Remove Code locking Suit Senors

[Star Dust]

Yes I know there is a thing for putting back suit sensors back into non-uniforms but this is specifically addressing the code-locking of suit sensors all together.

At the moment to my knowledge on code green suit sensors are off, on code blue only level 1 of suit sensors is seen which is about as useful as no suit sensors as all, it gives no information, no location, no nothing.

So anytime the crew has anyone hurt and lost, or suddenly was calling for help and goes silent the ENTIRE ship has to go to code red, arm security up, and search for them. How is this a good idea? How is this useful? It only wastes everyones time, and builds needless frustration as medical is running around the ship pointlessly trying to see what is wrong.

And before anyone brings this up, the antags already have a tool to jam suit sensors, they can make it, it's not that hard. So be it Changeling, vampire, tator, of whatever. The antags already had a tool to do this, all this is doing is stomping on medical, security, mining, and science for the sake of "Balance."


For anyone curious, this is how you make a radio jammer

Edited December 7, 2023 by Star Dust

[Carver]

Yeah, I get that the idea was to 'free medical from watching sensors on green' but they weren't compelled to do so whatsoever before. It was on the player if they chose to sit at the desk, and I don't see much issue with them choosing to do so. This change doesn't serve to benefit antags either unless they were simply too damned lazy to make the mentioned jammer, absolutely anyone in the crew can make these things.

[Star Dust]

6 minutes ago, Carver said:

Yeah, I get that the idea was to 'free medical from watching sensors on green' but they weren't compelled to do so whatsoever before. It was on the player if they chose to sit at the desk, and I don't see much issue with them choosing to do so. This change doesn't serve to benefit antags either unless they were simply too damned lazy to make the mentioned jammer, absolutely anyone in the crew can make these things.

Another thing, medical did not have to sit at the computer and keep watching suit sensors, they could simply just view them on their PDA. Multiple times while playing a surgeon or physician I'd just be relaxing in the bar with my PDA out casually looking at suit sensors while doing other rp in the meantime.

[GeneralCamo]

There's generally a rule that revert PRs need to wait a month before being made. And I'm not looking to overturn it for this PR.

Sensors have always been a major topic within the community. The claim that medical is not compelled to watch sensors is contradicted by the general attitude of medical players towards newer medical job seekers, which generally turns them off of doing RP with the ship or playing medical all together. I really want to see how this changes things on the Horizon, just for a month. Then we can come back to this. 

[Butterrobber202]

Just pointing this out, the improvised radio jammer is an incredibly unreliable tool and is really only used when no other options for disabling sensors/radio is doable. I'd probably blow up TComms before trying an improv, depending on the situation. The thing randomly shuts itself off every few seconds with no warning or indicator. 

[Carver]

6 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Just pointing this out, the improvised radio jammer is an incredibly unreliable tool and is really only used when no other options for disabling sensors/radio is doable. I'd probably blow up TComms before trying an improv, depending on the situation. The thing randomly shuts itself off every few seconds with no warning or indicator. 

If it’s truly that bad, then I’d argue buffing it (the intended tool for kidnapping on a budget) would have been significantly less extreme of a change than a sensor code lock. To my knowledge it’s intended to be used in a brief, limited period dependent on the power cell’s capacity (though never intended to exceed the uplink version, even if using a hyper power cell).
 

Better to improve the tools designed for a job than to remove the need for them entirely.

[greenjoe]

6 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Just pointing this out, the improvised radio jammer is an incredibly unreliable tool and is really only used when no other options for disabling sensors/radio is doable. I'd probably blow up TComms before trying an improv, depending on the situation. The thing randomly shuts itself off every few seconds with no warning or indicator. 

I wonder if that is even intentional, it says about having a limited battery life but it randomly shutting off seems like a bug.

[Star Dust]

12 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Just pointing this out, the improvised radio jammer is an incredibly unreliable tool and is really only used when no other options for disabling sensors/radio is doable. I'd probably blow up TComms before trying an improv, depending on the situation. The thing randomly shuts itself off every few seconds with no warning or indicator. 

this honestly does sound like a bug and if not, it could just be buffed.

[Mazerins]

i like suit sensors both as a crewman and someone who plays antags often. If the threat is confirmed, go red, if not, keep it at blue. It keeps things fair and works with escalation in proportion to the activities of the antagonist(s).

On 07/12/2023 at 09:12, Star Dust said:

So anytime the crew has anyone hurt and lost, or suddenly was calling for help and goes silent the ENTIRE ship has to go to code red, arm security up, and search for them. How is this a good idea? How is this useful? It only wastes everyones time, and builds needless frustration as medical is running around the ship pointlessly trying to see what is wrong.

i have searched for the clearly written definitions of alert levels on wiki but i haven't found them, might be blind, but your line of thinking about escalation is simply wrong. If someone goes missing, or screams help before cutting off, then I'd assume Command would go to blue alert. Should the trend continue, they should go red, as the threat is confirmed, blue alert, from what I've been told, isn't about 'lesser threat', or something along the lines, it's about active/confirmed threats.

Again, correct me on that if I'm wrong, but speaking objectivly - rapid escalation is bad (which is written in the rules of conflict) , and should never be done in a manner which you describe, it's an exaggeration. I personally trust in Command members since they are WL'd, venerated folk who would likely try and play in good faith and for the sake of RP, the same way I trust that antags wouldn't end someone's round or keep them paralyzed/crippled without sufficient RP, so those that go missing aren't suffering either.

 

[greenjoe]

3 hours ago, Mazerins said:

off, then I'd assume Command would go to blue alert.

Sadly may not always be command around

In which case no sensors for you, person can't be found 

[CatsinHD]

10 hours ago, Mazerins said:

i have searched for the clearly written definitions of alert levels on wiki but i haven't found them, might be blind,

I'll start off saying that there is no separate page for the alert levels. Currently, the best definition for them is on the Captain page, but we're actively working on making a separate page for the alert levels. You assumptions on alert level progression is generally correct, however as Greenjoe said, this is sometimes not possible with the manifest, although whether a someone going missing constitutes blue alert is dependent on the command team.

As for my opinion on the matter, I've never found suit sensors (or suit sensor location) a major issue when it comes to antag play. Granted, I don't often play antag, and haven't recently. I do know that there are ways to subvert suit sensors. They're, in my mind, a logical tool that medical should have access to given the nature of the environment our characters are in. Space is dangerous. Ships are dangerous. I would much rather expand or buff an antag's tools to subvert suit sensors, like a jammer, than remove them. In my frank opinion, keeping them code locked or removing them outright harms the entire gameplay loop for First Responders (Note, that is my main role so I am biased in that capacity) outside of the very visible mercs, burglars, etc.

TLDR; Give antags tools to subvert, don't remove the useful tool.
TLDR of the TLDR; Put a door in the wall, don't teardown the wall itself.

[Star Dust]

23 hours ago, Mazerins said:

i like suit sensors both as a crewman and someone who plays antags often. If the threat is confirmed, go red, if not, keep it at blue. It keeps things fair and works with escalation in proportion to the activities of the antagonist(s).

i have searched for the clearly written definitions of alert levels on wiki but i haven't found them, might be blind, but your line of thinking about escalation is simply wrong. If someone goes missing, or screams help before cutting off, then I'd assume Command would go to blue alert. Should the trend continue, they should go red, as the threat is confirmed, blue alert, from what I've been told, isn't about 'lesser threat', or something along the lines, it's about active/confirmed threats.

Again, correct me on that if I'm wrong, but speaking objectivly - rapid escalation is bad (which is written in the rules of conflict) , and should never be done in a manner which you describe, it's an exaggeration. I personally trust in Command members since they are WL'd, venerated folk who would likely try and play in good faith and for the sake of RP, the same way I trust that antags wouldn't end someone's round or keep them paralyzed/crippled without sufficient RP, so those that go missing aren't suffering either.

 

You seem to misunderstand. If someone screams for help the ship has to raise to red alert to find them. Because blue alert only lets medical know if they're dead or not, nothing more. Also the ruling hurts players even if its non-antag related. So say if someone got ambushed by drones, called for help, and didn't respond, if that ship wants to find them the crew has to run around helplessly trying to search for them, or raise to red alert and find them that way.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Star Dust

[Mazerins]

Now that you clarified your point, I do see reasoning behind it, but to respond to the other person, as well.

14 hours ago, William Murdoch said:

I would much rather expand or buff an antag's tools to subvert suit sensors, like a jammer, than remove them. In my frank opinion, keeping them code locked or removing them outright harms the entire gameplay loop for First Responders (Note, that is my main role so I am biased in that capacity) outside of the very visible mercs, burglars, etc.

TLDR; Give antags tools to subvert, don't remove the useful tool.
TLDR of the TLDR; Put a door in the wall, don't teardown the wall itself.

 

I honestly concede my point of view, if we buff antag's tools, then it could be great, but the problem I see with it is that balancing antag tools is pretty hard, as it's really high-skill dependant, even if some tools require less experience than others. (i.e getting an assault rifle, heavy armor, combat stims. And going POSTAL). It might require a lot more time, testing, etc, before being properly implemented.

[CatsinHD]

9 hours ago, Mazerins said:

I honestly concede my point of view, if we buff antag's tools, then it could be great, but the problem I see with it is that balancing antag tools is pretty hard, as it's really high-skill dependant, even if some tools require less experience than others. (i.e getting an assault rifle, heavy armor, combat stims. And going POSTAL). It might require a lot more time, testing, etc, before being properly implemented.

Fair enough, and Aurora certainly has the never ending pain train that is balancing antag tools. This is my personal opinion on that: As long as the tools are offered and not blatantly overpowered or useless, it's fine. Not every antag will use it, or know how to use it, and that's fine. That's why I encourage experimenting and testing out new plans as antag. But this is getting off topic, so I'll end it here.

[wowzewow]

Locking and archiving. An entire year and two weeks have passed. This has ceased to be an issue.