Extend the Nuke

[Jamini]

Okay, seriously. This is ridiculous.

Every possible nuclear threat is /ignored/ by security, or civilian staff. When a nuke is expected, or a malf AI happens, everyone runs to the outpost /every/ time.

This isn't healthy for the game, and evacuating when you really shouldn't as a non-antag is stupid beyond belief. Doubly so when anyone on the station who is running away is, /essentially/ giving up not only their livelihood. But also stranding themselves to slowly starve to death.

As an avid supporter of making nuke and malf have more teeth, I suggest that nuclear detonations be extended to include the Tcommsat and outpost.

[jackfractal]

Most of the civilian staff has no way to interact with MALF or Nuke. That's solely the domain of engineering and security, and mostly just security for New Cops.

The stakes of losing the station having teeth is all well and good, but it's really crappy to 'lose the game' when you have absolutely no way of impacting the outcome of the situation.

[Carver]

Would this not just encourage people to call the shuttle more often, or end the round with a nuke more often for that matter? If the round is ending anyways, I don't see what difference evacuating to the outpost is going to make, whether they live or die from it. You're essentially triggering a round end either way.

[Guest]

I really can't say I'm a fan of this. It seems almost like a vindictive suggestion, designed to make fellow players even more salty.

[Jamini]

Most of the civilian staff has no way to interact with MALF or Nuke. That's solely the domain of engineering and security, and mostly just security for New Cops.

 

That's really /NOT/ true.

Let's see

-Medical: Supporting the core breach. Healing/cloning engineers.

-Chemistry: Oh god thermite

-Genetics: Hulk/Pressure res. Smash down walls. This is a time when you can cut loose.

-Science: Bombs, Drills, Telescience, Printing guns

-Robotics: Resetting borgs, fixing broken unsynced borgs, building a second AI to aid in fighting against the first.

-Xenobiology: EMP cores, if you have them.

-Cargo: Guns, guns guns. Equipment. Trollies. Backup engineers (most of them have construction). Welding masks. EQUIPMENT

-Mining: Drills, Ripleys, mesons... these guys are deadly dangerous

-Botany, Barkeep, Chef: Backup medics and moving the wounded away, mostly. They can also carry melee weapons if needed.

-Assisstants: Most have some basic construction or similar. Or can shoot a gun. Or both.

-Janitor: Cleaning up after the whole shebang.

The only thing STOPPING you from getting involved is your unwillingness to do so. it is not necessary for you to break character to help out another department in a support role.

People are ignoring nuclear threats. This needs to stop. It's becoming a stupid-level problem.

[jackfractal]

So, wait. You're arguing that, as the chef, I should grab my knife and go after the nuke ops, rather than running away to the mining station?

Or else, if I don't do that, because that's insane, it's my fault when security can't find the nuke hidden on the exterior of the solars and it explodes and kills absolutely everyone?

I... disagree with this.

Mining drills stop nuke's how? Protect against lasers how?

Nobody arms assistants ever. Have you ever seen security hand out guns to assistants to fight the badguys? I haven't. Would that ever be a good idea? I'm thinking no.

And how is cleaning up AFTERWARD going to help prevent a nuclear bomb? The janitor has no way of interacting with these rounds.

So yeah. I refute your point.

Security and engineering get to play with the antags, the rest of the crew cowers or flees. That's theoretically desired behavior given the 'validgaming' thread earlier this weekend.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

... What sort of facility doesn't have evacuation procedures for the civilian staff? If terrorists attack the CDC building, they're not going to arm the interns and force the janitor to set broken bones.

It allows a realistic evacuation without the round-ending evacuation of a shuttle call.

[Guest]

People are ignoring nuclear threats. This needs to stop. It's becoming a stupid-level problem.

 

So let's force a solution rather than having an actual discussion on it to improve it, then?

Better yet, why don't we lead and act by example? Get some people who agree with your point of view and playstyle, and try to involve people into that method of operation if you feel it works somehow.

[Jamini]

Jackfractal: how often is it that your precious Chefs/Bartenders/other civilians are the people talking over the operatives when you have one making demands? How many times do we have people doing absolutely /nothing/ while the nuke teams are storming the station? You could work to defuse a situation before it starts, or even help out security by keeping loudmouthed idiots from making the mercs bomb you in the first team. Let's not forget that Mercenaries get yelled at if they detonate nukes willy-nilly. To the point where certain players have been antaggedbanned for it.

How often in the last month has the crew utterly given up even contesting a malf AI, sec/engineering and all? Simply /allowing/ their livlihood and only means home to go up in smoke? Why can't a chef in delta go for a borg getting attacked by a mob? Why can't they pull bodies away to get them to medica/safe areas?

Aurora needs the normal, average player to step up a little. You can point fingers at people like delta and I and call us powergamers have you. It may even be true to an extent. But sitting and choosing to do /nothinng/ is just as bad if not worse than playing to your capability. Especially in a gamemode with an obvious or revealed antagonist.

If a few people need to die because they turned tail and fled to the easy way out: so be it.

[SierraKomodo]

Considering we had discussions a few months ago about civilian staff going after an AI and breaking into the core when they shouldn't be, why are we now wanting civilian staff to be going after an AI and breaking into the core when they shouldn't be?

[jackfractal]

I have no particular affection for the chef, bartender, or any other civilian role. I never play them. I almost always play synthetics, so I get to be involved in most things.

But, I mean seriously, if we're talking about the service jobs, when has anyone involved in negotiations with a squad of mercenaries ever listened to the chef? The bartender? One of the doctors? Someone in science?

Pretty much never.

They almost never listen to the captain. Negotiations are hugely ineffective at the best of times because, for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this conversation, it is very hard to communicate effectively in SS13.

Still, it should be pointed out that butting into a negotiation as someone unqualified (read: Not the Captain or the Head of Security) is a good way to get arrested for misuse of coms.

In fact, while I agree that forsaking the station is done a too hastily, we should take into consideration the three things we see far more often than that:

Urist McSecurity [148.0] says, "I'm tired of hearing people talk about inane nonsense. Clear the coms!"

Urist McCaptain [148.0] says, "The janitor dropped a bucket. We are on code blue for the rest of the shift. Everyone stay in your departments!"

Urist McERT [148.0] says, "Anyone in the hallways with a weapon will be shot. Anyone in the hallways without a weapon will be detained."

So yeah. Civilian staff do not get to participate in most antag rounds save in very rare instances:

 

• they are made into an antag in Cult or Revolution
• they are specifically targeted by an Antag in traitor, nuke, changeling, vampire, or wizard.
  
• they are asked to provide a very specific and very limited service, typically with no explanation, such as ordering guns or loyalty implants as Cargo, or making thermite as a chemist

 

This is why security is the most overstaffed department. You get to participate in 'the thing' that's happening that round, every round.

[witchbells]

I have to agree with Callabaddie.

I also feel like you're completely foregoing the concept of fear roleplay and think people should go after hostiles just 'cause. This is a research station primarily staffed by civilians, not a ragtag group of reject marines.

[Skull132]

How terrible am I in saying that, if you want to avoid people escaping a nuke, why not destroy and render unusable the three shuttles that can provide that escape? Literally, stop people from escaping, and thus, make them despair.

[Jamini]

How terrible am I in saying that, if you want to avoid people escaping a nuke, why not destroy and render unusable the three shuttles that can provide that escape? Literally, stop people from escaping, and thus, make them despair.

 

Do you mean automatically? Or as the AI?

Automatically, that would be an unfair tell that a round is malfunction. Plus it would be shitty for miners and several others who use the outposts.

As the AI... they certainly can. But the crux of my complaint is that as a whole station crew are not making any attempt to stop malfunctioning AI's, at all

[Skull132]

Not automatically, it'd have to be something the AI does.

Aaand is that a bad thing? It's a choice that people make: to submit. And if the AI curbstomps their escape attempt, weeell, they'll die. As is/was their choice. I don't see an issue with that.

Plus, here's the thing to consider: with the AI core being actually difficult to break into, as opposed to shiteasy street on the last map rendition, you start taking account more the amount of time it is required to actually break in there. Chances are, you'll overestimate that amount of time, and if the AI leaves a very short Delta timer, it's easier to be all, "Uhuh. I could try and fail. Or I could gtfo. I'll gtfo."

And making the nuke more kil would be, ultimately, a petty solution for your problem. In my opinion, anyways.

[Jamini]

There isn't any other solution. As long as the asteroid remains a viable and easy alternative to escape (which it wasn't. It is only in the last few months that there have been THREE shuttles out there) people will continue to flee at the first sign of conflict rather than try and solve their own problems. It's an active avoidance of RP and conflict which is disgusting and stupid.

Whatever. I'm done trying to argue this. I guess I'll just get to be forced to evacuate and never, ever, get to actually participate in the round because of loloutpost every round.

[Filthyfrankster]

So, wait. You're arguing that, as the chef, I should grab my knife and go after the nuke ops, rather than running away to the mining station?

 

What? You never watched under siege before? Clearly it's time to put your super secret sol defence force skills and space navy seals training to use!

 

But no really, The civilian jobs respond how civilians should during a nuke ops attack, If you're not a fighter, Chances are what NT told you to do in this situation is to save all the science info you can, bail to the research station after wiping all the machines and data.

Chef, Miner, Bartender. Chances are you'll bail to the mining outpost incase of a code delta/Attack, Not like you're going to see a bartender shoot nuke ops with a fucking doubled barrel shotgun after security gave them lethal ammo.

Fear RP comes into play.

[Carver]

I raise you another suggestion, then. If you unrealistically buff the Malf Nuke to the point where the only option is to violently murder the AI as fast as possible, then nerf it at the same time by letting Engineers defuse the Nuke in the vault to stop the explosion, this is logical and far less suicidal than rushing a core full of laser turrets.

[Jamini]

I raise you another suggestion, then. If you unrealistically buff the Malf Nuke to the point where the only option is to violently murder the AI as fast as possible, then nerf it at the same time by letting Engineers defuse the Nuke in the vault to stop the explosion, this is logical and far less suicidal than rushing a core full of laser turrets.

 

The telecomms sat or simply jumping ship would both be viable GTFO options. This would simply be to stop the constant evacuation of all personnel to the outpost every single malf or nuke round.

I'd rather have defusing the nuke give additional time, if anything. But hey, people hate the idea that they should actually be forced into any sort of conflict. Because they might die. gasp!

[swat43]

I dont know how about you, really, nor do i even know how you would act, but in real time scenario, i would be scared as fuck and get the FUCK OUT OF THE FUCKING PLACE WHERE IT IS TRYING TO MURDER YOU, AND TURN YOU INTO FLYING DUST IN THE SPACE.

I would have to be OD on drugs high on joint to even think of something as stupid to try and save the station when the countdown is showed in your face, counting seconds by seconds, when my fucking heart is racing, and mind in confusion, as to what the fuck to do now! If i go and help do something against an AI, that has control over everything, has probably even death borgs that will lubricate your a**hole and then stick you between airlocks and door smash you, then nope, id rather be a coward but a coward that values his life and maybe help some one else to survive by making fast way to the outpost or other safe location, while also helping those who are also looking for a quick exit.

Seriously, i don't want to insult you or anything Jamini, but i am not a dense stupid moron to go and throw my life away, over some stupid flying junk of metal in space with a f*cking high yield nuclear bomb on it. You want to save the flying space metal junk? Fine, don't go whining to others because you tried to play a hero. And LET ALONE SOME NUCLEAR MERCENARY GROUPS WITH GUNS to put 1000000......00000.... over bullets into your damn skull and then sell your bodys organs to some black market, or let it rot to hell untill nuke goes off and turns into a glow dust

Life > Space junk. These are my two cents over this.

[Jamini]

I dont know how about you, really, nor do i even know how you would act, but in real time scenario, i would be scared as fuck and get the FUCK OUT OF THE FUCKING PLACE WHERE IT IS TRYING TO MURDER YOU, AND TURN YOU INTO FLYING DUST IN THE SPACE.

I would have to be OD on drugs high on joint to even think of something as stupid to try and save the station when the countdown is showed in your face, counting seconds by seconds, when my fucking heart is racing, and mind in confusion, as to what the fuck to do now! If i go and help do something against an AI, that has control over everything, has probably even death borgs that will lubricate your a**hole and then stick you between airlocks and door smash you, then nope, id rather be a coward but a coward that values his life and maybe help some one else to survive by making fast way to the outpost or other safe location, while also helping those who are also looking for a quick exit.

Seriously, i don't want to insult you or anything Jamini, but i am not a dense stupid moron to go and throw my life away, over some stupid flying junk of metal in space with a f*cking high yield nuclear bomb on it. You want to save the flying space metal junk? Fine, don't go whining to others because you tried to play a hero. And LET ALONE SOME NUCLEAR MERCENARY GROUPS WITH GUNS to put 1000000......00000.... over bullets into your damn skull and then sell your bodys organs to some black market, or let it rot to hell untill nuke goes off and turns into a glow dust

Life > Space junk. These are my two cents over this.

 

Then why do we have malf at all? Why do we have nuke? Why do we have both in the secret rotation?

The point of these two rounds is to escalate into a life or death situation. It is designed around fight or flight. There is a very explicit reason that the shuttle is not possible to be called in malfunction, and during nuke the original design was a head-to-head war between the station and the ops.

Yes, I get we aren't the same as every other server. But discarding the very basic premise of the round when the antagonist is playing the round straight is something that should not be done.

It used to be that getting to the outpost alive was an accomplishment. Cargo was, and is, far from the rest of the station. Before the research outpost and the engineering outpost were even a thing, you had to cross the entire damn station to get over there for a chance to escape. Your other alternatives were to jump, or risk the teleporter. Getting out was hard. It was difficult. If the AI wasn't taken down, you almost certainly would die. If you didn't stop the ops, you would probably die.

This led to interesting conflict. Forcing you to face mortality and either weather through it, or crumple. Sometimes both.

Now? People evacuate here at the drop of a hat. Evacuation is easy, and it's inexpensive. People flee to science, engineering, and cargo instantly. To the point where players have screamed and whined when an op team destroyed the asteroid before bombing the station!

The nuke is intended to be game-ender. Do or die for everyone. Yes that even means the fucking chef and bartender (both of whom /do/ have weapons and tools at their disposal).

And right now it's a joke. Just run 30 steps to the nearest shuttle and survive. Whoop! nobody gives a flying fuck about their jobs, because their mortality isn't at risk. Currently the tension that is supposed to be present in those situations is simply missing.

Something needs to be done.

[SgtSammac]

Just going to ask this question.

Did you ACTUALLY TRY to stop the evac to the outposts? Did you present your points to the rest of command? Did you give them any reasons not to?

Its all fair and well trying to get OOC Change, but when you can still change things IC you should.

Heck, the few rounds I have played, people who suggest evac, normally get shot the fuck down straight away.

[Jamini]

Just going to ask this question.

Did you ACTUALLY TRY to stop the evac to the outposts? Did you present your points to the rest of command? Did you give them any reasons not to?

Its all fair and well trying to get OOC Change, but when you can still change things IC you should.

Heck, the few rounds I have played, people who suggest evac, normally get shot the fuck down straight away.

 

I was not a command member last time I played a malf round. Nor do I always play command. Even when I do, I do not normally play a commander who has any say in handling of staff.

According to the wording of code Delta. You can be executed out of hand for disobeying a head of staff.

There isn't a tangible threat to the crew anymore from nuclear warheads. people run the hell away and let their workplace go up in smoke. There is no incentive to become involved with the round. How is that in any way remotely ideal?

[TishinaStalker]

Okay, now you confused me.

 

The point of these two rounds is to escalate into a life or death situation. It is designed around fight or flight.

 

Why is it a problem when they select flight over fight then if you just explicitly stated that they're designed to be either fight OR flight? I'm... I'm sorry, but it kinda seems like you made a counterpoint to yourself.

[Jamini]

Okay, now you confused me.

 

The point of these two rounds is to escalate into a life or death situation. It is designed around fight or flight.

 

Why is it a problem when they select flight over fight then if you just explicitly stated that they're designed to be either fight OR flight? I'm... I'm sorry, but it kinda seems like you made a counterpoint to yourself.

 

I'm simply saying that flight is too easy. To the point where the crew always succeed at getting away, cutting down on genuine conflict.

You'll note I didn't say that every Z-level would be affected. The sattelite, or jumping off would still be viable ways to escape. However, the asteroid isn't difficutl to reach anymore. Not by a long shot. In fact, it's stupidly easy to escape from the escape wing to the outpost. (Perhaps thirty seconds if the AI isn't actively trying to kill the escapees)

The issue isn't that people are running away. It's how easy it is to run away.