Spawning at the NTCC Odin:

[LordFowl]

In development of the New Map a suggestion was posed to me one evening in the Discord chat by a user who's tag I happen to forget. The suggestion was that at the beginning of the shift everyone should spawn at the NTCC Odin, gear up, and then head to their jobs on the arrival shuttle. Late joins would also follow this system. After some discussion with Skull, he informed me that this idea had been posed before, and that I should ask the community for a final opinion. I unfortunately could not find any evidence of previous discussions, but let's hope I can pursue the latter suggestion more successfully.

This suggestion can take two forms; The "Aurora" method, which I outlined briefly above, and the "Urist McStation Method", which I will outline below.

The "Aurora" method, in more exact detail, would be that at shift-start everyone would spawn with everyone of their department in a segment of the NTCC Odin mapped for this specific purpose. Security would spawn with security, science with science, etcetera. Heads of Staff would spawn together, in a rare moment of all of them being in the same room at the same time. Potentially they would all spawn in civilian clothing, and be tasked with changing to their uniforms. Actual gear would probably remain on the Aurora. They could also simply spawn fully clothed and just begin filing out. Late joins would spawn in civilian clothing also, and be tasked with gearing up and getting to their post ASAP, those damn sleepyheads.

The "Urist McStation Method" would have it where at round-start everyone spawns normally on the Aurora, as they do now and have always done. The only change is that late-joins, instead of magically teleporting to the sedentary arrivals "shuttle", would spawn at the NTCC Odin. They could either be in civilian clothing or in uniform, however at this point it would be more sensible to just have them in uniform.

An example of how the prepatory wing might look, taken from Tau Ceti Classic (Which uses the Urist McStation method)

 

The primary advantage of this new proposed system is that it is much more immersive. It also potentially allows closed coordination between the crew, as they'll all spawn together, as opposed to scattered throughout the station and even throughout departments. It also adds an additional layer of spawn protection, instead of leaving spawning crew totally vulnerable to the elements, without even any information to assist them.

A potential disadvantage is that it adds another step to entering the game fully, and could become stale if player's do not communicate and co-operate, using the opportunity to its full advantage.

The arrivals shuttle itself would be one-way, to prevent people from creating a "ghetto" escape shuttle, and just retreating to the Odin if the mythical shit hits the proverbial fan.

Should the arrivals shuttle somehow become stuck, as shuttles sometimes do, people at the preparatory wing could hit an emergency button to request a NTCC Odin maintenance technician, who would arrive in 3-4 business days to physically observe the damages.

Currently, there is no plan to change or alter the mechanics of gateway or cryogenic latejoin spawning.

Please, post any comments questions and concerns, and be sure to vote in the poll.

I will be analyzing the data and presenting it to Skull when he returns from his vacation, aka in one week.

[Zundy]

So to confirm, you can still spawn as normal via cryo and gateway?

If so I'm 100% for this for the reasons you've already stated.

In my case I have a stake in cryo spawn remaining as I have characters that actually dwell on station for month long assignments.

[LordFowl]

Currently, there is no plan to change or alter the mechanics of gateway or cryogenic latejoin spawning.

 

Correct. The entire purpose of these two methods of spawning is to canonically bypass the Odin, and to revert this would devalue them mechanically.

[Nanako]

Will radios work from central to aurora, as they currently do?

What kind of equipment will you place on the odin for taking along?

[LordFowl]

The NTCC Odin is equipped with its own telecomms system and this is not currently planned to change. As such, provider both of the telecomm networks are active, it will be possible to communicate between the prep wing and the station.

If the Urist method is employed, the only equipment available on the Odin will be generic civilian equipment.

If the Aurora method is employed, equipment such as uniforms, departmental headsets, and other accessories. Engineers might have access to tools, security might have acces to holobadges and such, and etcetera. The plan is not to shift all of a department's equipment to the Odin, but rather just enough to involve a prepatory time where the entirety of a department is in a single place at once.

[Taintedglory]

Was the one who suggested this to fowl. Pretty much aurora method all the way. we should have an IC chance to not get ganked upon joining the server. At least with his way we can rp on Odin when narsie has risen or malf has sucked all the air from arrivals. Or yknow, code red why would nt still send assistants

[Nanako]

What's to stop everyone acting as a ghetto-ERT though, tooling up, and jumping onto the station ready to kick ass?

And there's some logical incongruities there too. If central can hear normal radio communications, then why is faxing for an ERT needed? Why are fax machines even needed at all? Why can't whoever spawns there just go up to the desk and say "Hey, everyone is screaming about being murdered up there, you guys should send up a commando team to investigate"

Fax machines are supposed to enable comms over a long distance using bluespace tech, their existence makes no sense if odin can hear station comms

[LordFowl]

What's to stop everyone acting as a ghetto-ERT though, tooling up, and jumping onto the station ready to kick ass?

And there's some logical incongruities there too. If central can hear normal radio communications, then why is faxing for an ERT needed? Why are fax machines even needed at all? Why can't whoever spawns there just go up to the desk and say "Hey, everyone is screaming about being murdered up there, you guys should send up a commando team to investigate"

Fax machines are supposed to enable comms over a long distance using bluespace tech, their existence makes no sense if odin can hear station comms

 

If a sufficient amount of latejoiners arrive simultaneously and listen to each other and the situation long-enough to co-operate and form a cohesive response team that is somehow effective with access only to uniforms and toolboxes, then I would consider the system a success, not a failure. The individual rules those people may or may not have broken falls out of my purview as a mapper.

As for the latter concern, that falls outside of the scope of this suggestion. There could be a million lore justifications, but the simple fact is that is how its always been, and that is how it currently is, and this specific suggestion does not propose changing that.

[Nanako]

As for the latter concern, that falls outside of the scope of this suggestion. There could be a million lore justifications, but the simple fact is that is how its always been, and that is how it currently is, and this specific suggestion does not propose changing that.

 

I disagree, i think this suggestion drags that issue into the scope.

Radio communication between station and odin has never made sense, but it's an oversight that nobody cared about before because odin was only accessible for a minute or two at the end of the round. People just use the inter-station comms to say goodbye to the synthetics or swear at antags they left behind.

Making it possible for people to spawn on odin raises this question

The easiest and cleanest solution is just to make the comms from the station not be heard on Odin. Only faxes and station announcements should be visible while you're there

However, it'd be an interesting idea to have a public fax machine on odin that people could use to fax the station. Generally so they can contact their head of staff and ask what they should bring

[Taintedglory]

Now that I am home I can do a full thought process.

Spawning at Odin has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Pros:

-It allows people who want to RP but do not want to get involved with the over arching antag behavior happening on station. Players can log in and enjoy some time on the Odin instead of being murdered upon arrival and then have to sit it out until next round because the round is hostile

-You can get a moment to catch your breath and brace yourself for what is about to or is happening on station. Instead of being thrown into the situation upon arriving and barely having time to even load the game, you can take a second to get your hand on your keyboard and your bearings straight.

-The ability to customize your loadout before coming on station, so you can get that fashion just right and not spend your time on station doing it, and leaving that jumpsuit on the floor.

-The ability to naturally filter Griefers and No-RPers. Most of the time these people are looking for instant gratification in their actions, and the fact that they will have a barrier upon entering the round will make it better. 9/10 they will walk around, confused why they cant access their weapons, and just SSD right there.

Cons:

-It'll allow some sneaky shit to be done if not mapped correctly. Can spawn in as assistant and follow someone into the security room and grab a security uniform.

-If not done correctly with mapping, people can take slots and then SSD, and no one can get those slots for the rest of the round. Needs cyrotubes/admin involvement if that happens.

-Could help in players Metaing and have them make Mini-ERT squads, which could cause problems all on its own.

[Guest]

The first option is rather awesome and interesting for start-of-shift roleplay. There's probably the matter of traitors and so on buying gear at the start of the round to attack people with, but frankly, it wouldn't be an issue given the mass crowd of people that would spawn at the start. A crew-based antagonist would likely be better off keeping it on the DL until after.

To address the issue regarding ERT equipment looting: It's rather simple, the area will be mapped so it is separate and locked off from the ERT section of the Odin. ERT only deploy via the shuttle anyway, or in the near future, likely via drop pods onto the asteroid. And everything is locked off via access anyway, as mentioned.

 

And there's some logical incongruities there too. If central can hear normal radio communications, then why is faxing for an ERT needed? Why are fax machines even needed at all? Why can't whoever spawns there just go up to the desk and say "Hey, everyone is screaming about being murdered up there, you guys should send up a commando team to investigate"

 

Because any fool can go and do that, there's plenty of pretty good reasons for why heads of staff have to authenticate an ERT call.

[Dreviore]

Unless it's changed Central can't (IC) hear comms unless they're onboard the station.

[Mofo1995]

Unless it's changed Central can't (IC) hear comms unless they're onboard the station.

This is still correct WITH the exception of command channel.

That said, I'm a really big fan of the idea of starting at central and going to station. I was never a fan of just magically spawning in the workplace. It does come with the drawback of taking up some of the time economy of a given round though. Antagonists typically have about a two hour window to create and carry out an entire plot of their design before everyone will get bored and call CT. It will be interesting to see how this changes the time-meta, and if antags feel the crunch on time to work with.

[Nikov]

I'm not in favor of this. Five minutes spent putting our clothes on and waiting for the shuttle to come back and pick us up is five minutes spent round after round doing some routine series of clicks. I don't see this improving actual play for most people beyond the novelty of it. Furthermore, won't some people just stay on the Odin and chair-RP or try being an antag on the Odin? It seems this muddies the water between in-play and out-of-play, since the Odin is a no-conflict zone typically. Sure we can just ban people for it, but its another rule for a dubiously interesting hassle and delay getting to the station to even start setting up the supermatter.

[Nanako]

I think nikov has a good point, too.

This idea would certainly add realism, but would it add fun? Repetitive actions that you have to do every round aren't good imo

[Zundy]

Moot point as you can bypass it completely with cryo and gateway.

If people stay on the Odin doing nothing (both non antag and antag) then clearly this isn't the game for them. I think an RP instant messaging group is more up their alley.

[Jboy2000000]

I don't think this is something that people should spend time doing. The map has been a long time coming, and adding more little things that people ultimately don't care about, or contest, or can bypass should hold it off any longer.

[Zundy]

Woah there bold eagle. It's 17-4 towards people wanting this and one of the mappers themselves started the thread and they're for it.

Let's not be intellectually dishonest and say no one wants it and it'll get in the way of the mapping team.

[Arrow768]

I have a few ideas to address these issues:

Communication with Odin, Radio Range, Fax for ERT:

Just make a policy that all requests to Central Command need to be routed through the proper channels.

I know a few administrative bodies that wont even consider your request unless its comes in via a proper channel in the proper format.

(Try to e-mail a governmental body in Austria something without it being signed with a qualified digital signature that complies with the SigG §4 Abs 1. They are very likely to just ignore it)

People staying there for a extended period of time:

If someone doesn't leave after a total of 5 min send a automatically generated message to them that they will be removed shortly

If they are there after a total of 7min message them again and the admin/mod channel

And if they are there after a total of 10min delete the char from the game and grant them a respawn after 10 min.

It should not be too hard to check what items that person has on them and re-add these items back to the vending machines

-> Prevents Chair RP

-> Prevents SSD from taking up slots

-> Removes the ready-up then ssd people quickly

Ghetto-ERT:

If they manage to get enough people together within 7 minutes, gear up and coordinate properly, then good job

Ghetto ERT is pretty much prevented by hard-limiting the time they can stay on the arrivals station

[Guest]

I don't think this is something that people should spend time doing. The map has been a long time coming, and adding more little things that people ultimately don't care about, or contest, or can bypass should hold it off any longer.

 

[CakeIsOssim]

Fully against this. People joining the round without actually joining the round, and saying "nah I'm staying aboard the Odin today!" will lead to more and more people doing it. The station will become a dead zone, with nothing happening but chair RP aboard central command. Along with that, and that I have more faith in the community than that, this just adds a convoluted step to entering the round that is unnecessary and flashy. Once the shuttle leaves, what about the late joins? Who flies the shuttle? Is everyone a shuttle pilot? If the arrivals shuttle is a one way trip, how do late joins get to the station without using cryogenics or the gateway? This is why I believe that magically spawning on the station is much easier, better for game play, and isn't even that hard to explain IC.

[Nanako]

LF Has confirmed that he wont be disabling comms between odin and station, and people seem to agree with it. For this reason, i'm against this idea.

Allowing comms between odin and exodus is nonsensical because:

1. They are light years apart, traversing between them is only feasible via bluespace shuttle which is FTL technology. That's not how comms work. This is the reason we have fax machines, they're advanced bluespace relays that allow long distance communication, with limitations. Allowing comms between the stations completely negates the purpose of the fax machines

2. If Odin can hear comms, then a whole lot of other things stop making sense. Why would they casually sit around and listen while command staff talk about bloodcults taking over the station, or crazed AIs/mercenaries threatening to destroy it all with nuclear weapons. It's absurd that they'd just let these things happen and lose a station worth billions unless some people go through a proper channel to call an ERT.

3. Allowing comms between them will lead to more metagaming. Instead of people spawning into a dangerous situation with no IC knowledge, they get time to listen and prepare, and everyone will board the station knowing exactly whats going on, what gear to sprint towards, and who to validhunt as soon as they're armed.

4. As cake says, it will also discourage people from actually going to the station. Besides chair RP on Odin, there's also the question of 'Why would your unarmed civilian character knowingly go to work when it's under siege from terrorists or at imminent threat of destruction?'. We never had this problem because previously people arrived with no knowledge of on-station events, due to communication with Odin supposedly being limited to faxes between command staff and NT higherups that normal workers have no knowledge of.

This is a lot of problems, and it's being implemented badly , as long as inter-station comms are allowed, this is a terrible idea

[Mofo1995]

LF Has confirmed that he wont be disabling comms between odin and station, and people seem to agree with it. For this reason, i'm against this idea.

Allowing comms between odin and exodus is nonsensical because:

1. They are light years apart, traversing between them is only feasible via bluespace shuttle which is FTL technology. That's not how comms work. This is the reason we have fax machines, they're advanced bluespace relays that allow long distance communication, with limitations. Allowing comms between the stations completely negates the purpose of the fax machines

2. If Odin can hear comms, then a whole lot of other things stop making sense. Why would they casually sit around and listen while command staff talk about bloodcults taking over the station, or crazed AIs/mercenaries threatening to destroy it all with nuclear weapons. It's absurd that they'd just let these things happen and lose a station worth billions unless some people go through a proper channel to call an ERT.

3. Allowing comms between them will lead to more metagaming. Instead of people spawning into a dangerous situation with no IC knowledge, they get time to listen and prepare, and everyone will board the station knowing exactly whats going on, what gear to sprint towards, and who to validhunt as soon as they're armed.

4. As cake says, it will also discourage people from actually going to the station. Besides chair RP on Odin, there's also the question of 'Why would your unarmed civilian character knowingly go to work when it's under siege from terrorists or at imminent threat of destruction?'. We never had this problem because previously people arrived with no knowledge of on-station events, due to communication with Odin supposedly being limited to faxes between command staff and NT higherups that normal workers have no knowledge of.

This is a lot of problems, and it's being implemented badly , as long as inter-station comms are allowed, this is a terrible idea

 

1. They're not light years apart, they're in the same solar system.

2. CENTCOMM can already hear station command comms from Odin which is where a lot of juicy chatter happens. They just don't listen at all/pay attention because they trust the command staff they hired to deal with the situation, and only chime in under special circumstances. Namely, a CCIA player has to be spawned in as a CCIAA to listen, so this only happens to be so when a CCIAA is on duty as their CCIAA character.

3. This is a very big and legitimate problem you've pointed out, I wouldn't mind to see it addressed. This takes the situation from spawning into a situation to having the fore-warning to just not go into it at all, and It would suck to see this discourage new players from entering the station. I think this was a very good point you made. Maybe, since ERT and Command comms are the only ones central is supposed to hear, we could try to find a way to modify the relay mainframe on centcomm to filter out all other comms so that this becomes mechanically enforced instead of roleplayed out?

4. Arrow already proposed a golden solution to this earlier in the thread wherein people would only have minutes to work with in total before they just up and despawn. This hard mechnaical prevention tool would stop people from chairing it up on Odin and not going to work, if they wanted to chair RP on Odin instead of on station they would be forced to take it into chat rooms and PMs. I'm largely more concerned with shuttle operations and shuttle times, namely the prospect of a shuttle going back and forth between the station and CENTCOMM which could theoretically ferry people back. Though, We already have that hole in our sense in that people can arrive on the arrivals shuttle at any time anyways, so it would just be a maintenance of the status quo to add some mechanical prevention for people escape the station on the arrivals shuttle.

[Nanako]

2. CENTCOMM can already hear station command comms from Odin which is where a lot of juicy chatter happens. They just don't listen at all/pay attention because they trust the command staff they hired to deal with the situation, and only chime in under special circumstances. Namely, a CCIA player has to be spawned in as a CCIAA to listen, so this only happens to be so when a CCIAA is on duty as their CCIAA character.

 

I have to disagree here.

The odin is supposed to be a huge, bustling command station, filled with staff at all times. The part of the odin we get to visit is meant to be only a tiny area of it, and its implied it stretches off the map

It's not been an issue until now because CCIA are only there for short periods of time, and because you're all whitelisted people who can be mostly trusted to RP it. In reality though, there would be hundreds of CCIA agents there

trusting the command staff is generally incongruous with evidence. Stuff like the messages asking why the station has been on red alert for a while, or cases where the captain has been arrested on charges of insanity after faxing CC about cult shenanigans, or CC imposing quarantines

And then there's fake announcements. so many problems there. They are completely nonsensical and impractical if central is supposed to be able to hear station comms, they could easily verify or disprove them over the command channel

[Owen]

2. CENTCOMM can already hear station command comms from Odin which is where a lot of juicy chatter happens. They just don't listen at all/pay attention because they trust the command staff they hired to deal with the situation, and only chime in under special circumstances. Namely, a CCIA player has to be spawned in as a CCIAA to listen, so this only happens to be so when a CCIAA is on duty as their CCIAA character.

 

It's not been an issue until now because CCIA are only there for short periods of time, and because you're all whitelisted people who can be mostly trusted to RP it. In reality though, there would be hundreds of CCIA agents there

 

Where exactly did you get this information from?? It is said in the lore that there is at MOST 10 CCIA on the NTCC Odin. Also, it is completely reasonable for communications to be bounced of satellites (believe this is the reasoning given) for Central Command to hear communications. And yes, they can hear it when they want to but, there are regulations saying when the CCIA are allowed to listen in. Anything besides specific approved times we don't hear it or we don't listen and if you have an issue you fax it.

Also, to address people saying that CC just listens to the ramblings of the crew. They literally don't listen unless they are tipped off by something. The reasoning for that is either CC can take things out of context and listening to communications is very unreliable

Edited August 17, 2016 by Guest