again. I'll reiterate for the third time now. Playing conceptual tug of war is not accomplishing anything. We need to find a middle ground that makes everyone happy, or at least not angry, and stop telling the other side they're wrong because we don't like their ideas.

Posted

Once a race is mechanically unfit for a game mode then it's time to either exclude them or change the game mode, and the easier route was taken considering IPC's are still a vast minority.

 

I made this really big so that people don't ignore this. This statement is good.


Temporary solution: Don't allow IPCs to use blood magic but they can be converted to the cult or use talismans provided to them by other cult members.


Permanent solution: Make IPCs warp into something interesting and distinct from constructs, with different sprites and mechanics to support their corruption.

Posted

Temporary solution: Don't allow IPCs to use blood magic but they can be converted to the cult or use talismans provided to them by other cult members.


Permanent solution: Make IPCs warp into something interesting and distinct from constructs, with different sprites and mechanics to support their corruption.

 

Stopgap solutions are supposed to be short term to keep the game from breaking down, and mean that someone plans to actually do something larger eventually. Right now, we have a perfectly good one that won't cause gameplay issues, in that IPCs just can't be cultists.


Unless there is a plan to make the stopgap progress to something else, with clear goals and plans, I can't get behind this. Cult code is a giant steaming mess, and people don't generally even want to touch it. Who's going to do it?


And why can't we just leave things as they are now while someone works on the project to rework IPC and cult interactions? Not being valid cultist is much more stable than this PR, because it doesn't create potential situations where an admin has to intervene because, for instance, there are only IPC cultists, and they can't make conversion runes.


Because I don't see being a half cultist with crippled functionality as much of an improvement and could cause issues down the line depending on how long we leave it like that. People recently called for the removal of changeling until something better can be done. We can do a similar thing here with IPC cultists.

Posted (edited)

Temporary solution: Don't allow IPCs to use blood magic but they can be converted to the cult or use talismans provided to them by other cult members.


Permanent solution: Make IPCs warp into something interesting and distinct from constructs, with different sprites and mechanics to support their corruption.

 

Stopgap solutions are supposed to be short term to keep the game from breaking down, and mean that someone plans to actually do something larger eventually. Right now, we have a perfectly good one that won't cause gameplay issues, in that IPCs just can't be cultists.


Unless there is a plan to make the stopgap progress to something else, with clear goals and plans, I can't get behind this. Cult code is a giant steaming mess, and people don't generally even want to touch it. Who's going to do it?


And why can't we just leave things as they are now while someone works on the project to rework IPC and cult interactions? Not being valid cultist is much more stable than this PR, because it doesn't create potential situations where an admin has to intervene because, for instance, there are only IPC cultists, and they can't make conversion runes.


Because I don't see being a half cultist with crippled functionality as much of an improvement and could cause issues down the line depending on how long we leave it like that. People recently called for the removal of changeling until something better can be done. We can do a similar thing here with IPC cultists.

 

But this is a horrible way to go about it. This was hardly brought up as a mechanical reason. It was simply "I don't think IPCs should be in this cult that has blood."


People dislike changeling because it's "Murder everything simulator."


And then one day later, "Ooops haha I accidentally removed them but we aren't adding them back because some of us just don't want IPCs to be in cult."

Edited by Guest
Posted

Once a race is mechanically unfit for a game mode then it's time to either exclude them or change the game mode, and the easier route was taken considering IPC's are still a vast minority.

 

I made this really big so that people don't ignore this. This statement is good.


Temporary solution: Don't allow IPCs to use blood magic but they can be converted to the cult or use talismans provided to them by other cult members.


Permanent solution: Make IPCs warp into something interesting and distinct from constructs, with different sprites and mechanics to support their corruption.

 

Corrupted IPC Sprites? Challenge accepted.

Posted

Playing conceptual tug of war is not accomplishing anything. We need to find a middle ground that makes everyone happy, or at least not angry, and stop telling the other side they're wrong because we don't like their ideas.

 

As soon as Cake can make the IPC lore updtae, that should help with a lot of this.

Posted

Corrupt the IPC, so they are immune to CULT EMP's, gain imbued armor and a bigass sword. Essentially, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE. When the cult goes loud, BRING IN THE DARK MECHANICUM!

Posted

Cult EMPs can be made to ignore all Cult members, maybe.


Also, IPCs can be removed from round-start possibilities and yet still be convertable.

Posted

Cult EMPs can be made to ignore all Cult members, maybe.


Also, IPCs can be removed from round-start possibilities and yet still be convertable.

 

I am severely opposed to the notion of "cult EMPs"

And making IPCs immune to EMPs when they are converted to cult.

A EMP (or other basic effects) dont have a distinction between cult or not cult.


EMPs are one of the few weaknesses that IPCs have and we do not need to remove that from them.

Just watch out for IPCs if you use want to use a EMP.

(Like you have to do in every other gamemode).

Posted

Cult EMPs can be made to ignore all Cult members, maybe.


Also, IPCs can be removed from round-start possibilities and yet still be convertable.

 

I am severely opposed to the notion of "cult EMPs"

And making IPCs immune to EMPs when they are converted to cult.

A EMP (or other basic effects) dont have a distinction between cult or not cult.


EMPs are one of the few weaknesses that IPCs have and we do not need to remove that from them.

Just watch out for IPCs if you use want to use a EMP.

(Like you have to do in every other gamemode).

 

But see, we have to have balance trade off. We want to keep IPCs being convertable cultists and we also want to ban them from rune drawing. That has to be somehow balanced, I propose to add immunity to cult EMP, as Narsie's magic shouldn't touch fellow cultists, since it is not regular EMP it is "special magic emp". Also my code foundation for making empulse accept list of exclusive atoms will allow for cleaner code. Wizards already have immunity to their own EMP pulse(after my other bugfix PR will be merged).


Edited: Furthermore making all cultist not affected by their own EMP rune/talisman will also help organics with prosthetic limbs, so it is not just for IPCs. Remember that it is only applicable to cult rune/talisman EMP, any other EMP would still damage anyone

Guest Marlon Phoenix
Posted

Ipcs are still played by players and they deserve a modicum of involvement in a major game mode.


Eldritch abilities do not need to follow known science. Give them immunity.

Posted

The issue is, if you do not give them immunity to their own EMP's, and they can't rune draw, they're dead weight. No cult will WANT to convert such a useless piece of scrap if it'll literally HINDER them, and not do anything better. They'll just sacrifice your soul to the Glorious Dark Lord Nar'Sie and make you a construct.

Posted (edited)

The issue is, if you do not give them immunity to their own EMP's, and they can't rune draw, they're dead weight. No cult will WANT to convert such a useless piece of scrap if it'll literally HINDER them, and not do anything better. They'll just sacrifice your soul to the Glorious Dark Lord Nar'Sie and make you a construct.

 

Now he gets it.

 

Ipcs are still played by players and they deserve a modicum of involvement in a major game mode.


Eldritch abilities do not need to follow known science. Give them immunity.

 

You don't deserve anything just from playing a game. If your character can't function in an antag (or any) role, you don't deserve to have game code rewritten to facilitate you. You roll with what you have. Role-playing is like that.


Should we let diona be sec officers and make them get a speed boost for that role, too? You know, they're players too, and security is a major part of rounds. This is the kind of argument you're making.


Now, I someone wants to rehash a new role for IPCs in cult, fine. But adding hasty patches to make them almost work isn't something anyone is obligated to do for IPCs, and I think more effort needs to be put in than this.


v- Also, what Ash says. -v

Edited by Guest
Posted

Ipcs are still played by players and they deserve a modicum of involvement in a major game mode.


Eldritch abilities do not need to follow known science. Give them immunity.

Consider that if they can't be cult then they're the only ones to be trusted in such a scenario.

That gives them plenty of opportunity to be involved.

Guest Marlon Phoenix
Posted

If i cant convert you, then im going to kill you. Thats how the mode works.

Posted

If i cant convert you, then im going to kill you. Thats how the mode works.

 

Just like captains, HoSes, and to some extent, Borg and AI.


They can still be punished for ganking or emping you through a wall. And the IPC can still kill/detain them first.


Nothing is wrong with a conflict having no magical resolution. Sometimes you just have to fight.


And we still have soul stones.

Posted

I fail to see how this was ever an issue in the first place. You can't really apply logic to an eldritch blood cult who's magic is shown to be capable of corrupting inanimate objects and reality itself (cult walls, floors, computers turning into those altar things, constructs, etc etc) and if we're going to get really deep into this, the fact that IPCs can still be soul stoned proves they have something resembling a soul to be corrupted in the first place. It's not far-fetched to assume that the cult's magic is capable of corrupting an unlawed synthetic's programming or, if you're inclined to believe an IPC has one, their soul.


If we're talking mechanics wise, a cultist IPC is at a severe disadvantage in comparison to organic cultists.

[*]Cultist IPCs cannot use EMPs, which is the greatest utility the cult has against borgs, security, and enemy IPCs. Being around a fellow cultist who doesn't warn them before using the EMP is almost a death sentence, especially if the cult has gone loud and robotics is dead/non-converted.

[*]IPCs cannot naturally regenerate wounds like other races can. A cultist IPC using cult magic means that their damage will stick with them unless they have a readily available supply of nanopaste or someone to repair them. If not, then failing to watch their use of cult magic (even so much as clicking on your talisman without actually doing anything causes damage) will wear on them and eventually make their limbs malfunction. Practically a death sentence if they find themselves in a pinch.

[*]IPCs can manifest ghosts, but due to the damage over time for having one summoned, is a very bad idea for them, meaning another common cult tactic is out the window for them.

[*]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think cult armor overheats IPCs as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.


The only benefit an IPC has I can think of off the top of my head is that they make for great stealthcultists, as even before the PR no one really knew IPCs could be converted in the first place, which had the consequence of cultists straight up murderizing IPCs without realizing they could have been converted. Any damage they take can simply be waved off by running around, or completely repaired without any lasting scabs or healing skins for security to meta.

 

You don't deserve anything just from playing a game. If your character can't function in an antag (or any) role, you don't deserve to have game code rewritten to facilitate you. You roll with what you have. Role-playing is like that.

For the longest time IPCs rolled with what they had. It's never been an issue until now, all of a sudden, for whatever inane reason that got brought up to encourage a hasty PR. They don't deserve to have game code written to facilitate them, so how is it justified having game code rewritten to exclude them on the opposite end of the spectrum?

Posted

This isn't really about how viable ICly it is for them to be converted, it's about how viable it is mechanically.


With all the problems they have being a functional cultist, I'd much rather they be destroyed or soul stoned than converted for the sake of trying to stealth cult with a cultist that can't do anything a normal cultist can do without hurting themselves in difficult to fix ways.

Posted

All I really have to say to that is... So what? If you'd rather kill or soulstone them rather than bothering to try for a conversion, then more power to you. You do what you want if that's what you think about cult IPCs, but just make sure you can justify it to staff if they bwoink you because you wanted to powergame your way to victory rather than create an interesting round.


Vaurca can be fucked over by cultist EMPs as well, and a Diona's only real niche as a cultist is to park themselves next to the engine and spam cult ghosts until the station dies, otherwise they get BTFO'd by anyone with a flash or plant killer. Being a cultist IPC has it's trade offs and it has it's benefits. Upon converting an IPC, the cult gains a minion extremely resilient to brute damage that is unable to be memed by tear gas and can eat ERT bullpups for breakfast at the cost of being vulnerable to EMPs and unable to spam cult magic on a constant basis without some fallback method to repair themselves. If the IPC can't pull their weight in the team and play to their advantages and mitigate their disadvantages as much as possible, that's the fault of the player and not the species. If the cult's victory relies so heavily on said IPC pulling their weight, then the cult has been too busy murderboning and hasn't spent enough time converting, and so the fault lies with them and not the species.

Posted

All I really have to say to that is... So what? If you'd rather kill or soulstone them rather than bothering to try for a conversion, then more power to you. You do what you want if that's what you think about cult IPCs, but just make sure you can justify it to staff if they bwoink you because you wanted to powergame your way to victory rather than create an interesting round.


Vaurca can be fucked over by cultist EMPs as well, and a Diona's only real niche as a cultist is to park themselves next to the engine and spam cult ghosts until the station dies, otherwise they get BTFO'd by anyone with a flash or plant killer. Being a cultist IPC has it's trade offs and it has it's benefits. Upon converting an IPC, the cult gains a minion extremely resilient to brute damage that is unable to be memed by tear gas and can eat ERT bullpups for breakfast at the cost of being vulnerable to EMPs and unable to spam cult magic on a constant basis without some fallback method to repair themselves. If the IPC can't pull their weight in the team and play to their advantages and mitigate their disadvantages as much as possible, that's the fault of the player and not the species. If the cult's victory relies so heavily on said IPC pulling their weight, then the cult has been too busy murderboning and hasn't spent enough time converting, and so the fault lies with them and not the species.

 

I guess you make some valid points, though it could have done without the condescending implications that converting IPCs is required to make the round interesting and doing otherwise is powergaming. IPCs don't even experience pain, as far as I know, it seems to me more likely I'd be powergamed by them for trying to conversion rune them repeatedly than the other way around.

Posted

I guess you make some valid points, though it could have done without the condescending implications that converting IPCs is required to make the round interesting and doing otherwise is powergaming. IPCs don't even experience pain, as far as I know, it seems to me more likely I'd be powergamed by them for trying to conversion rune them repeatedly than the other way around.

 

Think about it this way. If you find yourself in a locked room with an IPC handcuffed and at your mercy, you can go about the situation through the purely analytical mind of a person sitting at a screen calculating risk/reward factors on whether or not that IPC should be killed or converted, and you decide they're not worth the risk and kill them, then you ultimately introduce nothing interesting to the round by that choice, even if you think you're helping the cult's growth in the long run. Or, alternatively, you can look at it through the mind of a blood-worshipping, deranged cultist and see that a body is a body and go for the conversion regardless of any reservations you may have OOCly, since a cultist's primary goal is to spread their god's will as much as possible. In return, you spice up the round by introducing another antagonist who will go on to interact with the station and other antags for better or for worse. And even if they choose death over conversion, you can still soulstone them and make some use of them.


As for conversion runes, the mental anguish probably far outweighs the physical damage it causes on the body, and since IPCs are largely logic-based machines with sentience, it's fair to say the conversion process negatively effects their brain in some way. If an IPC wordlessly resists repeated conversion attempts (provided you aren't just wordlessly stunning, restraining and converting them with "JOIN OR DIE" first) then you can probably ahelp that as that'd likely fall under powergaming. Don't quote me on that, though. Not every staff member's definition of powergaming is the same.


And remember, as with any antagonist, your OOC goal as a cultist shouldn't be to dominate the station and win through any means necessary, it should first and foremost be to make the round interesting, even if you do end up losing terribly.

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