Too Few Engineering Players?

[Nanako]

Something that's been on my mind lately, i saw this thread http://aurorastation.org/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=17&p=56586

and this post quite notably:

You're right. Calling the escape shuttle is something which happens much more often recently, but I think the biggest, number one factor behind the recent surge in calling the shuttle is a sharp decrease in the number of engineering players. All too often, we're facing constant power issues and power outages, and a lot of structural damage has been going unrepaired. I think that, once our engineers become more and more trained in the SM engine and more and more learn how to set it up properly, as well as hopefully more people playing engineering in general, then we can hopefully see these issues melding away. But, as it stands, I don't think people have faith in engineering, and I believe this is a strong factor in people's decisions to call shuttles.

 

I do notice in a lot of games, that engineering is often understaffed, and sometimes empty. People will crowd six players into security while the engine is still offline and theres no engineering staff.

But why do people play engineer less?

It's a deep, interesting and engaging department, at least gameplay wise. There's a lot of complexity, a lot to learn and do. So why do people avoid it?

Why don't YOU play engineering more?

I have a few ideas of my own, though these are just personal opinions:

1. Repetition. The process of setting up the supermatter is a bit of a pain, dragging canisters around. But its also one you have to do repeatedly, it must be done every shift or everyone dies. Its a burden engineering has to bear

2. Lack of interaction. It's an isolating job, you often mostly just see other engineers unless you need to visit medical, or go fix something somewhere. The broken vending machines thing seems like a nice idea to get engineers out of their department, but it's not severe enough to warrant calling them much of the time. Most of the time, you're dealing with inanimate machines that respond predictably, which kind of ties into point 1

3. Different mindset. Engineers are people of action. They have all the tools at their disposal to get anywhere and do anything, only bureaucracy stops them. I've seen engineers get shouted at for going into certain places without asking. they believe they have a god given right to go anywhere in order to fix stuff, and they don't like being stopped. I've never met an engineer who likes paperwork, or requesting permission for things. Most of the CE's i've met are pretty laid back, and will do whatever they feel appropriate without filling out station modification forms or any other such impediments.

If you don't ask, you can't be refused.

4. Lack of respect. Kind of tying into other points. Engineering is out of the way, arcane and mysterious to most. Very few people ever go there unless they want to take equipment. People only call engineers when something's broken. And the whole overalls and hardhat image kind of ties in with notions about people of lower class. When a security officer brings down your assailant, or a surgeon repairs your lungs, you're both there after the fact, to express your gratitude. When an engineer saves your life, he's usually doing it on the other side of the station, and you might not even know about it. Very few show appreciation for their hard work

Last time i played engineer, i got shouted at by a doctor for leaving a door open. But nobody thanked me for setting up the engine. It kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

What are your thoughts on the matter? If you're not a regular engineer player, why not? what turns you off about the department?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Engineering is always playing Nations.

IDK I had a few engineering players but gravitated out of the department. The sass from engineers when I played my CE main, Sirasairot Uaekis, just had me gravitate out of it. I might try to go back since my people need me.

[Demonofthefall]

its the new engine that is scaring away all the old engineers who are use to the singularity engine.

[Fire and Glory]

its the new engine that is scaring away all the old engineers who are use to the singularity engine.

This basically, I REALLY don't feel like learning how to do Supermatter, even if it is deceptively easy or anything.

[Gollee]

its the new engine that is scaring away all the old engineers who are use to the singularity engine.

This basically, I REALLY don't feel like learning how to do Supermatter, even if it is deceptively easy or anything.

 

This, and general inactivity.

[Nikov]

Holy hell, what is so hard about the supermatter? Its the only engine built on an honest scientific principle instead of voodoo space magic.

[Dreamix]

Holy hell, what is so hard about the supermatter? Its the only engine built on an honest scientific principle instead of voodoo space magic.

Literally nothing.

It's just that people apparently do not like the supermatter. That's it. No matter how easy or hard it is, people just don't like it.

[Nanako]

Holy hell, what is so hard about the supermatter? Its the only engine built on an honest scientific principle instead of voodoo space magic.

 

I mean, mostly, yea. But it IS still built on voodoo space magic at the core.

The supermatter is a magic rock that, when heated, outputs more energy than was put into it, while apparently not being consumed

Or maybe it's canon that supermatter is just a really efficient fossil fuel and does get consumed eventually, i'm not 100% certain on that

[Gollee]

Fossil fuels do not have anywhere approaching the energy levels outputted by a singularity.

I assume that Supermatter is an exotic matter composite that is decaying slowly; delamination is where it violently returns to classic matter, releasing all it's stored energy, in much the same way as terranium; just bigger.

[moltenkore]

The supermatter can be setup correctly in under 10 minutes (5 is my record) compared with the singularity that can take 15+. People just seem to have a major issue with atmospherics viewing it as weird space magic.

As for interactions, engineers when not fixing exploded armouries can walk around and be quite social. Unlike other departments, an engineer's workplace is the entire station.

It is still my favourite department to play ever since I started SS13 and you'll often see Akela dashing about like a headless chicken or Khalid stumbling into medbay to chat up the psychiatrist.

[Nanako]

It is still my favourite department to play ever since I started SS13 and you'll often see Akela dashing about like a headless chicken or Khalid stumbling into medbay to chat up the psychiatrist.

 

I think he once spent a whole conversation staring at my ass

[Feorn]

Last time i played engineer, i got shouted at by a doctor for leaving a door open. But nobody thanked me for setting up the engine. It kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

What are your thoughts on the matter? If you're not a regular engineer player, why not? what turns you off about the department?

 

I was that doctor, and you have to remember, some characters are jerks and barging into medbay while the station's power isn't steady at all isn't going to make a jerk doctor happy.

[Keknar]

We seem to have pretty good engineering numbers during peak times when I've been around. Lowpop/dead hour is another story but it always has been like that. So I think currently playerwise were fine.

As for the SM, it's an easy engine to teach and use since everything to run it and power the station perfectly fine are all right there in the engine room at round start. And seconding the entire station is your workplace so you can be as social as you like, or as solitary as you like and never leaving engineering except for work/emergencies.

[Nikov]

The supermatter is a magic rock that, when heated, outputs more energy than was put into it, while apparently not being consumed

 

Like enriched uranium. It really is a nuclear pile without a control rod.

I've never noticed the fact, but the whole station really is our playground. That explains why I hate all the other jobs.

[Jboy2000000]

I think another source of the problem is that some engineers may just be 'gone.' When was the last time you ever met someone whose main character was an engineer? I can think of two people only. And when we switched over to new code, whole swaths of characters were cut away, and why would you go through the trouble of recreating a character that isn't your favourite (s)? I bet when the characters merge together, engineers will be on the rise again.

Also, I don't know about other people, but I used to play engi fairly often, but the rate at which engineering got immensely busy because antag round started becoming every single round, leaving little time to do anything fun, like building in the empty rooms, just drove me away, because I didn't feel like fixing breaches, broken brigs, and the 20 other things antags do 10 times every single round. That ties in with Nan's point number 1.

[Guest]

There's too few engineers nowanights because the SM requires some level of understanding of the atmospherics system and the code in which it tries to emulate actual gas physics. The singularity engine was effectively kidmode and it was quite simple to set-up, though it took ever so slightly longer as it required a bit more walking than the SM does.

IDK about the RP side of it. When I join engineering, I want to be an innovator or mad scientist type that creates atmos/engineering systems no one is supposed to either comprehend or understand. I like gaming the system a bit. I enjoy building autismforts but unfortunately we're kind of cockblocked from doing that in IC due to regulations in addition to the station directives. It's inherently limiting to gameplay and a funkiller, but no amount of complaining is ever going to convince anyone otherwise on that subject.

In the end, though, it ends up in me setting everything up to be super powergame optimal, but then nothing really engaging happens, not even a single bomb or breach given the state of sissy antagonism; the meta as it stands. I think other people have learned of this, decided that doing the same thing over and over again thinking "this time will be different" was kinda stupid and then just left.

That's kinda why there's no engineering enthusiasts here anymore. Engineering is effectively corked by cure-all solutions that were intended to stop actual OOC behavioral problems but ended up getting enforced to the point where they police even the mildest and even most benevolent cases.

tl;dr, we killed the fun out of engineering in the past and it's not likely we can bring it back to the point where autismforts will happen every round.

[Nanako]

There's too few engineers nowanights because the SM requires some level of understanding of the atmospherics system and the code in which it tries to emulate actual gas physics. The singularity engine was effectively kidmode and it was quite simple to set-up, though it took ever so slightly longer as it required a bit more walking than the SM does.

 

i don't see why this would be a downside though, i like the complexity of it. It's engaging to optimise.

the dragging canisters around is not fun though i really wish we had a phoron port right there in the room

I like gaming the system a bit. I enjoy building autismforts but unfortunately we're kind of cockblocked from doing that in IC due to regulations in addition to the station directives. It's inherently limiting to gameplay and a funkiller, but no amount of complaining is ever going to convince anyone otherwise on that subject.

Building forts does sound fun, it's a shame to see all the turrets and such go to waste. I don't think i've ever seen anyone build a turret on aurora. The problem is that requires energy weapons, so it's near impossible to do without notifying security, and any case where they might approve that is one they'd prefer to handle themselves anyway

I have an idea that might help remedy it: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5677

I would like to see engineering given more freedom, maybe there's a case to make that it should be fortified on account of all the sensitive things there, especially the engine

 

In the end, though, it ends up in me setting everything up to be super powergame optimal, but then nothing really engaging happens, not even a single bomb or breach given the state of sissy antagonism; the meta as it stands.

Can you clarify this statement a bit? I do see quite a bit of bombing.

You're saying sissy antagonism, i've also seen "antag hugbox" used, which i believe implies the opposite

I think other people have learned of this, decided that doing the same thing over and over again thinking "this time will be different" was kinda stupid and then just left.

I agree that setting up shield generators jut to not-get-attacked feels a little disappointing. I have seen quite a few situations of raiders bombing the station from the outside, although i've never seen a shield around at these times. I guess it just happens too seldomly to be worth preparing for?

Perhaps it could be remedied by making setup easier, such as having a dedicated shield room with the wiring and SMES all setup already

That's kinda why there's no engineering enthusiasts here anymore. Engineering is effectively corked by cure-all solutions that were intended to stop actual OOC behavioral problems but ended up getting enforced to the point where they police even the mildest and even most benevolent cases.

can you clarify some of these solutions?

[Feorn]

Shields are nifty, but I'd never set up a stationwide hull shield on a raiders/heist/mercenary or nukeops round as an engineer. That's way too powergamey for me.

As an antag engineer recently I set up a bubble shield, no one penetrated it all round, they had to trick me into letting them shuttle in.

Also Nanako, I spent nearly an hour teaching you about the engineering RCON, power systems, and shields. I don't think most players who come in to engineering get the opportunity to have someone teach them the ropes, IC or OOC, and few of the knowledgeable players are willing to teach. I've even run into some longtime engineering players who don't understand the quirks of setting input levels on SMES while they charge and accidentally run the engine room out of power.

The other side of it is that very rarely do I see an antag sabotage power systems. I gave it a shot the other day, pulsing an SMES grounding wire to explode APCs all over the station just to confirm it even works.

[Conservatron]

I'm a main engineer (Xullie)

RCON isn't that complicated, only took me shutting down station power once (oops) to figure it out

i always offer to teach new engineers the ropes, but i'm not as active as I used to be

[Carver]

If people get turned off by the engine I'd be surprised, considering you can set the station to run solely off solars. The reason I don't play Engineering is the sheer amount of bad eggs I've experienced in the department over the years of playing this game, along with a healthy mixture of bad memories concerning the department as a whole. I truly don't like the majority of characters Engineering attracts.

 

The supermatter can be setup correctly in under 10 minutes (5 is my record) compared with the singularity that can take 15+. People just seem to have a major issue with atmospherics viewing it as weird space magic.

Singularity took like five minutes tops. It was a matter of just not killing yourself with the containment field. SM is muuuuuch easier to fuck up with no idea of what you're doing. Though I do miss the regular occurrence of people releasing plasma by accident because they insisted on filling up those little tanks.

[SmokedFish]

I usually play whatever department is empty.

I learned from Team Fortress 2 to always pick the class which the "team" lacks. Cuz that's just the nice guy that I am.

Number of players

Also, it's hard to tell when the department is "trully" empty or not. I mean there could be 6 people on, and half of them SSD, one atmospherics, once apprentice, and one could be answering the call of nature.

Like the other day we had a traitor/ling round, both medical and engineering had only one person, so it was a tough choice.

The Engine.

Even I managed to understand how to set-up the engine, and I really ain't that smart.

A guide on our wiki would be nice, as rules do tend to change compared to the baywiki or other sites.

Jobs to do:

Really it usually goes like this when i go engineer : set up the engine, go set up solars, and if by then sh*t doesn't get real on the station and i do manage to finish all the solars, then theres not much to do really.

The idea that the engine would require regular maintenance is really what scares me. Thankfully i don't think it needs any.

[Jennalele]

My issue with Engineering right now is that it seems to be attracting a lot of balds/protobalds/dumbasses/assholes, generally the crowd I don't join to deal with. I used to play Sieverts regularly, but I really can't be assed to deal with the hassle anymore.

[Nikov]

Engineering has always struck me as a guild or a union hall where everyone trusts the people they know with their lives but all new faces are treated as life-threateningly stupid until proven otherwise. There are a lot of ways to get your co-workers killed, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Once you prove yourself, however, that same group will spacewalk naked to recover your corpse.

[Conservatron]

Engineering has always struck me as a guild or a union hall where everyone trusts the people they know with their lives but all new faces are treated as life-threateningly stupid until proven otherwise. There are a lot of ways to get your co-workers killed, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Once you prove yourself, however, that same group will spacewalk naked to recover your corpse.

 

basically this sums it up real well

although i think engineering is way safer than it has ever been. it has its pros and cons, and i always told new players to learn to play ss13 as an engineer so they can understand the underlying mechanics of the game. Back about a year ago I tried to organize an inservice training day, something like rudimentary engineering skills, beginner EVA/ CPR refresher course but literally nobody joined up in game

again, however, i think a major issue is that there just isn't enough for engineering to do. Its boring these days, our construction area is way off in maint so we can't even make a public expansion (although its better for nefarious purposes). Its just too easy to run everything from the control room.

[Dreamix]

Engineering has always struck me as a guild or a union hall where everyone trusts the people they know with their lives but all new faces are treated as life-threateningly stupid until proven otherwise. There are a lot of ways to get your co-workers killed, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Once you prove yourself, however, that same group will spacewalk naked to recover your corpse.

That's kinda true, I guess?

Unless I'm playing engineering myself, engineers usually just seem to be a bunch of asshole'y hardasses that think they're allowed to go about anywhere and do about anything, thinking they're gods and the station is their playground, just because they're so important to the station. Examples include hacking into departments without asking first.

Nonetheless, I enjoy some engineering characters, including Nikov's CE.