Roll Atmospherics Technician into Station Engineer

[Nanako]

I don't feel that the Atmospherics Technician job is a good idea. Of course atmospherics is important, but the existance of that job, and the designation of special areas for it, just gets in the way more than anything.

The first thing an engineer does in any round is get kitted up. You grab your multitool, your insulated gloves, perhaps your magboots.

And then the second thing an engineer does is hack into atmospherics, and bolt it open. Because getting in there is critical to getting the engine setup. if there's an AI it could bolt the door open, but otherwise you hack that door or everyone dies.

Engineers need into there quite frequently for all sorts of reasons, too. like refilling gas, But we do have atmospheric alert consoles outside of it.

Now what does an atmospherics tech even do? They typically don't fix air alarms, because those usually come from a hull breach, fixing that is an engineer's job. and you don't send two people to a one-person task. They can optimise the atmospherics setup a bit, but a good engineer can do that too, and often will. I don't see a point in the role.

What i propose instead, is all of the following:

1 Remove the Atmospherics Technician class

2. Give Station Engineer full access to what is currently atmospherics

3. add Atmospherics Technician as a new alternative title for Station Engineer.

Someone who wants to specialise in atmospherics and stay in there optimising the air systems, can still do that, but engineering wouldn't have this pointless division that slows everything down.

Thoughts?

[Ordessa]

Personally, I'm against this, but only because quite a few engineers don't have anything more than a basic understanding of atmospherics (myself included). Keeping them separated would probably ly be a good idea in my opinion.

[Gollee]

Atmos is a seperate job because of the complexity, and possibly round-ending errors, of Atmos.

[Guest]

Yeah, the reason I can't play CE is because I don't know atmospherics in-depth enough, they're completely different jobs.

[Skull132]

And then the second thing an engineer does is hack into atmospherics, and bolt it open. Because getting in there is critical to getting the engine setup. if there's an AI it could bolt the door open, but otherwise you hack that door or everyone dies.

Engineers need into there quite frequently for all sorts of reasons, too. like refilling gas, But we do have atmospheric alert consoles outside of it.

 

This is not only a violation of IC regs, but it's also bad, because you don't need into atmos to set up the engine. All the gas you could ever need for a functional engine setup is in Engineering Hard Storage, through the Engineering Workshop. Anything beyond that is advanced setup, and would require interdepartmental (in this case, intradepartmental) cooperation. Which you are pleasantly sidestepping because hackerMcGoo.

 

Now what does an atmospherics tech even do? They typically don't fix air alarms, because those usually come from a hull breach, fixing that is an engineer's job.

 

Fixing air alarms is not done through fixing breaches, though. You fix the hull, and then you repressurize the place. It's the latter which is the purview of the atmospheric technician. An engineer with an air tank should be the last resort to repressurization, with the first being an actually knowledgeable atmospherics technician using air pumps and the preset atmospherics systems. Large scale breaches usually come with destroyed piping, which needs to be fixed by an atmospheric technician while the engineers fix the flooring and walls and electronics.

 

And you don't send two people to a one-person task. They can optimise the atmospherics setup a bit, but a good engineer can do that too, and often will. I don't see a point in the role.

 

Except, fixing large breaches is the job of an entire team. And even with small breaches that vent a place, you need to have an atmospheric technician with you if stuff's damaged beyond the point of, "Imma just open this door and let it fix itself."

Ya, sure. You could say that your engineer is trained in electronics, construction, engine setup, and advanced atmospherics. But at that point, seriously, you're powergaming. Which is not only a violation of the rules themselves, but also comes with a side of bad roleplay thrown in there.

 

Someone who wants to specialise in atmospherics and stay in there optimising the air systems, can still do that, but engineering wouldn't have this pointless division that slows everything down.

Thoughts?

 

Then the admins would simply enforce IC knowledge more heavily on engineers. "So you know how to fix holes, the power, and set up atmos? Okay, warning for you for failing to adhere to character creation standards." It would also be a move to kill cooperation and overcoming difficulty through cooperation -- something which I am, on principle, against. Completely and utterly.

[Nanako]

Personally, I'm against this, but only because quite a few engineers don't have anything more than a basic understanding of atmospherics (myself included). Keeping them separated would probably ly be a good idea in my opinion.

 

Then they can stay out. People naturally tend to avoid things they don't understand anyway.

A whole lot of paramedics and doctors can't perform surgery, that doesn't mean we need a seperate surgeon role. The Medical Doctor alt title of Surgeon does just fine for making people aware that you know what you're doing. But being able to enter the surgery room and use the tools, means they can attempt it if a patient is otherwise doomed and there's no qualified surgeon.

There's also all the alternative titles for Scientist, indicating that you specialise in different departments. There's no dedicated phoron researcher, or xenoarchaologist, but people still pick those titles, and specialise in those departments all the same

I just want to apply the same principle to engineering, which is already used in other areas of the ship. It simplifies things and adds options, rather than removing them. As an engineer, you're entrusted with the care of the station, and you have plenty of ways to wreck it with or without atmospherics, as well as naturally provided tools to hack into almost anywhere

Many on the other hand, DO have a good understanding, and would appreciate the removal of (imo pointless) obstacles

[Skull132]

Please address my points as well, once you have time.

In the mean time, allow me to address yours.

There's also all the alternative titles for Scientist, indicating that you specialise in different departments. There's no dedicated phoron researcher, or xenoarchaologist, but people still pick those titles, and specialise in those departments all the same.

This is because the individual mechanics for these sub-categories are not expansive enough to warrant a full job. Picking phoron research as a full role, and having very specific access reqs applied to you, would make the game completely unplayable as one. The same thing would apply to medical doctor/surgeon/virologist, though slightly less so. The basic idea is: jobs centered around one singular IC mechanic are not a good way to go.

Though you make it appear that this is the case with Atmospheric Technicians, it is not. Both engineers and atmospherics technicians have enough mechanical play room to keep themselves going for hours. In fact, if people actually communicated with atmospherics technicians (most specifically, if the engineers did so), then there would be enough mechanical issues for both jobs to do their thing and feel satisfied at the end of the day.

 

As an engineer, you're entrusted with the care of the station, and you have plenty of ways to wreck it with or without atmospherics, as well as naturally provided tools to hack into almost anywhere.

This argument is irrelevant to the conversation. If I wanted to, I could do (and have done) all of science as a scientist. To include robotics. If I wanted to, I could do all of medical as a medical doctor. If I wanted to, I could do all of sec as a security officer. Your argument boils down to, "They can already hack into places, so we should give them access anyways." Which would basically encourage powergaming.

And a note about "adding options". Does it add options to the role? In the short term, yes. However, in the long run, the mentality with which you approach this issue would remove the majority of substance from conflicts. Restricted access, the requirement for teamwork and communication, and all of the rest which is attached to such segregation is a very good way to generate IC conflict, both positive and negative. It generates and fosters roleplay.

Instead of simply walking into atmos, taking what you need, and walking off, you're right now forced to either confront and deal with an atmospheric technician or the CE; or choose to break the IC regs, break into atmos, and then deal with sec as they hunt and find you. This roleplay value would be completely lost, were the entire department rolled into one job.

[Nanako]

This is not only a violation of IC regs, but it's also bad, because you don't need into atmos to set up the engine. All the gas you could ever need for a functional engine setup is in Engineering Hard Storage, through the Engineering Workshop.

 

No it isn't, that contains exactly one tank of phoron. The chemical properties of substances are general knowledge, and it is known that phoron has the most optimal heat transfer. Even if one tank were enough to setup, it's not enough to replenish the engine when it needs a refill. There's no connector to the phoron tank in there, or afaik anywhere else in engineering. If there were, we wouldn't need to break into atmospherics

Maybe it'll last for a two hour round, but building an engine that'll only last a couple of hours because you know the game won't last that long, is most definitely metagaming, and far worse than breaking IC rules.

Yes it's a violation of regulations, that's a problem. You shouldn't have to violate regulations to do your job effectively. That is exactly why i created this thread, to address what i see as a fundamental issue with the station's design.

I've only seen one engineer who didn't break into atmospherics to setup the engine. He came up to science and stole our phoron instead. We had no canisters, and no way to replenish the empty ones he took. I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some regulation too, since the purpose of the station is science.

 

Fixing air alarms is not done through fixing breaches, though. You fix the hull, and then you repressurize the place.

I believe, given suffficient time, a room will repressurise itself as the vents naturally do their job. Setting it to fill is faster though, and is really not complex to do, i figured that out for myself the first time I poked around in an air alarm interface (unlocked with an engineer ID, by the way). The interface contains instructions to the user, it's practically foolproof. It may not be the most optimal thing to do, perhaps some advanced atmospheric knowledge could do it faster, but it works. There

It's the latter which is the purview of the atmospheric technician. An engineer with an air tank should be the last resort to repressurization,

 

Except, fixing large breaches is the job of an entire team. And even with small breaches that vent a place, you need to have an atmospheric technician with you if stuff's damaged beyond the point of, "Imma just open this door and let it fix itself."

With a matter of time and materials, you can fix just about anything yourself. an atmospheric tech would be useful if pipes and vents are gone, but constructing most things is usually an engineer's job

 

Ya, sure. You could say that your engineer is trained in electronics, construction, engine setup, and advanced atmospherics. But at that point, seriously, you're powergaming. Which is not only a violation of the rules themselves, but also comes with a side of bad roleplay thrown in there.

 

What? How can you call that powergaming. You just described the Chief Engineer, a role who is expected to know all of that. A role I hope to apply for once i reach that level of expertise

 

Then the admins would simply enforce IC knowledge more heavily on engineers. "So you know how to fix holes, the power, and set up atmos? Okay, warning for you for failing to adhere to character creation standards." It would also be a move to kill cooperation and overcoming difficulty through cooperation -- something which I am, on principle, against. Completely and utterly.

 

Cooperation is important. However i would also call it cooperation, to dispatch three engineers to three seperate hull breaches, and coordinating them over the radio. Someone who can get the job done properly is an asset to the station. I don't think it's unreasonable for one person to know how to do everything their department is capable of.

Throughout all of this though, you seem to be missing a practical point.

Atmospheric Techs are rare. People pick the role fairly uncommonly, and the station has to operate without one, more often than not.

Alot of your arguments seem to be based on envisioning a perfect station where everyone fills every role and sticks to their specialty, that rarely occurs. I think i've only seen all staff heads present in one instance, getting any department fully populated with one of each role is similarly rare. This being a roleplay based server, there are many people who act appropriately Their character has a specialty, and they stick to it, they pick the same role over and over, even if it's already saturated.

Engineers solve problems, ultimately. They break and outright ignore regulations, more than any other role, and they do it for the good of the station. They do what needs to be done.

You can keep wishing for them to play the model employee better, and stick within the rules. But they're going to keep breaking into places they need to be in, and keep taking on large jobs alone. I don't know what will happen if you try to stop that

I don't want to see their lives made harder, it's a thankless enough job as is

[ChevalierMalFet]

I like Atmotechs because operating the atmospheric situation is a genuine skill; it's something not every player knows how to do. So if nothing else, I would miss the cachet of it, even though nowadays I only play CE.

The reason we need atmospherics, though, is simple - in order to prompt teamwork, every department has to be divided, at the very least, in half. In security, wardens can't access the forensics lab and detectives can't access the armory. (I have a real problem with the fact that in terms of clearances, a Warden is a pure step up from a Security Officer, but that's a topic for another day.) Medical doctors can't enter chemistry and chemists can't enter surgery. Cargotechs can't enter mining and miners can't enter cargo. Roboticists can't enter R&D, scientists can't enter robotics, and xeno is isolated from both.

We need this, because an essential part of the game system - with and without antagonists - is that the crew has to work together, and that the lack of a particular crew member can cause havoc. In a round without antagonists, we all have to operate our little piece of the machinery in order to hit high numbers. In a round with antagonists, the antag has to be able to cause real chaos in the system by a well-placed assassination or kidnapping. In a system where one player has the mental wherewithal to operate more than one system, or maybe even operate all of them, we have to rely on rp restrictions and door clearances - but we /need/ them, we absolutely do, as a piece of terrain that we maneuver around.

Furthermore, if we got rid of Atmospheric Engineers and applied a red-blue clearance to all engineers, then what would the CE do, other than have their little office? One of the major points of being a HoS is that you can go everywhere in your department; if the rank-and-file can also go everywhere, then that removes another major piece of terrain.

I think this calls for some protracted meditation. On the one hand, the more everybody's job is separated, the more satisfying high-pop rounds become - everybody has to work as a team in order to get things done. On the other hand, low-pop rounds become more difficult because there aren't enough hands to fill every station. I offer up two ideas to consider.

1) It seems that the obvious topic of discussion is starting the engine, or more specifically, the fact that we aren't as familiar with the supermatter engine as we were with the old singulo. If I may be so gauche, I would suggest some kind of system whereby, in low-pop rounds, either the AI or straight-up an admin can start the engine essentially from the console, thus obviating the need for a whole crew to set it up.

2) Conversely, we need to figure out if it's even possible to run the engine for two hours on nitrogen, and if so, we need some clearer and more explicit steps on how to do it. The supermatter guide on the forums has us using both C02 and phoron, but the presence of nitrogen means that it's obviously supposed to be the default. If we could get a real step-by-step on how one station engineer could start the engine, doing nothing but following the guide and without breaking any of their clearances, then I think that would be another asset to us.

[Skull132]

No it isn't, that contains exactly one tank of phoron. The chemical properties of substances are general knowledge, and it is known that phoron has the most optimal heat transfer. Even if one tank were enough to setup, it's not enough to replenish the engine when it needs a refill. There's no connector to the phoron tank in there, or afaik anywhere else in engineering. If there were, we wouldn't need to break into atmospherics

Maybe it'll last for a two hour round, but building an engine that'll only last a couple of hours because you know the game won't last that long, is most definitely metagaming, and far worse than breaking IC rules.

 

You don't need phoron for a good engineering setup, though it looks like we'll end up calling each other metagamer and minmaxer if we continue with this. Ideally, you'd have an atmospheric technician present to give you these gasses as you need them. Hey, you know, teamwork! Obviously, deadhour can stifle this, but such stifling is spread all across the board. You simply deal with it as necessary, instead of requesting that livehour be molded after deadhour.

 

Yes it's a violation of regulations, that's a problem. You shouldn't have to violate regulations to do your job effectively. That is exactly why i created this thread, to address what i see as a fundamental issue with the station's design.

 

Aaand you don't have to, because the regs are built up under the expectation that the Exodus has a full compliment. This includes atmospheric technicians to service your requests.

 

I believe, given suffficient time, a room will repressurise itself as the vents naturally do their job. Setting it to fill is faster though, and is really not complex to do, i figured that out for myself the first time I poked around in an air alarm interface (unlocked with an engineer ID, by the way). The interface contains instructions to the user, it's practically foolproof. It may not be the most optimal thing to do, perhaps some advanced atmospheric knowledge could do it faster, but it works. There

 

And this goes to prove why we actually need atmospheric techs. Most of them actually know better than what you explained, and those skills should not be made moot or irrelevant. The role has a purpose: to properly fix atmospheric issues. What you described is not properly fixing atmospheric issues, ergo, atmos techs are needed.

 

With a matter of time and materials, you can fix just about anything yourself. an atmospheric tech would be useful if pipes and vents are gone, but constructing most things is usually an engineer's job.

 

Literally doesn't address my point. Yes, you could do all of this yourself. But you aren't a trained individual in atmos, so your toolset for managing it should be very lacking. Get an actual tech to fix the issue, hooyah.

 

What? How can you call that powergaming. You just described the Chief Engineer, a role who is expected to know all of that. A role I hope to apply for once i reach that level of expertise.

 

Not every engineer is a chief engineer, first and foremost. Secondly, it is a misconception that all heads of staff must be amazing and know everything about all jobs under their purview. No. The job of a leader is to know what specific people under their purview are useful for, to have a working familiarity with all of such roles, and that's it. You need enough to understand where and how to apply your staff, but you don't need to know the exact mathematics of mole calculation and chemistry to be a CE. (Which an atmos tech would know.)

 

Cooperation is important. However i would also call it cooperation, to dispatch three engineers to three seperate hull breaches, and coordinating them over the radio. Someone who can get the job done properly is an asset to the station.

 

And leaving the atmos tech/engineer situation be how it is atm affects this example, how? You can still do it right now.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for one person to know how to do everything their department is capable of.

 

It is here where I, and the rules, will have to disagree with you. To have a character that knows how to do everything forever in an expansive department is ridiculous, from an RP standard. There are limitations placed on this. While an engineer may very well know how the wrenching in of pipes and shit works, they should not be able to just figure out the advanced end of atmospherics and gas manipulation.

 

Throughout all of this though, you seem to be missing a practical point.

Atmospheric Techs are rare. People pick the role fairly uncommonly, and the station has to operate without one, more often than not.

 

I have little intention of going along with this argument. It will lead to a very stupid end, as the same argument could be applied to a myriad of jobs. Then, we would end with a glorious mess of super-jobs, and literally any standard about character knowledge and so forth would be going bye-bye.

Here's a thought, if the issue is as constant as you describe it, why not play atmos tech yourself? Surely there are enough engineers then to keep you busy.

 

Alot of your arguments seem to be based on envisioning a perfect station where everyone fills every role and sticks to their specialty, that rarely occurs. I think i've only seen all staff heads present in one instance, getting any department fully populated with one of each role is similarly rare. This being a roleplay based server, there are many people who act appropriately Their character has a specialty, and they stick to it, they pick the same role over and over, even if it's already saturated.

 

While I would love to rely on the good will of the playerbase, I have learned that you need mechanical restrictions in place to get the point across. Even if the "rules" enforced by these mechanical restrictions aren't broken with malicious intent, they will still be broken if those restrictions are lifted.

 

You can keep wishing for them to play the model employee better, and stick within the rules. But they're going to keep breaking into places they need to be in, and keep taking on large jobs alone. I don't know what will happen if you try to stop that

 

While I point out regulation breaches as they come and go, I do it with the intention of making you see the value of teamwork, and to also point out the potential for conflict. Every violation is another IC decision of, "Do I want to risk my job for these people..?" And may, in certain cases, end up being the lynchpin for a good moment of RP. I don't really intend to stop them (At least, not at present), but I also don't intend to enable them further. I like the status quo.

 

1) It seems that the obvious topic of discussion is starting the engine, or more specifically, the fact that we aren't as familiar with the supermatter engine as we were with the old singulo. If I may be so gauche, I would suggest some kind of system whereby, in low-pop rounds, either the AI or straight-up an admin can start the engine essentially from the console, thus obviating the need for a whole crew to set it up.

 

You can setup SM with N2 just fine. Seriously. It works, I've led many players through setting it up and watched it for rounds that last over 3 hours. N2 works just fine, and you have basic access to 6 canisters of it, without any illegal access.

[Conservatron]

as an engineer/ 'learning' atmos tech (ive joined more rounds as a tech recently than engineer, and every time yelled at engineers to fix my door and return my plasma)

keep them separate, but like give more for atmos to do. After initial configuration there really isn't much for an atmos tech to do except for specific orders (we need frozen gas ect..) Especially how difficult it is to repipe ports and how full air pumps are by default now (every pump spawns with over 9k pressure, enough to make any normally sized room 'livable'

But really, give atmos techs more work to do and more will probably log in to give plasma to engineers.

And yes, N2 is 'fine' but plasma is so much more efficient and generates much better power at lower temperatures and is actually safer.

edit - my atmos training is all documented and was conducted on site under a number of atmos techs and chief engineers, and is accounted for in my employment records. When I started, I knew absolutely nothing icly and oocly about atmos, but xullie has been a member of station crew icly for like 2 years now (whenever we split from apollo)

[Enzayne]

I play CE from time to time, and while I personally also enjoy setting up the engine with phoron whenever I can/want, I would like to note that what you are arguing for is the very definition of powergaming. As far as roleplaying is concerned, you are arriving to a work shift, and your superiors are expecting you to work with the supplies you have been provided.

How many blue-collar workers would regularly break protocol/the law just because the possibility of optimization exists behind closed doors? It is far likelier that -you- want to optimize the engine, and therefore you break into atmospherics and take what you need. Would your character do this? Why? They can lose their job for it, and not many supervisors would get in on the "ends justify the means"-train (I mean, we're not science, after all).

[UnknownMurder]

I like you, Nanako, as a friend... But, I must say we shouldn't do this way. I don't mean, we CAN'T do it. No offense, while you and Skull are yelling at each other, I'll point the ways out we shouldn't have it.

Here's why:

 

• My, irrelevant but somewhat relevant, suggestion still stands, I want to try to apply an IT to the Engineering Department.
  
• Station Engineer and Atmospheric Tech. are two different fields.
  
• Someone will suggest to get them separate later in future.
  
• There is not only a Station Engineer, but a Maintenance Tech., Engine Tech., Electricians. Again, they are different fields.

 

If Station Engineer were to do advanced atmospheric, then it would be touching the levels of powergaming. Station Engineer does the repairing of the hulls. The atmospheric technicians finalizes the area, and ensures that the area's pressure is optimized for the crew. However, I have seen so much atmospheric technician, especially Roy Wyatt, knowing how to do construction. The Engineering Department has become more complicated over the months. There is usually a character who is flipping back and forth... From Engineer to Atmospheric Tech then back to Engineer.

Yes, Skull. You are right. You have expressed that it is breaking the OOC's immersion, but I must reconsider to check the character's skills (Which is probably FULL KNOWLEDGE OF ATMOS, FULL KNOWLEDGE OF ENGINEERING. I CAN DO THIS! UNLIMITED ENGINEERING KNOWLEDGE! EDUCATION IS POWAR!) . Maybe it is the time we should start putting the skillset into good use, no?

I'm hardly in Engineering, so I'm on a tip of the iceberg waiting for the wind to push me to one side. I don't know much Engineering but, I always have a guide.

[Butterrobber202]

I like you, Nanako, as a friend... But, I must say we shouldn't do this way. I don't mean, we CAN'T do it. No offense, while you and Skull are yelling at each other, I'll point the ways out we shouldn't have it.

Here's why:

 

• My, irrelevant but somewhat relevant, suggestion still stands, I want to try to apply an IT to the Engineering Department.
  
• Station Engineer and Atmospheric Tech. are two different fields.
  
• Someone will suggest to get them separate later in future.
  
• There is not only a Station Engineer, but a Maintenance Tech., Engine Tech., Electricians. Again, they are different fields.

 

If Station Engineer were to do advanced atmospheric, then it would be touching the levels of powergaming. Station Engineer does the repairing of the hulls. The atmospheric technicians finalizes the area, and ensures that the area's pressure is optimized for the crew. However, I have seen so much atmospheric technician, especially Roy Wyatt, knowing how to do construction. The Engineering Department has become more complicated over the months. There is usually a character who is flipping back and forth... From Engineer to Atmospheric Tech then back to Engineer.

Yes, Skull. You are right. You have expressed that it is breaking the OOC's immersion, but I must reconsider to check the character's skills (Which is probably FULL KNOWLEDGE OF ATMOS, FULL KNOWLEDGE OF ENGINEERING. I CAN DO THIS! UNLIMITED ENGINEERING KNOWLEDGE! EDUCATION IS POWAR!) . Maybe it is the time we should start putting the skillset into good use, no?

I'm hardly in Engineering, so I'm on a tip of the iceberg waiting for the wind to push me to one side. I don't know much Engineering but, I always have a guide.

 

[K0NFL1QT]

Keep them separate. Give Atmos Tech engine access. The Thermal Energy Generator is an atmos engine anyway.

[Nanako]

Apologies for taking a while to come back to this.

Skull, we clearly have different opinions on how things should be done, and i don't think either is going to convince the other. You have the power here, this is a battle of words i can't win.

So throw this one in the bin