Nerfing Parapen Stun

[BurgerBB]

I don’t understand what the development team doesn’t get about 3 pages of -1s, several coming from staff.

Listen to the community. If they don’t play, you don’t get a server.

 

I've learned from polls done that forum is not the absolute voice of the community, and this should never be used as an argument.

Thirst changes. Nearly 100% of people in the thread were absolutely opposed to the thirst changes. A poll that was open for a month and it shown that over 66% of people supported the thirst changes.

Mental medication. Same thing; nearly 100% of people in the thread were absolutely opposed to the thirst changes. Again, a poll was made and over 66% of people supported the mental medication changes.

I'm pretty sure there were more polls done on different PRs and shown very similar results.

[Resilynn]

Are you going to do a poll?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Polls are not an absolute authority. It is bad faith to dismiss the criticism in this thread by implying we are an unimportant minority.

[LordFowl]

His comment was only made in response to a comment that suggested otherwise. Regardless, meta-discussion regarding the various efficacies of political maneuvering to ensure your idea is most successful is out of the scope of this feedback thread, which is about parapens.

[Coalf]

Basing a mechanical change on the subjective opinion that certain kind of RP isn't fun for you is not really a viable defence for why something should be added.

I partially agreed with Arrow in the fact that instant stuns are cancer, however from my experience I have not seen the parapen abused in the same way as flashes, batons, flashbangs etc. etc. etc. This is why I think it's an okay item to have so far, if people START abusing it I'll most likely change my stance.

We don't play like /tg/ because we aren't a /tg/ server. If I wanted to play a /tg/ like server I'd go play on /tg/, not on Aurora. It's starting to look like an agenda frankly.

The AM rifle costs your entire TC budget and comes with a single bullet. The 375 is overpowered and overused because there is no better alternative in the roster, I'd agree on removing it or replacing it with a slightly weaker revolver. Grenades are grenades, simple and effective. If you find an issue about those all I can suggest is "git gud".

In short I'd agree with why Arrow would want to implement it if it were abused. However this project has been created purely because someone dislikes a certain kind of RP with a complete failure to realize nothing about this suggestion would actually fix any of the presented problems.

Sidenote, on the matter of votes, stacking a poll 4 to 1 will lead to majority picking the most MODERATE answer, see the antag event and VP politics which have ended up in the most status quo keeping factions.

[BurgerBB]

"However this project has been created purely because someone dislikes a certain kind of RP with a complete failure to realize nothing about this suggestion would actually fix any of the presented problems."

Absolutely false and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make claims like this in the future. You have a tendency to strawman the purpose of the PR a lot. I've been ignoring it however in previous threads, however it's starting to get irritating. I think it's time to put the foot down.

The purpose of the PR is to remove an easy to obtain instant-stunning feature that has a very real potential to be misused and abused, as well as to level the playing field with the removal of stuns to most non-antag items. This has been made quite clear throughout the thread, and anyone who says otherwise is pointlessly speculating. If we're removing stun-based combat, it absolutely doesn't make sense to keep traitor items that do the same thing, but significantly better.

The philosophy of this is that if you want something as powerful as a stun, you're going to have to work for it. This PR makes it so you have to work for it by finding a way to detain them for 5 seconds before the injection kicks in. The parapen can still be used as a gank injection tool, you just need to put in actual effort if you want to detain them.

[Coalf]

"However this project has been created purely because someone dislikes a certain kind of RP with a complete failure to realize nothing about this suggestion would actually fix any of the presented problems."

Absolutely false and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make claims like this in the future.

 

"Any tool, regardless of telecrystals spent, that allows you to stun people for an extended period of time so you could kidnap them for torture rp, is a ridiculous tool. And what happened there was everything wrong with Aurorastation antags. I would not complain if you actually did something creative. I straight up knew something was going to happen because you were so obvious, yet the most creative thing you could come up with was parapen me, threaten to eat me, and threaten to bomb implant me. I straight up asked you to kill me because you were so boring. I expected something decent but all I got was 2 people who didn't know what on earth they were doing, as proven by the fact that both of you did nothing with your gimmick.

Aurorastation antags have a serious lack of robustness, as proven by Rosetango's post. On other servers you'd actually had to make an effort to insta-stun people, which usually involves breaking into chemistry and mixing the ingredients to do it. If you actually went through the effort of doing something creative and didn't result to boring, depression RP, I wouldn't be complaining. I feel that most of the traitor uplink items are stupidly strong and the fact that they're easy to get isn't making antags focus on actual quality RP more as proven with the many anti-material rifle purchases, .357 purchases, parapen purchases, and of course, grenade box of any kind purchases."

 

The purpose of the PR is to remove an easy to obtain instant-stunning feature that has a very real potential to be misused and abused, as well as to level the playing field with the removal of stuns to most non-antag items.

1) Traitors aren't security, stop thinking of them as such.

2) "Potential to be abused" is a pointles speculation, if this were true the entirety of science should just be deleted due to their high "abuse" potential. Yet you rarely hear about telescience instantly teleporting maxcaps into the AI core. Most likely because rules cover it.

 

This has been made quite clear throughout the thread, and anyone who says otherwise is pointlessly speculating. If we're removing stun-based combat, it absolutely doesn't make sense to keep traitor items that do the same thing, but significantly better.

Blanketing every single mechanic under "Stun based" and "Non-stun based" combat is not good for long term development and quite harmful as a mindset actually.

 

The philosophy of this is that if you want something, you're going to have to work for it.

Yep.

 

This PR makes it so you have to work for it by finding a way to detain them for 5 seconds before the injection. The parapen can still be used as a gank injection tool, you just need to put in actual effort if you want to detain them.

Okay question, if I have someone detained why would I be injecting them in the first place at that point. Even in your manifactured perfect scenario the parapen is an extra step.

If I have someone detained enough to do what you described, I'll have already dragged them into maint.

[Bauser]

Aurorastation antags have a serious lack of robustness

 

So you're... trying to nerf them more........

I see...............................

...............

.....

Have you stopped to think that the fact that antagonists already lose all the time means that they don't need to be weakened any further? That maybe the meme (to use language you're familiar with) of the round depending on one person being 'robust' instead of allowing them to express some creative freedom is what needs to end, instead?

[BurgerBB]

"However this project has been created purely because someone dislikes a certain kind of RP with a complete failure to realize nothing about this suggestion would actually fix any of the presented problems."

Absolutely false and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make claims like this in the future.

 

"Any tool, regardless of telecrystals spent, that allows you to stun people for an extended period of time so you could kidnap them for torture rp, is a ridiculous tool. And what happened there was everything wrong with Aurorastation antags. I would not complain if you actually did something creative. I straight up knew something was going to happen because you were so obvious, yet the most creative thing you could come up with was parapen me, threaten to eat me, and threaten to bomb implant me. I straight up asked you to kill me because you were so boring. I expected something decent but all I got was 2 people who didn't know what on earth they were doing, as proven by the fact that both of you did nothing with your gimmick.

Aurorastation antags have a serious lack of robustness, as proven by Rosetango's post. On other servers you'd actually had to make an effort to insta-stun people, which usually involves breaking into chemistry and mixing the ingredients to do it. If you actually went through the effort of doing something creative and didn't result to boring, depression RP, I wouldn't be complaining. I feel that most of the traitor uplink items are stupidly strong and the fact that they're easy to get isn't making antags focus on actual quality RP more as proven with the many anti-material rifle purchases, .357 purchases, parapen purchases, and of course, grenade box of any kind purchases."

 

The purpose of the PR is to remove an easy to obtain instant-stunning feature that has a very real potential to be misused and abused, as well as to level the playing field with the removal of stuns to most non-antag items.

1) Traitors aren't security, stop thinking of them as such.

2) "Potential to be abused" is a pointles speculation, if this were true the entirety of science should just be deleted due to their high "abuse" potential. Yet you rarely hear about telescience instantly teleporting maxcaps into the AI core. Most likely because rules cover it.

 

This has been made quite clear throughout the thread, and anyone who says otherwise is pointlessly speculating. If we're removing stun-based combat, it absolutely doesn't make sense to keep traitor items that do the same thing, but significantly better.

Blanketing every single mechanic under "Stun based" and "Non-stun based" combat is not good for long term development and quite harmful as a mindset actually.

 

The philosophy of this is that if you want something, you're going to have to work for it.

Yep.

 

This PR makes it so you have to work for it by finding a way to detain them for 5 seconds before the injection. The parapen can still be used as a gank injection tool, you just need to put in actual effort if you want to detain them.

Okay question, if I have someone detained why would I be injecting them in the first place at that point. Even in your manifactured perfect scenario the parapen is an extra step.

If I have someone detained enough to do what you described, I'll have already dragged them into maint.

 

That first post was referring to the example where someone decided to bring up that situation despite it being irrelevant to the thread. I just explained to you the intent of this PR and if you're still continuing to insist that this is based on muh rp after the clarification, then I'm not going to argue with you because I genuinely think that you're only here to get in arguments.

Detain doesn't mean have them in cuffs. Literally inject them, wrestle them to the ground as they deal with them being mute and dealing with halloss. That's what I mean by detain. If you want to stun someone for 20 seconds, you're going to have to work for it. The 5 second delay for the stun is, I think, a very generous nerf and will not remove the the usefulness of the parapen.

[CommanderXor]

I can not in good faith support this suggestion either. I have been both on the giving end and receiving end of parapens. They take a good chunk of your telecrystals and can be stopped by armor. It's one of the few tools that antagonists have that allow them to utilize non-lethal methods - granted it does knock Vaurca into medium crit - and thus allows assumingly non-gank related gimmicks.

To nerf something because of pure dislike for a certain roleplay situation that occurred from them is stupid, and the entire 'instant stun removal' thing can also be debatable. Some things make sense, some do not. Flashbangs, for example, should knock you flat on your ass if you're not protected. But that is not the point of this suggestion. Regardless, -1 for this. I can't support taking one of the last non-lethal weapons/tools a traitor has as it will just encourage gank more.

[Coalf]

That first post was referring to the example where someone decided to bring up that situation despite it being irrelevant to the thread. I just explained to you the intent of this PR and if you're still continuing to insist that this is based on muh rp after the clarification, then I'm not going to argue with you because I genuinely think that you're only here to get in arguments.

Then I misunderstood and I apologise for the assumption. However it's weird you'd speak about your opinions on what robustness is, how boring torture RP is and etc. if you don't want to get into an argument.

 

Detain doesn't mean have them in cuffs. Literally inject them, wrestle them to the ground as they deal with them being mute and dealing with halloss. That's what I mean by detain. If you want to stun someone for 20 seconds, you're going to have to work for it. The 5 second delay for the stun is, I think, a very generous nerf and will not remove the the usefulness of the parapen.

Again, if I am wrestling them to the ground. What prevents me from slapping cuffs on them. The fact is there is no way to justify the usability of the new parapen.

[BurgerBB]

I can not in good faith support this suggestion either. I have been both on the giving end and receiving end of parapens. They take a good chunk of your telecrystals and can be stopped by armor. It's one of the few tools that antagonists have that allow them to utilize non-lethal methods - granted it does knock Vaurca into medium crit - and thus allows assumingly non-gank related gimmicks.

To nerf something because of pure dislike for a certain roleplay situation that occurred from them is stupid, and the entire 'instant stun removal' thing can also be debatable. Some things make sense, some do not. Flashbangs, for example, should knock you flat on your ass if you're not protected. But that is not the point of this suggestion. Regardless, -1 for this. I can't support taking one of the last non-lethal weapons/tools a traitor has as it will just encourage gank more.

 

Parapens cannot be stopped by armor. Only hardsuits and softsuits. And again, as clarified multiple times, it is not being nerfed because someone's RP is shit.

 

Aurorastation antags have a serious lack of robustness

 

So you're... trying to nerf them more........

I see...............................

...............

.....

Have you stopped to think that the fact that antagonists already lose all the time means that they don't need to be weakened any further? That maybe the meme (to use language you're familiar with) of the round depending on one person being 'robust' instead of allowing them to express some creative freedom is what needs to end, instead?

 

Just because their instant 20 second stun is replaced with a 5 second delayed 20 second stun, doesn't mean that antags will lose any more. When I refer to robustness, I'm referring to the skill level of antags and the fact that they have to rely on instant-stunning parapens to kidnap someone and not something creative or bold. Use chloral hydrate and a rag. Get a combat manual and perform a move that wrestles them to the ground or silences their voice. Break into chemistry and mix together chems. Break into atmos and steal knockout gas. Kick them in the dick. Headbutt them. Do something creative.

Antags "lose all the time" (they don't) for other reasons besides their equipment. There are a whole lot of other factors involved which is a discussion for another thread.

[BurgerBB]

That first post was referring to the example where someone decided to bring up that situation despite it being irrelevant to the thread. I just explained to you the intent of this PR and if you're still continuing to insist that this is based on muh rp after the clarification, then I'm not going to argue with you because I genuinely think that you're only here to get in arguments.

Then I misunderstood and I apologise for the assumption. However it's weird you'd speak about your opinions on what robustness is, how boring torture RP is and etc. if you don't want to get into an argument.

 

Detain doesn't mean have them in cuffs. Literally inject them, wrestle them to the ground as they deal with them being mute and dealing with halloss. That's what I mean by detain. If you want to stun someone for 20 seconds, you're going to have to work for it. The 5 second delay for the stun is, I think, a very generous nerf and will not remove the the usefulness of the parapen.

Again, if I am wrestling them to the ground. What prevents me from slapping cuffs on them. The fact is there is no way to justify the usability of the new parapen.

 

As said, parapens take 5 seconds to kick in and cause a lot of pain in the meantime. Cuffs take about longer than that to tackle someone, and have a very high chance to fail as the person can easily resist out of a simple disarm tackle and grab.

[Bauser]

It's funny how all of your changes are massively consequential for gross-level considerations like antagonist freedom and yet every time someone brings up the impact of them, that particular point is "a discussion for a different thread."

Should we go ahead and make that thread? "The Massive Unseen Impact of Burger's Changes On How The Game Actually Plays Out, Megathread"?

[BurgerBB]

It's funny how all of your changes are massively consequential for gross-level considerations like antagonist freedom and yet every time someone brings up the impact of them, that particular point is "a discussion for a different thread."

Should we go ahead and make that thread? "The Massive Unseen Impact of Burger's Changes On How The Game Actually Plays Out, Megathread"?

 

Winrate is super irrelevant on an HRP server and means absolutely nothing to me. Nuke ops shouldn't be nuking the station every other round. Cultists shouldn't summon Nar'sie every other round. Revs shouldn't be killing heads of staff every round.

Whether you win or lose shouldn't matter, whether or not you've actually had fun should. If you're playing HRP and get upset just because you lose then perhaps HRP isn't for you.

[Bauser]

That critique doesn't work because if winning doesn't matter, the winrate should necessarily be about neutral. If one group (the station) is constantly winning, that demonstrates that it clearly matters to the group you're protecting more than it does to the antagonists. So don't bother trying to project that on me.

[Bauser]

"Maybe we should just remove the traitor uplink, because if they want equipment that powerful, they should have to work for it"

[BurgerBB]

I honestly don't care if the antag winrate is 1%, I don't care if the crew winrate is 1% winrate as a statistic is completely and utterly irrelevant to me. As long as both antags and crewmembers have an equal amount of fun, then that matters. It's the reason why I think that the AI is overpowered, yet I fixed the dropping rods to kill the AI meme.

[ShameOnTurtles]

I think that parapens should be consistent with other hyposprays, and should be delayed by full armour. Though, due to the nature of their stealthy purpose, they should not display a message when injecting through armour.

I do not believe their functionality is broken or in need of a rework, though I would be open to the kind of rework that Coalf proposes.

Introducing a 5-second delay to it knocking you out will not be an impactful nerf for antagonists. It is very easy to tail someone for 5 seconds and it takes no 'effort.' Call me cynical, but I would speculate that one of the only changes from an introduced delay would be certain people rushing to get within sight of others as soon as they feel the parapen working on them.

This argument is a bit tangential, but we should be primarily concerned about balance, not about eliminating mechanics that insta-stun someone. Those two purposes often fall in line, but I do not think the parapen is OP or in need of a nerf.

Once a poll is up I would ask that it contains an equal amount of for and against options.

[CommanderXor]

I can not in good faith support this suggestion either. I have been both on the giving end and receiving end of parapens. They take a good chunk of your telecrystals and can be stopped by armor. It's one of the few tools that antagonists have that allow them to utilize non-lethal methods - granted it does knock Vaurca into medium crit - and thus allows assumingly non-gank related gimmicks.

To nerf something because of pure dislike for a certain roleplay situation that occurred from them is stupid, and the entire 'instant stun removal' thing can also be debatable. Some things make sense, some do not. Flashbangs, for example, should knock you flat on your ass if you're not protected. But that is not the point of this suggestion. Regardless, -1 for this. I can't support taking one of the last non-lethal weapons/tools a traitor has as it will just encourage gank more.

 

Parapens cannot be stopped by armor. Only hardsuits and softsuits. And again, as clarified multiple times, it is not being nerfed because someone's RP is shit.

Last I checked they are stopped by armor? I've tried to parapen a member of security before but they were wearing both the armored trench coat and dermal patch and nothing happened. Unless it was changed since then to work through armor?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Parapens are stopped by armor.

[BurgerBB]

Parapens are not stopped by armor, they are stopped by the thick clothing tag which not all armor has and can easily be bypassed if you target a specific body part.

Source: I actually looked at the code.

[Itanimulli]

So tag more things with the thick clothing tag.

[Butterrobber202]

I honestly don't care if the antag winrate is 1%, I don't care if the crew winrate is 1% winrate as a statistic is completely and utterly irrelevant to me. As long as both antags and crewmembers have an equal amount of fun, then that matters. It's the reason why I think that the AI is overpowered, yet I fixed the dropping rods to kill the AI meme.

 

Alright, so

Winning is pretty fun chief,

Not saying that losing but having a fun journey isn’t, but that extra pride and accomplishment is pretty great.

Can we just stop nerfing everything that poses an actual threat? Like damn, Hugbox Simulator.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Parapens are not stopped by armor, they are stopped by the thick clothing tag which not all armor has and can easily be bypassed if you target a specific body part.

Source: I actually looked at the code.

 

Parapens are stopped by armor with the thick clothing tag and some of these armors target the entire body such as the trenchcoat.