Enslavement Implant

[Kaed]

Back on a few of the servers I used to have an option in the traitor panel for a neat doohicky called an Enslavement Implant. Costing 4 crystals, it essentially caused the organic you put it in to be 'lawed' to follow your orders/not harm you/assist you to the best of their abilities. Now, way back in time I suggested this to the Aurora server, when you were on your old codebase and map, and it was sort of dismissed as 'not conductive to fun roleplay'.

However, now you have set a precedent in including vampires, who have essentially the same concept built into their kit (though in a less mechanical 'follow these rules' way and in a more 'serve your dark overlord' way), so I think the time is ripe for re-suggesting this idea in some form. Usually it is also blocked by loyalty implanting, which seems reasonable.

[Guest Menown]

I'm not up for forcing people to be antags. That's one reason I dislike enthralling, and dislike playing an AI. If people want to be an antag, they'll usually have it selected.

[Guest]

Mindslaving implants are terrible in practice, particularly, an example would be Hippiestation which I believe has it. It is never picked because mindslaves are not reliable to start with if they have no saving grace or powers past what they have. It's a waste of TC, for the most part, for a dumb gimmick.

Mindslaving should only be reserved to the vampire game mode (I mean, hell, the competitive vampire scene over a /tg/ doesn't even use enthralling, it's literally that worthless) as well as when the synthetics get hacked. Such instantaneous, forced things are not very immersive or interesting in any roleplay standpoint, either.

[TrickingTrapster]

A little double-edged on this. While the idea makes sense, I am also against forcing people to antag(I have had issues with the cult using soulstones on me before), but then again, I'm also against destroying cloning/robotics as those are the only things that can get players back into the game without making them wait 30 minutes, or just straight up killing players as it takes them out of the game in general. Honestly, if there's just a way of finding out someone has been slave-implanted, and there's a reliable way to remove it, that's fine by me. It doesn't sound as strict as AI laws, or as forced as cult or vampire, since people would see you implant someone just like that. As long as you can resist ridiculous orders ("shoot yourself in the head!", "steal the captain's ID off their suit!") and just have to, like, cover up for them or distract people by making a talk, I don't think there are huge issues with it.

[Kaed]

Mindslaving implants are terrible in practice, particularly, an example would be Hippiestation which I believe has it. It is never picked because mindslaves are not reliable to start with if they have no saving grace or powers past what they have. It's a waste of TC, for the most part, for a dumb gimmick.

Mindslaving should only be reserved to the vampire game mode (I mean, hell, the competitive vampire scene over a /tg/ doesn't even use enthralling, it's literally that worthless) as well as when the synthetics get hacked. Such instantaneous, forced things are not very immersive or interesting in any roleplay standpoint, either.

 

I'm not up for forcing people to be antags. That's one reason I dislike enthralling, and dislike playing an AI. If people want to be an antag, they'll usually have it selected.

 

Those are very subjective descriptions of the process, and I recall having a number of interesting roleplays regarding this exact mechanic on servers that had it. From a mechanical standpoint it can gain you the skills and resources of any one of nearly anyone in the crew as an ally, without worrying about them running off and betraying you the moment you take your eyes off them. The whole "buh I dun wanna be an antag" thing is frankly kind of a watery argument in the first place - if you're playing in a round type with antags, you're going to see antags. Sometimes, they're going to hold a metaphorical gun to your head and force you to do things, one way or another. If you want to throw a tantrum and log out instantly, fine. They can just talk to the admins about maybe getting the resources they lost on you replaced, and find someone more receptive to negative roleplay. You aren't being FORCED to participate in the round, but don't rail on people because they prefer a non-murderous idea to get someone to do what they want. Also, a lot of people who want to be antags don't get picked as antags, because you can only start with so many in a round. You should avoid getting into a hugboxing mentality in a server that literally lets people pick what round type they want by vote at the start and doesn't penalize you for leaving the round if you don't want to play anymore.

From a roleplay standpoint, as Trapster says, in many cases it is better than removing them from the round and they get to have an active role. An important part of using them is understanding people's comfort zones, too. If you implant someone who hates being antag you're going to make them miserable, sure, but it's possible to work out a middle ground with them so they aren't having the worst round ever because you're, say, sending the medic to go murderizing everyone when they just wanted to lurk in medical and roleplay.

 

Honestly, if there's just a way of finding out someone has been slave-implanted, and there's a reliable way to remove it, that's fine by me. It doesn't sound as strict as AI laws, or as forced as cult or vampire, since people would see you implant someone just like that.

 

This is actually a more reasonable option than entrallment, on that note, because the implant is an object that shows up on advanced scanner in the medbay and can be surgically removed. Vampire enthrallment is undetectable and irremovable.

[Nanako]

I'm not up for forcing people to be antags.

We already have it. Vampires and cultists. So any argument along the lines of "we shouldn't have this in the game" is already invalidated

 

Honestly, if there's just a way of finding out someone has been slave-implanted, and there's a reliable way to remove it, that's fine by me.

All implants in the game so far show up on a full-body medical scan, and can be surgically removed. No reason for this to be different

 

It doesn't sound as strict as AI laws, or as forced as cult or vampire, since people would see you implant someone just like that. As long as you can resist ridiculous orders ("shoot yourself in the head!", "steal the captain's ID off their suit!") and just have to, like, cover up for them or distract people by making a talk, I don't think there are huge issues with it.

I don't see a reason you should be able to resist those orders. Just because you're told to murder the captain, doesn't mean you have to do it successfully. A medic with a lasergun can deliberately shoot the floor beside him to RP a lack of weapons experience

Getting out of the situation wouldn't really be that difficult if you get caught by security. Just RP that you don't know why you did those things. Act strange, dead-eyed, etc. Eventually you'll get sent to medbay at some point and the good doctors will see Enslavement Implant in your neck. Once it's confirmed you were being controlled, you'll pretty much be released immediately

On a more personal note, I'd really like to see this. We had a round yesterday where a syndicate Janitor became captain, and he sadly had to robust his way out of several assasination attempts with no choice but to kill people (who'd just arrived 5 minutes ago). Some of them were pissed. If he had the option to buy enxlavement implants, he could have taken prisoners, enthralled them to serve normal duties as crew, and everything could have been more fun for everyone

[Dreamix]

I'm fine with it. It would allow me, and others, to do some antagonistic work without actually being the antag.

And again, if you're joining a round that's secret/voted antag, don't expect extended. You will die, or be forced to do things, sometimes.

[Carver]

As someone who ghosts before people get the chance to turn me into a cult construct, and has a severe hatred of becoming a vampire thrall, being forced into an antag role will only lead to salt and a whole bundle of mess for a lot of folks in general.

If I wanted to be an antag, I would've readied up for the role. Plain and simple.

[Guest]

From a roleplay standpoint, as Trapster says, in many cases it is better than removing them from the round and they get to have an active role. An important part of using them is understanding people's comfort zones, too. If you implant someone who hates being antag you're going to make them miserable, sure, but it's possible to work out a middle ground with them so they aren't having the worst round ever because you're, say, sending the medic to go murderizing everyone when they just wanted to lurk in medical and roleplay.

This is morein unconvincing than it actually is convincing. You're saying it's better for roleplay to have a medic removed from their active roleplay just so they can satisfy the antag's wishes in murderboning everyone? Because that doesn't sound like roleplay.

I'm sure you might say I'm misinterpreting, but whenever the word "murder" comes up in a serious post about antagonism, you'll have to understand most people are going to be reasonably against that sort of deal, not including the bloodthirsty minority of the community constantly self-antagging and looking for valids.

I'm fine with it. It would allow me, and others, to do some antagonistic work without actually being the antag.

This being indication of my point.

[Kaed]

This is morein unconvincing than it actually is convincing. You're saying it's better for roleplay to have a medic removed from their active roleplay just so they can satisfy the antag's wishes in murderboning everyone? Because that doesn't sound like roleplay.

I'm sure you might say I'm misinterpreting, but whenever the word "murder" comes up in a serious post about antagonism, you'll have to understand most people are going to be reasonably against that sort of deal, not including the bloodthirsty minority of the community constantly self-antagging and looking for valids.

 

I think you kind of missed the point of what I was saying, which was "communicate with the people you have enthralled/implanted, so you don't send them off to do something that makes them uncomfortable as a player." There is no reason to use a mechanic like this just to upset people on a meta level. It's a tool to use, to make other people your tool, but they are still other people. You can easily find something for an anti-antagonistic person to do that doesn't involve going around killing people or committing obvious public crimes of moronic potential if you are creative. Even if it's just to sneakily uncuff you when you're later brought into the medbay after being captured with force.

 

As someone who ghosts before people get the chance to turn me into a cult construct, and has a severe hatred of becoming a vampire thrall, being forced into an antag role will only lead to salt and a whole bundle of mess for a lot of folks in general.

If I wanted to be an antag, I would've readied up for the role. Plain and simple.

 

That's your choice, and you can certainly ghost immediately if someone enslavement implants you, but the fact that those other things exist already gives us precedent for something like this to be in the game. It is impossible to tell by looking at someone whether they 'want to be antag', and since 90% of people never fill our their exploitable information, traitors are left to guess. You not liking it doesn't mean other people won't be up for the idea.

I'm not sure why people keep making this 'if I wanted to be antag, I would have readied up for the role' argument. It's a randomly selected small pool of people, there are lots of people who ready up for it and don't get to be antags. It's like saying 'I don't think we should have a security force, if I wanted police I would chosen to be one.' As in that situation, if you don't want to be an antag, just... don't be a antag. Ghost if you have to. Whine at the player in looc about muh ruleplays. It's not a reason not to have something in the game

[Carver]

As someone who ghosts before people get the chance to turn me into a cult construct, and has a severe hatred of becoming a vampire thrall, being forced into an antag role will only lead to salt and a whole bundle of mess for a lot of folks in general.

If I wanted to be an antag, I would've readied up for the role. Plain and simple.

 

That's your choice, and you can certainly ghost immediately if someone enslavement implants you, but the fact that those other things exist already gives us precedent for something like this to be in the game.

No, I'd get boinked for doing that. The only reason it works as a cult construct is because you succumb and ghost ASAP /before/ they can crystal you. I don't want to be forced into some obligation to be some antag's bitch for 30+ minutes.

These things all mentioned tend to be a heavy point of grudge-inducing discontentment, and a flaw in the antag systems. I've noticed in particular the 'Vamp Thrall' feature being abused heavily between two metafriends to essentially work together every time and double up in power. With cult constructs it just takes you out of the round permanently, Thralls being permanent as well.

The way Goon and such handle it is that those little implants have a timer on them, 30 minutes or so, as well as a twice-as-expensive option for permanence that only works better there because the server is far more fast-paced and competitive in nature. But that wouldn't work here due to the lengthy rounds and fact people come here to RP their own little specific roles and characters, and being forced into a role they may dislike is a negative experience for the player, worse than dying IMO. I would argue it deprives them of the RP that comes with an antagonist who could otherwise attempt to coerce a character into doing something naturally, by forcing it with a no-effort implant, whilst also being reminiscent of the abuse-laden territory that you get with antag-given AI Laws and the following thereof.

[Tenenza]

In theory this is perhaps okay, but once you think about how it'd work in practice, it does seem to fall apart.

Perhaps a softer less hard coded effect?

Perhaps a drug that gives people messages about how they are having trouble thinking straight and feel more trusting of (insert nearest player).

They wouldn't be willing to do anything that would cause them harm or be strongly against their principles or goals, but perhaps a little thing, like being more willing to let the cadet have a tour of the research division, or let some missing paperwork slide.

[Carver]

In theory this is perhaps okay, but once you think about how it'd work in practice, it does seem to fall apart.

Perhaps a softer less hard coded effect?

Perhaps a drug that gives people messages about how they are having trouble thinking straight and feel more trusting of (insert nearest player).

They wouldn't be willing to do anything that would cause them harm or be strongly against their principles or goals, but perhaps a little thing, like being more willing to let the cadet have a tour of the research division, or let some missing paperwork slide.

This should honestly be how the Vampire thrall system works, IMO. More subtle influences less "YOU MY BITCH, GO LIGHT UP SECURITY IF THEY COME FOR ME".

[Kaed]

In theory this is perhaps okay, but once you think about how it'd work in practice, it does seem to fall apart.

Perhaps a softer less hard coded effect?

Perhaps a drug that gives people messages about how they are having trouble thinking straight and feel more trusting of (insert nearest player).

They wouldn't be willing to do anything that would cause them harm or be strongly against their principles or goals, but perhaps a little thing, like being more willing to let the cadet have a tour of the research division, or let some missing paperwork slide.

 

If it's a softer effect, there is also room for people to just decide to ignore you by finding some justification for doing so, and you've wasted your resources anyway. This drug idea you gave is also probably a lot harder to code in than a targeted item that displayed a 'follow orders of X' to the target when used. It's also less precise in who it makes you suggestible to.

I don't really see how this 'falls apart in practice', Tenenza. The idea is solid, and aside from people being upset about it happening to them (something that is liable to happen during ANY antagonist interaction involving being captive in some fashion), the only problem I can think about is there not being any enforced standards for what antags can order people around for when they're enthralled/implanted. I can see being suicidal on command as a stupid thing, sure, but this idea has much more potential to it than just telling people to go murder security.

[Skull132]

This should honestly be how the Vampire thrall system works, IMO. More subtle influences less "YOU MY BITCH, GO LIGHT UP SECURITY IF THEY COME FOR ME".

 

The issue with this is, how many people would try to fuck with the freedom of the subtler way, instead of going along with the ride for the RPs?

[Carver]

There are people who still try to be spiteful no matter how strong or weak the influence/laws on them are.

[Kaed]

There are people who still try to be spiteful no matter how strong or weak the influence/laws on them are.

 

That's... not an argument in your favor. At least with a rigid code of conduct they can be called out of they are being shitters about it.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This seems like an idea with lots of good potential! The enthrallment process of the cult and vampire, and even rp-rev in a more voluntary way, give these antagonists an incentive to get multiple people involved. An antagonists' greatest weakness is usually their utter isolation, between security and the endless horde of the righteous crew. It would allow antagonists to get a brute-force method of expanding their network on the station without having to worry that much about being betrayed the instant they stop babysitting someone, or relying on metaknowledge of who will cooperate and who will have poor sportsmanship or w/e.

I think we'd be best off giving this a week or so in a test run and people that use it/receive it give their feedback, but the idea in itself is good to me. It even gives a little lovely hypocrisy in the Syndicate since NT's mind control implants are something it presumably hates.

Enslaved trying to fight the enslavement implant is a valid worry, though that's more of a sportsmanship worry than anything against the implant mechanically. Clearly being a poor sport about it is something that can be resolved by administration, similar to borgs or enthralled being poopoo heads.

[Kaed]

I think we'd be best off giving this a week or so in a test run and people that use it/receive it give their feedback, but the idea in itself is good to me. It even gives a little lovely hypocrisy in the Syndicate since NT's mind control implants are something it presumably hates.

Enslaved trying to fight the enslavement implant is a valid worry, though that's more of a sportsmanship worry than anything against the implant mechanically. Clearly being a poor sport about it is something that can be resolved by administration, similar to borgs or enthralled being poopoo heads.

 

Hypocrisy? From criminal syndicates? Unthinkable!

Also a trial wouldn't be a bad idea, but given that A) Not many people will necessarily try to use it at all times and B) Traitor rounds don't come up that often compared to some of the other game modes, the trial might need to be longer.

[Nanako]

The way i see it, if the antag commands you to do something that's not usually your job, you just fuck it up really badly, because your character shouldn't know how to do it. If he tells a security officer to make chloral hydrate, he can expect a beakerful of random elements. If he tells a chemist to attack someone, he can expect to lose a servant pretty quickly. And if he tells a cargo tech to sabotage the engine, it'll probably end up doubling in power output

[Feorn]

The way i see it, if the antag commands you to do something that's not usually your job, you just fuck it up really badly, because your character shouldn't know how to do it. If he tells a security officer to make chloral hydrate, he can expect a beakerful of random elements. If he tells a chemist to attack someone, he can expect to lose a servant pretty quickly. And if he tells a cargo tech to sabotage the engine, it'll probably end up doubling in power output

 

I'd agree with all of those except the engine. If I (completely untrained) were to go muck around with a submarine's nuclear reactor with the intent of disabling it, I'd be willing to bet I'd do far far more harm than good. Even if I didn't manage to completely disable it.

[Lucychan42]

The issue I have is that I don't see a traitor or antagonist with access to this to use it in a way that will be enjoyable for the character they enslave unless they were already willing to be an antagonist and now have their ticket to be one. I can't see an antagonist really utilizing someone that's enslaved in a way that isn't just "hey just kill everyone you can to spare me the work and you're the only one that gets caught." Maybe an antagonist would use them for like "hey, let me into your department, I need a few things" but once they have what they need, it would be inefficient to just leave them there, so of course they're inevitably going to become nothing else but enthralled mercenaries unless the antagonist is crafty and finds some way to use them.

I kind of disagree with the mindset "if you don't like it, then leave/quit/abandon the round". If your solution to people who don't desire to be some traitor's murder slave or whatever they end up using them for is to leave and have their entire round ruined or forfeit, then I feel there's an issue. There's just an icky feeling to being at the mercy of whatever the antagonist feels you would be best utilized as and not really having much say or input into that matter. Cultists at least have a group supporting them and you aren't supporting a lone antagonist but instead each other. Vampire thralls I've never once encountered or been in a vampire round, so I don't have an experienced opinion on the matter.

Point being, while it is cool from a standpoint of an antagonist having another edge, the characters are all players and it can ruin their round, which isn't a fun time. Arguably, getting killed isn't fun either but that's why just randomly murdering people as an antagonist is discouraged, and forcing them into compromising positions or even if the antagonist decides to use them as a weapon, it's essentially forced suicide. Which kinda sucks.

[Nanako]

The issue I have is that I don't see a traitor or antagonist with access to this to use it in a way that will be enjoyable for the character they enslave unless they were already willing to be an antagonist and now have their ticket to be one.

 

This point has already been raised and dismissed, to repeat: There are already two antags with involuntary conversion powers. Clearly only having to do the things you want to do as a player, is not a design goal here. The enslavement implant does not change that fact, or introduce any new problems. This argument is imo completely invalid.

[Chada1]

Isn't there already the Freedom implant? What is that? Sorry if I derail the thread with this question.

[Guest]

Isn't there already the Freedom implant? What is that? Sorry if I derail the thread with this question.

 

Breaks cuffs upon emoting.