Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[MissNatcula]

BYOND Key: MissNatcula
Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus
Game ID: bZ4-aHvf
Reason for complaint: I was HOS; second round of HOS on trail mind you. I'm trying to behave myself, show high levels of rp.

I down a 'terrorist' as I knew them and cuff them when that annoying demand to stop pops up from a vampire telling me to release them. I play conflicted because at this point, IDK if the loyal implant does anything against vampire orders so I start making a quick ahelp but in that time Korassh downs me and thralls so I change my ahelp to 'Does the LI effect this in anyway'. Garn says no, so I take the route of my character's brain fucking up and she turns into a stone cold, no emotional husk there to serve her master and nothing else. I do everything told of me from then on and try to stay at least two squares within their range no matter what.

We eventually end up in medbay and Korassh is having a conversation with officers on the other side of a door when; I think anyways, a doctor smashes in a window rushing in and sedates her master. Chaos breaks out but no one touches Korassh. They end up attacking the other vampire that was with us. I stand on top of Korassh to body protect them when I see a order to drag them out to safety so I make that my number one task amongst the chaos. I was low on thirst and food so I was moving really slow. But it seemed fine since no one followed us at first. I make my way towards the elevators when two officers; Harris and Bayer catch up. They do not harm Korassh or my character and just try to drag Korassh away. So I served the same level of aggression just pulling my master back. Ends up in a tug a war. They don't seem to drag them anywhere particular except just away from my character. I follow them, have to go around a few times cause maintenance ends up blocked by Harris body blocking. Eventually it gets to a point Bayer loses grip on Korassh and I get away with Korassh into maintenance. I drag them away so slow from exhaustion of running and literally red thirst and red hunger. I end up running into maintenance which for some reason like six other people are standing in blocking the way. Bayer starts pushing me down and Harris as well and at this point Korassh finally wakes up out of being sedated. I pull out my baton and start trying to knock down Bayer and Harris with it but they are both resist pushing me and knocking it out of my hand and eventually I go down. Meanwhile a fight or something breaks out with the six people in maintenance.

End of story I end up in cuffs, Korassh is seized by security and we both end up in the shuttle brig.

Cue in Garn. I get a warn because I displayed 'unhealthy rp behavior'. That I some how ignored him when he told me LI have no effect on you when thralled; which I followed. Apparently my 'rp' was a repeated behavior from many people who just don't want to put in effort; which honestly has nothing to do with me, and from how he worded it;

[Head Admin PM] Garnascus: and i have definitely seen you be way more robust in combat situations

I was expected to play like a robust, head splitting, barbarian and didn't try hard enough to protect my master. I don't play consistently the same. Yeah sure; some rounds I robust every criminal. But there are some rounds I end up flat on my ass with Lin whaling like a baby in fright. At no point in this thrall rp was I told to kill anyone or do anything lethal. I was ordered to protect my master from harm; he was never harmed, and drag him to safety. But apparently me having zero thirst and zero hunger and playing Lin emotionless and just there to follow orders was 'intentionally slow' and 'messing up intentionally' the entire time.

I feel I did not deserve a warn for that. I was playing a role; rping it the entire time and mind you, you can end up seeing the spam of me being thirsty and hungry, and was following my masters orders. I wasn't playing rambo the robusting thrall with a kill count of 9000. If either of those officers harmed Korassh at all, even a simple slap, my character would have pulled that rifle off her back in two seconds flat and slayed them. But the fact of the matter was she was just dragging them away, they were dragging them back from her. I don't think that warrants my thralled character to 'robust' them. I'm not here to win. I'm here to roleplay. As in take a role. That role being a thrall who was emotionless, devoted, husk who only cared if her master was unharmed and within her reach, free and unbound by cuffs.

Before I was bwionked the two vampires had NO ISSUE with my roleplay. But as soon as they lose they have a problem? I'm only saying this since I assume Korassh ahelp'd me in the end of it. Funny how the whole time I was thralled and rping no emotion and like a husk no one said anything but then when combat happens and we end up on the shuttle brig its suddenly all my fault and I get warned for it.

I'd like my warn removed for this situation and honestly Garn to take some damn responsibility for the mistake. You can't punish me because I didn't play Lin the law busting warrior exactly how you imagined. Rp changes things. Don't punish me because in the end you suddenly don't agree with how it went down.

Evidence/logs/etc: Entire logs of my round start to finish. https://pastebin.com/ixcQvxN0
Additional remarks: This isn't the first time Garn has sprung rather 'play a winner over a rper' mentality.

[Garnascus]

Hello

I gave you this warning for the following reasons. 

1. You claimed you where acting a certain way due to your loyalty implant messing with you.
2. You claimed you where not ordered to do so when i asked you why you did not shoot the people trying to pull the vampire away. 

So i will address point number 1 first. You ahelped previously and asked how the LI affects being thralled. I told you that if a full powered vamp enthralls you then it overrides the LI. Thats it. It doesnt exist. you're still completely you and completely normal except you're a slave to a vampire. I felt that given your reasoning of "well i was not ordered to do so" was an attempt to be intentionally slow. The end being placing the vampire who enthralled you at a disadvantage. I defend this statement with a number of premises. Some anecdotale. 

1. I have personally seen you be very robust at combat when you need to be. You know when to shoot. You know when to stun. You're a sec main. You dont survive in this role without being familiar with combat. 
2. you follow the textbook behavior pattern i have seen so many times. I am willing to believe you are not doing this intentionally. I think most do not do it intentionally. The pattern is thus. 

A. Get enthralled/subverted/coerced by antag
B. ahelp with a "can i do x? should y stop x" in this case its if your LI overrides the enthralling. I am reasonably certain you wanted me to tell you that the enthrallment was invalid. 
C. With no alternative the player begins "playing worse". almost always it comes down to "well if X does not explicitly tell me to do it i wont do it!" or "well.... ill just... play a little worse". The end result of course being that the vampire is at a disadvantage. 

Now again, i must repeat that i am willing to believe you did not do this intentionally. A warning is pretty much the lowest form of punishment i can give you. It is an advisory to remind you the place of the loyalty implant and how we expect you to play if you are ever subverted by nefarious means. 

[MissNatcula]

1. I never claimed I was acting a certain way due to LI, I originally asked if it effected then instead changed the rp I had in mind to play something else. And that was the end of that. I had originally planned for her to have extreme conflicting loyalties that caused her pain and she struggling, then failing to win. Forced to obey helplessly watching as her own actions play against her. It would have been an amazing, deep, conflicting, and frightening sight for people that knew Lin to see her torn and puppeted against her will. Instead, I stripped her of personality and didn't do that because there would be no 'conflict'. She was completely over written by thralling and lost a large piece of herself. That piece that OTHERWISE would HAVE rebelled.

You never explained that I was still me. That it just didn't compel me to follow my loyalty to NT anymore. Basically, thrall negates implant. Previously, before thrall it would have existed still and since the power over took her she was changed negatively since its drastically changed her loyalties, personal being and own self control.

PM to-Staff : How does being thralled work with being loyal implanted?

[Head Admin PM] Garnascus: they are full powered so it overrides the implant

2. I 'claimed', to Garnascus: Wasn't told to do anything but drag them away and they were not harming her master nor her to a degree that warranted it.

You assuming that as 'Oh you are only following word for word' is out of context and untrue. I just explained above that they did not harm my master, were not using lethal force against me nor my master. Why would I shoot them with a lethal rifle? Thralling doesn't make you a mass murderer. YOU JUST counteracted yourself Garn by literally saying,

'you're still completely you and completely normal except you're a slave to a vampire'

Oh and here is the thrall blurb when you are thralled,

'You have been forced into a blood bond by Korassh Guwan, and are thus their thrall. While a thrall may feel a myriad of emotions towards their master, ranging from fear, to hate, to love; the supernatural bond between them still forces the thrall to obey their master, and to listen to the master's commands.'

If I'm still ME except a 'slave' then Lin, as her, WOULD NOT SHOOT WITH LETHALS unless ordered to. Because Lin doesn't use lethal force unless FORCED to. You just dug your own hole by literally saying that. How can you be so blind to your own hypocrisy.

You claim to know me so well yet are surprised when Lin the thrall acts exactly like Lin, but a thrall. I threw out her usual personality to play a stripped version of her but she still has her same play style in mind. She will mimic forced used against herself. Push her? She'll push. Shoot her with lethals? She'll shoot back. Only added variable is she has a master to serve and protect. Which she did. But because it wasn't up to your 'standard' I get warned for it is what you are saying. What you are literally saying, right there. You psycho analyse me and because you assume after I asked a question I suddenly played 'worse' you rag on me, seek out a reason to warn me, and then do so.

 

I can't seriously be the only one reading this that doesn't also see this.

[Garnascus]

11 hours ago, MissNatcula said:

If I'm still ME except a 'slave' then Lin, as her, WOULD NOT SHOOT WITH LETHALS unless ordered to. Because Lin doesn't use lethal force unless FORCED to. You just dug your own hole by literally saying that. How can you be so blind to your own hypocrisy.

You could just aim at them or something. Something i have also seen you do. I dont know why you think i wanted you to murder them all. 

Quote

  to Garnascus: Well I was playing on the fact of the loyal implant messing her. She was protecting her master. Like I said, if they had harmed him at all she would have killed them on the spot. But they only just cuffed them and dragged them around.

to Garnascus: I know that. I wasn't saying it did anything but make her flat. Not herself anymore. She was just a husk following orders.

This is the line of reasoning i took issue with. 

Quote

PM to-Staff : How does being thralled work with being loyal implanted?

[Head Admin PM] Garnascus: they are full powered so it overrides the implant

This is why. 

Listen i dont think you where trying to fuck over the vampire after reading this. I can edit the warning to only keep the portion mentioning the loyalty implant. I am sorry but i did explicitly tell you the loyalty implant was overridden. You then by your own admission roleplayed with it still taken into account. These two statements are incompatible. 

[Seeli]

I play Georgene Harris.

MissNatcula rp’d Lin really well. It was very spooky and fighting with her for the KO’d Korassh was NOT easy. It was challenging, fun, and maintained a level of spooky RP throughout that I really appreciated. Neither side WANTED to kill the other, which made it all the more thrilling and impactful. I can see where the warning is coming from, but it was far spookier to have that change come over her. I even thought the LI was why it was happening OOCly, so it made sense. And being a subject of that vampire's mind control a few times, they did not tell me to kill anyone either, only ever detain them. I think Malone was the only one told to kill and his target was Georgene. It was very clever and created great rp.

Harris was really upset to see Lin so zombie-like and wanted to save her from Guwan and Salvos, but she didn’t even have her stunbaton anymore. She had to take Lin’s right at the end and it was NOT easy to do. The logs don’t show how much running and maneuvering we were doing during those fights in the dark powerless station, from medbay, to the elevators, up to the maintenance tunnels on the surface and near cargo. It was intense and I am grateful to MissNatcula for not escalating to lethal force. She outran and outmaneuvered TWO officers, alone, for SO LONG. If not for people crowding in maintenance to shelter from radiation stopping her progress, she would have escaped!

I am sorry for saying my piece, but considering how amazing that round was for many involved with the vampire and his thralls, I hope this warning can be dropped.

[Alberyk]

As garn pointed out, loyalty implants do not really matter when you are thralled by a vampire or suffer from a dominate, since that means they are powerful enough. A thrall should also do all that they can to help their master. However, as garn pointed out, you did take the LI in consideration, what do you think of the proposal of changing the warning to fit it better?

[Bear]

22 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Now again, i must repeat that i am willing to believe you did not do this intentionally. A warning is pretty much the lowest form of punishment i can give you

Then why punish at all if you didn't think it was a purposeful action? Human mistakes are, after all, just that. Make a note and the simple bwoink should suffice? Changing the 'reason' on a warning just seems like you're trying to make sure the warning sticks.

Just saying as one of the involved palyers, I found the RP far more interesting then her going las' out forcing us to use our weapons as well. She wasn't the only person with lethals on them. The point emphasized in sec is not to escalate things unnecessarily. Any of us could have been far more "robust" in the way we approached the combat there but that isn't the point of it, if she's still her, she is going to follow the same thought line she would have even before being thralled. Had it just gone to flat out shooting I personally know I would have had a lot less fun in that rp vs the time we had playing literal tug of war with antag lin and trying not to piss her off as we (as always) were trying to prevent more people from being hurt. In the end, she would have gotten away if it hadn't been for the crowd blocking them to avoid radiation. Don't really see how this or her change in persona on her approach to flavoring a rational to being a thrall was "unhealthy rp" if anything, it seems more the opposite.

But that's my two cents. Take it as such.

[Garnascus]

27 minutes ago, Bear said:

Then why punish at all if you didn't think it was a purposeful action? 

read the thread before you post please. I told them the LI was overridden. they took the LI into account. 

[Mogelix]

Dont you consider that more then the Loyalty Implant may be at play?

"you're still completely you and completely normal except you're a slave to a vampire"

 

If you have a scrap of humanity, even without a loy imp, you may hold back from using lethals.

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, Mogelix said:

Dont you consider that more then the Loyalty Implant may be at play?

 

No

8 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Listen i dont think you where trying to fuck over the vampire after reading this. I can edit the warning to only keep the portion mentioning the loyalty implant. I am sorry but i did explicitly tell you the loyalty implant was overridden. You then by your own admission roleplayed with it still taken into account. These two statements are incompatible. 

 

[ben10083]

4 hours ago, Mogelix said:

Dont you consider that more then the Loyalty Implant may be at play?

"you're still completely you and completely normal except you're a slave to a vampire"

 

If you have a scrap of humanity, even without a loy imp, you may hold back from using lethals.

Just here to clear up something. If you are thralled/dominated/something similar...your "humanity" or whatever does not matter, the command or master overrides everything. You are normal in the sense that you can still act like yourself, unless it involves helping/protecting the vampire. You are required by OOC rules to do anything you can to protect your master, lethal or otherwise.

[Alberyk]

@MissNatcula What do you think of my proposal for this complaint?

[MissNatcula]

I think this is more of a issue of LI not having proper description in combination of also thrall/spell possession also being a bit iffy. I'd like it changed; if removable is not a option, and I'll be making a suggestion that LI have a proper implant/starting message for those who have it. I've always thought of LI having a bigger impact then people rp. But tbh you implant a prisoner, or are implanted yourself and there is not even a message about it. How are you suppose to act? What happens when something ions you? Or when some one tries to control you with spells/vamp/whatever.

 

For some reason cult and rev is negated from LI but vampire isn't. You literally get a message when some one tries to force convert you as a cultist about what is happening. But vampire? Nothing. Nothing can be mean a lot of things. Even above people sound a bit conflicted. You are yourself but not? You are forced to aid the vamp but even in the thrall message you can hate them while doing it. Its a gray area honestly...The actions required to protect some one can vary. Are you SUPPOSE to go full lethal or would you still play as yourself, but with the main focus keeping your master alive?

 

But this I'll move to suggestions.

[Alberyk]

As I said, if the vampire is not powerful enough, they get a message that they can't influence you, the person that has the loyalty implant gets nothing. If the vampire can use your powers on you, they are surely powerful enough to do so, so you gotta obey them. You might be yourself, but you gotta do all you can do help your master as I explained, you don't really have free will anymore, as you are nothing a but a puppet of the vampire now. I think that changing the warning is fine here, @Garnascus can do it and we can move with the complaint.

[Garnascus]

yeah i can just change it to something like.... 

"took the loyalty implant into account in their RP when i said it was overridden" 

[Alberyk]

Right, so, Garn will change the warning to make it more clear. You are free to make a suggestion to change this.

I will consider this resolved and I will close this complaint in around 24 hours.