[Inactive]Staff Complaint: CakeisOssim

[Nanako]

BYOND Key: NanakoAC

Staff BYOND Key: Cakeisossim

Game ID: bIJtWf

Reason for complaint: Refusing to deal with exploiting

Evidence/logs/etc:

During this round, which was malf AI, the AI (played by Damarik) had itself teleported to the telecomms satellite.

Personally i feel that this is a little sketchy at best - station systems allowing themselves to be controlled from outside the station doesn't make a lot of sense. But i can deal with that.

The problem, however:

 

 

Not only is it on the satellite, but the AI is hidden inbetween walls, in a spot that has no wires and no doorways.

Due to a complete lack of checks on AIs, it can still perform all its functions from this location, but it is also pretty much impervious to attack because it is impossible to find. There is no way for the crew to detect the AI in that location unless they ,metagame knowledge of such an empty space, and even then that's pretty unlikely

I consider this to be an exploit, equivilant to noclipping inside a wall in an FPS game and sniping people from there. It is a blatant misuse of game mechanics, and not intended functionality. Nobody should be able to hide in an unfindable, almost-unreachable spot, and still utilize their full range of abilities to affect the round, while being impervious to retribution or consequences for their actions. We wouldn't tolerate traitors who managed to turn on godmode.

This is a staff complaint because i Ahelped this issue, and cake took it

 

 

As far as i'm aware, there is no means for the crew to deduce this location. The AI could be hiding on any of six different Zlevels and there is no way to triangulate its coordinates.

Additional remarks:

I wish for cake's declaration that this is 'valid' to be overturned, and for Damarik to be punished for exploiting game mechanics to obtain invincibility.

[Garnascus]

DO NOT MAKE A COMPLAINT WHILE A ROUND IS STILL GOING. THIS CONSTITUTES AS IC IN OOC. WAIT UNTIL AFTER THE ROUND!

You know better nanako.

[DatBerry]

firstly, it was deemed valid by all of the staff online at the time, including garnsacus

secondly, IC in OOC, the round is still ongoing.

posting one big picture of where the AI exactly is while the round is still ongoing is just high levels of IC in OOC

[Nanako]

firstly, it was deemed valid by all of the staff online at the time,

Well that's either irrelevant or very relevant, because thats the reason why this is a staff complaint rather than a player complaint against damarik.

I'm sorry for the premature posting, that was my bad.

I don't believe hiding between walls, while still being able to perform aggression against the crew, should be allowed or acceptable.

If a random traitor/vampire/changeling teleports into a wallspace, its fine because they're doing nothing and harming nobody while in there. but an AI can sit in such a place and still doorcrush/shock/vent/sabotage/etc to its core's content.

[CakeIsOssim]

I believe my decision was just, considering it also had the support of a head administrator. Outplaying your opponent is not an exploit. The crew have found AIs on the telecomms satellite before, they did it that round but failed to reach them, and they will continue to do so in the future. If you want that changed, you should be making a suggestion.

[Guest]

The round has now ended, so I will address it.

The AI was caught in his little crawlspace because I was watching a cyborg drag the AI all the way from its core to the teleporter room just about the entire team, getting solid visual data as living proof this was going on. It is VERY time-consuming to construct and reinforce walls.

I PDA the HoS, who apparently went SSD at the most inopportune time. I assume they were dead, though. Captain has a hand tele mishap.

So I rush the teleporter and play EMP footsie with the cyborg. I was too slow getting back and it locks me out. Yinzr arrives just in time when Legatus got blown up remotely because the AI was not paying any attention to their cyborgs.

RD arrives with everyone else, EMPs the AI with 60 uranium and 60 iron combo and totally fucks over the AI, stopping the synthetic-orchestrated madness.

I personally don't see how this is powergaming whatsoever. On any other server it would be acceptable because it is top tier malf AI cleverness. This whole process of moving them silently was also very time-consuming and it was the number one reason I caught the engiborg doing it, because I personally was suspicious about what was going on with the robots (esp. since ERROR-37 was hostage taking at the same time and trying to create a distraction which I saw through), so I went alone to investigate the situation at the telecomms sat.

I was personally establishing a secure position for others to back me up later and support me. I knew where the AI was hiding the whole time but my focus wasn't to outright destroy them yet. Their cyborgs were creating direct issues I could not solve by waiting around.

If I didn't notice, then oh well, it would've been "gg well played" for the AI.

Antags should only be limited on purely destructive actions that garner no interesting interaction in themselves. This? Not really destructive. Hell, the choice of position had its weaknesses because of a lack of an APC to quick charge the area if needed like with what exists in the AI core.

AI ended up being outplayed at the end because I told everyone where the AI was anyway. Majorly because I received this information by IC means, and didn't exploit it because it was released OOC, that fact did not stop me or make me hesitate.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Guest

[Garnascus]

The irony here is the crew knew where the AI was since they watched the borgs on camera hide the AI. Hiding inside the reinforced wall of the telecomms satellite is not and has never been considered an exploit. I see no reason to change it now.

[Damarik]

To be fair, I didn't tell Snoop to hide me in the wall. The plan was to relocate me to TComm. That's as far as it was discussed. Next thing I see (after coming out of Cameras assisting crew with doors and whatnot) is my core in between walls, and Snoop asking if it was cool to wall me in. I said go for it, I didn't have a better hiding spot.

I figure it's mainly a lack of communication between me and Snoop, which -is- in fact my fault as the AI player. But I'm all in favor of the hiding spot as despite all of it, I was still found and EMP'd. Even walls aren't fool-proof.

[Nanako]

I believe my decision was just, considering it also had the support of a head administrator.

Then that absolves you of personal responsibility and passes the buck up the chain. However it does not make it 'just'

 

...they did it that round but failed to reach them, ....

 

I was mistaken, the AI wasn't teleported there, but moved there by a cyborg.

They were found by tracking that cyborg.

Hence, in this case, the AI was found because the exploit was executed incorrectly, i don't believe this makes it any less of an exploit. Teleporting into an enclosed wallspace is still entirely possible, and moving someone to such a place without getting caught is also possible, simply a matter of luck.

I don't believe punishment should be withheld because of luck, or that the method should be called anything but what it is - an exploit of game mechanics - because of poor luck in implemting it.

Hiding between walls while doing stuff makes no logical sense, and i'd argue it's a violation of our prime directive, 'Don't be a dick'.

The AI could have easily been moved to a turret protected, but otherwise obvious location on that satellite, Hiding inside walls is poor sportsmanship

[Nanako]

I see no reason to change it now.

 

The reason I posit is, it's an uncounterable strategy.

If properly implemented (and it only failed here due to a combination of incompetence and bad luck) its an unassailable safe place from which you can still fully control everything.

and metagaming the location only goes so far, there are plenty of other locations to hide on other Zlevels. Like the outposts and derelict. Hiding in other places isn't inherently wrong, if you're setting up a suitable location - ie, a room, to contain the AI

Hiding ina tiny crawlspace between walls is nonsensical and prone to exploiting. The fact that it failed in this case doesn't discount the attempt

[Damarik]

You're going to (by proxy of stating the Prime Directive) call me a dick because something was executed that you couldn't handle? Look, I'm willing to be reasonable about this. It happened. It's over. I explained what happened. I ended up getting screwed over by it anyway, because my Capacitor ran down, and I had no way of defending myself.

To top that off, I never once ordered any of the crew to be killed. Here's the list of what I -did- order, or authorized the borgs to do.

1. Welderbomb various locations.

2. Steal Sec's EMP Weapons.

3. Blow up the O2 tanks in Mining.

4. Move me to TComms.

5. Perform destructive acts around the edges of the station to make it look like an outside attack.

6. Blow lights in random locations (I ended up doing that myself while hacking the APC's)

7. Take the QM hostage.

8. Threaten (and follow through with) blowing the SM if people didn't evac to Departures.

I never ordered anyone killed. I never attempted to kill anyone. I didn't fuck with Atmos. I only messed with the SM as a gimmicky last resort thing. I gave the crew plenty of warning BEFORE I blew the SM. There was no one near it when it went.

I don't see what the problem is here, or why there's an issue here. I didn't ever use my omnipresence or omnipotence to do any real harm to anyone. I gave everyone a fair chance to have at me, once me and the Borgs went loud. Sec knew /EXACTLY/ where I was the entire time.

Tell me again just how I broke the Prime Directive?

[Guest]

I was mistaken, the AI wasn't teleported there, but moved there by a cyborg.

They were found by tracking that cyborg.

 

The AI was teleported using the command teleporter, the wall from cyborg recharging to the bridge teleporter room was broken down to avoid any awkward confrontations in the hallway. They were dragged and then pull-clicked onto another tile, specifically the tile where the teleporter portal was. This is not an exploit, this has been done since forever and nobody has ever had a problem with it until now.

 

Hence, in this case, the AI was found because the exploit was executed incorrectly, i don't believe this makes it any less of an exploit. Teleporting into an enclosed wallspace is still entirely possible, and moving someone to such a place without getting caught is also possible, simply a matter of luck.

They were not pinpoint teleported into an enclosed wallspace. They were moved to the teleporter room, thrown into a portal, then the cyborg followed suit and dragged the AI into a crawlspace to be hidden. I watched the entire thing, and this is the only way to move an AI in an incognito fashion. It was executed just fine, the only issue was that I was watching the cyborgs at the time of it happening.

 

I don't believe punishment should be withheld because of luck, or that the method should be called anything but what it is - an exploit of game mechanics - because of poor luck in implemting it.

 

Again, not an exploit. I also don't believe anyone should be "punished severely" because of how antagonists played the video game.

This is the equivalent of reporting someone for being an "Unskilled Player" in League of Legends.

 

Hiding between walls while doing stuff makes no logical sense, and i'd argue it's a violation of our prime directive, 'Don't be a dick'.

The AI could have easily been moved to a turret protected, but otherwise obvious location on that satellite, Hiding inside walls is poor sportsmanship

 

 

Call the cyber police someone did a bad rp

[Garnascus]

ok but look at the work he has to put to pull it off. It takes time to drag the AI out and hide it in the wall and you have to pray nobody catches you in the hall or is watching the borg on a camera. If you're able to pull it off GG for you. Like, this is a heavy roleplay server but there is also such a thing as being good at the game.

[CakeIsOssim]

If you can't find the AI because it moved, perhaps you should instead focus on capturing the borgs that moved it. That is your counter. Capture them, relaw them, order them to tell you where the AI is. Difficult does not imply impossible.

And while it isn't exactly inapplicable, the rule of being a dick applies mainly to OOC.

[Nanako]

You're going to (by proxy of stating the Prime Directive) call me a dick because something was executed that you couldn't handle?

 

as you've said, it wasnt your choice to be placed there, so i'd blame the borg that did it instead

 

I don't see what the problem is here, or why there's an issue here. I didn't ever use my omnipresence or omnipotence to do any real harm to anyone.

Should we wait until someone does use the unassailable position to murder everyone without repercussions, before dealing with it?

Sec knew /EXACTLY/ where I was the entire time.

only because of luck, someone was monitoring a borg, i don't think its relevant

Most borgs and locations are not monitored most of the time, you got caught by a fluke here.

 

Tell me again just how I broke the Prime Directive?

Wasn't there some doublebracketed OOC in IC chat in the binary channel about this subject during the round? I don't recall all of it, perhaps you could tell us what was discussed

[Nanako]

It takes time to drag the AI out and hide it in the wall and you have to pray nobody catches you in the hall

As delta pointed out, at no point did the AI ever enter a public area. Theres a single-tile wall seperating the cyborg upload from the telecomms teleporter

or is watching the borg on a camera.

This only happened due to a combination of another borg being suspicious enough to get security's attention, and delta being attentive enough to observe borgs on camera at that time

[Chaznoodles]

Not involved in this, but I'd like to mention something, about you saying the AI was unfindable:

The pinpointer can locate a malf AI when Delta is declared.

[incognitojesus]

I see no reason to change it now.

 

The reason I posit is, it's an uncounterable strategy.

If properly implemented (and it only failed here due to a combination of incompetence and bad luck) its an unassailable safe place from which you can still fully control everything.

and metagaming the location only goes so far, there are plenty of other locations to hide on other Zlevels. Like the outposts and derelict. Hiding in other places isn't inherently wrong, if you're setting up a suitable location - ie, a room, to contain the AI

Hiding ina tiny crawlspace between walls is nonsensical and prone to exploiting. The fact that it failed in this case doesn't discount the attempt

Except it wasn't an unassailable safe place, as evidenced by the fact that the malf AI was destroyed. This would have only been an issue (and even then, maybe) if the AI was teleported in the most powergamey way like using a tracking beacon and then just shoving it through the teleporter. But there was actual communication between the synthetics, and because it was done so sloppily, it was stopped. I don't see it as an exploit here, and I'll use your example of an FPS and wallglitching. This would have been an exploit if the AI had found some way to teleport itself off of the z-level and into say, Centcomm or the merc base. That is an unassailable and safe place. However, this AI was clearly within the crew's grasp and I'd say that the situation was done well by all parties included. The AI even attempted to use subterfuge by having a cyborg hold a crew member hostage.

[Snoopy11]

I was the borg Legatus. I was ordered to move the AI, I wasn't really told where other than Tsat. The AI did not order me to place him between walls, to take the time consuming process of taking down a reinforced wall and getting them all cozy inside, I did this as an interpretation of the order to move them to safe a place.

The way we executed the move was not through a wall, but instead just luck, distraction and lots of pulling. The AI pulled fire alarms and locked doors, before I pulled it from the core, dragged it through the HALLWAYS and into the teleporter room whereupon I pushed the AI's core through.

If the crew couldn't find the AI, if we hadn't been so obviously found, the real way of finding the AI would have been to capture the person, myself, who hid them and make them tell you. This can be done through removing the positronic brain from the chasis, or unlinking and resetting me- this has been done before with other Malfs and I was even involved in one of them where we had the brain of the borg tell us where the AI was hidden.

Ultimately an EMP really messed up the AI, and my own fortifications of the Tsat site also gave away our location pretty easily, not to mention the glaringly obvious spot of wall that was darker and made out of a different material than the rest.

[Taintedglory]

I'm just going to say that there is a reason the ai has a power source connected to it and moving it away from that power source into an unpowered spot is dumb and the ai nor it's body's should want to do that. I think an issue like that would constitute as allowing powergaming/metagaming behavior

[Alberyk]

I'm just going to say that there is a reason the ai has a power source connected to it and moving it away from that power source into an unpowered spot is dumb and the ai nor it's body's should want to do that. I think an issue like that would constitute as allowing powergaming/metagaming behavior

 

This place has power still, since it is linked to one of the apcs. Also, there is a malf module that gives power to the AI.

[Skull132]

Telecomms array is infinitely powered.

Unless EMPs or stupidity are involved, the station has very few ways to determine an AI is there. And it requires nearly 0 setup in terms of the infrastructure. The satellite is really not meant to be an AI base, due to the magic SMES that power it.

I will say, though, that there does exist a precedence for it being let pass. A few months ago, when I was still head admin, myself and a few other staff dismissed a parallel case because it was the first time we had seen something like that, and because the round was actually relatively decent. We did, however, agree that this should become punishable if it becomes standard meta. It does seem to fall under exploit of mechanics, due to the magic SMES. Were the SMES normal, like on the engineering output (I wonder why no AIs go there.... Oh right, because it takes actual effort to set up there), then it'd be completely fine. As there's nothing hackey there.

[Snoopy11]

Telecoms is powered by a weird mechanic, however it can be disabled with EMPs as proven lastnight, and it can also be depowered remotely via an RCON console.

[Skull132]

Telecoms is powered by a weird mechanic, however it can be disabled with EMPs as proven lastnight, and it can also be depowered remotely via an RCON console.

 

It's powered by a SMES which has infinite storage. There's nothing weird about it, it's a hack.

And yes, it can still be fucked with, but that wasn't my point. My point was, it's not as risky as setting up your own grid, or even moving around the station. The AI drains a decent lot of power. It is very easy to conduct a move when you have an infinite supply, at max output from 2 SMES, available to you. A lot less riskier.

[Guest]

Skull, do consider that the EMP knocked out the APC's auto-charge breaker which stopped it from being able to take in energy as soon as it was detonated. Given the proximity of the AI to that APC, it was basically helpless and dead. For some strange reason malf AI doesn't properly connect itself to alternative APCs instead of the same one where it enters a loop of attempting to reconnect to, again, the same one over and over.

The AI was actually worse off if its location on the tcommsat was known versus if it was in the AI core itself and everyone knew where it was.