Remove Mandatory Mindshield From Captain and HoS - Possible Loadout Option

[evandorf]

I run into this issue with Unathi Heads of Security from time to time. A lot of unathi wouldn't opt for implants and those that do (Aut'Akh) aren't command viable. I'm sure there are other groups that would prefer not to be implanted, but even individuals might just have personal hangups about it.

I think the server culture has evolved past the OOC need for these to be constantly guarding against vamps, cult, and whatnot. Even so, if you want to be protected I think you can just make it a loadout item only applicable to the chosen roles.

The only other thing I think would need to be considered is if there are active regs about it that need to be changed. @CatsinHD , thoughts?

[CatsinHD]

15 minutes ago, evandorf said:

The only other thing I think would need to be considered is if there are active regs about it that need to be changed. @CatsinHD , thoughts?

Nothing regs or SOP wise should be affected by it. They're written without much consideration for having a mindshield.

The suggestion itself, idk. I have no strong feelings either way. I do believe that by the time you reach a captain level, you've typically sipped the kool-aid enough that loyalty to the SCC tends to override some of those concerns. But idk. Worst case, you refuse le funny cult message or vamp message. Afaik no one can force you to convert, so the only change is if you get the option, so an antag might be a little less likely to kill you. And if someone is force-converting you without an LOOC check if you're chill with it, it's bad form imo but that's not here or there.

[SeniorScore]

I feel this is better approached from the perspective of the company. If they have drank the kool-aid that hard and they get to that point but don't want an implant, why risk it?
You wanna sell your soul to the company, have to commit.

[evandorf]

 

7 minutes ago, SeniorScore said:

I feel this is better approached from the perspective of the company. If they have drank the kool-aid that hard and they get to that point but don't want an implant, why risk it?
You wanna sell your soul to the company, have to commit.

I guess my personal biggest hang up is the unathi angle. It was confirmed to me recently that all unathi require a religion and that spirituality is a key aspect of their culture. The only unathi religion that doesn’t have an issue with implants is Aut’akh, but they are not command viable for various reasons. 
 

@Lent23 can correct me if I’m wrong but even though there are possibly agnostic/atheistic unathi out there, our characters are expected to keep to general standards set forth in the lore. So how can the discrepancy be addressed? I feel like we’ve mostly just ignored it in the past but IMO the mindshields feel like a relic of older server culture and don’t quite gel with the scarcity vibes recently, not to mention NBT2. 

[SeniorScore]

3 minutes ago, evandorf said:

 

I guess my personal biggest hang up is the unathi angle. It was confirmed to me recently that all unathi require a religion and that spirituality is a key aspect of their culture. The only unathi religion that doesn’t have an issue with implants is Aut’akh, but they are not command viable for various reasons. 

Being outright prevented from playing an unathi who is able to commit that much sounds like the true issue to it, unless the intended effect is to soft-forbid unathi from holding those roles.

[evandorf]

3 minutes ago, SeniorScore said:

Being outright prevented from playing an unathi who is able to commit that much sounds like the true issue to it, unless the intended effect is to soft-forbid unathi from holding those roles.

I don’t think there was an intention, and this is more than likely two different aspects of lore that don’t mesh but it’s relatively niche so it hasn’t been addressed. Other people might be able to provide more insight.

[wowzewow]

Personally, even though, RIGHT NOW, we're under the heel of SCC or whatever. But knowing NBT2 is afoot, at this point I feel like we can just start moving towards casting off old stuff like this.

We're eventually going to get rid of this anyway, so why not now? We don't really need these LRP hard-coded limitations anymore.

[Fyni]

The mindshields are more of an OOC protection against Captains and HoS been converted by vamps, cult and other such antags. The idea been, their position would basically over power a round were they to be made an antag. Despite everything, I still agree this sentiment is true.

The amount of effort an antag needs to convert these two is minimal given command generally should play along with antags. Afterwards, their hand will be forced by their new masters, who often will not have a command WL or an understanding of the power those positions have over any given round.

The mindshields should remain as they provide a new in universe and lore reason why those two are resistant and why antags would avoid them.

[evandorf]

41 minutes ago, Fyni said:

The mindshields are more of an OOC protection against Captains and HoS been converted by vamps, cult and other such antags. The idea been, their position would basically over power a round were they to be made an antag. Despite everything, I still agree this sentiment is true.

I don't think the OOC protections are as necessary as they used to be. Let me provide my reasoning and see if you agree.

• To my knowledge, vamp thralling is the only antag ability remaining that is both unavoidable and a persistent compromise of these elevated positions. Turning a Captain or HoS into a new vampire already bypasses the mindshield since it is more of a whole body experience and the new vamp is not bound to the antag. Cult conversion is not guaranteed and can be resisted.
• In the propsed changes, the mindshield will be optional, not completely removed. I think to Seniorscore's point above most will have drank the koolaide of the SCC and will want the protection the implant brings. The option to go without will only be for niche characters.
• Given the above two points, you're looking at a very small percentage of instances where you have a niche antag and a niche command member who is susceptible to that antag.
• Even if you were to run into an issue where a susceptible Captain or HoS was thralled, vamp commands to their thralls, unlike AI laws, are not omnipresent. Thralls keep their own identity, perspective, and feelings, so much like how a subverted AI will be expected to not instantly vent the ship, thralls are resources for the vamp and not trump cards.
• Beyond the mixed effectiveness of a thrall, the Captain and HoS are not unimpeachable to the crew. The Captain can be ousted through command vote if he is acting against the crew or SCC interest. The commander requires even less. The effectiveness of these roles to a vamp will be primarily in the midgame where the whole issue isn't yet known to the crew at large. Once secrecy is lost the rest of the crew will ignore or contain the affected command members.

All that being said, I would reiterate that this is only a concern for certain niche command members and that the likelihood of it happening in the current server climate is rather low. 

[wowzewow]

To be fair, Vamp and Cult conversion is pretty damn rare nowadays, and even Vamp thralling has been (mostly) removed since literally controlling someone else has been unilaterally decided to just be horrendously bad.

Cult is in a strange spot because I don't think I've ever seen a Cult round played in like, ever. Conversely, is a Captain or HoS going to willingly even expose themselves to a Cult-like event? A Captain or a Hos isn't going to roll over for a Merc team, I don't see why a Cult would be different. "Playing along" doesn't mean roll over and let them kill you, it's more of "Allowing them to pull off their gimmick instead of immediately sliming them" Seeing that these are non-canon anyways, it's very unlikely to break the server. You can't really one-man-army greytide murderbone people like in MRP servers as a Captain or HoS in Aurora.

 

In a post conversion Aurora, we don't really need the "anti-conversion thing" because we aren't really converting people anymore.

 

...also, I feel like this could probably be lumped in with the skill system. Call it "Volition" or something.

 

[Merlin1230]

Because I didnt see anyone mention it, I do want to point out that mindshields are also very difficult for skrell to commit to as well, and not just unathi since mindshields also block psionics. Skrell going abroad already have to deal with the fact that they wont be able to meaningfully interact with a lot of people psionically, which is one of their main forms of communication, and then adding a mindshield on top of that is effectively tossing out such a core part of being a skrell. Its not unreasonable ICly for the SCC to have fears about psionics and it influencing their staff, but the forced mindshields OOCly feels kinda limiting for me trying to conceptualize a skrell captain since they all have to pass through the barrier of "Would they be this devoted to the SCC to live in silence for however long they have this posting", which in my mind is not exactly a simple barrier to pass.

Also, for the antag thing, giving antags leeway doesnt have to mean they let the antag do whatever they want. I feel like you could not let a antag easily convert you as a captain, but still give them leeway by for example, not reporting that they tried to do that so that they have space to pivot and their round isnt immediately ended because they went for it. Improv loves their "Yes, and"s, but theres also a time and place for "No, but". Like, maybe instead of converting the captain, offer to arrange for someone else to be converted, whether just to save your own skin or in a genuine morbid interest to see this through! There are plenty of options for a captain to play into a antag's gimmick without just accepting conversion. My understanding of the command whitelist as well is that part of it is to make sure that the people in command are people that consider and think about what helps make the round as fun as they possibly make it, and coming to the conclusion that their conversion as the highest authority on the ship might not be the best thing for the round would fall under that and would be a fair decision.. Hell, it might even be fine, theres enough people that could be riled up into taking action- If security is wililng to search and arrest consulars, even though doing so has so many more hoops then the captain, then theyd probably be willing to do it for the one at the top.

[Fyni]

3 hours ago, evandorf said:

-snip-

These are all reasonable and true points (beyond missing that cult conversions exist - you can't expect Captain/HoS characters to basically allow themselves to die instead of been culted which is the only alternative). I still believe the mindshield sidesteps a potential ooc moderation issue - no matter how rare - which can end in bad feelings for all involved.

While it's true that people from certain origins (Skrell, most sinta, Dominian) might object to an unneeded implant been provided, I also fully believe that said characters have the choice to not have the implant by refusing a promotion or seeking work in a different department, whereas others will compromise their beliefs in favour of the a higher paying job and more money - it's a classic theme of not just sci fi fiction but all fiction.

I am concerned that by making the mindshield optional, it may become seen as a power gaming item, rather then a narrative purpose - after all, you wouldn't want to charge loadout points for something which already exists, but it also provides in theory a mechanical straight upgrade (skrell psionics none withstanding).

1 hour ago, Merlin1230 said:

-snip-

"Antag leeway" in this case means something as simple as isolating yourself - i.e. going into the Captain's office or HoS' office and tinting the windows. At this point, a vampire with the starter powers can enthrall the victim with no chance for failure. I tell you this as someone who has had their captain be a light snack for a vampire over a dozen times - and had an attempted enthralment at least twice.

The issue arises when the Vamp antag and the enthrall Cap/HoS don't agree on what is a right amount of escalation or what is a right move. The vamp may feel they went to the risk and danger of enthralling that command member only for it to derail their gimmick. Conversly, the enthralled Captain may feel the Vampire player is asking for too much but sees no way to escape their oversight in a reasonable IC way for a thrall (and note, this can happen for any enthralled, but the amount of power in Cap or HoS is so much this is much more likely). Or, the nightmare scenario - the command member embraces a vampire's orders which are too much and the round entirely goes off the deep end in a bad way. This can lead to bwoinks and bad feelings all around when the situation could frankly have merely been avoided in the first place by a mindshield.

 

Ultimately, I believe this is one of many cases of gameplay vs lore (see also: our none existent brig times, less than 2 hour PDA batteries, miracle medical) where gameplay has to win out, and we need to kind of handwave the lore implications. And while the instances of the mindshield actually doing something are now extremely rare, it prevents issues for when it does happen - just because something is rare doesn't mean we shouldn't have the protection. (It also providing rare antag gimmicks, such as a recent one where me and another skrell operative attempted to remove the skrell Captain's mindshield).

I'd like to also say, this is discussion in good faith and I'm not super committed to my side here - I just believe the points I raise are true and undeniable, as much as I believe Evan's points are for the most part correct. If the consensus is to remove them, then so be it.

[evandorf]

24 minutes ago, Fyni said:

you can't expect Captain/HoS characters to basically allow themselves to die instead of been culted which is the only alternative

I disagree. If allowing yourself to die is unreasonable, why is the option there at all? Similarly as a thrall, if you are a command member and know that you can’t disobey a vamp’s orders but know that you will do extreme harm to the crew if you continue to be under their control, it would be one of the few times suicide would be a viable option. A captain, dead by suicide, alone in their office is rife with RP and investigative potential. So long as you’re not giving the antag away.

[Fyni]

21 minutes ago, evandorf said:

I disagree. If allowing yourself to die is unreasonable, why is the option there at all? Similarly as a thrall, if you are a command member and know that you can’t disobey a vamp’s orders but know that you will do extreme harm to the crew if you continue to be under their control, it would be one of the few times suicide would be a viable option. A captain, dead by suicide, alone in their office is rife with RP and investigative potential. So long as you’re not giving the antag away.

As for people dying over been converted, what I mean by "it's unreasonable" is more "we can't expect to enforce that Captains and HoS will always take that option", doubly so when the cultist, who could have just killed them if they wished, also went through the effort of grabbing them.

Thralls are specifically given this text:

	to_chat(T, SPAN_NOTICE("You have been forced into a blood bond by [T_vampire.master], and are thus their thrall. While a thrall may feel a myriad of emotions towards their master, ranging from fear, to hate, to love; the supernatural bond between them still forces the thrall to obey their master, and to listen to the master's commands.<br><br>You must obey your master's orders, you must protect them, you cannot harm them."))

An antag who's thrall commits suicide instead of doing as they ask might be rightfully miffed and send an ahelp. If that antag wanted that person dead, they could have done that - instead they went with a thrall because they assumed it would aid their gimmick, killed themselves, and got them in more hot water then they wanted, all out of their control. While this may not be the case everytime - the vamp might see it as good drama for their gimmick for example - I don't think it's this obscure impossibility.

You've gotten to the point where a character, breaking through supernatural conditioning, plus in the case of cult unbelievable pain, would rather kill themselves to protect the ship and crew, but won't take an implant? I still think characters who's morals are that absolute would just not seek employ as a HoS or Captain if it meant getting an implant.