We Should Have a Talk of the Current State of Aurora

[EvilBrage]

Forbid office romances between heads of staff and subordinates, ICly of course. Make a subforum for heads of staff, and if a particular character gets enough complaints, forbid them from head positions (not the player, the character, mind you.) If the player's characters are all involved with office romance on a head-subordinate level, then it's obvious the player has a problem and not the characters. I want to see more accountability from the heads of staff, personally - because this kind of stuff really does trickle down from that upper echelon that I love to refer to as "middle management." If they're judging their subordinates equally, then the staff will begin treating each other equally.

It's always baffled me why this wasn't a well-known IC rule already. Steamy, forbidden office romances have much more story potential than the unbridled favoritism that you can't really do much about because of the conspicuously absent upper management.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Forbid office romances between heads of staff and subordinates, ICly of course. Make a subforum for heads of staff, and if a particular character gets enough complaints, forbid them from head positions (not the player, the character, mind you.) If the player's characters are all involved with office romance on a head-subordinate level, then it's obvious the player has a problem and not the characters. I want to see more accountability from the heads of staff, personally - because this kind of stuff really does trickle down from that upper echelon that I love to refer to as "middle management." If they're judging their subordinates equally, then the staff will begin treating each other equally.

It's always baffled me why this wasn't a well-known IC rule already. Steamy, forbidden office romances have much more story potential than the unbridled favoritism that you can't really do much about because of the conspicuously absent upper management.

 

You don't need to drop a blanket ban on this. Just enforce the expectations. Houssam is marrying someone else on the station but I've never been accused of favouritism with him, outside concerns about it that never emerged to fruition.

(During antag rounds on another hand...)

[Frances]

The kissing in maintenance tunnels was merely an example I was giving. Favoritism isn't mainly restricted to that, but to IC or OOC cliques.

[Valkrae]

I've been keeping eyes on the reddit SS13 community, and I can sum up their opinion in a sentence.

They hate the cliques, and the favoritism.

They know we have those, and they come on, it happens to them, and they go back to Reddit, and post about it happening to them. This discourages new players from joining Aurora from reddit because of these posts. I've done my best to explain the situations, but it's hard to explain something when they are right about someone getting arrested for something a known character had done five minutes ago.

[Susan]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

"They"

It's more than 1 person, and with different opinions and expectations.

[EvilBrage]

You don't need to drop a blanket ban on this.

 

No one should get banned from it, but at a certain point the suspension of disbelief is gone and you're left with the captain always being the ultimate authority of everything ever, unless admin intervention happens. I'd just like to think that there are consequences for poor decision making.

[Cassie]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

So you believe everyone who has complained has simply copied and pasted off reddit and does not have valid opinions of their own based on the very things they have witnessed?

Because that's what you're implying.

Because otherwise complaints that keep mirroring each other, and that within your own admin team and player base keep complaining and leaving over the same thing. Because I know if I go onto a restaurant review online the best way to determine if someone's bad review is a lie or just an occasional mess-up is to check how often that particular thing has been complained about.

[Farcry11]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

Hey, I'm dropping back in to the community for a bit to say something:

(Pardon my French)

Fuck this. Fuck this whole line of thought. I'm sorry to say it, Sue, but it doesn't surprise me that you'd go with an approach like that.

"Oh, based on some posts I read at one point, those people must all be filthy TG peasants who can't RP. Their arguments are invalid. The community is in the right."

But no. That's not how it works. No matter how much you, and others, might want to convince yourself that endemic favoritism, elitism, and hostility to outsiders isn't a problem in this community, that doesn't make it so. So many long time players, myself included, have quit the server because we're frankly disgusted with what it's become. So no, you can't just say, "take what they (implying some group of people who are separate and lower than you) say with a grain of salt."

Because if you can't see how blatantly elitist (and indicative of the problem) that statement is, then (and I'm gonna use that term you love so much) you are literally fucking Hitler.

P.S sorry if I hurt anyone's sensibilities. Not really though.

[SgtSammac]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

Hey, I'm dropping back in to the community for a bit to say something:

(Pardon my French)

Fuck this. Fuck this whole line of thought. I'm sorry to say it, Sue, but it doesn't surprise me that you'd go with an approach like that.

"Oh, based on some posts I read at one point, those people must all be filthy TG peasants who can't RP. Their arguments are invalid. The community is in the right."

But no. That's not how it works. No matter how much you, and others, might want to convince yourself that endemic favoritism, elitism, and hostility to outsiders isn't a problem in this community, that doesn't make it so. So many long time players, myself included, have quit the server because we're frankly disgusted with what it's become. So no, you can't just say, "take what those idiots say with a grain of salt."

Because if you can't see how blatantly elitist (and indicative of the problem) that statement is, then (and I'm gonna use that term you love so much) you are literally fucking Hitler.

P.S sorry if I hurt anyone's sensibilities. Not really though.

 

Whilst I agree that there is definately an issue that needs addressing (But is down to individual people to change for themselves, it is not something that can be enforced with code, or can be forced from an IC perspective (But can be encouraged). I am able to see where Sue is coming from, I observe and occassionaly post within the R/SS13 subreddit and to be quite frank, there are some real cancerous leeches in there that seek only to shitpost, and there are also people who make legitimate arguments(*) but also spoil it by being unbelievably hostile, as if they think that being hostile changes anything.

* Again to clarify, I agree there are actual issues that need fixing, but we also need to be careful just how we look at the SubReddit, there are people there who complain for the sake of it, i.e. people from LRP servers who come to HRP server for whatever reason and then decide "Hurr this is shit because I can't kill people for no reason, lets complain and call the server shit", unfortunately the above complaint is increasingly common and tends to bury legitimate complaints/suggestions.

So it can be taken both ways.

[Cassie]

I am able to see where Sue is coming from, I observe and occassionaly post within the R/SS13 subreddit and to be quite frank, there are some real cancerous leeches in there that seek only to shitpost, and there are also people who make legitimate arguments(*) but also spoil it by being unbelievably hostile, as if they think that being hostile changes anything.

That's ridiculous. Are you the tone police? So you're attacking the author of the message and how they present it and that is an excuse for ignoring such complaints? (Well, I can definitely say Sue does)

Yes, being nice is kind, but I don't honestly think they have to! Especially if they actually haven't experienced it from the server. A lot of them didn't wake up in the morning growling "RAR I WANT TO ATE AURORA", they encountered something where they feel they were wronged, and because until now those complaints have been brushed aside or denied it has grown into a bigger problem; where lots of people have gotten angry and are able to actually relate to the same problem with each other and see none of them have seen a resolution or even an acknowledgement to said valid problem.

Instead of blaming them (the secondary problem) for the problem why don't we just fix the root problem instead?

 

* Again to clarify, I agree there are actual issues that need fixing, but we also need to be careful just how we look at the SubReddit, there are people there who complain for the sake of it, i.e. people from LRP servers who come to HRP server for whatever reason and then decide "Hurr this is shit because I can't kill people for no reason, lets complain and call the server shit", unfortunately the above complaint is increasingly common and tends to bury legitimate complaints/suggestions.

I think it's the other way around. The LRP complainers are in the minority yet are purposely amplified by people who can't take valid criticism so they can feel better about themselves in the situation they are in. The LRP people are definitely there because I have been lurking reddit (and made an account today as well) and I can say, yes, that does happen. But in all honesty on the same note I can say that the HRP complainers are often against said people, not only that, they get dismissed a lot by HRP admins - and that, leads to more hostility.

[SgtSammac]

I am not at all saying we should ignore peoples complaints, and no I am not the tone police, nor am I actually attacking anyone. I have not insulted anyone or attacked anyone for the way they are posting any complaints. I am simply saying there ways to go about that actually have more of an effect on getting things changed.

Insulting everyone and their mother changes things rarely, it can happen and it has happened, whereas constructive criticisms tend to have more an effect.

Calm discussion over emotional angry ranting any day.

Cassie, I don't see where I blamed anyone? I know there is an issue and I acknowledged that, all I said is that I can partially see where Sue is coming from and where her post (Usage of the "Grain of salt" phrase) may have been misunderstood due to highly aggressive previous posts.

Yes as a community in general we tend to be quite elitist (Not everyone.), and yes that is an issue which needs to be addressed.

[Jakers457]

I'm behind Hartburry with this, all the way. There are certain individuals who I find to be... Elitist? I won't name them, but.they're the reason I've distanced myself from you guys, perhaps doing that gives me no right to speak my mind on this topic but nevermind. I have seen many times where people get chastised for not having the pedigree of roleplay, and though there's many of you who teach the new guys and you have my respect entirely. But we're quick to assume, to judge and to take a swing at eachother. This post has some examples of that, and its something that might not be changed. But we should make ourselves aware of it and admit to it. For I admit to it myself.

[Guest]

The SS13 reddit also complained that /TG/ made it against the rules to lynch someone for killing Ian.

Take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

The ss13 subreddit serves as an unregulated center of speech. Things are going to be said that you do not like. You do not have to like it, but that does not automatically mean they are wrong and shouldn't be heard for their experiences.

Because more than likely, they are going to be right. When there was a discussion about metafriending on Aurora a week or so ago, they were fucking spot on with their observations.

Just because the subreddit can talk about whatever it wants, doesn't mean you can go out and say, "Fuck these guys, they are terrible, because they have these opinions", despite the fact that reddit is NOT a secular hivemind community.

Maybe they're actually right and we're in denial.

[Doomberg]

My opinion? SS13 reddit is unfortunately full of shit, but there are a bunch of valid opinions on there, surely.

With that aside, yes, our hostility towards new players is a real problem, and I'm glad that it's being brought to the public's attention. The staff can't fix this alone - we need the cooperation and understanding of the players above all.

Now, one thing I'd like to say a word or two about pertains to all the old players who keep going on about how they no longer play on our server because it's oh so distasteful and has become too cringeworthy for them. Let me ask you this: Apart from abandoning us in our time of need, what exactly have you done to remedy the situation? You were a part of this community, and like it or not, you helped make it what it is today. You're "disgusted with what it's become"? How about you do something to fix it, then? Take responsibility and contribute to improving the general atmosphere or step aside and quit being self-righteous, because /that/ is the most disgusting thing of all.

[Susan]

I agree with Doomberg. I don't deny there are certain groups with issues, but what I hate most of all are the people who leave and then shit on the server when they did nothing to improve the situation. I hated what Baystation turned into, and even after most of my friends had left the server I stayed until the bitter end in an effort to change it. All of these 'veteran's who ran off to abandon ship, did you try talking to, say, Skull? Voicing your complaints? Because it looks to me like none of that happened. Aurora isn't perfect, but you had a chance to try and impact the things you dislike and you chose not to. The point of a community is to work together to create an atmosphere. Giving up on that doesn't help.

[Skull132]

Every single complaint, every single article, every single post, every single action has reason behind it. The worst mistake you can commit while being a member of an evolutionary entity, such as a community, is say, "Right, this is good enough," and flag any criticism thrown at you as, "not fit," "not based on real info," "not true." Well, hi, this is how the world works: beyond the folks that just lie and cause issues for the fuck of it, which there are a few, everyone else has their opinion form on the basis of some experience. This opinion may be extreme, and the opinion itself may be misguided, but there is a basis there. An objective truth of, "This happened at this time, at this place, with these people involved," conveyed through a potentially extremely subjective opinion.

Guess what. Objective truth is a bitch and a half, but should be taken note of regardless. Regardless of how you get access to it. You take note, and adjust fire. As simple as that.

Ultimately, my door is open. And the doormat only has 2 or 3 unique footprints on it. Which makes me disappointed.

[Guest]

The point of a community is to work together to create an atmosphere. Giving up on that doesn't help.

 

This is something I would actually like clarified and please don't just shrug off my question because I'm not part of some higher circle of players that gets a say in this.

What exactly is the atmosphere we are trying to create?

Because of one outstanding round long ago, I was actually under the impression you had a singular vision. It peaked with the weekend events that were common around that time. After that, extended started to be outvoted by everything else, which was, IMO, mostly just secret or nuke with low RP antags, followed by Ahelp or OOC moaning and complaining. I admit, I'm one of the people that moans all the time at what I think is powergaming, but that's mostly because I'm confused as fuck what the hell 'powergaming' actually is. Every time I do complain, I have no idea if someone was punished, talked to, ignored or replaced, leaving me with no sense of closure and a guilty conscience for being a whiny bitch.

The reason I like this server, is the higher level of RP expected from its players, both normal and antag. Instead, RP is increasingly getting stomped by opressive SoP and lore revisions in an attempt to put powergamers and snowflakes under control. A fantasy reality for my personal escape is turning into my second job. Where did all of the events go? All the creativity that RP players are known for?

I appologise for my aggressive tone, but this is simply how it looks from my perspective. Yesterday's new players are a clear example of what really is wrong with this server. I'm falling into the same trap, I've almost brutally punishing to three new players just because of a small breach of SoP and misbehavior. They weren't even baldheads, they were mostly good players and RP-ers. This is why everyone is shitting over the server (which I assume they are, from what I've read here), because older players need to have patience with the new ones, not the other way around. I've nearly screwed up and appologised OOCly, but I'll be damned if the players stay for long after that.

[Valkrae]

The point of a community is to work together to create an atmosphere. Giving up on that doesn't help.

 

This is something I would actually like clarified and please don't just shrug off my question because I'm not part of some higher circle of players that gets a say in this.

What exactly is the atmosphere we are trying to create?

Because of one outstanding round long ago, I was actually under the impression you had a singular vision. It peaked with the weekend events that were common around that time. After that, extended started to be outvoted by everything else, which was, IMO, mostly just secret or nuke with low RP antags, followed by Ahelp or OOC moaning and complaining. I admit, I'm one of the people that moans all the time at what I think is powergaming, but that's mostly because I'm confused as fuck what the hell 'powergaming' actually is. Every time I do complain, I have no idea if someone was punished, talked to, ignored or replaced, leaving me with no sense of closure and a guilty conscience for being a whiny bitch.

The reason I like this server, is the higher level of RP expected from its players, both normal and antag. Instead, RP is increasingly getting stomped by opressive SoP and lore revisions in an attempt to put powergamers and snowflakes under control. A fantasy reality for my personal escape is turning into my second job. Where did all of the events go? All the creativity that RP players are known for?

I appologise for my aggressive tone, but this is simply how it looks from my perspective. Yesterday's new players are a clear example of what really is wrong with this server. I'm falling into the same trap, I've almost brutally punishing to three new players just because of a small breach of SoP and misbehavior. They weren't even baldheads, they were mostly good players and RP-ers. This is why everyone is shitting over the server (which I assume they are, from what I've read here), because older players need to have patience with the new ones, not the other way around. I've nearly screwed up and appologised OOCly, but I'll be damned if the players stay for long after that.

 

I kind of agree with you to be honest. The lore has become this thing that's no longer fun to play along with, but has become this system of harsh regulation that steals most of the fun away from actually RPing. I understand that, y'know, sometimes it is needed. But when players are actively leaving because of it, then something is wrong.

I took a hiatus during the winter months of late December and early January for a good reason; and it was only barely pertaining to personal reasons. I became so upset and frustrated every time I logged in. There was a cacophony of complaints, griping, and downright blatant temper tantrums.

I love this community, and the people in it. This post has no real comprehension, but I'm stating my words as they come into my brain.

[Conservatron]

Personally, I think mods and admins are too quick to respond to grief. That might not be a popular opinion, but it is what it is. I had a shift as an engineer where I walked into a maint room and found a new engineer breaking through glass to try and make a vacuum. Obviously a griefer, but I called it in and disarmed them, then we got in a fight where I tried to push them down and tie them up. During this, they got 'admin down'd' or whatever, which totally blew all the steam out of my guy. It went from Cons heroically saving the station from depressurization to 'oh an admin put him on his back and i tied him up'

a few shifts before that, there was some workplace personality clashing in the engineering department, one guy was super upset at me smoking in the break room, I egged him on, things escalated into a fist fight (that was promptly broken up by other engineering staff) but during it we were both admin down'd and I instantly got a message saying 'what happened here?' I explained and that was that, but like, we already had it handled, effectively and ICly. We didn't need to be forcibly dropped to the ground.

What I mean to say is let things happen. We put so many restrictions on antags that its becoming not fun to be one anymore. I've disabled traitor and changeling from the list now because there's so much question as to proper use of force and whats ganking and what isn't. All the rules and protections we have puts tons of limits and makes things boring for the majority to appease those who want nothing to ever happen to their characters.

so suggestions I have:

1) remove the blanket SSD restriction for antags. If you log off without telling anyone in a dark corridor in maint and get eaten by a changeling you should have absolutely no right to complain about this.

2) save 'admin cleanup' for AFTER things are resolved. Let the players handle grief. If a bald head scientist blows a hole in the middle of the station, let the engineers fix it and let medical save the victims, don't admin heal everyone and reset the damage.

3) I had a third one but forget it now and a list of 2 just looks dumb.

Basically, let us play the game, we don't need to be mommied here.

[Guest]

Actually, I agree with Cons. There's too much admin intervention ICly. Let the chucklefuck assistant who is knocking everyone down, picking up laser rifles and killing people get dealt with AFTER they get thrown out the mass driver by the HoS personally.

I've seen extremely robust people get bwoinked and halted in the middle of combat and then rushed/batonned immediately, breaking the flow of the action on other servers. I've seen it once or twice here as well.

It's a lot easier to deal with an issue once its deescalated. Unless it's a welderbomber who dies instantly, there's no point jumping on the ball with it. If it actually was a griefer and they manage to assure you they won't do it again, and then go on to do more destruction, well, I'm reluctant to say that you've failed to deal with the issue properly. But I'll say it anyway, at risk for getting yelled at.

Assess, re-assess, react. It's a lot less difficult to deal with someone who is shut down in the moment.

[Valkrae]

I agree with Cons. The IC situations that could escalate from these things should just be dealt with by players, unless Staff has to step in to prevent the station from imploding on itself.

[Tenenza]

On the whole "Clean up after it's solved ICly":

I can see where this is coming from, but, this really does depend on the situation. Generally speaking, Grief bombers are doing what they are doing to, you know, grief. There aren't many incidents of accidental bombings of high-traffic areas. And griefers generally don't care about if they get banned or not, since you know, they're deliberately trying to grief. So, when it comes to that kinda grief, the kind that kills lots of people and disrupts the round a bunch, it's not really something the staff "cleans up", and is more of a preemptive overwatch on people making bombs and taking them out into main hallways.

[Tenenza]

Actually, no, I got something more importnat to talk about.

What do you actually freaking what the server to be like?

Well?

Because this thread is rambly and makes no fecking sense.

You want people to be nicer to new people?

Great, I can totally live with that.

Then start being nicer to new people, because you're doing fuck all just milling around here.

Oh, and you want Reddit to like us?

What the hell does that even mean.

Reddit is like a big group of people who keep talking and never agree about anything.

They don't like any server. At all.

Cliques and Favortism, yeah, those are problems, but like, half the people who have posted in this thread are in them.

SoP gridlocking and lore whosewhatit, oh god.

22 year old doctors, those a bit of an issue. Is it an issue that should be dealt with ICly? Really, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's probably not. Yeah, I've bitched to people about ages whatnot, and you know, and that was a stupid. Because honestly, it's not that big of a freaking deal that It needs to be dealt with during the round. Other SoP nonsence, like, self-testing without paperwork or telling anyone, well, if they didn't freaking know OOCly, then they didn't know ICly either. Yeah, that's how it works. Does it break your immersions? Because if it does, and that's seriously that much a problem with you, then consider reprioritizing your life. I mean, arrest them if you have to, but, like, don't go charge dumping to make it as long a brig term as possible. Because seriously, that's borderline breaking the "Don't be a Dick" rule.

This was a rant.

It was a rant because it was a rant in my head, a rant as I wrote it, and a rant as I refuse to proof-read it.

You are the Server. A part of this community.

So don't be a dick.

We're trying to have a higher standard of RP, but that doesn't mean it's your job to freaking uphold that.

It's your job to be the higher standard, and if you don't want that stardard to be as elitist and isolationist as it is now, stop being that.

[TishinaStalker]

Actually, I agree with Cons. There's too much admin intervention ICly. Let the chucklefuck assistant who is knocking everyone down, picking up laser rifles and killing people get dealt with AFTER they get thrown out the mass driver by the HoS personally.

 

No. Literally. Just. No. Oh, lets just deal with the assistant AFTER he kills more than two people. That's definitely not ruining the round for them so that a griefer can have fun, right? No, that's not how it works. I'll tell you how it works:

 

• Stereotypical bald 30 year old logs in as Warden
  
  
  
  Accesses armory immediately
  
  
  
  Gets rifle
  
  
  
  Takes rifle out of armory on code green without a word
  
  
  
  Admin is quietly watching
  
  
  
  Person fires once at innocent person
  
  
  
  Dropped, questioned, and most surely banned

 

I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but this is the worst idea, Delta. Asking us to do what you said Delta is literally asking us to let grief go by PERFECTLY fine without a care until after it was resolved IC'ly. This is not going to fly. Why? Because it is extremely disruptive to the round. I'm not going to give you IC permission to mass drive a griefer out of the station. Why? Because that's breaking the rules in of itself (playing an insane character). If people are griefing, they're going to be stopped immediately. If we let grief go by, then people will think "Hey! I can grief on this server, and I won't get banned until after I do it!" That gives every griefer and their mother's a reason to come to Aurora. If you want grief, then you go to grief station. You don't come to Aurora because the staff is always vigilant.