Alternative Sentencing Options

[Evandorf]

One of the issues I have playing antag and hear from other antags is a dread of being sat in a cell forever with little interaction or a way to continue to interact with anyone other than security when you're caught with a lengthy/HUT sentence. Personally, if I go through the process of setting up a gimmick I'd like to see the effects it has on the crew and ship. If I always prep an explosive implant I can do that every time but there are antags who don't have that option and sometimes I'd rather stay alive. What can be done then?

Parole and tracker implants already exist but arguably for a HUT sentence they might not be the wisest move. My initial thought was that we might have some way to make the violent criminals safer for something like a work detail, janitorial duty, or something where the antag and wider crew could interact if they wanted. There already exists the ability for chemicals like paxazide to prevent you from attacking others or even leaving help intent. You could put that effect with a tracker on a collar. Obviously simply being pacified won't make you a complete non-threat but it's an alternative to having the back wall of communal blown out, and for antags who want a gimmick where they are unintentionally hostile it might be a decent alternative.

That's just one option that I was thinking of today but I'm sure there are others and I'm all ears for any suggestions you might have.

[Susan]

What you've described is just cyborgification with more steps, really.

If someone is arraigned for murder or serious high crimes I can't imagine any world where it's realistic they are then turned back out into the general crew. Anything beneath that already has fines as an alternative, but if you've committed a ton of offenses brig time continues to mount up. I think, at least on the Aurora map, the visitation room helped alleviate some of these problems by letting people much more freely interact with prisoners. Perhaps some manner of holocall or holopad that is set up between the prison and a outside? A dedication visitation room? The way the map is now makes it exceedingly difficult for such a thing to be added.

But speaking as a security player, in most antag rounds, there is already so much to keep track of, and releasing the murderer with paxazide (which is legally a problem because one of its components, Truth Serum, is illegal to use or possess to my knowledge) to keep track of is already asking a lot of us. You may mechanically not be able to attack anyone but that doesn't stop you from running to the Intrepid and flying off, anyway.

If there was the ability for crew to more easily visit antagonists, it may help resolve some of these problems. The other part of the problem, especially in traitor rounds, is the repetition of antags being added. A handful of lings means people can focus on them. You get arrested and there's 2 more traitors, plus another spawning to replace you? Good luck. It's overstimulating and exhausting for security, and compounds this issue.

[Evandorf]

4 minutes ago, Susan said:

What you've described is just cyborgification with more steps, really.

If someone is arraigned for murder or serious high crimes I can't imagine any world where it's realistic they are then turned back out into the general crew. Anything beneath that already has fines as an alternative, but if you've committed a ton of offenses brig time continues to mount up. I think, at least on the Aurora map, the visitation room helped alleviate some of these problems by letting people much more freely interact with prisoners. Perhaps some manner of holocall or holopad that is set up between the prison and a outside? A dedication visitation room? The way the map is now makes it exceedingly difficult for such a thing to be added.

But speaking as a security player, in most antag rounds, there is already so much to keep track of, and releasing the murderer with paxazide (which is legally a problem because one of its components, Truth Serum, is illegal to use or possess to my knowledge) to keep track of is already asking a lot of us. You may mechanically not be able to attack anyone but that doesn't stop you from running to the Intrepid and flying off, anyway.

If there was the ability for crew to more easily visit antagonists, it may help resolve some of these problems. The other part of the problem, especially in traitor rounds, is the repetition of antags being added. A handful of lings means people can focus on them. You get arrested and there's 2 more traitors, plus another spawning to replace you? Good luck. It's overstimulating and exhausting for security, and compounds this issue.

I'm not saying these would replace our current system but they would be additional options. If we have several traitors, lings, ect and security is overwhelmed then it would not be the time to give ourselves extra work. But if we've got lowpop and a single antag who gets caught early, why not let them mop the floors or something?

I also wasn't implying we use Paxazide but simply the pacified effect brought on by tech in the collar or something. Have a box of them in the Warden's office next to the other options, to be used as desired. It also wouldn't lobotomize the prisoner like cyborgification, they are only mellowed out. They still retain their personality and motivations. If you have friends or sympathizers they may be able to help you remove it with tools. Maybe make it RNG to where they're successful or it damages you if you fail.

[dessysalta]

Non-judicial punishment my beloved.

In all seriousness though, this could be very hit or miss. Spewing anti-corporate nonsense is going to earn you a fine. Doing much more than that mean it's reasonable to either fine you again or put you in the brig. Having makeshift-CCIA actions (demotion to janitor, mindshielding/loyalty implanting (if those ever come back given the recent suggestion for them), etc.) raises the question of whether or not CCIA is even needed for short-term issues and small infractions we see as subjects of incident reports. Applying non-judicial punishment to traitors means that it must realistically also be applied to everyone else in the event it's needed, which opens up the floodgates of whether or not littering or sending someone a death threat is enough for the HOS/a secoff/etc. to work with the XO and make you do janitorial work or some other thing, which in turn makes CCIA seem much less needed.

As for a visitor system or pax-adjacent thing, I love the idea of it, sign me the hell up.

Regarding security limits, I agree with Susan. I'm a security main, I play HOS an absolute ton. If you told me I had to keep track of three or four or five separate miscreants while dealing with lings/etc and not get overwhelmed, whether or not they were brigged or borged or pacified or whatever, I would probably hold up for that round and then stop playing for a good three days. For people who are new to security, this might deter them entirely. Security should never have it easy, but we should do our best to make sure their job is fair and semi-balanced for those looking to try it, or those who are inexperienced.

[Ramke]

Putting in my short thoughts.

I don't think this will impact CCIA as IRs are only there for unresolved incidents. IRs will not lose relevancy, as the crowning point of them is that they are only filed if they are unresolved by the crew, there are disagreements over the resolution, or the offender went off the work deck before a resolution could be imposed, etc. In addition, they are canon and consequences of IRs may last longer than a single round.

I think seeing tools or encouragement for alternative punishments as a positive since it gives the option to, on top of allowing more flavour during rev rounds/etc. The key point is choice to me, you can just choose not to utilise those options if it's chaotic.

[Evandorf]

3 hours ago, dessysalta said:

Non-judicial punishment my beloved.

In all seriousness though, this could be very hit or miss. Spewing anti-corporate nonsense is going to earn you a fine. Doing much more than that mean it's reasonable to either fine you again or put you in the brig. Having makeshift-CCIA actions (demotion to janitor, mindshielding/loyalty implanting (if those ever come back given the recent suggestion for them), etc.) raises the question of whether or not CCIA is even needed for short-term issues and small infractions we see as subjects of incident reports. Applying non-judicial punishment to traitors means that it must realistically also be applied to everyone else in the event it's needed, which opens up the floodgates of whether or not littering or sending someone a death threat is enough for the HOS/a secoff/etc. to work with the XO and make you do janitorial work or some other thing, which in turn makes CCIA seem much less needed.

As for a visitor system or pax-adjacent thing, I love the idea of it, sign me the hell up.

Regarding security limits, I agree with Susan. I'm a security main, I play HOS an absolute ton. If you told me I had to keep track of three or four or five separate miscreants while dealing with lings/etc and not get overwhelmed, whether or not they were brigged or borged or pacified or whatever, I would probably hold up for that round and then stop playing for a good three days. For people who are new to security, this might deter them entirely. Security should never have it easy, but we should do our best to make sure their job is fair and semi-balanced for those looking to try it, or those who are inexperienced.

Adding onto what Ramke said, IRs are not suitable for antags or consequences stemming from antags. It’s one of the main reasons why poor officer play rarely has consequences because an ahelp will likely get told it’s an IC issue, and as you and Sue have said, in a busy round you don’t have time to do much beyond a verbal reprimand. If you hope to have it addressed it has to be done in-round. The consequences of antag action are also non-canon so any real consequences like false imprisonment charges are also waivable. 

[greenjoe]

13 hours ago, Susan said:

Truth Serum, is illegal to use or possess to my knowledge

I think it says truth serum is very unethical, but didn't say about it being actually illegal?

[Fluffy]

Cruel and unusual punishments are the soul of SS13, so I support this idea in the abstract

I would like to see specific options discussed, so that they are also actionable

[Bear]

15 hours ago, Evandorf said:

You could put that effect with a tracker on a collar. Obviously simply being pacified won't make you a complete non-threat but it's an alternative to having the back wall of communal blown out, and for antags who want a gimmick where they are unintentionally hostile it might be a decent alternative.

This is essentially just a resprited loyalty implant. A shock collar is a bit too on the nose, so I don't see that really fitting our setting as if they're at the point they require such heavy subjugation, its simply more valuable to remove their brain.

I'd be amenable to something like a L.I. were it re-added, however.

[Evandorf]

1 hour ago, Bear said:

This is essentially just a resprited loyalty implant. A shock collar is a bit too on the nose, so I don't see that really fitting our setting as if they're at the point they require such heavy subjugation, its simply more valuable to remove their brain.

I'd be amenable to something like a L.I. were it re-added, however.

Loyalty implants have no mechanical aspects to them if I recall correctly, if having to choose between the two I’d rather have the mechanically enforced compliance than have to ahelp someone not abiding by an LI. 
 

It brings to mind the old vamp command power. 
 

You also have to consider how these could be used by antags who get their hands on them. 

[Bear]

This is true, and while I find having a shock collar button funny, IDK how in line it would be with the setting for the corporations. I'm open to the discussion though as a third more permanent punishment besides HUT or Borging/Marooning for the crimes that are severe but also aren't "You killed someone." or were a terrorist. Regulations are easy to rework. The question is what are the options of this third "restraint" punishment and what is the most logical response based on that. A lot of crimes that aren't violent could easily be reworked into being offered a deal with the devil.

I'd like to get some more input though on this specifically from the lore side @Triogenix and @La Villa Strangiato and the head maintainers/devs @Arrow768 and @MattAtlas as any game additions is the head devs realm before it reaches mine.

[Evandorf]

39 minutes ago, Bear said:

This is true, and while I find having a shock collar button funny, IDK how in line it would be with the setting for the corporations. I'm open to the discussion though as a third more permanent punishment besides HUT or Borging/Marooning for the crimes that are severe but also aren't "You killed someone." or were a terrorist. Regulations are easy to rework. The question is what are the options of this third "restraint" punishment and what is the most logical response based on that. A lot of crimes that aren't violent could easily be reworked into being offered a deal with the devil.

I'd like to get some more input though on this specifically from the lore side @Triogenix and @La Villa Strangiato and the head maintainers/devs @Arrow768 and @MattAtlas as any game additions is the head devs realm before it reaches mine.

I think a shock collar is a bit much, the picture I had in my head was a more passive device; mechanically a tracking implant that applies a pacified state. The actual item or flavor can be whatever is appropriate. It can also be removed so it’s not as permanent as cyborgification.

It enables “parole” for otherwise dangerous prisoners by providing additional assurances. It would still need to be used appropriately with good judgement. 

[NG+7 Gael]

Personally, I really don't like cyborgification. I think it's both unfun as a mechanic and too grimderp as a concept, so having literally anything as an alternative/replacement for that is something I would really like to see. Currently, cyborgification is basically the only real form of high-level punishment that's both legal and sees any use, and a lot of the time even when it's not performed on ship (another thing I think is extremely weird and not fitting at all) and the person is HUT, they're either implied or outright stated to be waiting for cyborgification. Having alternatives to that which also would allow for further RP from/with the antag in question seems purely beneficial to me, especially as that allows for a different form of RP than what you see when someone's waiting to be cyborgified. Maybe that doesn't necessarily take the form of some sort of pacification device specifically as suggested, but I think that it's at the very least a good place to start.

[MattAtlas]

Voting for dismissal on the general idea being put forward. Alternative punishment is fine as an idea, but the problem is that it doesn't really fit our server. NJPs don't work here and things like paxazide collars are setting breaking and not something I really want to see in the game in general.

[Triogenix]

22 hours ago, Bear said:

I'd like to get some more input though on this specifically from the lore side @Triogenix and @La Villa Strangiato and the head maintainers/devs @Arrow768 and @MattAtlas as any game additions is the head devs realm before it reaches mine.

I echo what Matt said. It's an alright idea but doesn't fit the overall setting of our lore, and would feel forced/silly if implemented. I think we already have a good enough system in place with CCIA punishments for minor offenses, which are canon and, therefore interesting. However I will say it is important to keep in mind that the lore of the server in some ways reflects the mechanics of the game, so should Matt and Arrow/the rest of the dev team move forward with something similar to this, things can be tweaked to make it somewhat more reasonable.

[Fluffy]

Maybe lobotomies as an alternative? It fits what we already have, borging lobotomizes someone and places it to be controlled by an electronic system, we could go halfway with just the lobotomy (which would translate mechanically to permanent paxazide) + maybe a combined tracking/chemical implant ready to put you to sleep if the password is spoken on the listening radio channel OR you leave the radio range

This can be explained as following:

• Lobotomy gives a paxazide-equivalent effect that prevents you from hurting people with tools/items, so you are not a threat to the crew
• The tracking implant part allows to know where you are at any given moment, should we want you back
• The chemical implant part allows to put you to sleep if needed
• Automatic chemical release on radio loss ensures that if you try to run away, you'd be put to sleep and can be retrieved
• The SCC has a vested interest in having you working compared to having you relaxing in a cell, so this option is preferable for them
• Both chemical and tracking implants are already present in the brig as options
• Borging is already an option that lobotomizes the brain
• -> Therefore nothing "truly new" is added, it's just a combination of things that are options already in some capacity
• It would still be a more interesting option over "beep boop i am now a robot, no idea what happened until now", as it allows you to remember what you did and talk about it, in some capacity
• Borging still remains an option should you wish to cause further troubles verbally
• -> That also means you don't have to sit in a cell waiting for sec to find all the other antags, you can be released and RP to the general population, as you are not a mechanical threat, they can always swing back to get you later if you continue to cause verbal troubles
• --> Going to help your antag friends without a way to mechanically fight breaks self-preservation rules, so while you can do that mechanically, you'd get bwoinked for that
• People sympatetic to you can try to remove said implant, you will still be unable to fight, but you can now try to escape
• -> So you can RP the sad story and try to gain sympaties of a Surgeon/Machinist or what have you, which is still better than staring at the wall in brig

Just off the top of my head

Thoughts?

[Evandorf]

1 hour ago, Triogenix said:

I echo what Matt said. It's an alright idea but doesn't fit the overall setting of our lore, and would feel forced/silly if implemented. I think we already have a good enough system in place with CCIA punishments for minor offenses, which are canon and, therefore interesting. However I will say it is important to keep in mind that the lore of the server in some ways reflects the mechanics of the game, so should Matt and Arrow/the rest of the dev team move forward with something similar to this, things can be tweaked to make it somewhat more reasonable.

I think something must have gotten lost in the sauce here. The original suggestion was just for a way to deal with antags that wasn’t tossing them in a cell.

IRs and CCIA aren’t applicable to antag involvement. 

[Bear]

Lobotomies and borgings are essentially the same thing though one looks worse on paper then the other to a small extent. It doesn't really fix the issue.

L.I.'s would but I don't see them coming back any time soon. So I am not sure there is a good middle-man option for antags. Unfortunately any punishment that ends up with cyborgification is typically an incredibly hostile act that resulted in someone's death or near death save for mutiny or kidnapping. So The other thing is I don't see any third option changing most regulations beyond things like mutiny and kidnapping.

[Fluffy]

The suggestion is for an alternative to HuT, a lobotomy wouldn't be an alternative to becoming a borg, but something in between HuT and it

I think that remembering who you are, what you did and why, and having some slim chances to at least escape if you play your hand well is meaningfully different from being a memoryless, hard-lawed borg, and it leaves more RP options open for you too

Of course, if you did something hostile enough to warrant it, you can and will end up as a borg, what I was brainstorming was an alternative to HuT, not an alternative to borging

[N8-Toe]

I mean non standard punishment for minor/medium offenses should 100% fully be a thing. Just leaving some room for creativity. Things like being ordered to go clean up the mess, or even for minor things having your punishment being make an apology. More RP involved resolutions than "swipe here to pay the fine in space monopoly money" and if they botch that option given to them or refuse, well just fine/brig

 

I wont lie I am struggling for good alternatives for things such as "Billy killed someone". Because from the characters perspective he's a threat, and generally your not going to give them their tools back. Lobotomy is just grimderp and I really wouldn't want to be as an antag as tbh I'd feel under glass. trackered, chemical implant and unable to directly harm people. I am cornered from not just continuing hostilities, but doing anything but just mindlessly do what im told. I can play a Viax if I want that.

 

idk.. sentenced to join the mining team? its off ship, and worst case if you pick axe someone they just leave you behind. That could be an option

[Bear]

NJP's won't become a thing. Reassignments will only happen through a Captain or CCIA. Punishments must be spelled out for a multitude of reasons.

I won't pursue the lobotomy route either. Being borged gives the now deceased antag the decision to either play the borg or die in which case they can wait out or ahelp for a respawn and simply join as a new character.

I am still open to an alternative punishment idea but do not see a viable one at this time that would be suitable. The idea is solid @Evandorf to find an alternative, and if you come up with another one feel free to run it by me at any time as I would be fine with allowing a third alternative to HuT and Borg/Maroon for the non violent serious crimes.

Until one is discovered, however I am also voting for dismissal. -1

[OolongCow]

An alternative for antags already exists without foisting the burden of ensuring one person has 10% more fun at everyone else's expense. It's called the cryo cell and observing/respawning as a non-antag. We already point at the generous respawn system for crew (usually sec) who complain they were killed too quickly. Why shouldn't we do so for antags too?

It's silly to suggest we should break immersion like this for something that, let's be very frank here, provides little value to good-intentioned players while adding avenues for horrific abuse by both sides. I do not want to be obligated to give Lyle Linetoer a free pass to escape the brig (because of course an easy way to remove the collar/implant/whatever WILL be added or found), nor do I want to put up with 10 hour playtime wardens putting those measures on literally every prisoner through my door until they're being ahelped every round.

I support Sue's suggestion of a visitation area, however.

Edited February 8 by OolongCow

[Evandorf]

2 hours ago, OolongCow said:

An alternative for antags already exists without foisting the burden of ensuring one person has 10% more fun at everyone else's expense. It's called the cryo cell and observing/respawning as a non-antag. We already point at the generous respawn system for crew (usually sec) who complain they were killed too quickly. Why shouldn't we do so for antags too?

It's silly to suggest we should break immersion like this for something that, let's be very frank here, provides little value to good-intentioned players while adding avenues for horrific abuse by both sides. I do not want to be obligated to give Lyle Linetoer a free pass to escape the brig (because of course an easy way to remove the collar/implant/whatever WILL be added or found), nor do I want to put up with 10 hour playtime wardens putting those measures on literally every prisoner through my door until they're being ahelped every round.

I support Sue's suggestion of a visitation area, however.

I sincerely feel hurt by this response and also feel like you're putting every antag into a single, murderous, greytider box. The point of an antag is to make rounds more enjoyable and I legitimately try to do that for people. To be fair, there are plenty of selfish antags who will use escape as an opportunity to simply put more people horizontal but to say that the mere possibility of an antag escaping makes the round worse for everyone else exacerbates the issue this community has with people's perception of antag players and antags in general. We won't be able to consistently field a better kind of antag player until we trust each other to act for the benefit of other players. This suggestion was made with that sort of trust in mind; it can be used by a mindful antag to stop and wind down after an eventful round while still interacting with the crew. I agree that it could be used to fuel another escape, and in the right context that's fine too. The trick is being able to read the room, get the vibe of the round, and make the right choice.

[OolongCow]

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

I sincerely feel hurt by this response and also feel like you're putting every antag into a single, murderous, greytider box. The point of an antag is to make rounds more enjoyable and I legitimately try to do that for people. 

I am not, and if I made you feel that way, I apologize. You're one of my favorite antag players and I specifically point at you (as can be attested by a discord search) whenever antag players go "well, how SHOULD I behave?" By my standards you do do that and I appreciate it immensely. People like you are one of the reasons security is tolerable and I can't overstate, again, how much I appreciate it.

You had my respect for actually talking to security and attempting to play an actual character who's also sometimes an antag before last Sunday, and your decision to not crash the canon barbecue but actually ahelp if you could cryo and join in on your security character because you thought it'd be more fun and you valued the RP more than "haha I interrupted an event lol!" just cemented that opinion.

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

To be fair, there are plenty of selfish antags who will use escape as an opportunity to simply put more people horizontal but to say that the mere possibility of an antag escaping makes the round worse for everyone else exacerbates the issue this community has with people's perception of antag players and antags in general.

My perceptions and how I feel aren't actionable. While you and players like you dedicated to improving things don't fall under the umbrella of my post, I'm not going to just not say those things. Because, let's be honest, John Hub outnumbers you and the regulars who do actually play antag 3 to 1, and the negative experiences they cause are unfortunately more memorable than the good ones you make.

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

We won't be able to consistently field a better kind of antag player until we trust each other to act for the benefit of other players.

I agree. It's a cold war of antag players and sec players refusing to trust each other.

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

This suggestion was made with that sort of trust in mind; it can be used by a mindful antag to stop and wind down after an eventful round while still interacting with the crew.

Thus why I support Sue's suggestion of a visitation area. There's probably more I could say to encourage further interaction between captured antags and the crew (legal counsel, more incentive to talk to detectives, etc.) but that wasn't in the thread's scope and I don't want to shift it too much. My objection is that I, personally, don't think this will provide enough positives to outweigh the plainly inevitable negatives.

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

I agree that it could be used to fuel another escape, and in the right context that's fine too.

In retrospect, it's so easy to escape from the brig as-is due to wardens not existing / not even following procedure out of a fear of metagaming (when is the last time anyone actually saw a serious criminal get tracking implanted despite half the crimes in the Major section requiring it?) that it quite literally doesn't matter if the antag abuses this proposed system to do it, so I don't disagree here.

On 08/02/2024 at 18:15, Evandorf said:

The trick is being able to read the room, get the vibe of the round, and make the right choice.

I'm going to be honest, here: You are good at this. If the average antag player were all Evandorf clones I'd support your point entirely. But they aren't, and the average antag player displays a level of consideration for others and social awareness roughly equivalent to the average sec player: that being none. It feels like if they were allowed to, most autotraitors would DDoS my computer if they knew admins wouldn't bwoink them just because it was a big red button on their screen and it made them win. They do not care about me, or you, or the tense interrogation roleplay going on between Shaw and the investigator. They want to make spaceman horizontal. They want to see funny things happen. They want to post in general chat about how they totally owned security and say:

">extended
see you guys in three hours"

because they come to an RP server and make non-character antag-only slots where you're lucky to get more than two paragraphs out of them the entire round. It's frustrating, and I loathe giving people like that more rope to hang me with despite knowing that someone has to take the first step, because this server isn't a job for me. I come here to have fun. I shouldn't have to put up with rounds where I actively do not have fun and suffer with the faith that me "selflessly" doing so will magically change the behavior of antag players - most of whom disappear after two months anyway and thus don't have any ability to influence new antags that show up even if I do somehow convince them to trust and respect security players.

It's frustrating, man. I've been playing this game for almost six years, and every server is the same with the back and forth between antags and security. Aurora is the closest to having it right. I want to trust antag players won't abuse something like this. I know you won't. I know Nikola won't. But I don't trust John Hub to not look at this, go "I should find the best way to be annoying to the blue men," and then give security another thing to make their lives miserable until he gets bored and John Hub the Second comes along and begins the cycle anew. I just don't think this is the solution to some very valid problems you bring up, and think it's worth looking elsewhere for answers.

Edited February 16 by OolongCow

[Ramke]

After some days of thinking I'm starting to think the suggested tools, if any, should just be part of security's inventory rather than coded in regulations. The reason for this is two-fold.

If you're at a point where you are HuT, it's unfortunately not really logical in a lore sense for regulations to set them free. However, if the tools are there, it would make it significantly easier for the HoS/Captain to make deals and let people go on parole, if the situation applies (i.e. non-hostile infiltrator). Captains can bend regulations and these deals are part of it. This would obviously require convincing and engagement from Command. Additionally, this would basically ensure they're pretty much used exclusively on antags and by antags, rather than canon.

The other reason is revolution gimmicks, announcements, etc. Having more tools for oppression available would give antags, loyalists, revs and etc. more freedom to diversify their gimmicks. Plus seeing announcements like "all guwan must now wear paxazide collars" would be funny during revolution imho.

TL;DR Not mentioned in regulations, but available in the armoury for extraneous situations.

Edited February 9 by Ramke