Guest Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Creating an immersive environment in which that the security force is actually armed with ranged weaponry that will hurt you if you don't follow the orders of the officer, and providing for situations in which it may or may not be ideal to shoot someone with a gun.
Nik Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Look. I think people are doing that thing again. If someone wants to grief, they would do so anyway. The gun would just be a choice variant to stun gunning then batoning. However, the gun would make more sense, it means security is more well handled at the issues that arose beyond a drunken assistant. Like god damn space wizards. Of course, people who are against this won't change their minds, and nor will I. So this argument is moot.
Dea Tacita Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Let's keep this civil, It's hardly an argument. The point of forums is to facilitate the discussion of topics by our community in a civil manner, remember that.
duck Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 i coded this because i want sec to kill people sue i need the sprite dmi though ltl rounds: weakbullets. 10 brute, 60 agony. it took everything i had not to make it 15 brute so we'd have bones snapping like twigs everywhere you're welcome lethal rounds: midbullet 2. 25 brute. detective bullets. okay. flash rounds: i had a lot of fun making these horrifying and terrible so: these do 5 brute. if you get shot without eye protection, your screen will turn white and you'll be like so blind. it'll last probably like 15-30 seconds (in testing it was in the range of 'a really really long time'). if you shoot turf or a wall or anything it will blind everyone within two tiles. crowd control! but the blind sucks and it's short. by blind, i mean flashblind. not like blindness blind. you can't see anything and it's terrible. and then when you can see again the first thing you'll see is sec shooting lethal rounds at you until you die. in an ideal world.
Vanagandr Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 -shell casing-handgun "fingerprint". You know like how in real life guns have engravings on the inside of the barrel so you can tell if a specific gun fired a specific bullet? I think it could really add to CSI/security if ballistics testing was implemented, so that you could have your CSI see if said officer really did (or did not) fire their firearm. It would also add to covering your tracks if you were an antag sec officer, or abusive. Learn to pick up after yourself or get proven guilty by CSI. It's called 'rifling', and at best it'll tell you what model of gun was used - if the gun was some speshul snoflake design. If not, it'll tell you 'yeah, this was probably a pistol. Maybe.'. There was, IIRC, a fraud thing a while back with some company claiming they had a way to make the gun imprint its serial number on every round fired; turned out it was bullshit. I really don't see what the point to this is. I don't see what's preventing people from abusing guns like these. All I can see from this is more accidental "MEDBAY TO BRIG" incidents. Other than the obvious one-shot-stun, what makes these guns better than using a taser? It's a sidegrade. The idea, summarised, is that as things are Officer McShitcurity can empty his taser into someone for shits and giggles with absolutely no evidence he's done it or repercussions if it isn't witnessed. Rubber bullets, on the other hand, cause actual injuries, leave casings, and go "BANG!" "BANG!" when fired, so taking a shot at Urist McGreyshirt because he's acting suspicious and running away isn't a zero-risk proposition. Because you might break a bone or something when you hit him, and if it turns out he was just in a hurry to get a Donk Pocket while they were still hot, u gonna get fired.
EvilBrage Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Only if we get blue security. A mechanics change doesn't change the mindset of the players - that much is true. However, what this does do is bring us a step closer to Black Mesa, and that's literally the only thing I like about this. Downsides are aplenty, including but not limited to the issue of stray bullets breaking windows (laser window-breakage must be intentional, ballistics can cause them accidentally,) a trial on another server failing (check that hubris at the door, what happened to them can just as easily happen to us,) and a marked shift in balance (security's weakness is that it's primarily short-range, and this is intentional; giving them medium-capacity guns with stun capabilities and 60 agony shots will toss balance to the wind.) If we're absolutely dead-set on giving them guns, I'd say remove flashes and stun batons from their standard loadout to shift their "advantage" from short-range to long-range. And, of course, give them all cool waist holsters or something.
mrimatool Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I agree with you on everything other than removing gear. I'm all for balance, and I'm usually one of the few people wanting to buff antags but I don't think downgrading security just because they get a different type of weapon is a good idea. Antags have the revolver(Which is unnerfed as far as I'm aware, I'd say things are balancing out more.)
Serveris Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 . Antags have the revolver(Which is unnerfed as far as I'm aware, I'd say things are balancing out more.) Â We're making it unable to decapitate targets in two hits. Its current damage rating is remaining unchanged, though, so it's still plenty lethal in a trade-blows firefight with non-ERT responders.
EvilBrage Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 How's it downgrading security? They're getting their stuns and their damage - just in a different form. They're moving from short-ranged takedowns to long-ranged ones, meaning the best chance for someone to survive is either to run away, or to charge at them and disarm them (not unlike real life.) It's just a tradeoff.
canon35 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I think long range stuns would be great, less of a need to go right up to a criminal to get them down when your taser is done for.
mrimatool Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 How's it downgrading security? They're getting their stuns and their damage - just in a different form. They're moving from short-ranged takedowns to long-ranged ones, meaning the best chance for someone to survive is either to run away, or to charge at them and disarm them (not unlike real life.) It's just a tradeoff. Â Well here's the thing, Nanotrasen would want security to be efficient ergo making them flexible. If you take away their batons it'll move people from trying to stay away from the armed officer to trying to disarm his in robust ass. Not the funnest thing for RP
mrimatool Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 . Antags have the revolver(Which is unnerfed as far as I'm aware, I'd say things are balancing out more.) Â We're making it unable to decapitate targets in two hits. Its current damage rating is remaining unchanged, though, so it's still plenty lethal in a trade-blows firefight with non-ERT responders. Â That's fun. Is the detective's revolver getting decaps nerfed too Severis?
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 . Antags have the revolver(Which is unnerfed as far as I'm aware, I'd say things are balancing out more.) Â We're making it unable to decapitate targets in two hits. Its current damage rating is remaining unchanged, though, so it's still plenty lethal in a trade-blows firefight with non-ERT responders. Â That's fun. Is the detective's revolver getting decaps nerfed too Severis? Â I don't think it needs nerfing, or debuffing. It seems fine to me. :s
Kerbal22 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Just a point i have to make here... You are on a space station. in SPACE. Bullets break windows. Windows keep air in. Just to make it clear, You are in space.
SgtSammac Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Just a point i have to make here...You are on a space station. in SPACE. Bullets break windows. Windows keep air in. Just to make it clear, You are in space. Â Just gonna point out. Reinforced windows. I also remember reading somewhere (and I have just spent the last 10 minutes trying to find it again. but I am refering to years back) something about Secret Service having a low velocity (I think) firearm or cartridge, that was design so that it can still cause damage to a person, but wouldn't damage an aircraft skin/windows. I am aware that with aircraft you still have an atmosphere, but thats not really my point. Eitherway, I can actually see the points presented either side, both lore wise and just Mechanic/OOC wise. But to be honest with you, 400 years in the future, the walls and reinforced windows are gonna be far stronger than they are today. *shrugs* I dunno.
mrimatool Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Just a point i have to make here...You are on a space station. in SPACE. Bullets break windows. Windows keep air in. Just to make it clear, You are in space. Â Just gonna point out. Reinforced windows. I also remember reading somewhere (and I have just spent the last 10 minutes trying to find it again. but I am refering to years back) something about Secret Service having a low velocity (I think) firearm or cartridge, that was design so that it can still cause damage to a person, but wouldn't damage an aircraft skin/windows. I am aware that with aircraft you still have an atmosphere, but thats not really my point. Eitherway, I can actually see the points presented either side, both lore wise and just Mechanic/OOC wise. But to be honest with you, 400 years in the future, the walls and reinforced windows are gonna be far stronger than they are today. *shrugs* I dunno. Â Like I said, windows+space=not good usually, we'd be going so fast while in orbit that they'd break easily if they weren't say.. Reinforced with I don't know... Plasteel. You'd think some plasteel would be a lot stronger than bulletproof windows, so really windows wouldn't break with the firearms. The lasers however would be able to melt it.
Nik Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Yeah, from an IC and Mechanic standpoint, Lasers beat out ballistics for window smashing. I said this like four pages ago, but 3 hits from any laser weapon bursts a window, and I THINK it's five for most ballistic weapons. And you need to go through two panes and the grate.
Guest Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Quoting my post from the other thread about the suggestion on forcegloves. Is the coming month gonna be like 'buffs for sec' or something, because I'm excited... anyway. So, about the worst coming to worst on people opposing this... Â If they get abused in the worst-case scenarios with an intent to get them nerfed, then smak da utah shite outta da wankahs. Â Worst case scenario, ballisticurity sucks and no one will ever want to do it again. Buuuut that's a hypothesis there, there's a lot of things that can come from this. True, we should not dismiss any of these arguments, but we shouldn't say it's truth without data, either. That's bad science. I say, load the mag in and we can get shooting. On very uh, specific occasions, anyway.
Blue Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Well, I don't know if this point has been brought up yet (lots of posts), but I'm gonna bring it up anyways. An office tasing you 5 times and getting away with it is a problem. Yes, there's no evidence of it after you're back up. But. There's no damage after that, either. With ballistics, if an officer shoots you 5 times, there's evidence that they're abusive, but there's physical damage on the player. Honestly, I'd rather be stunned and passed out for 20 seconds than dragged into medbay. Plus, what about antags? Wizards? Pew pew pew, you're wounded beyond natural healing, gg no re. Well, maybe it would be a good counter for the EI NATH gankers, but who knows. Just concerns of mine.
Nik Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 You should probably think about how often antags wait for anyone who can grab a actual weapon to leave, or just straight up not have one, and then just robust security because the wizard can always just jaunt away and wait for the stun to wear off. Giving antags easy kill gear and Security pea shooters has shown to work out poorly for Sec. Usually the antag needs to either suck, or we have a particularly clever sec officer, to kill the antag. Eventually we reach that point where it's just up to ERT to avenge poor security and wait to be cloned.
Frances Posted April 2, 2015 Posted April 2, 2015 I'm confused about the specifics of mid vs long range, wouldn't it be possible to number tweak these so they have the same combat effectiveness as tasers, only with the lasting appeal of mild lasting damage, and "guns are serious"? (Granted, tasers should be serious too, but nobody seems to believe that.)
Guest Menown Posted April 2, 2015 Posted April 2, 2015 Plus, what about antags? Wizards? Pew pew pew, you're wounded beyond natural healing, gg no re. Well, maybe it would be a good counter for the EI NATH gankers, but who knows. Â And as has been seen, the wizard teleports into medical storage and raids their supplies, ever tim.
Prospekt Posted April 2, 2015 Posted April 2, 2015 You are arguing that tasers would do nothing, you know irl that if you are tased excessively it will leave a pretty nasty wound. Atleast the ones with the cables. Along with burns from electricity. It's in byond but arguing that tasers are way better for someone to abuse than a gun is a pretty false statement. If you were shot repetitively with a taser it'd do some damage not as much as a balistic firearm but it'd still do the job at really hurting you. It's not the weapon we are implementing its the everyday problem of SS13 where you have griefers come in, it's going to happen and you just have to let admins deal with it. It's the same as if the detective randomly shot someone dead. I really don't know what the problem is here with giving it a trial run...
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