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moltenkore

[Answered] Tajaran Sexuality Views Flipped

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Recently with the new Kingdom update in the Tajara lore, I noticed that their views on same gender relationships has suddenly flipped.


http://aurorastation.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tajara&diff=3330&oldid=3302 - second paragraph.


I was wondering why they suddenly went from "Homosexuality amongst Tajaran is as a majority a non-issue" to "Homosexuality amongst Tajaran is looked down on and treated as a deviancy".


It is quite a major change in their views and it will probably effect quite a few Tajara players.

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Yeah.. That's a very massive change, considering how I have two tajaran characters that are in same-sex relationships in one form or another (One isn't as public about it).

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Not really much of a major change. It just means if your Tajara is gay back on Ahdomai, they'll probably be treated like they are in certain parts of America now.


Of course, this change means little, as most of the Tajara players currently won't bother treating gay cats any differently. However, I like the revision.

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It's actually kind of gonna hurt at least two of my characters. One of them is a very traditional religion Tajara, who happens to be homosexual, so now that throw a little kink in his story, which I /GUESS/ could be overlooked. Theres also my Cat Doge, who is semi-openly homosexual.

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While it might be unfortunate for some players. The "Homosexuality is openly accepted by everyone. No one has a problem with it" thing just kinda seemed forced. It really just didn't fit with the traditionalism of the Tajaran (Though ik there's been a recent surge of pseudo-communism kinda) and I honestly just think it added to the "Fucking Furries" thing that some people have against Tajarans.


But yeah, we've established that most Tajarans on the station aren't exactly traditional. So I doubt this will actually affect much ICly.


Also I'm editing the title to better fit the thing being discussed

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If anything I thought it made much more sense. A people with a history of being repressed and not treated as equals for superficial reasons, wouldn't turn and treat others like they were treated, for superficial reasons. Thats basically what it used to say, now it says because they've been repressed, they now hate homosexuality and the Zhan are seen as stupid and aggressive? I mean, they pray to the Suns, and some deity made of clay or something, so I doubt their religion says 'no fagooos,' so what reason do they actually have to hate homosexuality all of a sudden? It feels a lot more forced than when homosexuality was accepted openly.


Actually, just looked it up after writing this, every religion mentioned in the wiki says they preach unity and understanding, so even the religions the species follow seem to contradict the recent changes. So they suddenly hate gays, and the Zhan, but every major religion is based around unity, understanding, and the betterment of the Tajaran people?

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Guest

I don't see an issue with this. It doesn't actually outright say "homosex is banned get out with homosex cats", it really just mentions that homosexual tajarans are looked down upon more than by other members of the Tajaran society as a whole.


Could lead to interesting RP, no?

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I honestly don't understand quite well why this was changed all of a sudden. We have developed our characters having into account what the lore said about homosexual relationships. My character was grown in Ahdomai and lived most of his life there. Wouldn't mind this change if it was introduced progressively, but it's the sudden change that I don't like. It could maybe be changed to say that the society has developed the thing in the last few months due to recent events that's up to you to create? Basically, to justify the change ICly.


My character is homosexual and it's currently on a homosexual relationship with another Tajara on the station. He wouldn't be as he is if the case was that the society didn't accept him for being homosexual. Also, Tajara is still a communist-inclined specie, which I think would also define how they see homosexuality. Left-wing political ideas are way more open-minded that their counterparts, so I can't see why Tajara aren't open-minded about sexuality anymore.

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He wouldn't be as he is if the case was that the society didn't accept him for being homosexual.

 

Why? As it is now, I know gay people that come from highly religious christian families, and they're still gay. Just because the lore was changed, doesn't mean "oh now there can be no gay cats." It just means that being open around other Tajara risks ridicule, which, won't really be a problem since as it stands, most of our Tajara players ignore these parts of the lore anyway.

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He wouldn't be as he is if the case was that the society didn't accept him for being homosexual.

 

Why? As it is now, I know gay people that come from highly religious christian families, and they're still gay. Just because the lore was changed, doesn't mean "oh now there can be no gay cats." It just means that being open around other Tajara risks ridicule, which, won't really be a problem since as it stands, most of our Tajara players ignore these parts of the lore anyway.

 

Not like I'm gonna change it now, but due to the personality I was thinking for him initially, which is very passive, he wouldn't be gay now, that's what I meant with that.

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Wow I really thought we had more than 24 hours to figure out how to put across the change of status without sounding ham-fisted. An entire sticky going "gay is not ok" would have been hilariously misdirected and a news article about a lynching or whatever would have just been depressing.


The decision was made yesterday to reword that specific paragraph, at my decision, after Sue and I were working out more tweaks on the page. Since Sue has returned from her haitus we've been working on anchoring in the Tajaran in our 'living universe' shtick, so I've been giving them more attention to fine tune them in these areas.


It did not make sense that this repressive, strife-riddled society that has a great emphasis on lineage and poppin' out babies, and otherwise fitting a vibe of a communist dystopia, to be bizarrely liberal and open to homosexuality, especially in a society already dealing with persecution, discrimination, and extremely conservative culture. It's like, what?


This doesn't mean you can't be a gay catbeast. It just means that this aspect of a person isn't something they can openly flaunt and feel safe doing so in the culture of mainstream Adhomai. You don't suddenly decide to stop being gay just because society doesn't like it. That's silly. Gay isn't a choice. One day you just wake up with a sudden appreciation for summer shorts and get emotional over Adelle's songs.


I understand this change is rather sudden and inconvenient; I was still planning on putting it across, but no matter how we did it, the fact is this is quite a big change and affects characters. However, it still better brings the mainstream aesthetic and culture of Adhomai to the spotlight and allows that aspect of the society to impact these characters in negative ways (positive for rp). You might not be inbred or a filthy Zhan, but you touched a pp once so we're going to shell your house anyway.

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If anything I thought it made much more sense. A people with a history of being repressed and not treated as equals for superficial reasons, wouldn't turn and treat others like they were treated, for superficial reasons. Thats basically what it used to say, now it says because they've been repressed, they now hate homosexuality and the Zhan are seen as stupid and aggressive? I mean, they pray to the Suns, and some deity made of clay or something, so I doubt their religion says 'no fagooos,' so what reason do they actually have to hate homosexuality all of a sudden? It feels a lot more forced than when homosexuality was accepted openly.


Actually, just looked it up after writing this, every religion mentioned in the wiki says they preach unity and understanding, so even the religions the species follow seem to contradict the recent changes. So they suddenly hate gays, and the Zhan, but every major religion is based around unity, understanding, and the betterment of the Tajaran people?

 

Oh my sweet summer child.

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A species whose ideals land in a family-centric society, with a history of ill-treatment and oppression, would probably find homosexuals (choosing to forsake the ability to have children and continue their lineage) deviant. Tajara are all about the family, mang. Imagine being a gay fucking catbeast, and knowing you're going to let down your family because they're expecting you to do something great, and continue the bloodline. Would you really want to have that weight and guilt on your shoulders?


EDIT: By point of 'choosing to be gay' thing I presented, my wording is off. I meant it in the vein as somebody can choose to be gay or straight, as in living out the adverse of how they are, in order to appease their family, and such. Not as in "hurr you choose to be gay" type thing. I need to english better.

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So I’m pretty impartial to the actual decision. I do think it’s a dumb move considering how it will effect a large population of the Tajaras players and it’s implemented in poor taste. But other than that I don’t really care.


However, this makes for extremely boring Lore. Why? Because you have the chance to create lore for an entirely unique and distinct culture, and you can pull from cultures that span the entirety of history or create your own from parts of others yet with the vast amount of options available to you, what do you make? A boring single faceted communist conservative state; basically Russia circa 1900’s.

 

It did not make sense that this repressive, strife-riddled society that has a great emphasis on lineage and poppin' out babies, and otherwise fitting a vibe of a communist dystopia, to be bizarrely liberal and open to homosexuality, especially in a society already dealing with persecution, discrimination, and extremely conservative culture. It's like, what?

 

Is your imagination so limited that you can’t come up with an explanation as to why there would be exceptions in a generally conservative culture? Being nothing but conservative makes this culture lack interesting depth which makes it less realistic. It’s actually pretty standard for cultures to be conservative in one avenue and liberal in another; even if overall the culture is mostly conservative. Take America, a country that holds paradoxical stances on nudity. Show one side boob on prime time TV and your show can be pulled, yet on magazine stands everywhere complete nudity is almost common place. On one hand breast feeding is viewed as controversial and on the other more revealing scant clothing is entirely normal (especially in the entertainment sector). On the issues of nudity America can be said to be very liberal at times and then surprisingly conservative in other instances. And in the example of the united states what is seemingly paradoxical actually has intent and meaning behind it; for example in womens/sociological studies there is comprehensive evidence that the country still pushes traditional gender roles with many double standards in favor of the male population. Women are socialized to feel inadequate for using minimal clothing (ie. slut shaming) and inadequate for being too modest (ie. Prude, boring). Both cases are possible because women are objectified under a male gaze considered to be the operational social standard. You see? Sociality is more complex than just “they are conservative”. Being conservative is just one stance a society can take on one issue. Good writing would reflect reality more closely by exploring the possibilities beyond a one faceted, one note, simplified depiction of society. Essentially, good writing goes beyond what you have written; which is boring to say the least but uninspired, reductive, amateurish and dull if I wanted to be less forgiving. :)


Furthermore, during span of the Roman Empire the romans were heavily fascist, nationalistic, militaristic and yet sex and homosexuality was socially accepted as common place. To give another example in feudal Japan and in the military class (ie samurai) Bushido code [which was strictly followed] glorified same sex relationships as the purest form of love and encouraged homosexuality; that is the same feudal japan who was extremely conservative, xenophobic, hierarchical, strictly ritualistic and highly resilient to social reform. My point, which hopefully you are able to grasp, is that societies are complex phenomena that employ a myriad of explicit/implicit norms that come to exist for several unique reasons. So while it is true that societies can be like the one you’ve written, such a society is by no means the median permutation available of all the different ways that a society can develop, let alone a common development.


The only reason your saying it doesn’t make sense for the Tajara culture to accept a few liberal notions is because you either incapable or unwilling to realize a more realistic or interesting lore. The monotone in your writing can be summed up simply by saying “think Russia”. Bravo. 10/10

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-Snip-

 

While I don't necessarily agree with the critisism you give to the lore developers and the more itself, I agree with all the facts that you expose here. Being tradicional does not need to be linked with not being tolerant with homosexuality. (Also, awesome facts and writing).


I hope this whole thread serves as a incentive for the lore admins to revise and rewrite that part of the more, as I think the lore should serve the community's interests and not the other way round. From what I can see here, most of the Tajara whitelistees don't really like the change.

Edited by Guest

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Guest

This is the first time I've read that Bushido promoted homosexuality, but I doubt that it involved sticking your dick into other men anyway. Even the 'homosexual' practices of Greeks were more a formality than actual sexual relationships. Basically, younger men were bound to older men for tutoring and some of the stuff they did was fucking weird and disgusting, but any actual homosexual relationships weren't considered, at the very least, normal.


I disagree with most people that call IRL cultural examples to prove their points. It would be okay if we were making a new human culture, but those aren't humans. It's been somewhat agreed that homosexuality is actually genetic in humans, a natural behavior, as observed in chimps or stuff. Homosexuality had its usage in a chimp community. I think it basically stopped much younger, weaker males from being killed by older, stronger more agressive ones by basically removing them from competition. How did such a gene get carried over? Because a fifth, homosexual, feminized male in a clan better than a hetero, musculine dead male in a clan. The genes are still carried over through his brothers. And if he's really needed to, the male can still reproduce. Mind you, I have no clue if lesbian chimps are a thing, or how it helps, but I guess it has something to do with enjoying sex without being fertilized. Happier females.


Now, these are space cats. They are even primates. What's their reproduction rate? Socio-biological relations? Do they pair for life (because chimps don't, interestingly enough)? Do they have prides? All of these are questions you need to ask yourself before you even begin to claim that there are homosexual Tajarans.


Edit: I am, of course, refering to the ancestors of Tajaran. As humans, Taj are self-aware and are capable of acting 'unnaturally', but as our motivations stem from our inborn needs and reflexes, so should theirs. If not, I give up.

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Guest

>conservative cultures are uninteresting to me, you are dumb and you should be making it more liberal


hwat

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>conservative cultures are uninteresting to me, you are dumb and you should be making it more liberal


hwat

You missed my point entirely … but it’s ok don’t worry, no one is surprised :P

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>conservative cultures are uninteresting to me, you are dumb and you should be making it more liberal


hwat

You missed my point entirely … but it’s ok don’t worry, no one is surprised :P

 

That's basically what your point boiled down to.


I like this change, considering how conservative and traditional Tajarans are. Not that it matters though, considering that the majority of Tajarans who are straight will be the Super Social Justice Warrior type and love all Tajarans, lore be damned in favor of edginess and not hurting people's feelings.

Edited by Guest

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TL:DR, players that play gay cats are now mad because something exists in lore that they'll never actually have to deal with because the players of gay cats won't ever discriminate or make fun of them ICly due to the fact they too play gay cats.

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As someone who doesn't actively read the lore, but instead deals with it through the virtue of dealing with character complaints around the lore, I was already under the impression that whatever a Tajaran was into, sexually, was a private matter due to their conservative holdings. So it isn't a stretch to see why non-heterosexual relationships would be seen as unwanted.


What's also interesting is that everyone who seems to be fine with this thing is able to actually reference points of the Tajaran culture and lore in order to explain the point. The rest are failing to do this, and instead fall back on their personal perception of how it should be. As such, I am left to believe that the change is completely fine, and makes the Tajaran lore more cohesive.


Also, to TF. Your point is mostly misplaced, I find. The fact that Tajaran, Unathi, and Skrell exist as species pretty much railroads us into mirroring certain aspects of humanity to a greater or smaller degree, and amplifying those aspects to give the species an identity. I consider this a flaw in the general design of the species in question. The only real way to solve it would be to remove all three, but I don't expect that debate to end well.

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It may be a radical notion and forgive me for making it, but despite what particular communities may have lead you to believe, it is actually possible to create a character in which their sexuality is not the absolute sum of their existence.


Skull is correct, partially, even if he's dumb. The races take areas of human culture as a foundation to mirror and build their identity around it, even if they subvert it. That's pretty much the standard in making alien races in most science fantasy, and we especially need to keep in mind the genre and audience we're writing for here.

 

What's also interesting is that everyone who seems to be fine with this thing is able to actually reference points of the Tajaran culture and lore in order to explain the point. The rest are failing to do this, and instead fall back on their personal perception of how it should be. As such, I am left to believe that the change is completely fine, and makes the Tajaran lore more cohesive.

 

The points The_Furry made boiled down to personally not liking conservative societies and wanting it to be different. Having different opinions is ok.


Now because I deal with Unathi directly I can use them for analogies. Unathi society is a good example here. I haven't ever had to explicitly spell out these things because Unathi characters have been a reflection of the culture they're raised in, even if they subvert the tropes and baseline expectations. I think part of this is my consistent doctrine of "You can do it, but you need to accept the consequences." Mostly resulting in their unathi being outcasts, and I'm pretty pleased that the majority of the unathi characters gossip and consider outcasts to be degenerates to varying degrees. Ourean Unathi are a bit more liberal, but as a whole the cohesive Unathi aesthetic is still pretty much a consistent reflection of the lizard's culture, both in the mainstream and in the underground communities or the degenerates.


The Tajaran have the biggest bizarre hiccups here. A lot of Tajaran on the station try to be cutsie saying things like "oh noes!" and call guns "pew pew guns", which I've literally seen happen, usually moments before 2 Tajara sit next to one another then mrowl flirtatious advances. There's no consistency between Tajara on station in the majority and the Tajara in the society they're meant to be from. Being defined entirely by your love of pp on your pp is a major symptom of this, especially when there's no way to tell that it's deviant from the norm or not a reflection of the whole society. Having this be established to be frowned on and entirely against the culture these Tajara are embedded in will provide infinitely more interesting and dynamic characters. Even establishing that the Tajara on Aurora are the unwanted scraps or degenerates of Tajaran society leads to interest, like when the big evil government catches up with you on-station.


I mean, these are 1920's steampunk cats who are supposed to call women "dames" or "Janes" and wear fancy suits and bowler caps, not walking mascots of Furaffinity.

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As another note for consideration, the idea that having been oppressed in the past suddenly makes an entire people more ambivalent towards sexuality is flat out wrong, unfortunately. I live in Estonia, a country which has only enjoyed its freedom for a relatively scant 2.something decades. Before that, the USSR was a thing, then the Germans (shortly), then the Russian Federation, then a myriad of other nations to include the Swedes, Danes, whoever. Bottom line is: we're a culture that you folks are referencing. While it is true that while judging people, we tend to judge them based on their work (with a good majority of our national songs, hymns, poems, etcetera centering around agrarian work), we can also be very homophobic and even racist. Examples of this are the protests that were held last year around a set of laws making marriage for homosexual couples a legally set thing, and the racism and bile that's being spouted over the refugee crisis.


So, no, having been oppressed does not make a culture more open minded towards sexuality, or any other aspect of humanity upon which we could potentially discriminate you. Please stop saying that it does.

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Points in Skull's post.


-Russia


Russia has gone through how many fucking revolutions, and is in fact what we've modeled Ahdomai after. Currently Russia has some of the worst homosexuality laws other than middle eastern theocracies. Any depictions of homosexual relationships are banned in Russia, so how exactly is saying 'being oppressed means we won't oppress' correct at all?

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