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[Answered] Tajaran Sexuality Views Flipped


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The points The_Furry made boiled down to personally not liking conservative societies and wanting it to be different. Having different opinions is ok.

Apparently nothing of depth can be said here without it going over your head. Your the lore writer so let me dumb it down just for you. I don’t care that it’s conservative. I’m remarking on how boring a single-faceted and flat culture is. If the culture was entirely liberal and that’s all it was then from a lore perspective that culture is still boring as fuck, and easily ignorable. So this is not conservative vs liberal. I’m remarking that this is single-faceted, uninspired, and boring. Probably why so many tajara ignore the lore, there is no substance to it but a one faced gimmick (i.e. bad writing). The fact that I have to dumb down it down for you is what’s disappointing.


@delta

Did you get it now? or should I dumb it down again baby?

If our lore is so terrible, boring, ignorable, uninspired and generally bad writing, could you please point the devs in the right direction? Provide an example of the 'good writing' in this 'conservative vs liberal' situation? Because, now, you're just calling the devs and their lore 'bad', you're free to get involved and make suggestions, as we're a community.



I, personally, don't see a reason Adhomai, that's still engulfed in a civil war, wouldn't be pro-family (that's anti-gay, I guess?). If I were any goverment, I would encourage my citizens to start families and make kids, since adult males are dying at the battlefront. Being gay-ok just does not make any sense. But, that's just after a quick look at the lore,I didn't actually read it.

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Apparently nothing of depth can be said here without it going over your head. Your the lore writer so let me dumb it down just for you. I don’t care that it’s conservative. I’m remarking on how boring a single-faceted and flat culture is. If the culture was entirely liberal and that’s all it was then from a lore perspective that culture is still boring as fuck, and easily ignorable. So this is not conservative vs liberal. I’m remarking that this is single-faceted, uninspired, and boring. Probably why so many tajara ignore the lore, there is no substance to it but a one faced gimmick (i.e. bad writing). The fact that I have to dumb down it down for you is what’s disappointing.


@delta

Did you get it now? or should I dumb it down again baby? :)

 

here is my revision:


"tajaran come in all rainbow of colors and prefer pronouns xe/xir/xey unless they tell you what they identify as. it is bad form to comment on the multitude of sexual fluids sticking to tajaran fur, because their inter-gender-species yiff orgies are part of their culture, you cisgendered privileged normie fursecutor"


edit: I'm not allowed to be snippy anymore. Let me rephrase;


If you're so adamant that Tajaran lore is so 'single-faceted' and 'boring', please explain to me in detail why you think so. Make some suggestions! They're not an entirely conservative culture. Women aren't oppressed to the point where they are on Moghes. I don't even understand how you can make that argument, when Unathi lore is 'if you're a degenerate, you get beheaded' if you're gay, or you sleep with aliens, or anything along those lines. I mean - you call it single-faceted, I call it cohesive. An extremely oppressive, conservative government model wouldn't racially discriminate against cats with dark fur and then go 'but touching pps to other pps is a-ok guys'.


It just makes sense.

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Right so, ignoring the cluster**** of posts above...


The main issue I have is that it went from one side of the fence to the other without word or warning; Not everyone checks the wiki on a regular basis (Hell, I don't normally look at it except as a refresher for new characters or something I'm not 100% sure about). While I do have two characters in homosexual relationships, one of them you'd probably never know (Kylan Lo'Rah and Naiim Yar'kiy). The other one is a bit more open/obvious about it, particularly due to being married (Rasine and Jo'Zah). The change doesn't really affect any of my existing characters any, but I can see how it could have affected other people's characters if they built them around a previous note saying homosexuality was openly accepted. It's similar to how I built Miraj Zi'Ad around the lore saying that tajara were discriminated against, treated basically like modern day mexican workers, weren't considered intelligent, etc etc. And then none of that actually holds any bearing or effect, rendering all of that backstory/effort basically useless/inapplicable.

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Right so, ignoring the cluster**** of posts above...


The main issue I have is that it went from one side of the fence to the other without word or warning; Not everyone checks the wiki on a regular basis (Hell, I don't normally look at it except as a refresher for new characters or something I'm not 100% sure about). While I do have two characters in homosexual relationships, one of them you'd probably never know (Kylan Lo'Rah and Naiim Yar'kiy). The other one is a bit more open/obvious about it, particularly due to being married (Rasine and Jo'Zah). The change doesn't really affect any of my existing characters any, but I can see how it could have affected other people's characters if they built them around a previous note saying homosexuality was openly accepted. It's similar to how I built Miraj Zi'Ad around the lore saying that tajara were discriminated against, treated basically like modern day mexican workers, weren't considered intelligent, etc etc. And then none of that actually holds any bearing or effect, rendering all of that backstory/effort basically useless/inapplicable.

 

I do not see how it renders the backstory useless, it just adds another vision to something that already happened. As people told several times before in the same thread and another, xenos are allowed to be deviants and go against their cultural norms, still their players, oocly, should be fine with possible discriminations or icly repercussions.

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Why don't we... like, just remove gay and trans tajaran being a possibility. This would kinda solve your issues.

 

That's the fucking thing that people don't get. This change does not stop you from playing those Tajarans. It simply clarifies what the Tajaran culture in general thinks of such matters. Seriously.


Understand this. Because the players take extreme fucking liberty with lore, the lore has adjusted to be very strict. The lore adds the strict standard, and the players add the abnormal cases. (Though, this isn't even strict. Please quote me a line where it says, implies, or otherwise commands that players are not allowed to play non-heterosexual Tajarans.)

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

The_Furry you already apologized to me once in a PM for being insulting and rude when I told you to treat me like an adult and have mutual respect when we have disagreements, and immediately after, that PM and now, you're going back to insults and personal attacks. You are consistently hostile and fill your posts with baiting. So from now on, your opinions are completely irrelevant. I have no interest in engaging someone so condescending in any form of conversation or debate. I'd have a better, more intellectually stimulating experience attending a Donald Trump rally.


To everyone actually providing valid worries and criticism,


Yes, the change was rather hasty! As I said in the beginning, I thought I had more than 24 hours to actually explain the change.


It affects my last remaining Tajaran, as well. I actually retconned his gay meowiage to better coincide with this change before it was officialized on the wiki - I admit though, originally I married him off just to calm down all the people who would not lay off their THIRST.


And to repeat,

You can still be a gay Tajaran.

You can still be open about it, probably.

This probably won't result in your character being lynched the moment they look at a pp.

More traditional Tajara now have a reason to have conflict with this large subculture of Tajara on station.

Tajara lore visitors can now be ominous affairs for gaycats.


If this actually severely affects your character to the point that you struggle to even contemplate playing them... Then I don't really know what to do there for you, because that probably means that their casual sexuality is the foundation and sum of their entire character.

 

Why don't we... like, just remove gay and trans tajaran being a possibility. This would kinda solve your issues.

 

that's dumb, ok?

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I see you haven't glanced through my previous post. If you haven't, I won't bother repeating myself.


My comment was more so ironic than anything else because I'm fully aware how little shit the players, especially those that tend to make snowflakes, give about the lore. But to explain the joke, removing gay tajaran does solve the issue of anti-gay bigotry, because there are none. Homosexual acts can simply be unheard of on Adhomai, or something that's not taboo, but simply fucking dumb. As a result, any gay cats that do exist are simply a result of influence from the multi-cultural, cosmopolitan, liberal society of humans.

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The points The_Furry made boiled down to personally not liking conservative societies and wanting it to be different. Having different opinions is ok.

Apparently nothing of depth can be said here without it going over your head. Your the lore writer so let me dumb it down just for you. I don’t care that it’s conservative. I’m remarking on how boring a single-faceted and flat culture is. If the culture was entirely liberal and that’s all it was then from a lore perspective that culture is still boring as fuck, and easily ignorable. So this is not conservative vs liberal. I’m remarking that this is single-faceted, uninspired, and boring. Probably why so many tajara ignore the lore, there is no substance to it but a one faced gimmick (i.e. bad writing). The fact that I have to dumb down it down for you is what’s disappointing.


@delta

Did you get it now? or should I dumb it down again baby?

If our lore is so terrible, boring, ignorable, uninspired and generally bad writing, could you please point the devs in the right direction? Provide an example of the 'good writing' in this 'conservative vs liberal' situation? Because, now, you're just calling the devs and their lore 'bad', you're free to get involved and make suggestions, as we're a community.



I, personally, don't see a reason Adhomai, that's still engulfed in a civil war, wouldn't be pro-family (that's anti-gay, I guess?). If I were any goverment, I would encourage my citizens to start families and make kids, since adult males are dying at the battlefront. Being gay-ok just does not make any sense. But, that's just after a quick look at the lore,I didn't actually read it.

 

Dreamix I did provide examples to attempt to point the lore in the right direction. If you read my op I gave several examples of real cultures that have depth to their understanding. But it was ignored and instead everyone just went with their simplified and untrue narrative that I’m just complaining about the tajara being conservative.


The thing is, it /can/ be explained that homosexuality is not accepted. It can also be explained that it’s an exception to the normally conservative culture (I provided several examples of this happening in real life, so if you still think it doesn't make sense please refer to the real examples I provided). My biggest complaint is that the culture is so monotone that they are simple to understand. The entirety of the culture can be summed up with “they are conservative”. That’s what’s boring. If you can sum up the entirety of any culture in one sentence it makes for extremely plain lore. The same would be true if you could sum up the entire culture with the line “they are all really liberal.”


@jackboot

Insulted you? I’ve criticized your work and the lore that is being set. If you can’t take criticism for the lore your setting perhaps you shouldn’t be creating lore. I find your comment about starting to ignore me rich; you mean to say you weren’t ignoring me already? Then how did you miss my points entirely? #askingtherealquestions

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Amuse me, TF. And see if you're able to track what I've been tracking for years, now.


People take extreme liberty with lore, aye? We were able to gather enough points to prove that in the "You vs the Lore Team" shit that went down about half a year ago. Your character was atypical as far as the written lore eas concerned. This is an objective assessment.


Now, what do we do with this assessment? Do we just batten down our hatches and start chewing out people and players who stray from the lore as it's written, ooor...? Or do we roll with it, and play with it. A lot of the times, the players prefer simpler solutions. Freedom, liberal views. Okay, that's fine.


But don't you think it'd be a little dull if we just went along with it?


What you point out is a lack of room for depth in the lore. I say, this depth is added by the players playing atypical characters. (Obviously within reason.)


Let's use the IPCs as an example. AIs in our universe have done completely horrible fucking shit. And are thus, as far as majority of the lore goes, despised. But on station, it's a complete opposite situation. Syths are personalized as humans would be. Let's say I wanted to play a character who hates synths. Were the lore a 1:1 representation of player actions, I would literally have no excuse to ICly hate synths. But, hey, I do! And I can confront IPC players with it,and create conflict, and thus RP!


That's the present lore-player relationship I see. It's been like this for a shit long time, and despite a few mistakes, it's worked.

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Amuse me, TF. And see if you're able to track what I've been tracking for years, now.


People take extreme liberty with lore, aye? We were able to gather enough points to prove that in the "You vs the Lore Team" shit that went down about half a year ago. Your character was atypical as far as the written lore eas concerned. This is an objective assessment.


Now, what do we do with this assessment? Do we just batten down our hatches and start chewing out people and players who stray from the lore as it's written, ooor...? Or do we roll with it, and play with it. A lot of the times, the players prefer simpler solutions. Freedom, liberal views. Okay, that's fine.


But don't you think it'd be a little dull if we just went along with it?


What you point out is a lack of room for depth in the lore. I say, this depth is added by the players playing atypical characters. (Obviously within reason.)


Let's use the IPCs as an example. AIs in our universe have done completely horrible fucking shit. And are thus, as far as majority of the lore goes, despised. But on station, it's a complete opposite situation. Syths are personalized as humans would be. Let's say I wanted to play a character who hates synths. Were the lore a 1:1 representation of player actions, I would literally have no excuse to ICly hate synths. But, hey, I do! And I can confront IPC players with it,and create conflict, and thus RP!


That's the present lore-player relationship I see. It's been like this for a shit long time, and despite a few mistakes, it's worked.

 

This.


What happens on station is not a 100% representation of the wider universe of Aurora. Just because the people at your job are tolerant of the gay cats, albino lizards and damn synths, it doesn't mean wider society is.

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So I’m pretty impartial to the actual decision. I do think it’s a dumb move considering how it will effect a large population of the Tajaras players and it’s implemented in poor taste. But other than that I don’t really care.


However, this makes for extremely boring Lore. Why? Because you have the chance to create lore for an entirely unique and distinct culture, and you can pull from cultures that span the entirety of history or create your own from parts of others yet with the vast amount of options available to you, what do you make? A boring single faceted communist conservative state; basically Russia circa 1900’s.

 

It did not make sense that this repressive, strife-riddled society that has a great emphasis on lineage and poppin' out babies, and otherwise fitting a vibe of a communist dystopia, to be bizarrely liberal and open to homosexuality, especially in a society already dealing with persecution, discrimination, and extremely conservative culture. It's like, what?

 

Is your imagination so limited that you can’t come up with an explanation as to why there would be exceptions in a generally conservative culture? Being nothing but conservative makes this culture lack interesting depth which makes it less realistic. It’s actually pretty standard for cultures to be conservative in one avenue and liberal in another; even if overall the culture is mostly conservative. Take America, a country that holds paradoxical stances on nudity. Show one side boob on prime time TV and your show can be pulled, yet on magazine stands everywhere complete nudity is almost common place. On one hand breast feeding is viewed as controversial and on the other more revealing scant clothing is entirely normal (especially in the entertainment sector). On the issues of nudity America can be said to be very liberal at times and then surprisingly conservative in other instances. And in the example of the united states what is seemingly paradoxical actually has intent and meaning behind it; for example in womens/sociological studies there is comprehensive evidence that the country still pushes traditional gender roles with many double standards in favor of the male population. Women are socialized to feel inadequate for using minimal clothing (ie. slut shaming) and inadequate for being too modest (ie. Prude, boring). Both cases are possible because women are objectified under a male gaze considered to be the operational social standard. You see? Sociality is more complex than just “they are conservative”. Being conservative is just one stance a society can take on one issue. Good writing would reflect reality more closely by exploring the possibilities beyond a one faceted, one note, simplified depiction of society. Essentially, good writing goes beyond what you have written; which is boring to say the least but uninspired, reductive, amateurish and dull if I wanted to be less forgiving. :)


Furthermore, during span of the Roman Empire the romans were heavily fascist, nationalistic, militaristic and yet sex and homosexuality was socially accepted as common place. To give another example in feudal Japan and in the military class (ie samurai) Bushido code [which was strictly followed] glorified same sex relationships as the purest form of love and encouraged homosexuality; that is the same feudal japan who was extremely conservative, xenophobic, hierarchical, strictly ritualistic and highly resilient to social reform. My point, which hopefully you are able to grasp, is that societies are complex phenomena that employ a myriad of explicit/implicit norms that come to exist for several unique reasons. So while it is true that societies can be like the one you’ve written, such a society is by no means the median permutation available of all the different ways that a society can develop, let alone a common development.


The only reason your saying it doesn’t make sense for the Tajara culture to accept a few liberal notions is because you either incapable or unwilling to realize a more realistic or interesting lore. The monotone in your writing can be summed up simply by saying “think Russia”. Bravo. 10/10

 


It was no fucking okay to be gay in Rome, it was only acceptable to fuck young boys BECAUSE they sounded and looked like women, gays didn't get married, you'd be shamed if you were gay, you degenerate. Also quoting gender studies 0/10

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(...)

If our lore is so terrible, boring, ignorable, uninspired and generally bad writing, could you please point the devs in the right direction? Provide an example of the 'good writing' in this 'conservative vs liberal' situation? Because, now, you're just calling the devs and their lore 'bad', you're free to get involved and make suggestions, as we're a community.


I, personally, don't see a reason Adhomai, that's still engulfed in a civil war, wouldn't be pro-family (that's anti-gay, I guess?). If I were any goverment, I would encourage my citizens to start families and make kids, since adult males are dying at the battlefront. Being gay-ok just does not make any sense. But, that's just after a quick look at the lore,I didn't actually read it.

 

Dreamix I did provide examples to attempt to point the lore in the right direction. If you read my op I gave several examples of real cultures that have depth to their understanding. But it was ignored and instead everyone just went with their simplified and untrue narrative that I’m just complaining about the tajara being conservative.


The thing is, it /can/ be explained that homosexuality is not accepted. It can also be explained that it’s an exception to the normally conservative culture (I provided several examples of this happening in real life, so if you still think it doesn't make sense please refer to the real examples I provided). My biggest complaint is that the culture is so monotone that they are simple to understand. The entirety of the culture can be summed up with “they are conservative”. That’s what’s boring. If you can sum up the entirety of any culture in one sentence it makes for extremely plain lore. The same would be true if you could sum up the entire culture with the line “they are all really liberal.”(...)

Well, these 'examples' you provided, as determined by other posters, are not really true or relevant. I was also asking about how would you want to change our own lore, real life facts won't do it, as you could as well just quote some research texts about gay chimpanzees. "Media and governments are promoting homosexuality over the ability to make kids, despite the constant civil war going on. Perhaps they want Tajarans to go extinct, or stop the war after the sides run out of male, young recruits?" That sounds much better (and is also extremely stupid, as no one would want to play a stupid enough cat to believe and live according to what media are saying) than "uh, romans were gay, and Tajarans can be gay because they're using the bushido code, or whatever".


Also, if you summed up Tajaran lore by 'they are conservative', then you really only care about their views on homosexuality. Why not sum Tajarans up by 'they are in a limbo of civil wars' or 'they are space gypsies' or whatever.


Also, again, the lore is supposed to be monotone and simple to understand. Imagine that you have to spend weeks learning the entire human history just to play one. We're playing a video game, I want to tell who's who and how I should react to them at a glance. It may be lazy, but I'm having fun this way.

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Jackboot, let's just remind ourselves that the most outspoken person in this thread is the one that has written consistent vitriolic player complaints against people who dared insult their fursona or oppress their character in any way at all. A good deal of IC reports are also written in the same manner. Is anyone surprised? Let me answer: No. Just don't take them seriously, they've never had anything useful to say during their time here and they've constantly used the staff team and other community members to set upon each other for the sake of personal gain or amusement.


TheFurry has no room to talk about quality of the lore when their own characters are representations of FurAffinity deviancy.

 

@jackboot

Insulted you? I’ve criticized your work and the lore that is being set. If you can’t take criticism for the lore your setting perhaps you shouldn’t be creating lore. I find your comment about starting to ignore me rich; you mean to say you weren’t ignoring me already? Then how did you miss my points entirely? #askingtherealquestions

 

Apparently nothing of depth can be said here without it going over your head. Your the lore writer so let me dumb it down just for you. I don’t care that it’s conservative. I’m remarking on how boring a single-faceted and flat culture is. If the culture was entirely liberal and that’s all it was then from a lore perspective that culture is still boring as fuck, and easily ignorable. So this is not conservative vs liberal. I’m remarking that this is single-faceted, uninspired, and boring. Probably why so many tajara ignore the lore, there is no substance to it but a one faced gimmick (i.e. bad writing). The fact that I have to dumb down it down for you is what’s disappointing.

 

This is plenty representative of the argumentative capacity they have. They can't have a conversation without being offended by an opposing viewpoint being brought up, they get utterly frustrated of a change that doesn't even effect them whatsoever since nobody really seems to read the lore anyway, and they backpedal whenever they feel their position becomes compromised because they made an obtuse observation.


Many Tajarans ignore the lore because they want to play out their self-insert fursona. They don't care about culture or the in-depth ramifications of what it means to roleplay as an Aurorauniverse Tajaran, they just want to engage in borderline furry ERP and cringeworthy romance story arcs and willfully pursue them to the detriment of others.


I don't mean to be insulting to the rest of the Tajaran whitelistees who thankfully take themselves and the lore seriously, but the other portion of the Tajaran playerbase that think this place is Unbound Travels or Citadel is what make everyone look like degenerates when that isn't the case.


I stand with the lore team regarding whatever decisions they make, even in spite of the meme newscasts. The lore team has changed nothing about gay Tajarans existing on the Aurora. That is up to the players who have gay cats, and straight cats, to decide for themselves on how to react to their society estranging homosexuals from the rest of 'normal' Tajarans.


Remember, he doesn't care, right?

 

So I’m pretty impartial to the actual decision. I do think it’s a dumb move considering how it will effect a large population of the Tajaras players and it’s implemented in poor taste. But other than that I don’t really care.
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OK.


So what is exactly wrong with this change? Is there any argument presented that isn't "I personally disagree with this"? Are there actual lore concerns as to how this wouldn't be feasible?

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It's a sudden change. One which a good deal of Taj players may care about, regardless if they are gay furries or not. It's bound to cause friction.

 

So what is exactly wrong with this change? Is there any argument presented that isn't "I personally disagree with this"? Are there actual lore concerns as to how this wouldn't be feasible?

And no, other than it being out of the blue.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

The question of the OP has hopefully been answered. If that isn't true, I encourage you to resubmit this question about the change and how it affects your characters. If you have general feedback about the change you should make a new thread in general. I'll consider this answered otherwise! OP has long since stopped posting in here.

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