Remove Industrial Frames from Security

[Carver]

9 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Entirely unable on any armor seems excessive to me, I'd be fine with making them unable to wear the specialized ones, leaving them more susceptible to laser fire, which as you say constitutes a fairly significant amount of damage difference, that seems a good compromise?

I'm afraid I wouldn't take any compromise but no armour whatsoever. Despite what you insist, internal injuries and pain are exceptionally relevant - and a Vaurca can die of injuries post-battle. An IPC will never bleed to death, suffocate or pass from organ failure.

Industrials are effectively the Bulwarks of IPCs, and Bulwarks are wholly unable to wear armour.

As for an antag status check, that would be awful snowflake code that adds a mechanical variance between mundane (non-magical/alien) antagonists and crew, something that doesn't particularly exist at the moment outside of combat manuals. I can't support such a check, I'd rather prefer seeing armour designed for them in the uplink.

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, Carver said:

I'm afraid I wouldn't take any compromise but no armour whatsoever.

This would be a compromise I would not take, the natural 20% reduction alone would not compensate for the lack of 55% reduction that a human gets from the specialized armor.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

Despite what you insist, internal injuries and pain are exceptionally relevant - and a Vaurca can die of injuries post-battle.

Post-battle would be when it's not relevant anymore for the reasons brought forward on why it was proposed for them to be removed, which was their supposed favorable inbalance during the gunfight.

1 hour ago, Carver said:

As for an antag status check, that would be awful snowflake code that adds a mechanical variance between mundane (non-magical/alien) antagonists and crew [...] I can't support such a check, I'd rather prefer seeing armour designed for them in the uplink.

The firmer is no more snowflake than the latter, an item with snowflake statistics is yet another item to balance, sprite and whatnot vs two lines of code of the firmer solution, making it even more snowflake by comparison.

[Carver]

23 hours ago, Fluffy said:

This would be a compromise I would not take, the natural 20% reduction alone would not compensate for the lack of 55% reduction that a human gets from the specialized armor.

Post-battle would be when it's not relevant anymore for the reasons brought forward on why it was proposed for them to be removed, which was their supposed favorable inbalance during the gunfight.

I'll gently remind that the balance of this medical system is lasting wounds and attrition. Blood oxygenation, brain damage, organ failure. Something Security is already strong against due to medical existing, and something that these listed models ignore entirely. You don't need armour if you're on an ancient version of pointmed where your failstate is death and you're backed by an entire ship.

23 hours ago, Fluffy said:

The firmer is no more snowflake than the latter, an item with snowflake statistics is yet another item to balance, sprite and whatnot vs two lines of code of the firmer solution, making it even more snowflake by comparison.

Sure, just like toeless boots - aliens being unable to wear most human voidsuits - etc. Very snowflake to imitate an existing and functional system that separates equipment available to the various species.

[Fluffy]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

I'll gently remind that the balance of this medical system is lasting wounds and attrition. Blood oxygenation, brain damage, organ failure.

None of which is the point of the discussion, all of which applies to every other IPC and Diona.

2 hours ago, Carver said:

Something Security is already strong against due to medical existing, and something that these listed models ignore entirely. You don't need armour if you're on an ancient version of pointmed where your failstate is death and you're backed by an entire ship.

You do, as you have no way to heal unless there's a machinist or nanopaste is made, and you also do to not die during the fight before either collapsing on the floor (Human, Unathi, Tajara, Varuca) or outright die (IPC and Diona).

Giving something to the antag to get healed, like an automated Medbay, will do way more in favor of both balance and fun than any removal or nerfing of security ever could.

2 hours ago, Carver said:

Sure, just like toeless boots - aliens being unable to wear most human voidsuits - etc. Very snowflake to imitate an existing and functional system that separates equipment available to the various species.

It's just how things are done to have mechanical differences.

[meep109]

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

You do, as you have no way to heal unless there's a machinist or nanopaste is made, and you also do to not die during the fight before either collapsing on the floor (Human, Unathi, Tajara, Varuca) or outright die (IPC and Diona).

IPC healing is much, much more easier then the brainmed system we have right now. You can't really say that robots have a harder time healing when they really don't

[Fluffy]

19 minutes ago, meep109 said:

IPC healing is much, much more easier then the brainmed system we have right now. You can't really say that robots have a harder time healing when they really don't

Assuming you have one machinist, or science to make nanopaste, which are anything but granted, otherwise you can just hope operations order it, wait 10 minutes to get nanopaste, and then use it.

My proposal, also indicated in another suggestion, was to remove nanopaste from this use, so that it's machinist only, which makes it even more hard to be repaired. and adds more to do to the machinist, which is currently kind of an already underused role.

[LordPwner]

I understand that some people have G1/G2 officers. These are some issues that NEED to be tackled (Some of which have been ignored for some reason or another).

• Not on Brain med system
  • Spoiler

    • Unlike other mobs IPC's do not lose limbs at the same rate. I.E, a human gets general shocks from the door, they can lose function of their hand in one touch- sometimes not, but shocking doors normally lead to at least one security or antag man loosing a hand- and thus accuracy or the use of some weapons in whole. Where as it seems  INDUSTRIAL IPC's do not have this issue. Ballistics tear into the arm, they run into lasers, traps, shocked doors, everything short of shells (like for the flak gun) or welder tank bombs (but sometimes they do anyway.)
       
    • They (Being IPC'st) unlike EVERY OTHER (Minus Dionae, will cover that below) species can be revived as long as you don't destroy the posti- which during a fight, if you somehow get to the point where you could, you would not focus on because it makes zero sense to shoot a companion cube while Sheriff John 'Mandalorian' Sol is duel wielding two machines, running behind covering and screaming cuss words as he runs out of ammo for the eighth time
       
      • The best answer for both of these would be to add a 'blood' system to them but make it sulfuric acid or recode a blood type to 'oil'. Instead of getting brain failure, increase power usage/heat gain as it drains (Perhaps even a movement speed debuff) and allow the machinist to make a higher quality™ acid/oil that can be given to them for temp buffs with OD drawbacks a.k.a meds for IPC's that aren't for repair but to improve them temp. Like getting the expensive gas at the gas station.
         
      • Or which may be easier to give them pistons and other 'organs' pieces that need to keep limbs working, so if you do enough damage fast enough, it's at least easier to disable a limb with out having to fully destroy it or putting on the edge of full destruction. (Most often when I see an IPC with the ability to not use their hands or dropping, the damage is in the fifties or higher) 
• Lore does not match this role (as Officer and such)
   
  • Spoiler

    • Tougher and more durable than most IPCs, these units are designed for heavy manual work and thus have thick metal skin and efficient internal systems. As a result, they chug through power at a very high rate and move very slowly. There are three types of Industrial IPCs; Hephaestus Generation 1, Generation 2, and Xion Industrial Frames. The G1 and G2 frames are capable of EVA with only a suit cooler, while the Xion frame is unique in being capable of traversing the void of space without any external equipment. The cost of an industrial frame is dependent on strength and durability, but most units vary between 200,000 to 350,000 standard credits depending on the frame type. Used or previously damaged models are often somewhat cheaper.
       
      • This tells us anytime they need to be revived, it's 275k out of pocket for themselves or the company. They. Should. Never. Ever. Ever. Charge. Into. Fights. Yet, they do. They are more expensive then ten other officers over WEEKS of work. An Officer is paid 5850 credits a month after taxes https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Guide_to_Wages_and_Pay  So approx. 1462.5 a week. So at an average on 275k per new body, you're looking at 188 weeks, 47 months, or 3.9 years of paychecks if you pay for NOTHING else. (This is without the IPC -2 btw or wants and needs, This is the BEST possible case money wise. For fun, lets do it anyway to put it in 'realistic cost)
         
        So 13 monthly points to start drops to 11 because beep boop. Then we'll call it high activity (Chasing bad guys, running, drills, at best is Med, but we're looking at WORST case) so from 11, we drop to 6, we have to go with dorm, otherwise they break even and therefore could never afford a new body. This brings monthly net to 2700 or 675 a week, barely above a single 'point' a week. 407~ weeks, 102 Months, 8.5 Y E A R S. Why would any SANE industrial ever put themselves into a line of work that gives them student loan for body replacement, of course limbs/parts making up this cost. Or even better- why would a COMPANY, that has had 'canon events' like the cult arc, like the Lii'dra invasion, like most recently w/ the ALA put such an expensive piece of equipment on the front line. It is immersion breaking and makes zero sense. 
• They do not fill the team based play (for antag or sec)/Dionae
   
  • Spoiler

    • This one should explain itself. They can not chase, they can not provide aid quickly. This is why we made it where Dionae could ONLY be wardens. Why they can't be FR's. It doesn't make sense for them to be. They were too slow and too OP for combat. Now we have a race that is MORE OP than them. Also their lore pointed them to be pacifist. It could be 1000% argued the Lore and logic of our world points the G1/G2, Industrials to also be pacifist (See above body cost and wage for average). 
       
    • In terms of Dionae reviving, they can save a nymph, and regrow, but that is NOT the same Dionae now. They are different because they are five-eight/nine (don't know off the top of my head) nymphs to make up a gestalt 

     

I'm not sure what else to cover, I think thats it.

tl;dr

Just as OP as Dionae, Dionae are job banned from Officer/Cadet/even Investigator (unsure), or Head of Security roles and can only Warden. So why would a race with similar properties, but even more OP not have these restrictions? How is this a nerf/unfair? And lastly how does giving them believable and interesting mechanics w/ organs/hard points make them any else 'special' or 'samey' by expanding their core features?

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by LordPwner
removing extra dots

[Fluffy]

18 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Unlike other mobs IPC's do not lose limbs at the same rate. I.E, a human gets general shocks from the door, they can lose function of their hand in one touch- sometimes not, but shocking doors normally lead to at least one security or antag man loosing a hand- and thus accuracy or the use of some weapons in whole. Where as it seems  INDUSTRIAL IPC's do not have this issue.

You can get randomly shocked by charging from an APC, and it indeed damages you.

19 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

They (Being IPC'st) unlike EVERY OTHER (Minus Dionae, will cover that below) species can be revived as long as you don't destroy the posti- which during a fight, if you somehow get to the point where you could, you would not focus on because it makes zero sense to shoot a companion cube while Sheriff John 'Mandalorian' Sol is duel wielding two machines, running behind covering and screaming cuss words as he runs out of ammo for the eighth time

That they can be revived after the shooting is completed seems like a non-issue, and I'm fine with removing it entirely if wanted, at the time any revival would happen the fighting is well over.

Quote

This brings monthly net to 2700 or 675 a week, barely above a single 'point' a week. 407~ weeks, 102 Months, 8.5 Y E A R S. Why would any SANE industrial ever put themselves into a line of work that gives them student loan for body replacement, of course limbs/parts making up this cost. Or even better- why would a COMPANY, that has had 'canon events' like the cult arc, like the Lii'dra invasion, like most recently w/ the ALA put such an expensive piece of equipment on the front line. It is immersion breaking and makes zero sense. 

This is a weird way to put it, but if you really can't figure out: Paying a family for the loss of one employee, considering the missing income, goes into decades-worth of pay, far more than any IPC ever could. Not to mention the legal fees, years of investigations into the matter, bad publicity and everything else that would come out of it. Losing a robot is the best case scenario for a company, you just buy another one, losing an employee is a far, far bigger issue, and why companies pay, right today, literally millions to have robots do the most hazardous works, and why the army pay for the development, commission and use of drones and robots to try to reduce and substitute human soldiers.

32 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

This one should explain itself. They can not chase, they can not provide aid quickly.

This is part of why they are balanced out, which is what was pointed out 3 pages ago.

33 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

This is why we made it where Dionae could ONLY be wardens. [...] They were too slow and too OP for combat. Now we have a race that is MORE OP than them. Also their lore pointed them to be pacifist. It could be 1000% argued the Lore and logic of our world points the G1/G2, Industrials to also be pacifist (See above body cost and wage for average). 

39 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Just as OP as Dionae, Dionae are job banned from Officer/Cadet/even Investigator (unsure), or Head of Security roles and can only Warden. So why would a race with similar properties, but even more OP not have these restrictions? How is this a nerf/unfair? 

This is false, and was also said pages ago, one type of Diona (the more resistant and, in lore, old type) can be Officer, explicitly.

See https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/18128-remove-industrial-frames-from-security/?do=findComment&comment=163834 and https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/18128-remove-industrial-frames-from-security/?do=findComment&comment=163842 

I would also like to point out the irony of both pointing out that "They can not chase, they can not provide aid quickly." and at the same time mantaining that they are too OP in the same paragraph. You literally proved yourself wrong in one way or the other, as they both cannot be effectively true at the same time.

 

[LordPwner]

 

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

This is a weird way to put it, but if you really can't figure out:

I'll start with this. There is no need for any rudeness at all. To even imply that I am not intelligent enough for the conversion in an attempt to dismiss me is honestly unacceptable in my opinion. No one has attacked you, least of all me. If this is how you act over conversation and discussion of a suggested thing? God forbid I EVER have to talk to you about anything.  

The following in that post implies the family/the company pays death insurance, which I am unsure they do. In anycase, the same applies through fear RP/Self-preservation. As for the whole 'we do robots because it's cheaper' sure, sure. In somecases, it can be. 100% But we're talking technology so advanced that it makes Drones and assembly lines look like rocks and sticks. They are self-thinking customizable, machines with thoughts and reason with postitronic brains that professional robotist today would struggle to understand. With a massive upcharge. But also this isn't a Military ship (As much as you have actively tried to make it one.) While the SCC is pretty well set in the science field, they are most likely not on the forefront. As the Skrell Federation is most likely our leading force, followed by the Vaurca with their disgusting brain bugs.

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

You can get randomly shocked by charging from an APC, and it indeed damages you.

I was talking about doors, but o k.

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

This is part of why they are balanced out, which is what was pointed out 3 pages ago.

Being slow is not a good balance for being extra tanky in a game like this. It works for LoL because there are items that are designed to fight the tanks (And still offer a benefit to fighting nontanks too- Normally up'ing attack and providing lethality or damage if they have more max health then you. etc. etc. etc.) It doesn't work here due to the game itself. I am sorry you made a G1 officer or whatever, I can still look and say it's over powered based on what it can accomplish on it's own.

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

This is false, and was also said pages ago, one type of Diona (the more resistant and, in lore, old type) can be Officer, explicitly.

As for this. This USED to be the case. I had thought it was still the case, and for that I'll apologize in this correction. It use to be that Dionae were banned from security roles besides Warden due to the 'Funny Officer' of walking up to antags shooting them and cuffing them. Back in ye ole days, because they felt no pain, had massive health pools and were slow. 

Limits were put because of the power they held to dramatically change the round. At least from MY UNDERSTANDING and memory from like 2017/2018 when Neinbox was loredev, and they put their threads out to do such back then. As for finding it- It's hard when a single post takes up a whole page's worth on it's on due to lack of spoiling and massive paragraphs. 

 

In any case, don't feel the end to respond to me. I'm done with this now, I play SS13 and interact w/ people to have a good time. Not get called an idiot through a poorly veiled insult on a forum through the internet because I disagree.

Edited April 9, 2023 by LordPwner
correcting use to used

[Fluffy]

6 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

I'll start with this. There is no need for any rudeness at all. To even imply that I am not intelligent enough for the conversion in an attempt to dismiss me is honestly unacceptable in my opinion. No one has attacked you, least of all me. If this is how you act over conversation and discussion of a suggested thing? God forbid I EVER have to talk to you about anything.  

You misunderstood what I meant, though I accept fault to not have been clear enough, the point was on the like of how insurance payouts and companies, especially larger ones, evaluate what to do and what risks to take, that has nothing to do with intelligence, it's an analysis which rests on the knowledge of two very specific topics, which are not everyday conversation topics and I'd reckon noone who either works/have worked or had the interest of looking into the matter would have. I specifically prefaced it with "This is a weird way to put it" to make it clear that was not intended to be taken that way, you did it anyways but I did not intend to be rude or imply anything but the lack of insight in those two specific fields, which is as much as a justifiable assumption than assuming the average person does not have funeral services knowledge, as they are niche fields that usually (and rightly so) do not pop up in chitchat conversations or generally pickle interest in most people. That is all.

16 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

The following in that post implies the family/the company pays death insurance, which I am unsure they do.

They pay the medical insurance on the job, I think it's a safe assumption that it also covers death as well as injuries?

17 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

But we're talking technology so advanced that it makes Drones and assembly lines look like rocks and sticks. They are self-thinking customizable, machines with thoughts and reason with postitronic brains that professional robotist today would struggle to understand. With a massive upcharge.

Yes, and they are also 450-ish years into the future, with space squids that figured faster than light travel and an additional dimension, we have people that literally have multiple of them as servers in their holiday/summer house. We're not talking about a super-crazy-uberexpensive luxury that only the top 1% of the world could maybe afford. They are basically as common as upper-level cars are today.

21 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

But also this isn't a Military ship (As much as you have actively tried to make it one.)

Pardon?

22 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

While the SCC is pretty well set in the science field, they are most likely not on the forefront. As the Skrell Federation is most likely our leading force, followed by the Vaurca with their disgusting brain bugs.

Ok? What would it matter with this? They are literally used into mines, which is notoriously and sadly known to be one of the most hazardous workplaces one could be between explosions, roof failing and whatnot, which means they are more than likely more prone to both damages and destruction than our current car assembly line robots.

24 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

I was talking about doors, but o k.

If an APC can shock them, a door should also be able to.

This is what happened when I touched the live wire with the wirecutter:

 

33 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Being slow is not a good balance for being extra tanky in a game like this. It works for LoL because there are items that are designed to fight the tanks (And still offer a benefit to fighting nontanks too- Normally up'ing attack and providing lethality or damage if they have more max health then you. etc. etc. etc.) It doesn't work here due to the game itself. I am sorry you made a G1 officer or whatever, I can still look and say it's over powered based on what it can accomplish on it's own.

Sure, you can say it's overpowered, and you can also say that it's not a good balance in a game like this, but that would just be you stating your opinion/preference, which besides from saying "I disagree" I am not sure in which way would further the conversation (?).

36 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

Back in ye ole days, because they felt no pain, had massive health pools and were slow. 

To copy your phrasing 'Can you figure it out yet?' Limits were put because of the power they held to dramatically change the round. At least from MY UNDERSTANDING and memory from like 2017/2018 when Neinbox was loredev, and they put their threads out to do such back then.

According to the wiki, they were added back in 2019: https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae&oldid=13269

To my knowledge and to this day, they likewise feel little to no pain, and can stand in any light area to health regen.

They also have 20% more life than a G2:

Ontop of being essentially immortal, just needing light to heal, vacuum resistant and so on and so forth.

44 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

As for finding it- It's hard when a single post takes up a whole page's worth on it's on due to lack of spoiling and massive paragraphs. 

It's in the rules of this subsection to read all the discussion, top to bottom:

https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/9588-policy-rules-and-guidelines/ "Read the whole topic before you post in it. (Yes, that means all of it)"

47 minutes ago, LordPwner said:

In any case, don't feel the end to respond to me. I'm done with this now, I play SS13 and interact w/ people to have a good time. Not get called an idiot through poorly veiled insults on a forum through the internet because I disagree.

I reiterate that it was not what I meant, as above; I'm sorry if you took it that way but it was not what I was saying.

[Lmwevil]

Former Dionae lore writer here:

 

Geras Dionae are nowhere even close to the power they used to be, I PROMISE you we talked devs to oblivion to get it right.

Yes they WERE pain immune but they aren't anymore, as well as moee stringent lore oversight on behaviour but fun fact they are not as slow as they were years ago.

 

Geras Dionae, the thick old bark boys are resistant but can be paincrit with a laser and take  substantial time to heal. Plus any ashed limbs removes them from the round pretty much due to the collective brain damage. They can walk in space but cannot wear any form of mag boots nor suit. Furthermore if I recall correctly Dionae have double the pain cap of build up, crippling them for ages. they also cannot sprint

 

Zoomer, young Dionae are weak to most damage and take DOUBLE pain compared to a human, they will paincrit because of a stiff breeze and remain in agony for 5 to ten minutes even in a light. They are also pure pacifists not within sec beyond maybe investigating. however zoomers move a bit faster than a human with no sprint

 

If Dionae are made to split and reform the trauma knocks them out lf the round unlike an ipc who just has a new body

 

stop bringing up my beloved trees, they are not relevant to the discussion

 

edit:

posted from mobile forgive any grammar or spelling

 

edit 2:

Shrapnel from bullets in a Diona require surgery to remove typically, because of the pain buildup they are out of the fight if they get embeds. EMPs also kill them indirectly by burning out the lights (they cannot feed from portable lights bar one that uses a battery and thus dies), they can never have flash protection among a laundry list of other things. TRUST ME they are fine as they are and are nothing akin to ipcs

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Lmwevil

[Fluffy]

40 minutes ago, Lmwevil said:

[snip]

Based on my tests, this does not seem like to be the case

~16 shots for the Diona+nymphs, 7 for the DIona alone (no nymphs), 4 shots for the G2 IPC, all of them without armor.

Would you mind to explain why the test with the live code, updated to this very moment, shows such an insurmountable difference in resistance, against the damage type you indicate as the one they're weak against no less? Am I missing something?

[Lmwevil]

You are absolutely missing something, however this thread is directly for industrial ipcs, if you want to discuss Diona balance hit me on discord or make a different thread. This is wildly off topic. 

[Fluffy]

34 minutes ago, Lmwevil said:

You are absolutely missing something, however this thread is directly for industrial ipcs, if you want to discuss Diona balance hit me on discord or make a different thread. This is wildly off topic. 

I believe, given that the proposal rests on their supposed imbalance, that the comparison against other species that can play in the same role is perfectly part of the topic, as implied by the term itself; that also include Dionas.

[Yonnimer]

I'm not entirely sure how to quote the video for this, but there are some flaws with this I noticed in testing. I tested Humans, Dionae, and G2s with the pulse rifle on DESTROY mode as well as the merc assault rifle (automatic/rifle/sts35) on single shot. The results (note, no clothes at all):

Burn (Pulse rifle)

• Dionae: 5-6, dead/split
• G2s: 4-5 dead (usually 4)
• Humans: 4-5(usually 4), to paincrit, but getting up after. Usually takes six, sometimes 5, to ensure they don't come back up

Ballistic (Merc rifle, single shots)

• Dionae: 7-8, split/dead
• G2s 11-14, dead (About 50-50 split)
• Humans: 7-9 paincrit, 10 always was them gone

Note that none of this is taking into account shrapnel or rng hitting in different places, from just shooting and seeing what happens, I am not counting shots that straight-up missed though.

After this, I tested with the merc armor only (helmet/chest)

Ballistic (Merc rifle, single shots)

• Dionae: 13-14 shots
• G2: 20-23(more towards 20)
• Human: 17 to pain, 20 to not getting up

Burn (Pulse rifle)

• Exact same results as without armor

Because of this, I figured that pulse rifle goes through armor, so I went and tested laser fire (used the pulse rifle on lasershot).

Without armor

• Dionae: 9-10
• G2 7-8
• Humans 7-9 paincrit, (11-12 to down for good)

With Armor

• Dionae: 50-55
• G2: 31-32
• Human: 45 to paincrit, 55 to death (Note, i left one in paintcrit, it took nearly 8 minutes for them to stop getting up, so they were easily able to be recovered/healed up

So with this data,

• G2s are universally taking more damage than Humans and Dionae when it comes to ballistics, with armor especially it seems to give them a nice boost.
• Dionae are more resilient to laser fire than G2, but are forced to split sooner than a human is done for the count. The only major excpeion to this was with merc armor where they did take noticeably more burn damage. Part of this is likely that, due to the amount of time it took for me to shoot off each laser fire individually and grab another gun, dionae likely had time to heal off a little bit of damage to give them a small 2-4 shot buffer as all in all getting enough shots to kill them took minutes, realistically this would never be enough for a Dionae to survive since more than likely they're being shot by multiple people at once, so the self-healing is never quick enough. Notably humans are taking nearly the same amount to go into pain crit where realistically they can be saved, about the same to get to the point where it's less likely/they can't get up at all.
• Conclusion with this: Dionae are more resilent than G2s to burns, but just about to the same amount humans are, and humans can recover, a Dionae who is split is likely to lose all but one or two nymphs (something that happens almost every time a dionae splits in combat on the server, each nymph has 10 health when they're split, a single bullet from any gun will kill them, if a nymph runs into a vent the rest will not follow in, only the leader nymph), and be unable to reform for quite some time, plus lorew-sie they shouldnt' be getting back into the fight, they're severally fucked up at this point and are essentially brain-damaged and have major memory loss, even if they split but keep their nymphs all alive they should be confused and not immediately trying to join back into the fight, forcefully splitting is traumatizing as hell, and a whitelist issue, something we have punished people for doing before. An IPC meanwhile can always get a new body without any long-term issues so long as there's a machinist, something that can take 10-20 minutes if people are dedicated to restore them. Overall, A dionae is tankier with lasers, less than a g2 with ballistics, and with the other factors mentioned above, worse off than a human no matter what.

 

[Boggle08]

On 16/03/2023 at 03:51, Fluffy said:

Running from one side to the other of a deck with a G2 would more or less set you on fire, actually damaging you, it is not a sustainable mode to use to move around, not even considering that it would halve your battery too to do it, and you're still slower than the walk speed of any other species that I know of (yes, I did race a Diona walking, I was slower or at best on par, and I was running).

You were racing a Coeus. Dionae these days moved at a fixed movement speed, though sometimes less depending on the pain they intake. As for the battery thing, you can mitigate drain by staggering out your sprints and fingerbanging the APC's as you run past them. This was a tactic way back when, but it's way more sustainable now that your battery doesn't zero after running half the length of the holodeck going vertically. On the matter of heat, the threshold where you start to get temperature warnings/take damage is somewhere around 850 Kelvin. G2's do not overheat like shells. You can easily have human-tier endurance so long as you pace yourself and throttle your movement when you need to. I know this, because I have done this.

 

As for the broader G2/Dionae comparison, honestly, their problems are different from what I think I see with G2's. The problem for G2's is that the game gives very little feedback/mechanical incentives for you to break off and fearRP with your wounds. Every species in the game can take a high threshold of punishment, it's just that they're going to be standing dead if they push it to the absolute limit. If their body will even allow them to. Dionae actually use a lite version of brainmed, and the fact they can't run away from situations they start, or that they slough off parts of themselves when they take too much damage is well enough to encourage people not to play foolhardy.

I don't think adjusting statsticks around is a long term solution, if anything G2's can stay just as durable. They just need more debuffs when they take damage, an equivalent for the need to be stabilized, and more feedback via logs when they're horribly damaged.

[Sniblet]

For such allegedly sophisticated machines, IPCs' internals seem pretty hollow. The only device inside their torso worth noting is a microbattery. That's the only thing you can possibly break by shooting center mass, apart from some loadout augs. I think they'd be improved beyond just balance if they had more stuff to break. Consider:

• internal structure: IPC equivalent to bones. It doesn't hurt to walk on a broken foot structure, but it slows you down. If your leg structure is shattered, you're going to go even slower and probably trip a lot - it's not easy to get shattered pieces of steel femur to connect and push off each other properly. Similar disruption for hands and arms. A broken head or chest structure makes the components inside a lot more vulnerable, and a shattered head structure will frequently skewer your optical sensors.
  • The internal structure of a Xion frame is weaker than others, as part of the design compromises to make them EVA-capable.
  • Bishop Accessory Frames aren't built for physical stress. Their structure is weaker.
• cooling matrix: Lower body. Keeps temperature down. If the cooling matrix is fully destroyed (damage doesn't influence its effect), the temperature buildup is the same as being in vacuum. Losing this is very lethal, so IPC frames sound alarms when it takes damage. Maybe they're audible outside of the frame, maybe they're only received by the user.
  • Most industrial cooling matrices obviously do the job better, but they're intentionally less durable so that users have to buy replacements more often.
  • Xion cooling matrices obviously work in space. Their durability is average, because it's harder to justify planned obsolescence for a frame that's often EVA.
  • Shell variants are less effective with no upside.
• charge intake: Upper body. With damage and destruction, charging effectiveness respectively decreases and flatlines, accompanied by increased chances of being shocked by APCs. Losing this is a bad thing for your long-term prospects, but not immediately disruptive. G2s hate it!
• kinesthetic center: Upper body. If it breaks, it's like all of your limb structures have been badly damaged - you become a lot less coordinated and your balance is much less reliable. If a limb is broken together with the kinesthetic center, that limb's function is entirely lost. You can see if this is broken from looking: it prints "They look dizzy and uncoordinated." in examine text.
  • Bishop Accessory Frames have two cooperating kinesthetic centers, to enable them to dance and flourish better! Mechanically, they're a single, much tougher organ.
  • Industrial kinesthetic centers are built Hephaestus tough, as a safety measure, because you really don't want one stumbling and falling on you. They're weaker than Bishops though.
• gustatorial coprocessors: Head, fluff organ. Only exists alongside gustatorial sensors. Very fragile. If these are damaged at all, your taste preferences may get really weird. You might start liking raw meat and k'ois. Or you might forget to RP it.
• vocabulator: Head. This is what must be damaged to give IPCs a stutter and the crackles speech tag. If it breaks, they also lose the ability to speak anything other than the brain's native languages: Basic and EAL. Name stolen from Star Wars.
  • Bishop Accessory Frames have particularly well-built vocabulators. Their speech doesn't degrade until it is fully broken.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Sniblet
stumbling and

[Carver]

On 16/04/2023 at 12:03, Sniblet said:

vocabulator: Head. This is what must be damaged to give IPCs a stutter and the crackles speech tag. If it breaks, they also lose the ability to speak anything other than the brain's native languages: Basic and EAL. Name stolen from Star Wars.

• Bishop Accessory Frames have particularly well-built vocabulators. Their speech doesn't degrade until it is fully broken.

I like the rest of these (barring the gustatorial one because I worry it might 'soak damage' for no actual effect, if you've been shot to shit you're not gonna walk off to the bar to go and taste drinks), but mild input on this: Not every IPC takes EAL, and not every IPC was built within Tau Ceti. TC Basic is absurdly unlikely to be the 'built-in' language of a Solarian model or an Assunzionii model, for example.

For that, I like the idea of the stutter/crackle but not removal of any languages. If it needs a full-broken effect I'd suggest muteness because that's significantly impactful (and because if I start seeing every sec IPC taking sign language it'll be really fucking funny to me).

[Yaku]

I think the IPC's can stay in security. There is a simple way to almost one shot an IPC even with armor (No EMP). Yeah, they are above average tough but i think that's the interesting part and a challenge to overcome.

[Arrow768]

5 hours ago, Yaku said:

There is a simple way to almost one shot an IPC even with armor (No EMP).

Can you explain how that's actually done?

[Gem]

1 hour ago, Arrow768 said:

Can you explain how that's actually done?

PEAC.

[Yaku]

12 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Can you explain how that's actually done?

I planned to take this secret to my grave but ok 🥹

Get a spray bottle and fill it with Sulfuric acid, Hydrochloric acid and Polytrinic acid. Spraying anything causes about 80 instant burn damage and bypasses armor and melts helmets. The only way to protect against it is to get a hardsuit.

[meep109]

7 hours ago, Yaku said:

Get a spray bottle and fill it with Sulfuric acid, Hydrochloric acid and Polytrinic acid. Spraying anything causes about 80 instant burn damage and bypasses armor and melts helmets. The only way to protect against it is to get a hardsuit.

This isn't simple. You need access to chemistry and a lot of time, which is really hard to get for any off-ship antag

[Yaku]

3 hours ago, meep109 said:

This isn't simple. You need access to chemistry and a lot of time, which is really hard to get for any off-ship antag

Yeah, it's generally harder for all antags to get access to to Science chemistry, Xenoarcheology or medical chemistry if you don't have the specific role. But the tools are there. Subvert a stationbound, emag when you need it quickly, door hacking, bribing.

But Acid is a good way to severly damage an IPC or litterally everything if you don't have any other options.

 

 

[Arrow768]

This is being discussed by the headmins/devs, lore masters, maintainers and ccia lead.