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Player Complaint: UnknownMurder and Cronac


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b]BYOND Key:[/b] Kaedwuff

Player Byond Key: Cronac, as Jay Varis, UnknownMurder as Alex Graves

Staff involved: N/A

Reason for complaint: This was a round where my character Ickthar Slithiss was a vampire, and so was LordRaven001, as Korlas Lassei. We discovered each other early on, I taught him some ropes of vamping, we sucked some blood, I enthralled Alberyk's Yinzr, and we began the process of attempting to take over the station. I attempted a 'request surrender, punish aggressors' stance, but this round was just FULL of people who wanted to get them some valids and tried their best to attack us before we could fight. Most of it was pretty stupid shit but really within the realm of IC poor decisions (Such as the RD printing a bunch of lasers and trying to teleport into the captain's office to shoot us, but mostly hitting our hostage HoS, causing him to eventually die). Two things, however, were immensely stupid and they reached into the realm of self-antaging and validhunting/lowrp nonense.


The first involves Alex Graves, and here are the relevant logs.

ADMIN LOG: UnknownMurder/(Alex Graves) used 'Freeform' core AI module on Vista V2(CyberstormFox)

ADMIN LOG: UnknownMurder/(Alex Graves) has given Vista V2 the inherent law: Ickthar Slithiss, Korlas Lassei, and Sslazhir Yinzr are no longer crew members to the station and is a threat to the station. They must be exterminated.


ADMIN LOG: UnknownMurder/(Alex Graves) used 'Freeform' core AI module on Vista V2(CyberstormFox)

ADMIN LOG: UnknownMurder/(Alex Graves) has given Vista V2 the inherent law: The Rank in Succession Must Be Followed By Ultimate Authority: Captain, Acting Captain, Head of Security, Chief Engineer, Chief Medical Officer, Research Director, and Head of Personnel. Ensure the task is complete. This law may ignore all other laws."


As you can see here, he decided to take it upon himself to modify the AI to focus on trying to murderbone us. I'd really like to say a lot of unkind things about the mentality that goes behind this, but I will try to just objectively state facts. I'm fairly certain no one who is not an antagonist should be uploading laws that proclaim them (the self-declared acting captain) able to give orders that supersede all laws, not to mention un-crewing three people and telling the AI to murder them.


The second particularly bad issue was Cronac, playing Jay Varis. This person was a doctor, and volunteered to help the wounded, regardless of allegiance. I thought this was pretty good roleplay for a doctor, and kind of a perk of allowing him to recover the injured rambos who had charged us. Except, after fucking around and failing to do surgery for nearly ten minutes, he revealed his ulterior motives and removed Lassei's heart, killing him instantly. Post round, he admitted it was something 'he had always wanted to do', and that some hilarious puns involving were involved later, or something. I don't know, but as a doctor being watched by two armed unathi as you treat a third that is their comrade, I don't see any reason why a doctor would EVER do this, except under the justification that 'it's okay to murder people under your care if antag'. I admit part of this was my fault, as I assumed that a person playing a doctor would not do something this shitty, but... aren't we supposed to have standards and medical ethics in a high roleplay server?


Approximate Date/Time: 4/23/2016, 12am-2:45am CST

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Our regulations specifically outlaw executions, which I know off-hand because I was the one that pushed Skull to make this a thing. In addition, this server expects that a qualified surgeon possess the following:

1) A sense of self-preservation.

2) A vague attachment to the ethics of being a doctor, which includes not murdering someone mid-surgery.


In addition, altering the AI's laws as a non-antag to specifically tell it to murder crew members counts as trying to execute them. We expect that a Chief Engineer that is not an antagonist generally avoid:

1) (Attempted) murder.

2) Unlawful Modification of AI/Cyborg Laws

3) Exceeding Official Powers.

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As usual ill poke the necessary parties to get their sides posted. The allegations in this thread are quite serious, there was some debate on this in the staff discord earlier. One particular note that irks me here, the whole of medical and security apparently planned for the doctor to kill him.


Shit like this happening though, people betraying antags mid-deal or the other way around is kinda why so many people (including me) just sont bother and kill all loose ends. That being said, i dont want to enforce a "every doctor must be a saint" mentality but i do you're kijda expected to not rip a liggers heart out.


Thoughts? Ill wait for unknownmurders side before i speak on his law upload at length.

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Where should I explain this?


Firstly, you Ligger Squad were armed to the teeth. Two officers, I've known is dead. Chief Engineer was with me. But, I will say this...


I never authorized/told Research Director to rescue me nor have I heard any plans of rescue. I never told the Doctor to cut out your heart (I was dead at that time) because of the Research Director. I told Cyborgs to stand down, they didn't listen and thus breaking Law 5 and I knew Yinzr was capable of destroying the cyborgs and already did so.


The thing is... Firstly, I believed we could take on the Ligger Squad, unfortunately, I thought wrong. This is the part where I assumed Acting Captain with endorsement of CE, and support of CMO and RD. We've faxed Central Command, however due to the severity of the Ligger Squad, I had completely forgotten about it. ERT came while I was dying. You know that I can't send out a scientist militias or Engineering. My hands were tied up, I looked to the aid of the Cyborgs.


Not sure if this clears everything up about my actions. I am not involved with RD's attempt to free me nor did I tell him to. I am not involved with telling the Doctor to cut out his heart, everyone poked fun about it in Deadsay, LordRaven seemed to be shocked and enjoying himself.


Edit: You know I can't pull out a gun and suddenly join a fight that I will lose. Also, to put bluntly, I did not like what the AI was doing, endangering my life just for the Ligger Squad and I regreted the action as the AI is attempting to open Bridge-to-Captain airlock to depressurize... So, yeah.


Reviewing your (Kaed's) post more in depth, you were not crew members anymore due to the fact you were able to take down Security with just three people, you being included. Also, in the rules you haven't noticed the succession of Command Officials; the Captain was in front of the 'Acting Captain' which is me, however the Captain had not yet to log on. I'm not frankly sure what is up with AI (probably) disobeying the ERT. The AI showed lack of communications as I have heard someone pointed this out in Deadsay.

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The HoS does not have the authority to denote crew/non-crew. They are on the manifest, they are crew and frankly the whole crew and non crew issue is silly. Sure executions are illegal but im willing to bet those pencil pushing desk jockies who made those laws didnt account for a ligger squad of vampire slaves.


If its true they had already killed multiple people then.... Frankly you do what you have to do to protect the rest of the crew.

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Please Note This:

No Liggers were executed by the AI or Borgs however the Security Borg did break one vampire slave's bones and was still managing to be alive. I am sure you will be able to see me telling them to stand down thus breaking Law 5.


Medical Doctor/Surgeon executing that Ligger was not my work and is a separate case. I am not associated with Cronac. I'm not sure what the Doctor/Surgeon was trying to gamble.


Oh, people did die.

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Hello! I was the doc in this game. I actually didn't fail surgery, I just lacked the tools to fix everything (including the worst injury). In regards to the heart removal, I admit that I always wanted to remove a heart in-game. That being said, I didn't do it out of nowhere. When I was in surgery with the lizard (with the intent to fully fix him), The AI messaged me and said that he had to exterminate the lizards. Shortly after, the firelocks dropped and the ERT came storming in, and there was shooting etc. I was unsure if the AI was going to vent the room or something (OOC adrenaline at this point), so I messaged the AI that I'd do the honors instead and I removed the heart at that point. With that being said, it was shit-tier RP and I should have just left them sedated and allowed the ERT to take over.

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If its true they had already killed multiple people then.... Frankly you do what you have to do to protect the rest of the crew.

 

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with this.


This is one of the most frustrating parts about attempting to be an antagonist - this cycle of validizing justification. Let me tell you what actually happened here.


We marched into security, armed to the teeth, and demanded surrender. Two people, a warden and a detective, who were massively underarmed, ignored all context around them and challenged us. The skrellwarden demanded we stand down and surrender, then when we laughed in his face, he began firing on us. We returned fire, and he was reduced to minced calamari that stumbled off before falling over in pain crit - not dead. The detective also wordlessly tried shooting at us with his rubber bullets, and also got a machine gun salvo, but did not die. I understand from being told later the detective got banned for griefing in a separate incident in the round. There was a third officer who arrived on the station in the middle of all this, and walked right by the two of us heading into security to arm up. Given that she just joined, I opted for the OOC decision to let her pass. (later, she repaid this by wordlessly attacking me in a maintenance tunnel the second she ran into me, despite offers to negotiate. Then, she died due to the ensuing gunfight. Gratitude.)


In any case, I allowed medical officials to pass by and retrieve the critically injured warden and detective, making a public announcement that I was showing mercy, and no one else needed to die if they would surrender. If they died due to insufficient medical care, or because that one borg decided to drag the warden in entirely the opposite direction of the medbay without putting them on a roller bed, you can't lay that on me, it's on them ignoring threat level to attempt valids, or on incompetent borg. My only role was telling Yinzr not to execute them when they were down. It was roughly a full five minutes later before the borgs loitering nervously nearby announced there was a law change. So, what I'm getting from this is, it doesn't seem to matter HOW much restraint you show, no one will ever try to negotiate with you, and when you retaliate against blind justice attempts, it further justifies taking any and all action against you, including subverting the station AI? Does no one ever consider that maybe stopping the mad hunt against the hostile unathi and giving in might be a better way to protect the station crew? Probably not, because no one ever wants to admit they lose, instead they reach for bigger guns and endanger themselves and the crew around them by empowering the AI to attempt murder on specific individuals, or call an ERT (an ERT who throws a chloral grenade into a room they can't fully see inside, then fires wildly into the unknown outside of their vision range with lasers, unsure of where their targets even are, or if they're all hostile) because they can't handle it anymore. Possibly, they're letting metaknowledge about how they heard Yinzr 'murderboned' security that one time I enthralled him on a separate round color their perception, and assuming that's the same case here, and irrationally panicking, I don't know.


I offered the crew surrender at least a half dozen times, several of them AFTER the show of force, and instead am treated to a full on attempt to murderbone us through any means necessary. This was poor roleplay, and valid-hunting in the most extreme sense. Give no quarter to the antagonist scum, and violate as many protocols as you want to because you are 'justified', they 'killed' a couple of your officers. UnknownMurder/Graves doesn't really have a leg to stand on here, he was warned just yesterday in a separate incident about his 'win at any cost' behavior when he leaped up after surrendering to an unathi in a breacher suit with a laser cannon, to baton them down, ignoring being shot with said laser canon multiple times in the process. Considering that event occurred well after the one THIS complaint is about, he clearly hasn't changed or learned anything.

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Allow me to break up pieces that I can remember and are not exaggerated.

 


We marched into security, armed to the teeth, and demanded surrender. Two people, a warden and a detective, who were massively underarmed, ignored all context around them and challenged us. The skrellwarden demanded we stand down and surrender, then when we laughed in his face, he began firing on us. We returned fire, and he was reduced to minced calamari that stumbled off before falling over in pain crit - not dead. The detective also wordlessly tried shooting at us with his rubber bullets, and also got a machine gun salvo, but did not die.



To my roleplay knowledge, I did not know if they were not dead or were dead, I do not think they were communicating to me since they were busy taking you down, I am not going to ghost and check on the situation then return to my body. AI may have been reporting, "Security Department are Down" and et cetera which has gotten the Command shitting their pants.

 

Given that she just joined, I opted for the OOC decision to let her pass. (later, she repaid this by wordlessly attacking me in a maintenance tunnel the second she ran into me, despite offers to negotiate. Then, she died due to the ensuing gunfight. Gratitude.)

 

Was this IC Character Jade? If not, oh well. Nevermind the question.

 

Possibly, they're letting metaknowledge about how they heard Yinzr 'murderboned' security that one time I enthralled him on a separate round color their perception, and assuming that's the same case here, and irrationally panicking, I don't know.


Everyone knows how Yinzr is strong against Security on different reasons. Yinzr is well known, I can't blame the Security for that.

 

I offered the crew surrender at least a half dozen times, several of them AFTER the show of force, and instead am treated to a full on attempt to murderbone us through any means necessary.

 

And I have ordered the AI and the Cyborgs to stand down, what did they do? Before this, I had inserted a back door law that allows me to overrule the law to stand down. What did AI and Cyborg do? They charged in. Also, I believe I have heard Nanako 'accidentally' starting the gun fight. Before the Cyborgs came in, I had attempted to negotiate with you, you kept on saying something.. "I don't have time." "It's out of window because ERT". something along the lines while ERT was packing up. ERT were the actions of the Chief Engineer and presumably the Research Director. I listened to everything you said, you made no such demands other than telling the AI & Security to back off and bring the Medical in the Captain's Office.

 

UnknownMurder/Graves doesn't really have a leg to stand on here, he was warned just yesterday in a separate incident about his 'win at any cost' behavior when he leaped up after surrendering to an unathi in a breacher suit with a laser cannon, to baton them down, ignoring being shot with said laser canon multiple times in the process. Considering that event occurred well after the one THIS complaint is about, he clearly hasn't changed or learned anything.

 

This is a different case. I was talked to about it and have received my punishment by a particular staff. By the way, I did surrender because

  • I was the Acting Captain and the target.
  • I portrayed Fear RP
  • I was cornered near the Bridge, locked out by the AI who was not listening to me.
  • Three unathis took down Security and demanded me to surrender at gun point. (And I did.)

However if you want to listen which I am going to sympathize that annoyed feeling with you. If you don't actually care of our feelings to the situation, skip this part. You are not the only one whose feelings are ruined.

  • AI did not obey my orders and had proceeded to attempt to attack Ligger Squad or influence others to attack Ligger Squad
  • Science Militias led by Research Director
  • Emergency Response Team was called upon the Capturing of Alex Graves.

 

Conclusion:

You are angry at me because I had subverted the AI to the Crew's favor leading up to my capture which I had ordered AI to stand down. if not. What is your problem? You do not seem to be making an attempt to discuss this that we reach to a consensus, I'm available mostly during daytime on Discord; I'm willingly to converse with a 'discussion moderator' on stand lines (Like Political Debate) if you are willingly to resolve the complaint, can we do that? It's a request that you can deny. I have a strong feeling this can be done.

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I was involved in this.


I was one of the cyborgs.

I announced my new laws over the common channel, which was an accident. I'd meant to state them in local chat for someone (roboticist i think) to hear, and i pressed the wrong button


I was also one of the borgs that broke into the captains office attempting to rescue the HoS

I want to make it very clear that firing on the lizards was an accident. I misunderstood how the hostage-taking fire mode works. I clicked on one to point the gun at him, and when ordered to stand down, i clicked him again thinking that it would remove the targeting from him. It fired instead, i didn't think that would happen


After that there wasn't any going back so i just tried to eliminate one as per my fifth law, iirc. The damage i did to him was what cause him to be taken for surgery later.


Also, Dr Varis murdering one of the lizards mid surgery was amazing. It was a perfectly opportunistic way to kill someone, using once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and in-character skills. It was a lot more interesting, RP wise, than the research director trying to shoot them.


Of course it was a breach of medical ethics, there should probably be an IC punishment for that. But OOCly, it created great drama for the round, and is a high point that will be remembered for a long time. Getting an antag onto the surgerty table is something that could never happen outside of a heavy RP environment, that's something pretty unique

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  • 2 weeks later...

Also, Dr Varis murdering one of the lizards mid surgery was amazing. It was a perfectly opportunistic way to kill someone, using once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and in-character skills. It was a lot more interesting, RP wise, than the research director trying to shoot them.


Of course it was a breach of medical ethics, there should probably be an IC punishment for that. But OOCly, it created great drama for the round, and is a high point that will be remembered for a long time. Getting an antag onto the surgerty table is something that could never happen outside of a heavy RP environment, that's something pretty unique

 

I have to categorically disagree with this. You should not encourage, congratulate, or reward people for behavior like this. This wasn't done to increase drama (the player admitted it was just something they always wanted to do), and it didn't increase roleplay in any way. What did was kill an at the time helpless individual, aided and abetted by my naivete in assuming a surgeon would not do something this shitty, when there are two armed unathi who can kill him literally feet away. In fact, I did not even know that they were dead until much later, when I snuck in to recover them after escaping the ERT, at the time having assumed that they were just being kept on perma-anesthetic, so I don't know what 'drama' you think that caused. No one except the doctor and whatever medical staff he told noticed, because we were either fighting shortly after or during when it happened, and then 2/3 of us were already dead when the act was revealed.


It is functionally no different from a security officer walking up to a raider in pain crit and laser them to death before moving on (this is, incidentally, something I have seen happen on multiple occasions, despite it being against security policy). Execution/opportunistic kills are what you should see in LOW-roleplay servers, not here.


I guess this is my fault, though. I keep going into antagonist rounds expecting more out of people, and then consistently being disappointed, both by the actions of other players, and by people just generally shrugging and saying 'hey man it's just a game, wasn't that pretty cool if you think about it?" when I try to call out particular bad behavior. Maybe I should start taking Alberyk's repeated advice and just murder everyone to be sure? I'd rather not, but I don't seem to be getting any good out of showing restraint, ever.


I keep hearing that bay is an 'antag hugbox', but I'll I'm seeing here is the exact opposite: It's okay to do everything you can to remove the antags from the round, even up to kah-lee-mahing their heart out for kicks, because it's a 'once in a lifetime opportunity'.

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This wasn't done to increase drama

You weren't reading deadchat.

it was an amazing, rare and memorable thing for us to watch

 

and it didn't increase roleplay in any way.

The RP was the situation leading up to it, the medical staff tricking you into there

 

It is functionally no different from a security officer walking up to a raider in pain crit and laser them to death before moving on

No it's extremely different, because it's rare. Security lasers people to death all the time, intentionally or not.


Surgeons killing patients on the operating table intentionally is rare. Very rare.

Execution/opportunistic kills are what you should see in LOW-roleplay servers, not here.

This can't happen on a low RP server.


In a low RP environment, you guys would just operate on each other because of any lack of IC knowledge restrictions, nothing stops you from having characters that are master soldiers, engineers, surgeons and scientists all in one. the restrictions here forced you to seek outside help


In a low RP environment you treat everyone as a player, and therefore assume everyone is going to kill you whenever possible just because you're on the other team. Only because of the high RP environment did you believe a surgeon would hold to medical ethics, which caused you guys to trust medical and let your guard down sufficiently for this to happen



This was a unique and interesting kill that used the game mechanics well, and could only work in this environment.

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A bunch of nonsense about something being interesting to watch meaning it is okay to do

 

I don't understand you, Nanako, and I feel like your tendency to support things is very halfhazard and inconsistent. Nor do I quite understand this viewpoint you have that the game exists as a soap opera for deadchat to watch. This complaint involves a small party of people, the affected antagonist and the surgeon. Conjecture about what a unique and interesting experience it was for the ghosts watching is completely irrelevant to the point. The points of the matter are thus:


-A surgeon decided to murder a helpless patient on the operating table

-This surgeon had no given authority to do this in any conceivable sense, thus making it a form of self-(anti)antagging

-The surgeon was being watched by armed unathi while he was doing this, and was therefore risking his life for the sake of getting a valid, thus ignoring a threat to themselves to pursue a personal agenda, much like security officers who baton rush armed antagonists


This other stuff you are bringing up is speculative opinions by uninvolved parties who sat on the sidelines metaphorically eating popcorn. It did not affect you, or them, so you do not have a stake in this.

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Nor do I quite understand this viewpoint you have that the game exists as a soap opera for deadchat to watch.

The game is a soap opera for EVERYONE to watch

That's the whole point of a heavy RP server. The role of antagonists here isn't for them to kill everyone and win, or to win by defeating the antags. They exist to add conflict and drama to a round


There is no reward for winning or losing, the only thing you get from any round, regardless of the result, are the memories you take away from it.


His action created a memorable moment for everyone involved. IT was memorable because it's rare. if it were more common, it wouldn't be special, and might become a problem.


This was a case of an antag dying in an interesting way. You should be celebrating the fact that you were a part of it, not complaining because it stopped you from winning

 

This complaint involves a small party of people, the affected antagonist and the surgeon. Conjecture about what a unique and interesting experience it was for the ghosts watching is completely irrelevant to the point. The points of the matter are thus:

His action affected the whole station. It especially affected the ERT who turned up two minutes later, and now had one less enemy to fight.

 

-A surgeon decided to murder a helpless patient on the operating table

A temporarily-helpless patient who was a member of a violent terrorist gang

-This surgeon had no given authority to do this in any conceivable sense, thus making it a form of self-(anti)antagging

He had the god-given authority of defense of life and property. ICly the character might be reprimanded for getting involved and putting himself at risk, but i very much doubt he'd be charged with murder

 

-The surgeon was being watched by armed unathi while he was doing this, and was therefore risking his life for the sake of getting a valid, thus ignoring a threat to themselves to pursue a personal agenda, much like security officers who baton rush armed antagonists

Or he was making a noble sacrifice for the greater good. The person he killed was a vampire, wasn't he? As a surgeon, he killed the patient using his surgical skills, not by displaying any out-of-character talent with guns or weaponry. I would definitely have been with you if the surgeon had pulled out a gun and shot the patient. but that's not what happened.


Either way, due to a combination of your personal incompetence (you didn't watch him and thus didn't realise what had happened) and you both being stressed for time due to hostile forces bearing down on you, the surgeon was not executed. It was a calculated risk that paid off.


Even if you guys had decided to kill him, unathi, especially in armour, are slow, and Ickthar Slithiss is slower still due to his limp, he had an easy escape route behind him, through OR2 storage, maintenance, and up the east side of medical. Doors that he had access to and you afaik didn't (maybe you had the captains ID, i doubt yinzr did though). I doubt you could have chased him even if you were willing. You'd have time to fire one, maybe two shots, with no guarantee of hitting, before he broke line of sight.

 

This other stuff you are bringing up is speculative opinions by uninvolved parties who sat on the sidelines metaphorically eating popcorn. It did not affect you, or them, so you do not have a stake in this.

One of your friends died. it happens. It's no more fair than walking into a room and being stunmuteganked by a changeling who happened to be there

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This argument is becoming circular and pointless, and has become us dissecting each others replies and disagreeing with them. Since no one else is commenting on the thread anymore, I assume that no one particularly cares about the actions taken.


In the future, suppose I will just use the antag excuse that I know how to do surgery myself and write yet another roleplay opportunity off the list because evidently extending a little trust to non-antagonists is a mistake and I shouldn't ever do it again. Alberyk has been telling me this for ages, I guess I was just too idealistic.

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This argument is becoming circular and pointless, and has become us dissecting each others replies and disagreeing with them. Since no one else is commenting on the thread anymore, I assume that no one particularly cares about the actions taken.


In the future, suppose I will just use the antag excuse that I know how to do surgery myself and write yet another roleplay opportunity off the list because evidently extending a little trust to non-antagonists is a mistake and I shouldn't ever do it again. Alberyk has been telling me this for ages, I guess I was just too idealistic.

 

Character complaints are dead last in my priority to deal with. I simply do not have the time for the effort they require. anyways i kinda agree with jackboot here. It only makes sense for SOME semblance of ethics to exist for doctors. Ripping out the heart of an antag who trusted you to operate is such a bizarre breach of ethics for even the most nefarious doctors aboard. Even OOC its kind of a dick move, not something i think we should allow.

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anyways, Unless you have IT training or you are an RD/CE/roboticist you shouldnt be uploading new laws to anyone. That is not knowledge that comes par for the course as a head of staff.

 

I didn't know this was a thing as I saw Captain, HOS, and CMO being able to upload laws.


Also, I looked at my old records. I already had it jotted down that my character knows IT. (Also, I've been wanting to start IT Department. )


Then i guess you're fine on that as well.

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anyways, Unless you have IT training or you are an RD/CE/roboticist you shouldnt be uploading new laws to anyone. That is not knowledge that comes par for the course as a head of staff.

 

I didn't know this was a thing as I saw Captain, HOS, and CMO being able to upload laws.


Also, I looked at my old records. I already had it jotted down that my character knows IT. (Also, I've been wanting to start IT Department. )


Then i guess you're fine on that as well.

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You think it would be basic for command staff who are able to fuck with the AI and it's laws to be trained on how to upload/work it.


Pretty shitty if command can't go in and reset the AI during an ion storm because no RD and the captain, hos and other command gets bwoinked for not jotting down a five second note in their employment record.

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You think it would be basic for command staff who are able to fuck with the AI and it's laws to be trained on how to upload/work it.


Pretty shitty if command can't go in and reset the AI during an ion storm because no RD and the captain, hos and other command gets bwoinked for not jotting down a five second note in their employment record.

 

Then you find someone with the IT skills or work around your AI being the dungeon master for the shift :P. Anyways i think this is resolved now, HoS made decisions that weren't necessarily and the doctor was spoken too ingame about ethics and why they really shouldn't do what he did outside EXTREME and extenuating circumstances. You can always ahelp and ask.

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