Forcegloves: what they are and where to put them

[duck]

Have you ever wondered why a balding greyshirt is just as strong as your ex-military olympian weightlifter? Why an ancient 80-year-old can send you sprawling just as easily?

you are going to have to keep wondering, but look at these cool glove things

Forcegloves. High-tech things you wear around your hands and fingers that bend gravity and bluespace, dampening inertia and amplifying your strength. They augment melee damage, and disarm/grab/harm intents.

Disarm: You still only have a 25% chance of pushing people, but when you do, you hurl them to the floor and they GO FLYING. Also it stuns for 6 ticks instead of 3. Might change normal disarms to launch people also and include a very minor one-tick stun. Edit: did it.

Grab: You instantly strong-grab someone instead of weak-grab. This lets you quickly throw people away, or table them. Just like in the good old days. An issue is that it also lets you speed neckgrab people, which the vox can also apparently do when they leap. Willing to leave it in for now.

Weapons and punches: Your damage is multiplied by the forceglove amplification level. This makes you very, very good at making people dead. Up close, anyway.

What it does not do: It does *not* alter throw damage, because quite frankly the thought of a superstrong floortile chucker that throws tiles at you and impales you against the wall with them is terrifying and no i will not allow it. maybe as an admin only or a very expensive telecrystal thing i don't know

Amplification levels will be in a range of values between 1.5 and 3, with 1.5 being the most basic. Should 2 be the most basic, just to keep numbers even? To get *3, you'll have to modify the gloves which will short out the safeties and might end in your horrible, fiery demise. Not sure if I will implement that in the first place. The highest you're likely to get is *2.5.

Two different proposals.

Proposal One: giving the HoS a pair, and throwing the high-power variants into traitor PDAs and R&D. Naturally, these will be illegal for civilian possession so sec can totally arrest scientists who take them out of research and random traitor schmucks who have them on sight.

ALTERNATIVELY

Proposal Two: This is probably too radical, but I wouldn't mind making them security-standard and giving the HoS a high-power variant and taking them out of R&D altogether. This would give sec a leg up when it comes to not shooting people, but giving them to your average terriblecop might be a little alarming. Although, y'know, they already have tasers and stun batons so it's not really changing too much so

Anyway, I need thoughts and comments. Maybe telecrystal cost suggestions. Tweaks and stuff. Opinions. yes.

[mrimatool]

I love the idea, and I think maybe make them a research item? So HoS doesn't start with them, traitors can telecrystal them in and scientists can research them.

I'm a little concerned about having super strong HoS' ooooh maybe make them an armoury item?

[Jamini]

Security needs no buffs. Experimental equipment (Like this) should be research-derived, not given to the HOS "just because". I'm entirely against giving any form of this to security without research first developing it.

It does have interesting potential as antagonist gear.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I want this. What I want even more is for EVERY hit to have the ability to send people flying down a hall, and then give them a sprite resembling a displacer glove from Fallout.

[duck]

Okayso. Science has been disappointing me terribly as of late. While science is generally supposed to give stuff to the station and they have a lot of cool things to give, they rarely if ever fork over any of it. Things are a bit too cliquish and it just doesn't work out in practice.

So I want the people who should actually have them to have them, with the option for scientists to fool around if they must. The 'security needs no buffs' mentality isn't really one I want to encourage. Mechanically, a dedicated science or medical or cargo crew has better firepower than sec, although medical is barely pushing it.

Anyway, it's not a matter of need. More of thematics and style. Powerful as they are, these gloves ssstiiilll fall short of the power spectrum compared to stungloves, which are easy and cheap to obtain. The only thing marking them as 'experimental' is an arbitrary lore decision, and it would be easy to make some stupid lower-tech mass-produceable explanation like, um. nanites or i don't know.

Alsoalso, I can make every hit send people flying. Hulks used to have this when they punched people. The thing is, though, it gets *really annoying* to beat people down and I think it would be an unwelcome decision for the most part.

also, these need sprites because they are currently black gloves. yes.

[Jamini]

Science not giving out equipment isn't a reason to cut them out of the loop by any means. A player mentality like that (which is primarily caused by the severe consequences that SECURITY will levy against scientists that try and distribute equipment, not science's willingness to give out equipment) needs to be addressed in-game, not through mechanics.

Security has by default significantly better equipment than everyone else sans antagonists, and the equipment in the armory is on par or better with anything short of sniper rifles or ERT equipment. A dedicated cargo department does not have equipment to match security without an emag, and the moment science touch guns they will be watched like a hawk by security, command, and administration for abuse. Medical has by no means firepower to outdo security, the best they have are chemicals which require either a syringe gun (which is single shot and can miss/not penetrate basic armor, unless medical is getting equipment from science) or going into melee range and STILL risking a harmsyringe not penetrating armor. The hypospray and autoinjectors are slightly stronger, but both require going into melee range against guys armed with armor, tasers, lasers, and lethal projectiles. Mechanically your argument about other departments having more firepower than security holds exactly zero water.

Security have enough tools to handle their jobs. I see no reason why they need these gloves at round start at all. These sound, feel, and smell like a high-tech set of equipment to improve the abilities of an unarmed person. Something that is very explicitly and fully in science's field.

[duck]

Medical: Defib paddles serve as a stun baton on harm. Chem grenades, which have the capability to instantly kill an entire group of sec officers and can be spammed with relatively minimal effort. Could say genetics powers, but that's a stretch.

Cargo doesn't need an emag to open crates. And it doesn't need to break into engineering either. After that, sniper rifles and shotguns.

Science: Gun manufacture is the laaaast thing I'm referring to when it comes to the power scale. It takes a long time to set up and isn't generally worth considering. Although, y'know, I guess I can get a gun in under ten minutes as a scientist without getting caught a hundred percent of the time so. Science's strength comes from essentially being a miniature station unto themselves and having more or less all the (relevant) tools of engineering and medical within easy reach, plus a lot of other stuff. A lot of which I'm not willing to share in detail with just anyone because, y'know. Trade secrets. I'm not about to tell any forum-reader just how to powergame to hell and back.

Your argument basically boils down to 'they don't need it so they shouldn't have it.' Which is funny, because it seems like it only applies to sec. Does science need these? Doubtful. Does science need guns or bombs or telesci? Did medbay need surgery added? Did heads need pets? Did anyone need tcomms? You know the only combat-oriented equipment ordinary sec officers have gained-- not the warden, mind-- since the very, very start of when SS13 first became open source? Pepper spray. HUDglasses if you want to be pedantic. That's it.

Science was originally just toxins. Medbay was originally just people you stole bruise packs and ointment from, or let them apply it to you if you feel like being nice. Engineering was the thermal engine, which you basically just set on fire and leave. Did they need any of what was added?

Already said it's not a matter of need. It's a matter of flavor and style and thematics. If you wanted gain and advantages, you'd make a pair of stungloves. Officers aren't going to see much if any mechanical advantage from these because stun batons and tasers are good at what they do: ending fights immediately. At most, they stand to gain some extra damage (Which, if every officer gets one, will probably only happen for the HoS as a toggle), and the thematically amazing ability to hurl grayshirts down hallways or maybe speedtable someone. Not much else. Nothing a stun baton or taser can't handle better, more quickly, and more efficiently.

Science has nothing that improves the abilities of an unarmed person. Why shouldn't sec officers be harder to beat in combat than a normal person? Give me a real argument, please. Not this 'I hate sec so they can't have anything nice ever wah' stuff. Because that's really, really tiring. You want it to go to science. Science has more content than half the jobs in the game combined. Ideally, they have nothing to do with combat. Why do they need it?

If it's because it's too high-tech for sec, you and I both know there are a hundred different ways to fluff something. It's stable tech, or works because of nanites, or maybe NT is just willing to up the budget. That's an argument for changing the fluff, not for denying them to sec.

[Dea Tacita]

As always dear Duck. Brilliant

I like the idea of the proposed item honestly, but I'm not really sure where I stand on the topic of where they should go, I feel like sec would just abuse them, but then again science abuses things all the time.

[Jamini]

Medical: Defib paddles serve as a stun baton on harm. Chem grenades, which have the capability to instantly kill an entire group of sec officers and can be spammed with relatively minimal effort. Could say genetics powers, but that's a stretch.

 

Wasn't aware defib paddles did that, not something I usually use. I'll keep that in mind.

Chem grenades are really only strong against trapped/unaware opponents. The timer and smoke take time to propagate out, and I've readily dodged a few chemgrenade attacks in my times just by being alert. Not to mention that they are not FoF or targeted.

 

Cargo doesn't need an emag to open crates. And it doesn't need to break into engineering either. After that, sniper rifles and shotguns.

 

Ah right, I forgot that you guys have advanced weapons order-able without emagging the console for a specops crate here. Either way, cargo is really only roughly even to security when going full powergame. Except they also have a smaller crew compliment and a much harder to defend territory.

 

Science: Gun manufacture is the laaaast thing I'm referring to when it comes to the power scale. It takes a long time to set up and isn't generally worth considering. Although, y'know, I guess I can get a gun in under ten minutes as a scientist without getting caught a hundred percent of the time so. Science's strength comes from essentially being a miniature station unto themselves and having more or less all the (relevant) tools of engineering and medical within easy reach, plus a lot of other stuff. A lot of which I'm not willing to share in detail with just anyone because, y'know. Trade secrets. I'm not about to tell any forum-reader just how to powergame to hell and back.

 

Science does have everything, but all of the main tools they use take time to implement. Sure, you can get a gun in under ten minutes. A similarly powergaming officer can be in your lab in sixy seconds and have you downed too. Or an alert/traitorous AI can disable you in even less time. The main strength of science is its flexibilty, but the main weakness is that most/all of science's strongest things can readily backfire on them in spectatular ways. Most toxins researchers have stories about blowing themselves up accidentally, Xenobiology maiming themselves on slimes is a SS13 meme, Genetics disabilities can be utterly crippling (and going hulk opens you up to getting shot lots by everyone). Let's not forget that they have a pretty severe lack of EVA equipment or armor, meaning that face to face scientists are pretty squishy if you can get close enough or just rip out a wall to their labs.

 

Your argument basically boils down to 'they don't need it so they shouldn't have it.' Which is funny, because it seems like it only applies to sec. Does science need these? Doubtful. Does science need guns or bombs or telesci? Did medbay need surgery added? Did heads need pets? Did anyone need tcomms? You know the only combat-oriented equipment ordinary sec officers have gained-- not the warden, mind-- since the very, very start of when SS13 first became open source? Pepper spray. HUDglasses if you want to be pedantic. That's it.

 

Science exists to test experimental things. Telesci, Materials, Xenobiology, and Xenoarchology were all added to give them things to test.

Medbay was greatly improved by surgery, even if the rest of the station suffered for it.

Telecomms is a fantastic addition to the game, as it makes people actually RP quite a bit. Losing telecoms is the fastest way to get a crew transfer vote.

You forgot to mention engineering in that. We've got several tricks and things we can do to be utterly lethal. ZAS is a cruel mistress to the uninitiated.

Also, stating security has gained nothing for combat is blatantly untrue.

Security has gained the following since SS13 went open source:

Sniper Rifles

Modified Lethal Revolvers (For aurora)

Combat Shotguns

Security Hardsuits

Ablative Armor

Secglasses (They originally only had ordinary sunglasses)

Webbing

Ion Rifles

Plasma pistols

Plasma Rifles

Beepsky

 

Science was originally just toxins. Medbay was originally just people you stole bruise packs and ointment from, or let them apply it to you if you feel like being nice. Engineering was the thermal engine, which you basically just set on fire and leave. Did they need any of what was added?

 

From a design and gameplay perspective, yes. The bulk of the major changes to the game that were added were a net benefit to the game as a whole, and in part why it has lasted as long as it has. I've played on older builds of SS13, the more modern builds are significantly more enjoyable overall.

 

Already said it's not a matter of need. It's a matter of flavor and style and thematics. If you wanted gain and advantages, you'd make a pair of stungloves. Officers aren't going to see much if any mechanical advantage from these because stun batons and tasers are good at what they do: ending fights immediately. At most, they stand to gain some extra damage (Which, if every officer gets one, will probably only happen for the HoS as a toggle), and the thematically amazing ability to hurl grayshirts down hallways or maybe speedtable someone. Not much else. Nothing a stun baton or taser can't handle better, more quickly, and more efficiently.

Science has nothing that improves the abilities of an unarmed person. Why shouldn't sec officers be harder to beat in combat than a normal person? Give me a real argument, please. Not this 'I hate sec so they can't have anything nice ever wah' stuff. Because that's really, really tiring. You want it to go to science. Science has more content than half the jobs in the game combined. Ideally, they have nothing to do with combat. Why do they need it?

If it's because it's too high-tech for sec, you and I both know there are a hundred different ways to fluff something. It's stable tech, or works because of nanites, or maybe NT is just willing to up the budget. That's an argument for changing the fluff, not for denying them to sec.

 

I honestly dislike the idea that arguably the most influential and initially powerful department gaining even more of an edge by default. Frankly, security should need to work with science if they want power upgrades. I also strongly feel that secglasses should not exist for anyone but the HOS and Warden, requiring security to get them from science as they used too.

[duck]

Chem-grenades do not have to work on a timer. This makes dodging them significantly, significantly harder. Will agree on the cargo point, post-sniper-nerf by Sounds, best person, though I am still iffy about the high damage on-hit stun. Science has access to excav suits right off the bat, plus space suits from telesci, plus they can walk down to borrow mining hardsuits. The cycler is not ID-locked. Can make ranged weapon that will instantly change someone from full health to completely fully dead in a single hit without time to scream for help. Details withheld for obvious reasons. No materials required. And nothing backfires if you can powergame hard enough, so that's unfortunately not really a weakness.

Didn't mention Engineering because they're kind of lacking for murderous weapons. ZAS is a beautiful thing. Emitter lines and shield generator traps are likewise wonderful. The AI can wipe the entire station of life in about five minutes if it has a mind to, so I don't really include it in any scenarios because an AI operating at full potential can completely overwhelm all opposition.

Alsoalso, I said the default sec officer, off the bat, since we're working off the bat here. They can get plenty more-- over time. Though plasma pistols are an R&D weapon, so I don't know. And I've never seen a plasma rifle. If they're from another codebase, you should tell so I can steal them.

---

It's okay if you don't really have any argument besides disliking the idea. Most people would never consider it. I honestly never really expected it to get passed in the first place, but am pushing for it anyway just in case it actually happens. Even so, the only edge they gain from it is extremely minor and overshadowed by their other advantages. It's a cool side-trinket. That antags can steal and use to great effect. I want all officers to have them not because it adds much utility or power but because it's fun and cool. Anyway. Regarding sec upgrades--

The protopistol was originally meant to be a replacement for the laser rifle. Science would not be able to produce the frames, instead removing parts and upgrading the rifle. Never really got sprites for it though and I just got kind of lazy at some point.

[Guest]

Okay, so. Force gloves.

Under the circumstances that the HoS understands that the force gloves are experimental gear and should probably not be abused like they're the sith of the station or something, I could probably go for proposal one. As long as they're noticably weaker than, say, traitor/R&D advanced variants. But, hey, if it gets abused, it gets removed/tweaked.

[canon35]

IMO, I'd like to see a watered down version for sec officers and the warden, with the HoS getting a regular version. RnD can make the regulars, traitors can get the regulars.

Regarding this little war we're having, just remember this.

Cargo? You can order almost any materials in, and not only that but the miners can produce crossbows with ease.

Science? There's no lockboxes, they can produce almost any weapon if cargo sent materials.

Medical? Chemistry. And the fact that they're the people with the important med supplies. Also, genetics.

Engineering? Emitters. They have everything they need to build a fort. And, plasteel bats.

[CoolfoolFTW]

Would it run off a powercell or something or would it just take up the glove slot?

[mrimatool]

What's funny is everyone is treating this like the departments are at war.. No they're all on the same side.. This isn't some pseudo nations round. These are a hell of a lot cooler than say pepperspray and after hearing Canon's idea I'm quite on that side, sec get shitty ones. HoS/R&D get regs, but maybe Syndies get a mark 3version.

Me and Tish were talking earlier and maybe on the watered down ones you take away the extra punching damage and just add a lot more force so they get chucked about. Because that's extra cool.

[Conspire2Ignite]

H-Hey. G-Guys. You totally remember the NSS Aurora is one entity, right? No one is supposed to have a "leg up" in any sense because everyone is working to the same goal. Security is there to protect those squishy civilians and NT assets. Right? Or is that just a pipe dream I have and it's really always Every Department For Themselves in a mass Who Can Grief Most Efficiently contest?

For instance, the argument that "Medical has Chemistry and can throw grenades so Security should have these powerful gloves" is... I don't really have words for what that is. If you see Samantha Mason running down the hall screaming "GET TA DA FLO' MWOTHAFWUCKA" while chucking poly acid grenades at security, you're high and need to go lie down because you're hallucinating.

What I want to know is what do these gloves bring to the roleplay side of things? Because all I see right now are mechanics. I'm not saying the idea is bad, but why should we add it to our Heavy RP server?

[duck]

It makes officers more imposing. Anyway, it's not a war between departments. That's true. But this is still a game, and for, y'know, the game's sake, we have to look at the tools everyone has available and make sure one side doesn't completely overshadow another. The point is that sec really does not, and that having neato gloves won't change that.

The intention at the moment is: Basic forcegloves for officers will not amplify melee damage, but you can still shove and make people around or speedgrab people. HoS with a pair that can amplify damage. R&D can develop one like the HoS's. Syndies will be able to buy the same one.

RP-wise, it makes it so that officers are -actually- more dangerous than people when they're unarmed. It makes it a little harder for tiny untrained doctors to beat sec down and murder them without giving them any real overwhelming advantage against anyone. Thematics. I'm sure there are other uses. A lot of the game revolves around combat. A lotta people play characters that have some form of self-defense training. This sort of semi-represents that and gives it a mechanical effect. If you're sec or a traitor or something. I'm sure plenty of people can find plenty of uses.

Also disarming people and sending them flying like a sith lord is precious.

also i would pay mason to do that.

[Nik]

People seem to love to imply that Sec has access to the vault all the time. Which is funny, because without someone's to open it, the vault mine as well be full of cat ears and bikini's, for all the "fucking" help it gives them.

Really, sec being able to launch some bastard away whose got stun gloves would be nice. While the fact that we as players can't just have our character be physically stronger then the average scientist due to everyone yelling OMFG TRAINED SEC MAN IS STRONGER THEN ME, SNOWFLAKE BLAH BLAH, I'd like to see sec have a way to constantly win these stupid fucking dash fights where someone does the charleston all over to try and avoid being clicked while trying to hit you with a crowbar.

I don't understand why we must keep giving Science the weapon gear. Research is dumb as is, because we spend every shift making up these items and everyone clearly knows what they are. More to the point, when we added lawgivers I was so vehement and convinced that we'd be seeing them in every scientists hands. But no, no one gives a shit.

And no one will give a shit to make these except to play with them by themselves. Sec would never see a single one of these in 9/10 rounds (by all means say how YOU do it, honest guys, because that's relevant.)

I honestly didn't like the idea upon initial thought, but my brain clicked when I realized it would make sec slightly more advanced and interesting then what they are currently as absolutely garbage on a technical standpoint. These should be standard issue, they don't even sound better then a Stun Baton.

Oh, make them Tajara and Unathi capable. I don't wanna none of that watch shenanigans.

[Nik]

Oh, upon further thought, I'd not add the weapon damage multiplier at all to a standard sec version, or make it 5%. HOS version should only be 20% due to the baton ripping people apart already.

[Guest]

clickybaton is our god and master. praise.

Kind of have to agree with Nik, though. If you're someone like, duck, for instance, the ultimate powergamer in all of existence. Duck will still be more comfortable with 4 full stacks of floor tiles and thermite in her bag compared to a fully-geared up security officer. Probably.

In comparison to other departments, security is actually rather weak and it's very difficult to powergame with what you have as an officer.

Except, maybe, setting flashbang timers to 1 second each to rek everyone.

[Nik]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about afterwards; Sec is really weak in long range sorties, and they lack much in the way of cool sci-fi tech things. These would just be some means for them to at least have one neat thing. At that, if grabs could be more functional we could more easily subdue the average cockwaffle whose doing the tango with a wrench.

[Nik]

For the love of God don't let this die. I'd like to see sec with new toys pretty badly.

[mirkoloio]

This sounds awesome. I can just imagine all the stuff you can do with this!

I'd love to see and use those.

[Flamingo]

I love the idea of these gloves. They're a super cool mechanic and I'm a fan of them.

However, I would NOT like to see security officers buffed. I don't think this would be a good addition to their STARTING gear. Perhaps something they can get along the way, yes, but not starting. Giving security officers yet another tool that they can use to instantly end any confrontation is not something I think they should have. While I agree stun gloves are powerful, it still requires you to get into melee range of an officer, and is easily counterable by the taser.

That being said, I'd be okay with the HoS getting a pair of these at the start, as it would make sense the commander of the security force would be suitably more robust, but every officer being able to instantly throw/push/robust people? No thank you. I think it should be left to RnD to create if anything, as it would still allow security to gain access to them, but without giving them yet another huge early round advantage over everyone else.

It's true security is designed to outclass other departments, especially in the early round, as it's their job to keep everyone else in check. However, I think they already have all the tools they need, if not more. Hell, if it were up to me I'd have flashbangs in the armory and require the warden to pass them out as with any weapon.

Overall, I'd be happy with this being added, but not as a starting item for security officers.

EDIT: I see a lot of arguments that security is not powerful enough. I think that this is more a problem with how people try to powergame officers than with their mechanics. If you're a competent scientist/chemist/engineer/cargo tech, it's true you can robust a security officer. And that's as it should be. They have tools to subdue you. If they don't use them, that's their fault, or the fault of the person who went out of their way to "win" the fight. Just because they CAN be defeated in combat, doesn't mean we should give them weapons to have literally attached to their hands at all times.

[Nik]

The issue is that:

A) Sec has few fun items, and lack any real interesting means to solve combat situations

B) this would just be another way to handle Melee confrontations, it wouldn't increase their power unless you gave them the damage buff

C) if RD has them Sec will never see these in a billion years.

Just give sec some toys. This would let people approach combat with more variation then BATON CUFF PULL.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

Am I the only one who assumed Telekinesis gloves?