Revert The Dangers of Teleportation #5651

[Scheveningen]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5651

We'll start top to bottom how *wrongly* this progressed.



This is a sneak-peek of how prohibitively dangerous teleporting live beings is with telescience.

When the question regarding "how prohibitively dangerous" came up, it was answered in such a fashion:



Here's another concern that was raised:



This was the justification for the overloaded nature of the mechanic.



Here is an example of Moondancer's theory applied into practice.



Teleported welderbomb with half the necessary effort.



See that up there? You lose an arm if you teleport into that. Not even kidding.

Brief analysis from me; this is is an incredibly nebulous change to a complex issue rounding out to it being a problem of how something is used rather than the actual power of something being used, but instead this got changed in this way to basically turn the telescience pad into a portable mini-nuke launcher. This is prohibitively dangerous for anyone to live test without already having a telescience calculator tuned to 100% accurate certainty for the round, and it makes teleported items explode just because.

There have been exactly zero incidents of telescience abuse since Arrow made this announcement and yet this extreme, and quite hamhanded solution was still merged.

My suggestion: Revert the changes made by this PR and go back to the drawing board to tune telescience in more interesting and consequential ways than "lul explosionzzz!!! holds up developer spork!!!" and likely forecast for maiming without an exact tuned calculator. Because this change is gonna punish new telescience users given how objects spontaneously explode upon teleporting into things.

Yes, literally all objects. Not just welder tanks.



Another suggestion: Please stop applying Pacmandevil's Razor (beat it with a fist until the feature is an awkward bloodied pulp) to every mechanic with a problematic nature. It's bad development philosophy.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Scheveningen

[LordFowl]

We'll start top to bottom on how *wrong* this is:

Quote

This is a sneak-peek of how prohibitively dangerous teleporting live beings is with telescience.

A sneak peak of something that can't happen. That image is a joke, and an explosion of that size can only be achieved if you teleport something with a w_class of 100.

 

Quote

When the question regarding "how prohibitively dangerous" came up, it was answered in such a fashion:

Because it isn't "prohibitively dangerous". Was I wrong?

Quote

This was the justification for the overloaded nature of the mechanic.



Here is an example of Moondancer's theory applied into practice.



Teleported welderbomb with half the necessary effort.

Welderbombing as a telescientist is piss-easy. Notice how this welderbomb doesn't even accomplish any damage to the AI? If only the telescientist had just attached a signaller and detonated the welderbomb directly adjacent to the AI core itself. Notable, this even makes bombing slightly harder because if you teleport an actually important bomb into a wall it will get destroyed I am fairly sure.

 

Quote

See that up there? You lose an arm if you teleport into that. Not even kidding.

Yes, a window is both anchored and dense. Where is the issue here?

 

Quote

There have been exactly zero incidents of telescience abuse since Arrow made this announcement and yet this extreme, and quite hamhanded solution was still merged.

The only ham here is you. This PR was not made in a response to telescience abuse nor Arrow's announcement. This PR exists solely because I think "Oh, I teleported into a wall. Oh well" is an oversight that should be resolved. So I resolved it.

Quote

Yes, literally all objects. Not just welder tanks.

Yes, literally all objects have mass. Most objects however explode in such a minor fashion that all they produce is noise. If you investigated further before getting your knees all ready to jerk you'd know this.

Quote

Another suggestion: Please stop applying Pacmandevil's Razor (beat it with a fist until the feature is an awkward bloodied pulp) to every mechanic with a problematic nature. It's bad development philosophy.

Another suggestion: Please stop assuming an intent behind an action just because it's the easiest intent to argue against. As I've outlined before, this assumption is incorrect. This PR was made in response to an oversight, not in an attempt to REEE NERF TEEEELEESCCIIIIEEEENCE. It's bad manners.

Edited December 2, 2018 by LordFowl

[Scheveningen]

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Because it isn't "prohibitively dangerous". Was I wrong?

Yes. Teleporting into a wall instantly rips you out of the round if you're so unlucky to be teleported straight into layered walls. Not, "revolvered in the chest, hit your heart and you insta die, but your body is still intact to clone" instantly ripped out of the round, but "gibbed." So with that heavy risk in mind, live telescience testing may as well not be used at all except by antagonists. Way to polarize a mechanic in its usefulness.

 

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Welderbombing as a telescientist is piss-easy. Notice how this welderbomb doesn't even accomplish any damage to the AI? If only the telescientist had just attached a signaller and detonated the welderbomb directly adjacent to the AI core itself. Notable, this even makes bombing slightly harder because if you teleport an actually important bomb into a wall it will get destroyed I am fairly sure.

Welderbomb triangulated on top of the wall above the AI's APC will destroy said APC and kill it. This is also an uncounterable explosive. You arbitrarily added an extreme amount of lethality to telescience.

 

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

The only ham here is you. This PR was not made in a response to telescience abuse nor Arrow's announcement. This PR exists solely because I think "Oh, I teleported into a wall. Oh well" is an oversight that should be resolved. So I resolved it.

I don't buy that this PR wasn't pushed because of telescience being a hot topic. The PR wouldn't exist had there not been someone to remind people that telescience is abusable.

 

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Yes, a window is both anchored and dense. Where is the issue here?

It's not a full window. The likelihood of phasing into a partial window that's just standing off to the side and out of the way seems very unlikely (if anything, it's out in the open by itself, and anything in the midst of several partial windows is merely an enclosure), and the way this exists now seems to punish being directly teleported onto any tile that has partial windows in those tiles for decorative reasons or to create divided sections in rooms.

 

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Yes, literally all objects have mass. Most objects however explode in such a minor fashion that all they produce is noise. If you investigated further before getting your knees all ready to jerk you'd know this.

 

38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Another suggestion: Please stop assuming an intent behind an action just because it's the easiest intent to argue against. As I've outlined before, this assumption is incorrect. This PR was made in response to an oversight, not in an attempt to REEE NERF TEEEELEESCCIIIIEEEENCE. It's bad manners.

I'd make a gaff about "that going in the staff complaint" but I already expected this sort of attitude coming from you. Let me know when you muster the courage to respond to that thread, by the way, odd that you'd leave such an issue still hanging.

I'm sure someone else will deal with this after you are.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Scheveningen

[LordFowl]

Quote

Yes. Teleporting into a wall instantly rips you out of the round if you're so unlucky to be teleported straight into layered walls. Not, "revolvered in the chest, hit your heart and you insta die, but your body is still intact to clone" instantly ripped out of the round, but "gibbed." So with that heavy risk in mind, live telescience testing may as well not be used at all except by antagonists. Way to polarize a mechanic in its usefulness.

Elucidate to me the abundance of "layered walls" and I might reconsider my position, but considering that these "layered walls" literally need to be a 3x3 box of walls I don't think that it's quite as common as you think they are. Way to magnify a remote possibility in its importance.

Quote

Welderbomb triangulated on top of the wall above the AI's APC will destroy said APC and kill it. This is also an uncounterable explosive. You arbitrarily added an extreme amount of lethality to telescience.

It's funny because if you posted this statement on literally any other server with telescience than it would still be true. Welderbomb triangulated on top of the wall above the AI's APC and then remotely detonate it with the signallers scientists have easy access to and you kill it. This is also an uncounterable explosive. I arbitrarily literally did not affect the meta whatsoever. Is it more effort? Well, considering in both cases it's literally 0 effort and 0/2 is 0 both times...

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I don't buy that this PR wasn't pushed because of telescience being a hot topic. The PR wouldn't exist had there not been someone to remind people that telescience is abusable.

I never said that this PR wasn't pushed because telescience was being discussed. I said that this PR was not pushed as an effort to resolve the "problem" with telescience Arrow outlined, nor was it pushed as an "arbitrary nerf" to telescience, nor was it related whatsoever to Arrow's announcement except that I thought about teleportation, thought about how people can teleport into walls, and then thought "huh, funny how nobody's ever addressed that." I then addressed it. Buy whatever you want, but you're wasting your money here.

Quote

It's not a full window. The likelihood of phasing into a partial window that's just standing off to the side and out of the way seems very unlikely (if anything, it's out in the open by itself, and anything in the midst of several partial windows is merely an enclosure), and the way this exists now seems to punish being directly teleported onto any tile that has partial windows in those tiles for decorative reasons or to create divided sections in rooms.

The PR does not currently account for how much "space" an object that is both anchored and dense occupies, because as far as I know there is no way to measure "space" except in terms of tiles. So the code makes a shortcut here, assuming that for the vast majority of objects if it's anchored and dense it occupies enough space that there is a not-insignificant possibility of you phasing into it, and then rounds up. It's a quite reasonable convention of estimation.

Quote

Yes, literally all objects have mass. Most objects however explode in such a minor fashion that all they produce is noise. If you investigated further before getting your knees all ready to jerk you'd know this.

 

  38 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Another suggestion: Please stop assuming an intent behind an action just because it's the easiest intent to argue against. As I've outlined before, this assumption is incorrect. This PR was made in response to an oversight, not in an attempt to REEE NERF TEEEELEESCCIIIIEEEENCE. It's bad manners.

I'd make a gaff about "that going in the staff complaint" but I already expected this sort of attitude coming from you.

I'm sure someone else will deal with this after you are.

I feel quite justified in saying that you did not investigate further considering that:
A) Your statement was wrong.

B) The statement you used in attempt to prove was sourced from a direct ping from me, and after I answered you did not request for further clarification, proving that no you did not investigate further.

And bringing up my staff complaint is quite the classy move. I'd bring up your colorful history of administrative wrist-slaps, but I understand that they're actually totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Scheveningen]

2 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

t's funny because if you posted this statement on literally any other server with telescience than it would still be true. Welderbomb triangulated on top of the wall above the AI's APC and then remotely detonate it with the signallers scientists have easy access to and you kill it. This is also an uncounterable explosive. I arbitrarily literally did not affect the meta whatsoever. Is it more effort? Well, considering in both cases it's literally 0 effort and 0/2 is 0 both times...

*So double down and force this to be the outcome, making high-mass objects mini-nukes, and welderbombs having higher yield?*

Why didn't you just do something like putting objects/mobs that teleport into solid walls just enter a teleportation loop until they end up in an unoccupied space? In this way, bodies can still be recoverable and nobody is ever left in the 3x3 wall situation or has to be gibbed (though they may have to entertain the chance of being spaced), and it's more adhering to the thematic of bluespace being about a dimension of teleporting matter. Adding explosions and maiming just seems cheap and easy of a solution, and not the 'right solution.'
 

5 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

I never said that this PR wasn't pushed because telescience was being discussed. I said that this PR was not pushed as an effort to resolve the "problem" with telescience Arrow outlined, nor was it pushed as an "arbitrary nerf" to telescience, nor was it related whatsoever to Arrow's announcement except that I thought about teleportation, thought about how people can teleport into walls, and then thought "huh, funny how nobody's ever addressed that." I then addressed it. Buy whatever you want, but you're wasting your money here.

It was very likely left unaddressed because there wasn't a good resolution to the problem that would've been 1.) fair 2.) reasonably still punishing 3.) balanced. Or it wasn't even considered a problem because consistency didn't matter at the time, just that the basic framework... worked. So it was left as is.

I would believe it important to still make good decisions in warping the "how" of addressing issues that were left as-is.

 

15 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

The PR does not currently account for how much "space" an object that is both anchored and dense occupies, because as far as I know there is no way to measure "space" except in terms of tiles. So the code makes a shortcut here, assuming that for the vast majority of objects if it's anchored and dense it occupies enough space that there is a not-insignificant possibility of you phasing into it, and then rounds up. It's a quite reasonable convention of estimation.

The exception should've been considered and made initially. The possibility of losing an arm because you teleported into a window enclosure (i.e., the window enclosure keeping the space mini-moog in the bar) is a big deal. I understand why it would happen code-wise, but I don't find it good that it was part of the feature as what was packaged.
 

 

18 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

A) Your statement was wrong.

Not far off in estimating the lethality of these changes, rather. Losing an arm or a leg to a 1x1 wall mishap is no small thing in gameplay terms. Neither is a finality of a gibbing through a 3x3.

 

19 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

B) The statement you used in attempt to prove was sourced from a direct ping from me, and after I answered you did not request for further clarification, proving that no you did not investigate further.

No, actually, I did not ping you. I pinged moondancer who was showing off the severity of some of the changes you made. Given your current serial habit of discussing topics, I had no interest at the time of asking you directly, knowing full well that your ability to be professional is not a consistent thing anyone can rely on, and you being "unprofessional" when you are would be by itself an understatement.

 

21 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

And bringing up my staff complaint is quite the classy move.

Honestly, if you can go around calling people autistic, insulting people, etc., under the cover of sardony, and seemingly get away with it, I believe I can chance getting away with making such a jab that pales in comparison to whatever vitriol you have a tendency to type out either on the discord, forums or github nowadays.

I don't think you can really go around waggling your finger about what is or isn't classy, regardless. Interesting that you only have a problem with daggered statements when it's directed at you.

[LordFowl]

Quote

*So double down and force this to be the outcome, making high-mass objects mini-nukes, and welderbombs having higher yield?*

Why didn't you just do something like putting objects/mobs that teleport into solid walls just enter a teleportation loop until they end up in an unoccupied space? In this way, bodies can still be recoverable and nobody is ever left in the 3x3 wall situation or has to be gibbed (though they may have to entertain the chance of being spaced), and it's more adhering to the thematic of bluespace being about a dimension of teleporting matter. Adding explosions and maiming just seems cheap and easy of a solution, and not the 'right solution.'

Mininukes? Are you kidding me? Moving on, I didn't do a "teleportation loop" because I didn't (and don't) think it makes any sense at all. Creating "teleportation loops" just seems to be a cheap and easy solution, not the 'right solution'. Explosive emissions of energy and maiming on the other hand seem like perfectly reasonable and logical outcomes when you teleport into a wall.

Quote

It was very likely left unaddressed because there wasn't a good resolution to the problem that would've been 1.) fair 2.) reasonably still punishing 3.) balanced. Or it wasn't even considered a problem because consistency didn't matter at the time, just that the basic framework... worked. So it was left as is.

That's an assumption that is more than often wrong. Simply because something is unaddressed does not mean that it's intentional.

Quote

I would believe it important to still make good decisions in warping the "how" of addressing issues that were left as-is.

I don't know what this means. Nothing is being warped here.

Quote

  25 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

A) Your statement was wrong.

Not far off in estimating the lethality of these changes, rather. Losing an arm or a leg to a 1x1 wall mishap is no small thing in gameplay terms. Neither is a finality of a gibbing through a 3x3.

That wasn't your statement though. Your statement was:

Quote

Because this change is gonna punish new telescience users given how objects spontaneously explode upon teleporting into things.

Yes, literally all objects. Not just welder tanks.

And yes, while I concede that it's technically correct that all objects explode insoasmuch that all most objects actually just produce a flash of light and a puff of sound, I felt that rounding up here was in good faith.

Quote

The exception should've been considered and made initially. The possibility of losing an arm because you teleported into a window enclosure (i.e., the window enclosure keeping the space mini-moog in the bar) is a big deal. I understand why it would happen code-wise, but I don't find it good that it was part of the feature as what was packaged.

The exception was considered initially. Do not misinterpret my statement as "I was unaware of this possibility and never intended for things to work like this." I consider windows an edge-case that can safely be rounded up. If I had a way of easily and consistently estimating how much "space" an object consumes I would make it a maybe 25% chance for each window (As a window pane consumes approximately 25% of a tile), but I don't and I don't consider it such a large problem as to scrap the baby with the babywater.

Quote

  25 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

B) The statement you used in attempt to prove was sourced from a direct ping from me, and after I answered you did not request for further clarification, proving that no you did not investigate further.

No, actually, I did not ping you. I pinged moondancer who was showing off the severity of some of the changes you made. Given your current serial habit of discussing topics, I had no interest at the time of asking you directly, knowing full well that your ability to be professional is not a consistent thing anyone can rely on, and you being "unprofessional" when you are would be by itself an understatement.

I was mistaken, but whoever you pinged is irrelevant to the actual content of my statement (which you should probably focus on instead of disparaging my "professionality" despite my "professionality" having no bearing on this conversation, considering I have answered all of your points raised fairly, in good faith, without deception, and without intent to memepost.). The content of my statement being "I know you asked this question, know that you were given an answer, know that you used this specific answer as a point in your topic, and know that you did not investigate further despite the extrapolation you made off of this answer being wrong."

Quote

  25 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

And bringing up my staff complaint is quite the classy move.

Honestly, if you can go around calling people autistic, insulting people, etc., under the cover of sardony, and seemingly get away with it, I believe I can chance getting away with making such a jab that pales in comparison to whatever vitriol you have a tendency to type out either on the discord, forums or github nowadays.

I don't think you can really go around waggling your finger about what is or isn't classy, regardless. Interesting that you only have a problem with daggered statements when it's directed at you.

Rest assured that you can't. Unlike the administrators I believe in moderating people's actions. If the topic of this discussion continues to drift away from the original purpose (discussing telescience) into an off-topic purpose (fowl is a big big poopyhead) I will not feel particularly remiss in doing my job and pruning off-topic content. And if you believe I am overstepping myself, then yes you can add that to my staff complaint.

The master of the dagger knows how to parry better than they know how to thrust.

[Scheveningen]

5 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Mininukes? Are you kidding me? Moving on, I didn't do a "teleportation loop" because I didn't (and don't) think it makes any sense at all. Creating "teleportation loops" just seems to be a cheap and easy solution, not the 'right solution'. Explosive emissions of energy and maiming on the other hand seem like perfectly reasonable and logical outcomes when you teleport into a wall.

Feel free to consult with other detractors of this change in what they think is reasonable or what you should've implemented instead. You can take their opinion with as much of a grain of wheat.
 

8 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

That's an assumption that is more than often wrong. Simply because something is unaddressed does not mean that it's intentional.

There's enough time between the times it was implemented and now to presume that it likely wasn't worth the concern of anyone in the past, because they judged the mechanic through the lens of "it's just a video game" rather than "an actual simulation of sci fi/fantasy mechanics." It's a relatively safe assumption to make that not dealing with it was intentional.

 

10 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

I don't know what this means. Nothing is being warped here.

"Make better decisions."
 

11 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

The exception was considered initially. Do not misinterpret my statement as "I was unaware of this possibility and never intended for things to work like this." I consider windows an edge-case that can safely be rounded up. If I had a way of easily and consistently estimating how much "space" an object consumes I would make it a maybe 25% chance for each window (As a window pane consumes approximately 25% of a tile), but I don't and I don't consider it such a large problem as to scrap the baby with the babywater.

You don't have to toss the baby out with the bathwater. Okay, rather, 'don't serve the bun out from the oven until it's done.' As it stands, teleporting into a window enclosure (no grille) has equal amounts of lethality as teleporting into a 1x1 wall. That's not fun for anyone. To diverge from that, there's also more enabled use for malicious people to use telescience now rather than the telesci explorers themselves as it stands. If you send a GPS out into a wall to comb through the mines... well, you just lost a GPS. Telescience used to be a decent way of finding the random dungeons. Now they have to be found the harder way.

 

16 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

I was mistaken, but whoever you pinged is irrelevant to the actual content of my statement (which you should probably focus on instead of disparaging my "professionality" despite my "professionality" having no bearing on this conversation, considering I have answered all of your points raised fairly, in good faith, without deception, and without intent to memepost.). The content of my statement being "I know you asked this question, know that you were given an answer, know that you used this specific answer as a point in your topic, and know that you did not investigate further despite the extrapolation you made off of this answer being wrong."

Alright.

 

16 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

Rest assured that you can't. Unlike the administrators I believe in moderating people's actions. If the topic of this discussion continues to drift away from the original purpose (discussing telescience) into an off-topic purpose (fowl is a big big poopyhead) I will not feel particularly remiss in doing my job and pruning off-topic content. And if you believe I am overstepping myself, then yes you can add that to my staff complaint.

The master of the dagger knows how to parry better than they know how to thrust.

Here's my issue with this: You believe in moderating people's actions, but you won't moderate your own 'tude and how you speak to others. I hope you recognize the conflict between the message and the messenger there, and that you realize the mistake there and better yourself as a person and a staff member. That's all else I'll say on that point.

Beyond that, I am still adamant that either a revert or a rework of this PR needs to be done to be less punishing to the benign users while still being attractive to the explorer-type telescience users, while still adding a element that does punish overzealous attempts at exploring or even malicious intent in general. I don't mind Teleport into Wall > Lose arm so much as I mind losing an arm teleporting into a partial window. Gibbing is also something I believe should be restricted to high-yield explosives, Vox Armalis, Vaurca Warforms, Xeno Queens and etc.

[LordFowl]

“Feel free to consult with other detractors of this change in what they think is reasonable or what you should've implemented instead. You can take their opinion with as much of a grain of wheat.”

Other detractors are free to post here. That  is the purpose of this thread, is it not? I will judge their opinion on their own merits.

“There's enough time between the times it was implemented and now to presume that it likely wasn't worth the concern of anyone in the past, because they judged the mechanic through the lens of "it's just a video game" rather than "an actual simulation of sci fi/fantasy mechanics." It's a relatively safe assumption to make that not dealing with it was intentional.”

That is not an estimation one can make. Unless the exact reason why a thing is the way it is is posted and set in stone, then stipulation is for the birds. You judge things based on the data available, not the data that best fits your intent.

“You don't have to toss the baby out with the bathwater. Okay, rather, 'don't serve the bun out from the oven until it's done.' As it stands, teleporting into a window enclosure (no grille) has equal amounts of lethality as teleporting into a 1x1 wall. That's not fun for anyone. To diverge from that, there's also more enabled use for malicious people to use telescience now rather than the telesci explorers themselves as it stands. If you send a GPS out into a wall to comb through the mines... well, you just lost a GPS. Telescience used to be a decent way of finding the random dungeons. Now they have to be found the harder way.“

A perfect balance of malicious/non malicious is not my intent (indeed near anything that is non-malicious can be used evilly with enough creativity), but I think you are jumping the gun here. Is exploring the asteroid with telescience harder? Yes, but I don’t think this is bad because it is neither impossible nor strictly speaking worse than the alternative. Instead of using the GPS to cheese for dungeons you instead use a low value, high quantity item to scan for safe turfs (if you can warp it back the turf is safe), and then you teleport in something else (a gps, a camera, an explorer), is the method that pops into my head.

”Here's my issue with this: You believe in moderating people's actions, but you won't moderate your own 'tude and how you speak to others. I hope you recognize the conflict between the message and the messenger there, and that you realize the mistake there and better yourself as a person and a staff member. That's all else I'll say on that point.”

I believe that everything and everyone has a proper time and place and that my proper work here is to do my job. I don’t see this as hypocrisy, and if you really want to continue discussing telescience in context of my ability as a developer instead of in context of telescience then I believe you have the right to do so. Just not here. And I believe I have the responsibility to direct you to do so. If you think this is hypocritical then I encourage you to discuss it, to shitpost it, to even meme it. Just not here.

“Beyond that, I am still adamant that either a revert or a rework of this PR needs to be done to be less punishing to the benign users while still being attractive to the explorer-type telescience users, while still adding a element that does punish overzealous attempts at exploring or even malicious intent in general. I don't mind Teleport into Wall > Lose arm so much as I mind losing an arm teleporting into a partial window. Gibbing is also something I believe should be restricted to high-yield explosives, Vox Armalis, Vaurca Warforms, Xeno Queens and etc.“

I am open to reconsidering the window situation and am open to alternate suggestions for gibbing that carry a similar gravity to gibbing.

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by LordFowl

[Lady Fowl]

To point to Fowls comment about the welder bomb, thats false in a sense that the damage it causes is variable and can be like Moondancers test or like the test I performed on a test server in which I was able to welder bomb a entire department of the derelict by simply finding the most dense area to teleport it too along with extra explosives being sent. The main issue I have though is this essentialy punish's new people to telescuience and makes them afraid of exploring or learning it

[Conspiir]

46 minutes ago, DRagO said:

To point to Fowls comment about the welder bomb, thats false in a sense that the damage it causes is variable and can be like Moondancers test or like the test I performed on a test server in which I was able to welder bomb a entire department of the derelict by simply finding the most dense area to teleport it too along with extra explosives being sent. The main issue I have though is this essentialy punish's new people to telescuience and makes them afraid of exploring or learning it

This.

 

Telescience puts people off because "Eugh, lot of math, lot of testing... maybe later."

 

Now it's "I could literally kill people on accident just by testing. I'll probably get ahelped for it. Time to never mess with telescience testing ever."

 

It will go the way of the Tesla: There, but totally unused by even the people that know how to use it.

[Arrow768]

TlDr: Its being tweaked.

A bit longer explanation why this PR has been merged in the current state:
By the time the PR has been merged it was up since 11 days on github and was awaiting to be merged since 3 days.
Noone has voiced any major concerns, messaged me about tagging it as feedback required or tagged it as feedback required.
I also forgot that we now have the ability to testmerge PRs more easily now (mostly because there were only 2 PRs that I know of which have been testmerged while I was a dev on Aurora)

There are already two PRs which further tweak / adapt telescience:
Carmen Miranda's Ghost
Bluespace Inhibitors

If you have further suggestions how to tweak / change the original PR, feel free to post them below.
As it stands, this PR will not be reverted sooner than 2019-01-01

Edited December 3, 2018 by Arrow768
Slightly longer explanation

[GreenBoi]

I absolutely support this. There's practically no way for Novice Telescientists to learn Telescience organically without a calculator. They'd have to basically learn using only Sector 2 (a strange zlevel that has stationary objects in space), but even that's inaccurate. You've pushed the Skill Ceiling to a point that not even video-game mechanics go to. At this point, the only way to learn Telescience is through tutelage of a Decent Telescientist which happens to be quite rare in these times. This means, if those Professionals ever leave: say goodbye to learning how to work it out without exploding half the station. I say that small and tiny objects are exempt from the exploding curse of phasing into walls. This would at least lower the Ceiling to a somewhat approachable level.

Edited February 3, 2019 by GreenBoi
fixed typo

[PoZe]

First - telescience was never designed to be experimented on station levels, especially trying to teleport into another department. Telescience is a new tech that is really hard to use, all existing teleport devices are top-notch new devices. 

So obviously you shouldn't use people to test telescience or you shouldn't test it by teleporting into AI core. You can easily use GPS to safely test it, if you need to know what is there you need to use some form or camera. We can implement cameras into integrated circuitry if it doesn't exit.

[VTCobaltblood]

2 hours ago, PoZe said:

We can implement cameras into integrated circuitry if it doesn't exit.

It does! Telescientists love to receive camera/GPS assemblies from me.

[Lady Fowl]

19 hours ago, VTCobaltblood said:

It does! Telescientists love to receive camera/GPS assemblies from me.

 

21 hours ago, PoZe said:

First - telescience was never designed to be experimented on station levels, especially trying to teleport into another department. Telescience is a new tech that is really hard to use, all existing teleport devices are top-notch new devices. 

So obviously you shouldn't use people to test telescience or you shouldn't test it by teleporting into AI core. You can easily use GPS to safely test it, if you need to know what is there you need to use some form or camera. We can implement cameras into integrated circuitry if it doesn't exit.

 

Circuits have cameras. The issue is, circuit assemblys and such break as do gps's if you teleport them into a wall

[LordFowl]

4 hours ago, DRagO said:

 

 

Circuits have cameras. The issue is, circuit assemblys and such break as do gps's if you teleport them into a wall

That is untrue.

[Lady Fowl]

1 minute ago, LordFowl said:

That is untrue.

How so? I just tested it with prate aswell as with other objects

[LordFowl]

A GPS is not destroyed when it is teleported into a wall.

[PoZe]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:28 PM, DRagO said:

How so? I just tested it with prate aswell as with other objects

Code wise explosion occurs before the object is actually moved to a new location - I have tested by teleporting several objects myself and all of them survived.

[GreenBoi]

Ok, it's been well over a month and I still find this a problem. Finding a perfect 3x3 place is incredibly difficult and results in a lot of explosions in maintenance. I don't even see the people who usually test with Telescience even attempt to do anything with them now. Sure, you can teleport a bunch of things in a 7x7 radius, but is it really worth it when you won't even be able to teleport things normally unless it's in the Central Ring? 

[Lady Fowl]

4 hours ago, GreenBoi said:

Ok, it's been well over a month and I still find this a problem. Finding a perfect 3x3 place is incredibly difficult and results in a lot of explosions in maintenance. I don't even see the people who usually test with Telescience even attempt to do anything with them now. Sure, you can teleport a bunch of things in a 7x7 radius, but is it really worth it when you won't even be able to teleport things normally unless it's in the Central Ring? 

7x7 Is impossible, you would need a larger telesci room, the option is in place for future proofing. Its quite easy to do 3x3 aswell, Im generaly unsure of what you are refering to by its difficult to do so.

Realisticly its how bluespace works, if something phases into a solid object, there is going to be complications

[LordFowl]

If you don't want to or are unsure if you're able to teleport larger objects, then just don't?

[PoZe]

This project was discontinued