[2 dismissals]Add rule against character clones

[AmoryBlaine]

Recently it came to my attention that it's alright to have multiple characters look exactly the same, as long as their names are not similar, and they act differently. This is probably one of the oddest rulings I've heard. Essentially, this justifies any one of us to use a single character template, and play multiple roles as this character template, with zero physical differences- but as long as they each differed slightly, you would be able to get away with this. How would one go about proving they are the same? Spending their own time taking screenshots of text and reactions to different situations between these characters, in a hope of being able to cross reference and find enough similarities? Everyone knows they're the same, but due to the nature of this game and it's system for punishment, you'd need evidence. So, let's cut out this middleman.

It's odd. It's not conducive to having unique and interesting characters when you're effectively allowed to play the same one ad infinitum, as long as they differ slightly.

[legitimatespaceperson]

Please explain what constitutes "physical difference".

Skin tone? Eye color? Limbs (biological or prosthetic)? Hair color & style? These are the four things you can do in character setup to differentiate.

From these four, eye color is hardly ever noticeable, hair color and style are but barely so - mostly to tell whether someone is male or female at a glance (and this only applies to humans anyhow), and limbs only show up in examine or mechanically (sparking when broken and such).

I also take issue with you saying

7 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Everyone knows they're the same

because character clones are not something I, as a player, see to the point of being able to tie "white human male with blonde pompadour and robot right leg" to a specific ckey. If you mean specific behaviors such as accents, etc., the admins already ruled you're supposed to act differently than your other characters, which you yourself note.

[Garnascus]

No i dont like this for a variety of reasons. 

1. It is incredibly difficult to moderate

EDIT

We cant see pictures like we can in-game. Makes it annoying. 

2. It assumes players are acting in bad faith

I will quote you here 

1 hour ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Everyone knows they're the same, but due to the nature of this game and it's system for punishment, you'd need evidence. So, let's cut out this middleman.

I think you have already decided that someone is engaging in some level of deception if they apply one character's look to another one. I think it is more likely they just prefer a certain look and unconsciously apply it to other characters they create. I think its super unreasonable to bwoink someone because their character looks like one of their other characters. 

3. Its just not an issue. 

I do not think this is a thing people do a lot. In fact its an anomaly when i see even two different player's character look similar. I am not really in the business of creating policy or rules for things i do not see as issues. In conclusion i feel that this is far too much effort for absolutely no gain and the entire premise of this suggestion is inappropriate. 

[Aphelion]

Yeah..

-1

If someone wants to be dull and RP the same personality across all their characters, it's no real harm done.

[AmoryBlaine]

21 minutes ago, legitimatespaceperson said:

Please explain what constitutes "physical difference".

Skin tone? Eye color? Limbs (biological or prosthetic)? Hair color & style? These are the four things you can do in character setup to differentiate.

From these four, eye color is hardly ever noticeable, hair color and style are but barely so - mostly to tell whether someone is male or female at a glance (and this only applies to humans anyhow), and limbs only show up in examine or mechanically (sparking when broken and such).

I also take issue with you saying

because character clones are not something I, as a player, see to the point of being able to tie "white human male with blonde pompadour and robot right leg" to a specific ckey. If you mean specific behaviors such as accents, etc., the admins already ruled you're supposed to act differently than your other characters, which you yourself note.

This is about character clones. It's not some slippery slope, or something you can get confused with. It's when someone uses the exact same template for all their characters, and more often then not gives each of these characters a very minute difference, or none at all.

22 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

No i dont like this for a variety of reasons. 

1. It is incredibly difficult to moderate

We do not have access to information on what your character looks like. We have no ability to check your current character's looks against characters you have played in the past.  

2. It assumes players are acting in bad faith

I will quote you here 

I think you have already decided that someone is engaging in some level of deception if they apply one character's look to another one. I think it is more likely they just prefer a certain look and unconsciously apply it to other characters they create. I think its super unreasonable to bwoink someone because their character looks like one of their other characters.  

3. Its just not an issue. 

I do not think this is a thing people do a lot. In fact its an anomaly when i see even two different player's character look similar. I am not really in the business of creating policy or rules for things i do not see as issues. In conclusion i feel that this is far too much effort for absolutely no gain and the entire premise of this suggestion is inappropriate. 

Doesn't the web interface tell you nearly every detail about all of a player's characters? I am assuming players are acting in bad faith. There's no reason you would copy paste your character's design on to another slot, unless it was to play as that character with either the intent of playing a different job. It shows an understanding of the rules, but a lack of willingness to legitimately change characters.

It's an issue as far as I'm concerned, and I'll keep pushing the policy, and advocating against this sort of behavior.

24 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Yeah..

-1

If someone wants to be dull and RP the same personality across all their characters, it's no real harm done. 

This is a game based entirely around character interaction. If the characters are repeats with slight differences in personality, while all appearing the same, and jumping across roles, how is that not harmful? Especially if they're, as you say, dull?

[Garnascus]

6 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Doesn't the web interface tell you nearly every detail about all of a player's characters? 

it does not give us visual information

7 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

There's no reason you would copy paste your character's design on to another slot

You are attributing to malice that which is easily explainable by far less nefarious means. That of comfort specifically and unconsciously at that. It is completely reasonable for a player to just be comfortable with a certain look. This is fine to do. 

10 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

It's an issue as far as I'm concerned, and I'll keep pushing the policy, and advocating against this sort of behavior.

You are free to do so. Unfortunately only one of us is headmeme.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Garnascus said:

You are attributing to malice that which is easily explainable by far less nefarious means. That of comfort specifically and unconsciously at that. It is completely reasonable for a player to just be comfortable with a certain look. This is fine to do. 

And that's my issue. I don't particularly care if it's less nefarious than suspension evasion. if it leads to a poorer experience for other players who have eyes and are capable of noticing when a character is being repeated, I would rather it not be something I have to put up with. Allowing a player to create the same character, over and over, but requiring them to make subtle differences that cannot be gauged by staff, means we, the players, likely can't tell either. If you cannot break a bond with how your character looks, and feel a need to replicate it across all your characters, I have a hinting suspicion that you won't have an easy time creating distinct behavior and characteristics.

Just now, Garnascus said:

You are free to do so. Unfortunately only one of us is headmeme.

I'm well aware, Garn. If I cannot get the policy through, I would like to make the topic at the very least known, and spoken of.

[Zundy]

By "look the same" do you mean their sprite and flavor text or just their sprite?

[AmoryBlaine]

3 minutes ago, Zundy said:

By "look the same" do you mean their sprite and flavor text or just their sprite?

Typically these sorts of characters do not actually have any flavour text. A testament to the amount of thought and detail put in when copy-pasting your character to a new character slot. Though, I would not say keeping the exact same sprite while changing the flavour text would exempt one from my ruling on it. If you use the same character sprite, it's cloning the character nearly every single time. Maybe there's an outlier of an outlier where you just can't be assed to edit the sprite variables, but are willing to write up new FT, but I find that unlikely. Sprites are avatars, for the flavour text, and character one is playing as. If you are repeatedly using the same sprite, that more than likely means you, yourself, are identifying as the sprite. That's not to say you look like the sprite, but it becomes a calling card for you. Or, you're just too lazy to change the sprite. Either way, I don't think it should be happening.

That was in regards to, 'less than malicious' reasons for re-using the same character sprite.

[Conspiir]

Huh. Can't say I've ever noticed this. All a character is, physically, is a collection of pixels. One might argue all Dionae are the same because all of them have the same sprite, they just have different names and jobs and act a little differently.

 

At the end of the day, not everyone is a master roleplayer, nor is it a requirement to be one to play on Aurora. Some people are still getting the hang of it, and they're working with what they know and like. It doesn't sound like this very small niche you seem to have found is the End Times. It really just sounds like a new guy trying to figure out where he fits in this mess we call a server, and isn't even malicious in doing it.

[Zundy]

I dunno man, the sprites are basic and though it's obvious they just copied one character slot, if the characters act differently, have different motivations and especially if they have different flavor texts it's a non issue imo. They're not even doing anything wrong other than being slightly lazy. I don't get why this would impact you in anyway.

 

Can you give an example of this being an issue? You don't need to name names just a hypothetical or real issue.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Zundy
T Y P O S

[AmoryBlaine]

6 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

At the end of the day, not everyone is a master roleplayer, nor is it a requirement to be one to play on Aurora. Some people are still getting the hang of it, and they're working with what they know and like. It doesn't sound like this very small niche you seem to have found is the End Times. It really just sounds like a new guy trying to figure out where he fits in this mess we call a server, and isn't even malicious in doing it.

It is not new players. And, it's really only a niche because usually people who do this end up being banned eventually. It's hardly about being a roleplayer, honestly. I am not very good at roleplay, but I at the very least go out of my way to make sure my characters are not the same person. And the first step in doing this, is making them all physically different. There's a large difference between two different player's characters looking the exact same, and the same player's characters looking exactly the same. I would say this policy is in the same camp as people who make a family of brothers and sisters, rather than actually branch out.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Zundy said:

I dunno man, the sprites are basic and though it's obvious they just copied one character slot, if the characters act differently, have different motivations and especially if they have different flavor texts it's a non issue imo. They're not even doing anything wrong other than being slightly lazy. I don't get why this would impact you in anyway.

Why would this impact me? Because as a player, you're expected to interact with these clones. I've yet to meet a character clone that was not the same as the original, with the exceptions being slight differences in behavior, but all the while being very clearly the same character. Sprite simplicity, is all the more reason why we shouldn't encourage repeat use. This is not a text-only game, there's a reason more than half the screen is of sprites.

[Zundy]

So the real issue is that they are NOT changing their behaviour/doing so in such a bad faith, trivial way just to avoid a bwoink?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Zundy
Changed stuff

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Zundy said:

So the real issue is that they are NOT changing their behaviour/doing so in such a bad faith, trivial way just to avoid a bwoink?

As I said originally " but as long as they each differed slightly, you would be able to get away with this. How would one go about proving they are the same? Spending their own time taking screenshots of text and reactions to different situations between these characters, in a hope of being able to cross reference and find enough similarities? Everyone knows they're the same, but due to the nature of this game and it's system for punishment, you'd need evidence. So, let's cut out this middleman."
 

It's more so that in order to effectively ahelp and have this sort of behavior nipped in the bud, you'd need to have the player actively gathering information on the character(s), rather than just being able to do the more reasonable thing and say, "X and Y are the same character, literally just look at the sprite, they're played by the same player, it's not that hard of a jump to make. Tell them to stop." Maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't like having to prep my ahelps for a few days or weeks in advance.

 

I still don't really understand the arguement of,

58 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

comfort specifically and unconsciously at that. It is completely reasonable for a player to just be comfortable with a certain look.

Why is the OOC comfort of the player being considered when creating the IC look of a character they intend to play? This behavior would suggest a deeper attachment to that character, meaning every time they replicate it, they're likely replicating the same character traits, subconsciously or not. Or maybe, I'm being unreasonable, in my assumption that if they're subconsciously projecting a comforting design, they might also project comforting traits.

[Garnascus]

5 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Why is the OOC comfort of the player being considered when creating the IC look of a character they intend to play?

Because i say so. 

7 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

It's more so that in order to effectively ahelp and have this sort of behavior nipped in the bud, you'd need to have the player actively gathering information on the character(s), rather than just being able to do the more reasonable thing and say, "X and Y are the same character, literally just look at the sprite, they're played by the same player, it's not that hard of a jump to make. Tell them to stop."Maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't like having to prep my ahelps for a few days or weeks in advance.

I am still not convinced this is an issue. It is as difficult for us to prove two characters act the same. 

[AmoryBlaine]

14 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

This behavior would suggest a deeper attachment to that character, meaning every time they replicate it, they're likely replicating the same character traits, subconsciously or not. Or maybe, I'm being unreasonable, in my assumption that if they're subconsciously projecting a comforting design, they might also project comforting traits.

@Garnascus You could at least try and answer the rest.

5 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

I am still not convinced this is an issue. It is as difficult for us to prove two characters act the same. 

So is this more of a "We don't really care." or "We can't actually do anything about this."

 

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

This behavior would suggest a deeper attachment to that character, meaning every time they replicate it, they're likely replicating the same character traits, subconsciously or not. Or maybe, I'm being unreasonable, in my assumption that if they're subconsciously projecting a comforting design, they might also project comforting traits.

My answer to this is the same as the logic in my previous answers. I do not consider this a problem. I suppose i would assuming two identical characters with different names. 

 

6 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So is this more of a "We don't really care." or "We can't actually do anything about this."

That is not what i said.....

Why are you the way you are?

[Ornias]

45 minutes ago, Zundy said:

They're not even doing anything wrong other than being slightly lazy.

2 hours ago, Aphelion said:

If someone wants to be dull and RP the same personality across all their characters, it's no real harm done.

Being lazy is the single worst trait outside of outright malice in roleplay.

 

I agree with Garn that these things aren't necessarily (though they may often be) malice. That said, minor levels of OOC comfort taken at the detriment of the server should not be acceptable. Replicating old character designs without taking effort into creating something more meaningful, under the explanation of OOC comfort, is a selfish playstyle. Why do we allow the exact mimicking of sprites, but not personalities or flavor texts?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Ornias
WHOOPS POSTED

[Zundy]

Because there is limited ways to portray a character. Had they logged in on a different cdkey would you have even noticed let alone cared?

 

[Ornias]

Just now, Zundy said:

Because there is limited ways to portray a character.

This doesn't stand. Nobody has run out of ways to portray a character with the provided tools.

2 minutes ago, Zundy said:

Had they logged in on a different cdkey would you have even noticed let alone cared?

Yes. I cannot see peoples ckeys. I can see when people are creating exact visual copies.

[Garnascus]

15 minutes ago, Ornias said:

. That said, minor levels of OOC comfort taken at the detriment of the server should not be acceptable. Replicating old character designs without taking effort into creating something more meaningful, under the explanation of OOC comfort, is a selfish playstyle. Why do we allow the exact mimicking of sprites, but not personalities or flavor texts?

THE DETRIMENT OF THE SERVER

THE DETRIMENT

OF

THE

SERVER

Ok you have really scared me now. My hands are shaking as i type this. Can you tell me how this is to the server's detriment? I do not think its a big deal for two characters to be similar or mirror certain traits. 

[AmoryBlaine]

28 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

I am still not convinced this is an issue. It is as difficult for us to prove two characters act the same.  

@Garnascus  "It's not an issue." "We can't actually do anything about this."

So, again. Which is it more of?

[Garnascus]

both

[AmoryBlaine]

6 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

THE DETRIMENT OF THE SERVER

THE DETRIMENT

OF

THE

SERVER

Ok you have really scared me now. My hands are shaking as i type this. Can you tell me how this is to the server's detriment? I do not think its a big deal for two characters to be similar or mirror certain traits. 

Why are you so angry over this? What about this is causing you to lose your temper, when it's been nothing but civil discussion? You explode at me in the discord, and you explode at him here. How exactly is "We don't really care." far off from, "We don't view this as an issue." Do you view it with care? Is this something that concerns you? If so, why is it not an issue. You realize these words are interchangeable in the context, right? So why do you need to attack me and insult my IQ and act as though I'm far out of line for interchanging these words, when they convey the same meaning? You don't think this is an issue, your stance is, "Well I'm the Headmin." This doesn't convey caring. Maybe you're indifferent, but if that's the case- again- why are you exploding at us, specifically me?

 

Right, because you don't like me. Well you don't see me acting like a fucking asshole, just because I don't like you.