Remove Taser Buff

[Skull132]

Okay. So many, many, many months ago, the tasers were buffed from the state we received them in.

Preface: upon importing a pull from Bay that switched weakned based stuns out to agony based stuns, it was initially perceived that the tasers were too weak. So we made them use a more powerful projectile (70 vs 50 agony damage upon hit).

After as many months of observing how situations develop with this, I am inclined to believe that the buff was a mistake. Here is why: in almost every situation, the taser disables in two hit. The issue is, this singular fact makes the taser leagues more lethal and useful, objectively better, than a lethal weapon (the majority of which disable after 3 or more hits). Which pretty much places security in a position where they can legitimately give no shits about fearRP, under the, as it stands, legitimate excuse that they know the effectiveness of their weapon system.

The antagonists have access to no such weapons, unless they are a sec officers or manage to acquire one. This creates a situation where a security officer doesn't necessarily need to give proper thought to the weapons employed by his adversary, and enables a very simple mindset: run in, stun in two hits, cuff -- end of game. Which is, ultimately, lazy and leads to uninteresting scenarios.

And that's my main issue with this. While the antagonists are given an assortment of lethal weapons, weapons that will fuck up your day if you let them. Stun is one of the most powerful tools available in SS13 combat. And security, almost exclusively, has access to the best ranged stun weapon in the game. I think that going back to where the tasers did 50 agony, instead of 70, would make situations more interesting, and force security officers to give proper thought to hostage situations, or how to manage antagonists in general.

[Jboy2000000]

Question, how does "Agony" damage work? Because I would assume that it works in a sense like if Agony Damage >/= 100 they get downed, meaning if its 70 or 50 it'll have the same effect.

[Skull132]

After the debuff, you should generally fall after 3 hits, instead of 2. I forget the exact mechanics at play, though.

[Loow]

... force security officers to give proper thought to hostage situations, or how to manage antagonists in general.

 

I somewhat recently watched a detective rambo into a RP hostage situation and take down the antagonist by firing off around 3 to 4 shots from his revolver at point-blank range. It was a tad excessive.

I can see your logic behind the switch up until the last sentence. Making tasers weaker will not in any way fix the state of RP. It is more likely that security would just use just settle for using other tools (batons, flashbangs, laser rifles, combat shotguns) to acquire similar results. I don't see any security RPing in a hostage situation unless they want to. Nerfing tasers won't do much to fix that, sadly.

[Alberyk]

Still, it bugs me to see people fighting nuclear operatives or lethal armed targets using tasers, so, a nerf would be in place.

[Guest]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora/issues/632

In combination with the enhancement suggested, both of these would do pretty well to dumb down tasers versus armored opponents.

[Shadow]

After oberving some rounds in the past days.... I support this. Mainly because I observed a round where an officer took down a antag with lethal weapons and a hostage with two shots from the tazer.

[Commissar_Drew]

Right, folks:

long ago after the taser was originally pulled from the depths of the Bay code, I remember the conversations that flew. We decided the taser was too weak, so it was buffed to its current state. Now certain parties are suggesting the switch back to the original.

Let me reiterate the biggest concern I can remember:

"Security will resort to lethal weapons too often."

And, to be honest, wesecurity will. People will die. People will complain. And we'll need to switch /something/ again. WeSecurity shouldn't need to break out a rifle for that knife wielding assistant (and you know wethey very well might)

To those who say that they don't like seeing security rush into a hostage situation:

It's going to happen /regardless/ of gear. Security players are not trained. Some do not know how to approach a situation like that. Some do /not/ think critically and just seek out "Catch that antag." You debuff tasers? They go in with batons and flashbangs. The only way to stay on top of this is to /train/. It is to prepare officers for this. Which is a responsibility that I feel falls to our heads of staff whitelistees and server staff in situations that outstandingly call for it (repeated behavior despite training, etc).

Personally, as a security regular, I have a pair of counter-suggestions:

1) Instead of a debuffed through number of shots needed to down a suspect, could we limit range? Our pepperspray is already capped at three tiles. Would it be difficult apply a range cap for the taser? (//ASIDE\\ Hell, if we went this way and coupled it with the next option, we could make it one hit again, but that is neither here nor there.).

2) Grant tator tots equipment that is taser resistant. My taser /shouldn't/get through that hardsuit rearguards of it being security, engineering, or operative. For your run-of-the-mill tators, grant them, perhaps, armor/padding option through the relay. Something concealable. Perhaps add resistance to the chameleon jumpsuit?

So, folks, let's not debuff the tasers to require more shots.

Let's buff the bad guys who needshould have the buff.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I think it would be a better suggestion, such as the above, to give tasers a short range without nerfing them. This means security has to run up close to whomever it is they want to tase. They might just zerg rush with batons again, but it at least nerfs tasers while still having them be effective close-range weapons like pepperspray. It would give us the balance between batons and spray.

And onto this, just dramatically increase the ability of antagsuits to absorb taser damage.

[Skull132]

Buffing lethals will not achieve a similar result. If you get taken down in two shots, it really does not matter if you can neutralize your opponent in one hit, the moment someone decides to double-tap you, the amount of time you're given to react is very small, and you will not get a shot off, at that point.

As far as equipment goes, there is an issue with this. A piece of gear that allows you to take 3 or 4 taser shots would very much turn into a "must get" for every traitor forever. Which is, as far as SS13 goes, shitty design. In my opinion, no one item on the uplink should be a must get, otherwise, we might as well hand it to every traitor automatically, without fee. There's also the issue that it'll turn into an immediate calling card, meta-wise (has suit, is traitor, great).

The range idea is an interesting one, I'll say that much. And I'll mull on it while at work.

Also, here's the thing about training. This would be training through mechanics. Because you're going to die horribly if you retain the present mindset. Plus, normal officer wouldn't have access to lethals.

[Commissar_Drew]

As far as equipment goes, there is an issue with this. A piece of gear that allows you to take 3 or 4 taser shots would very much turn into a "must get" for every traitor forever. Which is, as far as SS13 goes, shitty design. In my opinion, no one item on the uplink should be a must get, otherwise, we might as well hand it to every traitor automatically, without fee. There's also the issue that it'll turn into an immediate calling card, meta-wise (has suit, is traitor, great).

You do have a point here, Skull. I'll concede that it may not be a good idea to include it to tator tots uplinks; however, I still feel that armor (i.e. hardsuits) should block it out.

 

The range idea is an interesting one, I'll say that much. And I'll mull on it while at work.

One of two ain't too bad. I do think this "range cap" would cut down on the silly situation of taser versus lethally armed opponent.

 

Also, here's the thing about training. This would be training through mechanics. Because you're going to die horribly if you retain the present mindset. Plus, normal officer wouldn't have access to lethals.

I'm not precisely sure what you're saying here, Skull. Maybe you've misunderstood me, or I am misunderstanding you. Could you rephrase your point here, please?

Specifically:

Because you're going to die horribly if you retain the present mindset.

Thank you.

[Contextual]

Alright, I've been mulling this one over a bit, and I think I've got a decent solution.

Leave taser stats alone. The way they work right now is somewhat a mockery of how they work in real life, which is par for the course for most things in SS13 and is fine. Two electrodes in the perp, enter electricity stage right, exit antag stage right.

Now, we could then buff two things: Energy Carbines and antag armor/add antag stunresist sneaky suit attachment.

Energy Carbines are, realistically, godawful weapons for any use. They use more energy for less or the same effect as a taser, have a depressingly small 'magazine' and are harder to store than a taser. They're bulkier, flashier, more obvious, and worse than a professional-grade personal defense weapon, which is silly. Solution? Short of doubling capacity (bad idea gameplay wise, lethal lasers everywhere), change the projectile they fire when set to nonlethal. Make it the same range or less than tasers, and make it a one-stop shop for stunning people. Replace 'electrodes' with 'arcs' of energy, allow it to go through windows (maybe), and suddenly you have a weapon that's worth upgrading to on code red.

Then, make it so that antagsuits resist tasers. Tasers fire electrodes, which work by hitting flesh--make it require many more hits, maybe so that they dont work at all on syndicate hardsuits. Then, make it so that the arcs of the energy carbines do stun through hardsuits, in one or two shots(either or per balance testing).

Now, this would not only balance tasers, but it would allow security to escalate its nonlethal capacity alongside its lethal capacity, leading to (hopefully) less death and more roleplay. Carbines would be worth carrying, and more gameplay options all around.

Alternately, you could leave the carbines alone, and instead switch tasers over to a real electrode system. Meaning, little darts come out, do half a brute damage, leave a mark, and are embedded in the target. Range is limited to 4-5 tiles. Once target is stuck, activate held item to deliver insta-stun until darts are removed. 2-3 stun charges per fullcharge taser. Once a target is stuck, leaving the max range will cause the darts to violently rip out of the target, dealing significant brute damage, cause bleeding, and have a decent chance to break the taser. Darts can be removed by hand with no damage or chance of breakage by any nonstunned party, through use of emptyhand help intent. Stowing the taser counts as leaving the max range. Darts are retarded by hardsuits and when targetted areas are armored, causing the dart to drop to the floor. This comes with a very slim chance to break the taser, as well. The dart can be retracted by activating held item, or leaving max range, a la pAI doorhack cable. Broken tasers can be repaired by skilled personnel through use of cable coil. Repairing tasers without insulated gloves and without removing the power cell will cause electrocution.

Either of the two suggestions would be fun to see. Maybe both.

[Xelnagahunter]

Everyone worries that lethal weapons will become an instant problem. But they shouldn't Only a handful of people have access to lethal weapons and those people should be trusted NOT to hand them our without proper orders or reasoning. Lethal weapons are to be a last resort and that's part of the definition of our server: HEAVY ROLE PLAY. If security keeps passing up on that and handing out lethal weapons like candy then it's time to star job banning people who can't maintain a roleplaying aspect properly while doing the job.

[canon35]

I never knew tasers were buffed. On almost every server I've played on and used a taser on, 2 shots to the head always took them down.

[Chaznoodles]

Tastes are tastes. If you get shot, you go down.

[K0NFL1QT]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

 

Except now we just go back to using stun batons.

[canon35]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

 

Except now we just go back to using stun batons.

 

Or we just grab carbines when wizards attack, because no one wants to carry numerous cartridges that take up space.

[Guest Menown]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

 

Except now we just go back to using stun batons.

 

That's why I suggested telebatons. Telebaton as a show of force for when your life is being fucked, and the taser for close detention.

[Skull132]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

 

I would suggest actually playing and using the tool in question before speaking on it. A single hit from the taser already disables: you lose your movement speed. A second shot puts you down. Even now, even without the one hit KO they used to have, they are effective. And there is a literal string of arrests and situations that have been managed to prove the assessment I am currently making.

[Guest]

Also, a third shot will put you into unconsciousness.

Like, super fucking asleep.

[Guest Menown]

Tasers are fine. If you can't drop somebody with two shots, you shouldn't probably officer.

Taser is my go-to for detentions. Ironically I never face backlash over it.

As was mentioned though, I think that they should be one charge, one shot.

[jackfractal]

I like the one-shot idea. That might be worth testing?

[Vanagandr]

Tasers are useless unless they disable in one shot. Like, you know, tasers. Police, military, buff guys at the gym; it doesn't matter, you go down. Why would you create a non-lethal weapon that leaves open the possibility for a violent conflict to drag on when used? You want a quick, deathless resolution.

If you want to 'balance' it out, make every taser carry only one shot. Give them cartridges that have to be manually loaded. Now you have to use your taser carefully.

Tasers, from what I've heard, aren't a sure thing. They're great while you hold the trigger but when you let up...

There's a world of difference between some cadet getting dzzt'd in training and Urist McFelon who ISN'T GOING BACK TO JAIL AGAIN.

[Skull132]

As a note. If the tasers were to be upgraded, then this would validate any antagonist in preemptively and, often wordlessly killing an approaching sec officer. Just so we're clear.