Character/Player: Safiya Isra/XXTheFurryXx, AGAIN

[Vanagandr]

BYOND Key: Vanagandr

Player Byond Key: XXTheFurryXx

Staff involved: None

Reason for complaint: Genetics chucklefucking, IC troublemaking when favour returned

Approximate Date/Time: 10:30, December 30th

So, Isra chucklefucking around with powers again.

Yes, fine, whatever.

I was the janitor.

Isra was playing games with movable objects and trapped an engineer in maint, as she does.

Also sent my cart flying away.

Rescued the engineer, we went to remonstrate with her.

New geneticist arrived, I followed her in, was stuck outside the doors of Genetics for a little while, then managed to work my way in.

Splashed water on the floor, slipped Isra, *honk*, chucklefucking punished in kind.

All good.

Then she comes out for round two, with the amazing self-slamming locker.

Fine, whatever, I've had enough, get stuffed.

I go to retrieve my cart, find it, then she comes after and grabs it again.

I follow, of course; a Janitor is nothing without his cart.

She runs into Telesci, I follow.

She runs into Research, I follow.

She runs into Genetics and slams the door.

Now trapped in Research, I mill around for a while and follow a Xenobiologist back into glorious Maintenance.

Hang on, there she is!

She's in Research. She doesn't have my cart, though.

One thing leads to another, slip, *honk*, swipe ID, "thanks", run into Genetics, here's my cart, grab it, some more scuffling, I distinctly recall being disarmed and dropping the ID but apparently it ended up in the cart's trash bag during the clickfest.

So, fine, all's fair; I've got my cart back, geneticist got her chucklefuck on, everyone's happy.

Then she gets sec and the CMO involved.

Got salty when the superpowered detective cuffed me, because the complaint I have is, beyond the usual, you don't do this.

Chucklefuck, ok, whatever, all good, but don't fucking get sec involved when you get honked back and lose, especially when you started it. If you got something taken off you in the clusterfuck, PDA message or something, because if you come running after someone with your fucking headglow going they're just going to assume you're coming back for round three and sax harder. How the fuck am I supposed to filter through my gear and find your damned cat ID when you're chasing me?

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lb3shsujbknuitp/log%202015-12-30%20%2810%2043%20pm%29.htm?dl=0

[Garnascus]

Right, i was the CMO in question. I was only privy to what was happening after safi shouted something about you stealing her ID and the AI informed me you where both next to my office in the viro entrance. This was also ahelped by another player, this incident was decided to be /strictly IC/. My problem with this complaint however is you took it upon yourself to get your things back and escalate the situation yourself. why didnt you get security involved?

[the_furry]

Yep, this should definitely be in ir report, But ok. i don’t think I’ve had an IR report submitted on me.

But let’s get this straightened out. Dude, you pushed someone on the floor and stole their ID to break into a highly secured research lab…over a janitor cart. Let’s not forget to mention how you used metagame information to know safi was the one that moved the water tanks that where behind her lab. I was doing it through the wall with xray, but magically a fucking janitor knows what’s up? You acted like I just ran around doing this all day. No I was in my lab, I only used TK in my lab, moving a few tanks to tease an engineer who appeared to have fun rping something about ghosts. That is a far fucking cry from chucklefucking with powers. I moved two tanks in the way of an engineer to spook them while they were walking between medical and science. How is that chucklefucking? You act like if I touch a fucking object with tk that automatically counts as chucklefucking. In fact it started with good rp as the engineer thought the station might have been haunted or something. After she showed you, you came straight in without a word and knocked me on my ass. So yes I’m gona take revenge and steal your simple janitor cart. What did you do then? “one thing leads to another” my ass, You thought it’s prudent to push someone over lay your hands on them steal there ID and break into a research laboratory (again with almost zero dialog). Yes I’m gona call security on that shit. Why the fuck didn’t you call security over the napping of the cart? This really should be an IR report and in the end you’d be the one arrested for breaking into a research lab.

*edit* also not once was that engineer trapped, she could always have just moved the tanks out of the way. I took the extra effort to make sure she always had a way out as i didn't want to trap a player by accident. i just moved the tanks in her way. she's the one that kept coming back to take a look at the moving water tanks. it appeared she thought something was going on and was uttly confused.so no, far form chucklefucking

*edit edit* also once again i'd like to draw attention to the forum rules, specifically the one stating "If the infractions described in the complaint have already been dealt with by a staff member in-game, a player complaint will not change the outcome of this. If you feel that the outcome was unjust, you are encouraged to post in the Staff Complaints section of the forums." do i just not understand what this means? or does it mean if someone ahelped it and an admin said the situation is ic and fine then that doesn't mean you should jump to forums.

[Vanagandr]

But let’s get this straightened out. Dude, you pushed someone on the floor and stole their ID to break into a highly secured research lab…over a janitor cart.

Honk.

I notice you weren't going out of your way to return it, either.

Let’s not forget to mention how you used metagame information to know safi was the one that moved the water tanks that where behind her lab. I was doing it through the wall with xray, but magically a fucking janitor knows what’s up?

It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together when a geneticist is talking about distributing superpowers and strange things are going on near Genetics.

You acted like I just ran around doing this all day. No I was in my lab, I only used TK in my lab, moving a few tanks to tease an engineer who appeared to have fun rping something about ghosts. That is a far fucking cry from chucklefucking with powers.

Moving stuff around in the Bar earlier, in the Escape Shuttle...

Why the fuck didn’t you call security over the napping of the cart? This really should be an IR report and in the end you’d be the one arrested for breaking into a research lab.

And tell them what? Oh, people are getting slammed by self-rolling tanks in Genetics maint, and there's one single Geneticist who has been distributing powers to see through walls and hurl objects around with your mind, but clearly there's no connection, mysterious bluespace happenings, carry on.

Besides, there was no point; a little chucklefucking, honk, all good fun.

*edit* also not once was that engineer trapped, she could always have just moved the tanks out of the way. I took the extra effort to make sure she always had a way out as i didn't want to trap a player by accident.

She was trapped when I saw her.

The point is, if you're going to chucklefuck, fine, but don't immediately switch to supersrs DON'T TOUCH MEH AAH SECURITY when someone joins in.

also once again i'd like to draw attention to the forum rules, specifically the one stating "If the infractions described in the complaint have already been dealt with by a staff member in-game, a player complaint will not change the outcome of this. If you feel that the outcome was unjust, you are encouraged to post in the Staff Complaints section of the forums." do i just not understand what this means? or does it mean if someone ahelped it and an admin said the situation is ic and fine then that doesn't mean you should jump to forums.

There was no point in ahelping because no rules were broken, it was just rude.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Furry, why didn't you just give them the cart and avoid that altercation?

[the_furry]

This is gona be my last post on this unless an admin needs more information.

I notice you weren't going out of your way to return it, either.

You didn’t ask, the first thing you did is knock me down and steal my ID

Moving stuff around in the Bar earlier, in the Escape Shuttle...

Wasn’t me and wasn’t me. There were other people with TK, I didn’t once move anything on the shuttle. And I think I moved the cart one square in the bar (oh no I brought the world of chucklefucking to its knees with that one)

And tell them what? Oh, people are getting slammed by self-rolling tanks in Genetics maint, and there's one single Geneticist who has been distributing powers to see through walls and hurl objects around with your mind, but clearly there's no connection, mysterious bluespace happenings, carry on.

Securitys delt with genetics a lot so yes. Also I wasn’t slamming anyone with the self-rolling tanks I hit the engineer twice at the very end. It wasn’t until you came in and without a word knocked me on my ass that I started slamming you (rightfully so) with a locker. I mean if someone walked up to me and deliberately shoved me to the ground with out saying anything I'm gona punch them in the face.

 

She was trapped when I saw her.

If she was actually trapped then it was an accident or you simply saw wrong.

 

The point is, if you're going to chucklefuck, fine, but don't immediately switch to supersrs DON'T TOUCH MEH AAH SECURITY when someone joins in.

My point, I wasn’t chucklefucking once. I moved two tanks a few times and in the end hit an engineer twice in the maintance shaft behind genetics. I hit her after she came back a good three or four times to take a look at the self moving water tanks. She could always have walked away. I didn’t chase her around I didn’t leave my lab, until you came in and fucked with me. only one that was chucklefucking around was you.

 

Furry, why didn't you just give them the cart and avoid that altercation?

I was expecting for him to at least ask for the cart back or call security to get the cart back. He didn’t say a word, right after I grabbed the cart he just knocked me on the ground and started striping my ID so he could break into my lab. /very/ chucklefuck behavior. Had he called security I would have immediately returned it, safi is impulsive but she’s terrified of upsetting security.

[SierraKomodo]

I'm just going to mention that, in this same round, this player was mopping the floor in front of people to make them slip, and doing emotes such as 'honks subtly'. He's essentially complaining about a character 'chucklefucking' when he was 'chucklefucking' himself.

I'm 99% sure this is just jumping on the 'Let's complain about Furry' bandwagon that apparently is still rolling.

So why wasn't this an incident report if it was ahelped and determined to be IC?

[Skull132]

Here is the question to ask, folks.

If the actions of TF, in this case locking two randos in a maintenance shaft by using TK, XRay, and three objects, were indulged in by any other member of the community, would he get a jobban from genetics, or a warning against him? We haven't seen stuff like this for ages, infact TF is just about the only geneticist who still does stuff like this, but if another person was to do this. How would the staff react, and how would the community expect the staff to react like? Fun questions.

Also, a policy to consider. (And please do read the actual reasoning for this policy, as that's the key thing that's applicable here.)

[Vanagandr]

Honking? Once or twice, where I was sure no-one could see it.

Slipping? Anyone who slipped did so because they saw a wet floor sign and ignored it.

Apart, perhaps, from that filthy blood trail in the Bar, but that wasn't exactly subtly done and one of the previous Janitors misplaced the space cleaner.

Brage got slipshoved and tabled, IIRC, but that had nothing to do with me.

Ahelping? Not me.

Locking, not so much. The engineer was locked, but once she was out of that alcove it was just a matter of shoving past moving objects.

It's not necessarily chucklefucking I'm complaining about, as it is the involvement of IC Security.

A spot of chucklefucking here and there is a good time, but calling in Sec just isn't sporting.

I suppose it's that chucklefucking is a mostly OOC diversion, an amusement for the players that doesn't stand up to too much 'screen time'; 'oops, honk, tee-hee, dank maymay' and then slid off-stage before it draws too much attention.

A more effortful example, I suppose, would be a surgeon who emotes accidentally dripping cigarette ash in the patient's incisions, picking his nose mid-operation, misplacing tools and making little fuckups; a 'real' surgeon who did that would be instantly fired, and it's chucklefucking, but he's trying to make things interesting and he's not causing any harm; if it's breaking someone's immersions, an allusion (please stop smoking in Medbay) and a LOOC 'come on man it's funny but can we at least pretend to be professional here' should suffice, instead of instantly phoning Sec and the HoP and IA malpractice demote one million years brig.

That, admittedly, isn't what's involved here - this case is just regular chucklefucking, but the general 'keeping it out of the spotlight' aspect remains.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[EORhappiness]

Comments Withdrawn.

Situation is getting to personal for me to want to be involved.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[EORhappiness]

Comments Withdrawn.

Situation is getting to personal for me to want to be involved.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[Frances]

Furry's actions are his. If he does something bad, then it's on him and should be judged taking into account context and precedents. If there's a hate club against a user, it should be dismantled, but that's a different problem altogether and shouldn't absolve the user of their own wrongdoings (though I think a real hate club is unlikely to exist, considering the people who made complaints against Furry are pretty diverse, mostly unrelated, and tend to have some reasonable ground or justification when they do). Also, two wrongs don't make a right. Skull's point isn't about other geneticists breaking the rules or not, it's about Furry actually receiving special treatment because of the "hate squad"/all the complaints against him. Just treat this as if it were a random player you didn't know. That's how complaints should be addressed, not with "well, this person gets picked on a lot, I'll probably assume that they're blameless without really considering or addressing the actual issues brought up".

In this case, however. If what Furry really did was try to spook a maint engineer who was obviously roleplaying along with the whole thing, then I think it's a bit unfair to punish him for that alone. The rule on genetics was placed to stop rampaging hulks, but it doesn't mean geneticists are a special role on station which is exempt from fun altogether.

[Skull132]

Actually, FFrances, you misunderstood my point. It is very much about other geneticists. Because TF should be given the same freedoms and limitations as other geneticists. If we have a history of jobbanning other geneticists for the same stuff he did, then he, too, will be jobbanned. If we do not have a history of jobbanning other geneticists for this stuff, then he, too, will not be jobbanned. The "Hate squad" has turned into an amazing way to weasel oneself out of trouble. And it's stopping now.

Also, a geneticist constantly doing silly things and then pulling the, "HALP I'M BEING PURSECUTED" act whenever something official is launched against them, is pretty much the definition of being an annoying chucklefuck. Because you can't do shit against them, and you have to suffer their braindead shenanigans.

[Frances]

I've failed to fully explain my idea. Precedent is good, but when you fail to enforce precedent its utility erodes away. People are bringing up the excuse that "other geneticists have done the same thing lately and haven't been punished", which puts us in the trap of "if we fail to enforce it then it shouldn't be a rule". You can decide how much that should be true, but the issue you have with Furry's conduct is one of principle, not one of "other people get punished for it", right?

[Skull132]

Principle is dictated by the precedence, in this case. The principle in question is quite a simple: How much freedom should people with these shit-easy-to-access powers have to have fun on the expense of others. Because, allow me to be frank: genetics can be powergamed within 10 to 20 minutes if you're good. After that, there are no downsides to having the powers, and if you only continuously use them to annoy others, then Houston, we have an issue.

[Frances]

Except you said Furry's fault was to trap an engineer in maint for laughs, while he claims said engineer wasn't trapped at any point, and responded to Furry's actions receptively.

One of the two is using powers at the expense of others for the sole purpose of being annoying.

The other is using powers to create an amusing situation for another player.

Shouldn't the two be dealt with differently? And even if the latter represents an IC fault, shouldn't it be met with an incident report, rather than admin action?

[the_furry]

Well this should settle it then, if we go with skulls perspective then I should not be issued any warning or job ban, as no geneticist has been giving a warning for what I was doing. Bear in mind we’re not talking about hulking out or spamming tk to endless levels of annoyance at the expense of others. I’ve already detailed the exact use of TK I did and it is some of the most basic thing you can do with TK.

If we go with Frances perspective, again I should not be given any warning. As the intent was to produce roleplay with an engineer with TK, as she said geneticists are allowed to have some fun.

If you really want to give me a warning then you’re better off simply removing TK from genetics all together or stating in the rules that TK is not to be used in game since at this point if I receive a warning for merely doing minor actions with it; there would be nothing a geneticist can do with TK safely without getting some kind of reprimand.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

The funny thing is, TF, I haven't actually looked at our list of genetics jobbans. My quote, this one:

We haven't seen stuff like this for ages, infact TF is just about the only geneticist who still does stuff like this

 

Is actually meant to imply that most of them are probably jobbanned. Of course I will confirm this before a decision is passed.

[the_furry]

The funny thing is, TF, I haven't actually looked at our list of genetics jobbans. My quote, this one:

We haven't seen stuff like this for ages, infact TF is just about the only geneticist who still does stuff like this

 

Is actually meant to imply that most of them are probably jobbanned. Of course I will confirm this before a decision is passed.

are you not listening? I've already detailed the use of Tk and it was not being used merely at the expense of others. as you insist on putting it. hell it was hardly being used at all. If your job banning anyone that uses the fucking power why do you have it in there in the first place?

[Skull132]

I would advise you to go calm down.

I was there for the round, so I tracked your involvement in it. However, myself and the admins will go over this issue once we have time. As you may have noticed by reading the announcements, free time is something we're a little pressed for right now.

[Eliot Clef]

Heyo.

I was the player who ended up ahelping this when it started to blow up in-round, because I had in fact observed The_Furry smacking (and trapping) an engineer (and later, the Janitor) in maintenance with a fuel tank and a water tank. I wasn't really sure if it was actually a problem but wanted it known that there was a witness in case it turned into an issue.

So yeah, Safiya was in fact doing that. I wasn't following the Janitor before and after that, and wasn't really watching anything in particular at the time. On a personal level, I kiiiiind of think you shouldn't do this because it's exactly what makes people hate you as a Geneticist even if it is allowed. But I agreed (and still do) with Skull132 during our conversation at the time that if somebody can't mess around a little bit with telekinesis there's not really a whole lot of fun to be had in Genetics.

(Stealing the Janitor's cart is different from temporarily boxing somebody in with fuel/water tanks, though.)

EDIT: I do feel like this probably bears mentioning, though: Social norms relating to the usage of Genetics are a lot different from the actual rules relating to Genetics. A Geneticist who does anything that a Geneticist would consider to be fun is, almost certainly, going to be automatically reviled by a segment of the population solely because they're a Geneticist, even if they do absolutely nothing deliberately annoying to people specifically.

I experienced this myself in my brief stint as a Geneticist, even though I spent my time performing experiments, writing down experiment results, etc. A vocal portion of this server simply hates genetics powers as a default, and whenever they come into contact with them will start demanding they get removed. See: EvilBrage's thread in response to this round.

[the_furry]

Heyo.

I was the player who ended up ahelping this when it started to blow up in-round, because I had in fact observed The_Furry smacking (and trapping) an engineer (and later, the Janitor) in maintenance with a fuel tank and a water tank. I wasn't really sure if it was actually a problem but wanted it known that there was a witness in case it turned into an issue. (Stealing the Janitor's cart is different from temporarily boxing somebody in with fuel/water tanks, though.)

I do want to keep it in perspective, I only hit the engineer twice after they came back several times to observe the water tanks. She would walk away and about five mins later come back and stand in the matinance hall watching the tanks till I moved the tanks. The janitor cart was in retaliation of the player coming in without a word splashing me with water and pushing me onto the floor. If the engineer was every truly traped then that was an honest mistake and it wouldn’t have lasted long.

 

EDIT: I do feel like this probably bears mentioning, though: Social norms relating to the usage of Genetics are a lot different from the actual rules relating to Genetics. A Geneticist who does anything that a Geneticist would consider to be fun is, almost certainly, going to be automatically reviled by a segment of the population solely because they're a Geneticist, even if they do absolutely nothing deliberately annoying to people specifically.

I think that’s exactly what’s going on here.

I mean if this is gona be a thing can I submit a counter complaint about the janitor coming in and flooring me with no Rp then stealing my ID to break into a lab? Should I take the time to write up that ooc complaint? (why couldn’t this have been handled by DO’s do they even exsist?

[Gollee]

Yes, we do.

Assuming all testimony in here is accurate, you would both likely be severely punished for unprofessional behaviour and misuse of Nanotrasen property to accentuate a petty feud.

[hivefleetchicken]

I'd originally liked to say that both parties need to back down for a moment and think about where they both were wrong, but...

I've never seen Safiya while in a genetics role without powers. It's all TF does. They show up, get powers, and throw lockers at people. I've been put into critical and witnessed Safiya practically kill an IA agent during an emergency by throwing lockers into people with Rafee next to them. They don't respect anyone, or anything, and only indulge in taking pictures of naked people in the showers, jumping around like a child, and hitting people with lockers silently and performing emotes of "me giggles" like a cutesie anime girl like its some joke while the person is literally fucking dying.

Why is TF possibly being called out for their actions more than others? Hm. Well, in my opinion, this complaint shows behavior worthy of a complaint. And all the other complaints do too. I think it's a dumb excuse to excuse TF's behavior as something that's only being brought up because of some grudge. Are you so self-centered that you can't notice this behavior is shut behavior, and every incident brought up is still deserving of a complaint.

But hmmmm. Maybe they are being called out for every incident, and others aren't being called out as much. That's probably because they're a repeat offender who literally doesn't respect anyone and regards everyone else as wrong and refuses to fix their own self. That's sub-par for player quality, and thus they probably SHOULD be called out for the times they cause shit to document how undeserving of some privileges this player is.

[MagnificentMelkior]

I don't think that accusations in and of themselves should be in any way indicative of guilt. If TF has 1000 complaints against him before this and successfully defended himself every time, then it wouldn't matter. Any other position violates the principles of Anglo-saxon justice upon which most successful societies base their laws. So if you think TF should fry for this, please focus on this specific instance. I don't want to see a precedent of accusations = guilt established here.